A thought about alchemists and the Mutagenist

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

thing is, early levels, combats don't last that long.

i'd say around 4-5 rounds it's normal
if you throw 2 bombs in two rounds, and do 2 crossbow attack, you've covered. And you didn't just stride+strike for two levels.

During the same time and for the same resource cost, you make 4-6 attacks with a longspear and heal twice. And, of course, you do far more than just stride+strike, which is exactly what your build is doing (bombs are strikes ;) ). Using a longspear as at-will combat weapon instead of a crossbow doesn't change much how to play an Alchemist.

shroudb wrote:

As for them being "ok" at level 3.

For the bomber sure. For the others... not so much.

as a bestial mutagenist for example, you're still doing less damage than a martial with 0 combat options and much less survivability and you're on a clock because you need mutagens to do so. At level 3, even with 16 starting Int, you have now 6 reagents, 4 after removing your mutagens. So 4 consumables, or 1 per battle on average.

So, you trade everything that a martial can do, for that 1 consumable per fight. I wouldn't call this "ok".

Less damage than a martial? 2d8 + 2 + 2 persistent damage. Bombers just do 2 extra splash damage at best, so I don't see why they are supposed to be in far better position.

And at level 3, even with a starting 14 in Intelligence, you have 5-6 reagents, so quite a few bombs before having to go melee.

[LuniasM]

graystone wrote:

your special ability requires 4 hands and 3 bulk to use!

That's not actually supported by the text of the ability.

Chirurgeon wrote:

As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine’s untrained and trained uses.

The text doesn't require you to have any additional tools here. You can roll using your Crafting bonus instead of your Medicine bonus. You don't need any additional tools or kits like you would if you were using the Craft downtime activity, nor do you need the Alchemist's Tools to attempt the check. Furthermore, even if it did require "an appropriate set of tools" as the Craft downtime activity normally does, I'd be extremely skeptical if someone told me the healer's tools don't count. You may be making a Crafting check, but you're still performing uses of the Medicine skill, and so the healer's tools should be perfectly sufficient for the task.

Furthermore, if I wanted to get really pedantic, the Treat Wounds ability has the requirement "You have healer’s tools". It doesn't say "You have healer's tools and two free hands" or "You are holding healer's tools", so technically one could argue that you just need to have them on your person. Not that I'd actually support that reading, since it would be rather absurd to require the player to have tools that they actually don't use at all during the process.

[kaid]

A lot of people seem to be assuming hands being used that are not stated in the use of abilities even though the game is generally VERY specific about hand usage. Things like quick alchemy require that you have an alchemy kit but not that you actually use it just have one on your person. Battlefield medicine is like this as well. The bulk is an issue though as the default healer kit is 1 and alchemist tools are 2. You don't need to be a skittermander to do the ability but you better have a sturdy back.

[graystone]

LuniasM wrote:

graystone wrote:

your special ability requires 4 hands and 3 bulk to use!

That's not actually supported by the text of the ability.

Chirurgeon wrote:

As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine’s untrained and trained uses.

Medicine Trained Actions: each and every one REQUIRES healers kit to use and NOTHING in the alchemist ability allows to to ignore those requirements. Alchemy tools are required for your bonuses and to avoid penalties [expect the "Using shoddy or makeshift tools might cause you to take an item penalty" without using the tool kit[listed under making skill checks page 449)]. You then look at the chart and see each kit requires 2 hands...

So any trained medicine action requires a healer kit and that lists requiring 2 hands. If I don't want to roll without a -2, you need the alchemy tools and those require 2 hands. IMO, if you are unable to "use the item" you don't meet the requirement for having it as it makes little sense to require tools that you never take out of your backpack.

"Hands
This lists how many hands it takes to use the item effectively. Most items that require two hands can be carried in only one hand, but you must spend an Interact action to change your grip in order to use the item." page 287

Alchemist’s tools, hands 2, page 288
Healer’s tools, hands 2, page 288

[Unicore]

If you look at all the skill actions, it is actually pretty consistent for the skill requirement to say that you have the tools not how you use them, picking locks for example. I too thought that the skills would essentially list the number of hands somewhere in side the action, but that doesn’t appear consistently true. All the tools list 2 hands on the equipment chart, and if an action requires you have one, it seems that means you use it as well.

[Joey Cote]

I was looking at the 11th level bombs and just not understanding the design here. Needing an attack roll they basically do 3 dice of damage, do 3 persistent damage, and get a +2 to hit. But an 11th wizard using their electrical cantrip does 5d4 on up to two targets with a reflex save. The damage seems pretty much the same. And the cantrip damage actually goes up far faster then the bomb damage. The bomb's splash damage is pretty insignificant, even with feat that using their int modifier instead of the normal splash damage. At 11th level that is probably only +2 more damage then the base, +3 if the GM is generous and gave the player a +2 int modifying magic item. The bombs do have secondary effects, but only the lightning bomb's causing the target to become flat footed seems very significant.

Nothing about the alchemist makes me even vaguely want to play one. The extracts are basically weak spells and there isn't enough variety. Moderate healers so long as whatever your fighting doesn't have attacks of opportunity or your people aren't weapon and shield fighters. Mutagens .... are not impressive and have drawbacks which I just don't understand the need for. Poisons could be good but as others have said, monster fortitude saves are probably going to be their best save and if you go that route you're going to want to poison your buddy's weapons since they are going to be more likely to hit then you are. And they need to run for multiple rounds to do much.

[Nicodranas]

Unicore wrote:

If you look at all the skill actions, it is actually pretty consistent for the skill requirement to say that you have the tools not how you use them, picking locks for example. I too thought that the skills would essentially list the number of hands somewhere in side the action, but that doesn’t appear consistently true. All the tools list 2 hands on the equipment chart, and if an action requires you have one, it seems that means you use it as well.

Healer’s Tools: This kit of bandages, herbs, and suturing tools is necessary for Medicine checks to Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, or Treat Wounds.

And since the tool requires 2 hands, also the skill action requires two hands.

[Aricks]

Joey Cote wrote:

I was looking at the 11th level bombs and just not understanding the design here. Needing an attack roll they basically do 3 dice of damage, do 3 persistent damage, and get a +2 to hit. But an 11th wizard using their electrical cantrip does 5d4 on up to two targets with a reflex save. The damage seems pretty much the same. And the cantrip damage actually goes up far faster then the bomb damage. The bomb's splash damage is pretty insignificant, even with feat that using their int modifier instead of the normal splash damage. At 11th level that is probably only +2 more damage then the base, +3 if the GM is generous and gave the player a +2 int modifying magic item. The bombs do have secondary effects, but only the lightning bomb's causing the target to become flat footed seems very significant.

Nothing about the alchemist makes me even vaguely want to play one. The extracts are basically weak spells and there isn't enough variety. Moderate healers so long as whatever your fighting doesn't have attacks of opportunity or your people aren't weapon and shield fighters. Mutagens .... are not impressive and have drawbacks which I just don't understand the need for. Poisons could be good but as others have said, monster fortitude saves are probably going to be their best save and if you go that route you're going to want to poison your buddy's weapons since they are going to be more likely to hit then you are. And they need to run for multiple rounds to do much.

It would be nice if we could hear from anyone vaguely official what the class role for the alchemist is supposed to be. Theoretically it seems like the alchemist is a buffer class, with debuffer/ranged damage, healer, and melee damage sub-classes. In practice it seems the alchemist can't really buff for any amount of useful time, and the buffs compete resource wise with your research focus. I liked in pf1 as an alchemist at 4th level I could hand out infusions to the party to help them and then throw bombs to help out.

I kinda like the "research focus gets a tier higher" idea, so the mutagenist not only buffs themself but the party too, the bomber is stronger at range and the focus I can't spell heals better for more action cost.

[Quintessentially Me]

Aricks wrote:

It would be nice if we could hear from anyone vaguely official what the class role for the alchemist is supposed to be. Theoretically it seems like the alchemist is a buffer class, with debuffer/ranged damage, healer, and melee damage sub-classes. In practice it seems the alchemist can't really buff for any amount of useful time, and the buffs compete resource wise with your research focus. I liked in pf1 as an alchemist at 4th level I could hand out infusions to the party to help them and then throw bombs to help out....

I suspect you will have better luck asking the devs about specific design decisions (e.g. why do the mutagens provide the negative modifiers they provide when that also negates much of the survivability a mutagenist would need in combat?) than about class roles.

It appears to me that the intent was for each class to be able to operate in almost any role depending on focus, from melee to ranged, from damage dealing to condition application.

Moreover, if the devs were to weigh in and state what they expected a character to be doing if they are a particular class or build (i.e. role), it would lend social weight to the expectations placed on anyone running such a class/build, and that flies in the face of the build freedom they appear to be striving for.

[Aricks]

Quintessentially Me wrote:

I suspect you will have better luck asking the devs about specific design decisions (e.g. why do the mutagens provide the negative modifiers they provide when that also negates much of the survivability a mutagenist would need in combat?) than about class roles.

It appears to me that the intent was for each class to be able to operate in almost any role depending on focus, from melee to ranged, from damage dealing to condition application.

Moreover, if the devs were to weigh in and state what they expected a character to be doing if they are a particular class or build (i.e. role), it would lend social weight to the expectations placed on anyone running such a class/build, and that flies in the face of the build freedom they appear to be striving for.

Oh, I'm all for flexibility on choosing how to build a character, a fighter with a healing kit, a wizard practicing trap finding, etc. But you also expect a fighter to be good with weapons, a wizard to cast damage and utility spells, that's the kind of class role I meant, since alchemist isn't one of the classic classes that's been around since the 70's.

Edit: class description from the crd:
You lob bombs at your foes, harry your enemies, and support the rest of your party with potent elixirs. At higher levels, your mutagens warp your body into a resilient and powerful weapon.

As it is, if I'm throwing bombs I'm not going to have reagents to buff the party, and mutagens are available at first level and not exactly anything to write home about. Neither are bombs for that matter but that's a whole other thread.

[SuperBidi]

Alchemist is a support class, like Bards in previous editions.
You have a number of nice elixirs to buff the party (even if you need to wait for the middle levels for them to be worth the cost). You also can poison weapons before combat.
You heal quite well using the 1-action familiar trick. Not at low levels, but once you get to level 5 you are a capable healer.
Bottled Lightning is a very good debuff bomb for when you can't easily flank an enemy.

In terms of damage, you're lackluster, but it's quite obvious for a support class. Bombs are honorable in damage, but you can't sustain them during the whole day due to their reagent cost. Going bestial gives you nice melee attacks, not incredible, but at least it doesn't cost you too much reagents.

Alchemist has 2 issues:
- It's bad at low level, because of lack of reagents mostly.
- Many class features are badly written/doesn't work well/are not worth the feat investment.

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

Alchemist is a support class, like Bards in previous editions.

You have a number of nice elixirs to buff the party (even if you need to wait for the middle levels for them to be worth the cost). You also can poison weapons before combat.
You heal quite well using the 1-action familiar trick. Not at low levels, but once you get to level 5 you are a capable healer.
Bottled Lightning is a very good debuff bomb for when you can't easily flank an enemy.

In terms of damage, you're lackluster, but it's quite obvious for a support class. Bombs are honorable in damage, but you can't sustain them during the whole day due to their reagent cost. Going bestial gives you nice melee attacks, not incredible, but at least it doesn't cost you too much reagents.

Alchemist has 2 issues:
- It's bad at low level, because of lack of reagents mostly.
- Many class features are badly written/doesn't work well/are not worth the feat investment.

as written, they are bad even at support.

a support bard can give bigger bonuses/debuffs, faster and more reliably.

the main issue comes from consumables usually being on the weak side for their level + feats actually doing almost 0 but trying to play math fixers.

evey other class gets their math fixers for free as baseline and use their feats to pick up extra abilities, alchemists are stuck with a terrible core (hence why they feel extremely weak at low levels) and have to try to amend that core via feats.

they are the opposite of what pf2 tried to do (remove math fixers and feat taxes)

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

a support bard can give bigger bonuses/debuffs, faster and more reliably.

I would love to get a description of what types of buffs a Bard can give. Because, from a quick reading (I haven't been into details), Bard was looking so lackluster when it comes to buff that I've decided to change class (I love support characters, and am an intensive Bard player in PF1 and 3.5/4.0 editions).

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

shroudb wrote:

a support bard can give bigger bonuses/debuffs, faster and more reliably.

I would love to get a description of what types of buffs a Bard can give. Because, from a quick reading (I haven't been into details), Bard was looking so lackluster when it comes to buff that I've decided to change class (I love support characters, and am an intensive Bard player in PF1 and 3.5/4.0 editions).

from the buffing side of things, you have AoE +1 to attack and damage at will from your starting cantrip (a mutagen will also usually be +1 across all levels to attack, but only for some types of attacks, for 1 person each, and loaded with negatives on top)

they can also pick up inspire competence which amounts, at mid levels, around +3 to skill checks half of the time and +1 the other half (and always +4 at 15+)

Countersong is actually extremely impressive at stopping a massive amount of things in this edition, which is frankly a surpise, seeing as it's mostly useless in all other editions.

when you can reliably give +1-2 to attacks/saves/skills vai heroism, you can substitute your song for +1 to AC, or you can give your actions to others at 1 for 1 with Allegro. Or you can go with Dirge which is quite potent if a battle lasts more than 3-4 rounds (when everything will be immune to intimidation by then)

And all those are the cantrips without feats. Feats either increase your actions (via lingering) or the potency (via Heroism) for a short while each battle

And then you have the best "buffing/debuffing" caster list in the game in their disposal. As an example, at midlevels, a single Synesthesia will give -3 to AC and reflexes and a host of other things even for a save (but only for 1 round on a save). Earlier on they obviously have haste, heroism, slow, fears, hideous laughter, etc

Bards are imo one of the strongest classes atm in the game, and it's not for their "offense" or "defense", it's mainly for their support and for their adaptability and width of options available to them.

[SuperBidi]

I agree with you that Bard is looking like a good buffing/debuffing class. I haven't been that far away when looking at it. The fact that Inspire Courage was no more stacking with Heroism and was having that many limitations made me forget about it and try to get something out of the Alchemist instead.

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

I agree with you that Bard is looking like a good buffing/debuffing class. I haven't been that far away when looking at it. The fact that Inspire Courage was no more stacking with Heroism and was having that many limitations made me forget about it and try to get something out of the Alchemist instead.

yeah they don't stack, but by the point you can reliably apply Heroism to the core targets, you have other options for cantrips available to you.

and even at high levels, there are fights where you just don't *need* to burn a 3rd/6th level spell.

plus, it affects the whole party at once,

even at "+1" it competes with whatever a mutagen gives at any point, since those are also just +1 above what you already have from your permanent items 99% of the time, plus, it affects everyone (unarmed, melee, ranged, caster), while mutagens only have that option for unarmed and ranged

[SuperBidi]

You convinced me for the Bard ;)
The main reason I turned my back on him is the fact that it gets to 9th level caster. I don't like full casters much.

In my opinion, the best mutagens are the skill ones. You can get up to +4 to a variety of skills, it's extremely potent, I don't think there is an equivalent anywhere.
Quicksilver mutagen is close to useless. Bestial Mutagen is much more than a bonus to attack, it also gives you weapons, getting up to 1d10, without taking any of your hands. So you can do your Alchemist's stuff while still being able to strike periodically.

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

You convinced me for the Bard ;)

The main reason I turned my back on him is the fact that it gets to 9th level caster. I don't like full casters much.

In my opinion, the best mutagens are the skill ones. You can get up to +4 to a variety of skills, it's extremely potent, I don't think there is an equivalent anywhere.
Quicksilver mutagen is close to useless. Bestial Mutagen is much more than a bonus to attack, it also gives you weapons, getting up to 1d10, without taking any of your hands. So you can do your Alchemist's stuff while still being able to strike periodically.

by the time you get +4 item bonus to skills, you already can give +4 circumstantial bonus via Inspire competence

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

by the time you get +4 item bonus to skills, you already can give +4 circumstantial bonus via Inspire competence

Inspire competence is not a +4. It's an automatic critical success to Aid Another. At that level, anyone can get an automatic success and very easily a critical success. So it's just a +2/3. And you must be near the target and performing, which is not always possible. So, I don't say it's bad, but that Mutagens get to higher bonuses (even if it doesn't stack with equipment (but skill equipment are quite rare outside your "best" skill).

[shroudb]

SuperBidi wrote:

shroudb wrote:

by the time you get +4 item bonus to skills, you already can give +4 circumstantial bonus via Inspire competence

Inspire competence is not a +4. It's an automatic critical success to Aid Another. At that level, anyone can get an automatic success and very easily a critical success. So it's just a +2/3. And you must be near the target and performing, which is not always possible. So, I don't say it's bad, but that Mutagens get to higher bonuses (even if it doesn't stack with equipment (but skill equipment are quite rare outside your "best" skill).

"anyone" is "anyone" with the same skill they're trying to aid with at Legendary proficiency.

With inspire you are basically "Legendary in all skills for Aid"

and for Important skills that you focus, you already have at least a +2 item bonus from equipment.

so mutagen is more or less, a +2 at those levels.

[Tymin]

I made a human bomber Alchemist that was raised by gnomes. On level 3 he gets a cantrip, and I picked Acid Splash for the damage. I think I just found a way around the whole reagent problem. Honestly, my biggest issue is the only 11 class feats you can pick. I was (and still am) a huge fan of Extra Discovery back in PF1, and would love to see it come back. I had to skip over debiliating bomb completely because there were so many other things I wanted instead. I think my alchemist will do fine, provided I ever get to play. Been spending a lot of time going over my build again and again, tweaking and changing things, moving skills and feats around. I love building characters, but I think this game is lacking in purely general feats (aka feats that only have the "general" tag, like fleet and ancestral paragon does).

[SuperBidi]

shroudb wrote:

"anyone" is "anyone" with the same skill they're trying to aid with at Legendary proficiency.

Thinking more about it, I think you're right for Inspire Competence. Every time I had to use it, I was in a situation where I was unable to aid another (disable device, climbing off a wall, walking on a trunk over the river, helping a comrade make his acrobatics check to avoid AoOs).

Still, from personal experience, it's very hard to use, as you can't be performing whenever you want during an adventure. There are multiple situations where a Mutagen is far easier to use. Well, the level 11 version that lasts a little, because before this one, it's very hard to use it properly.

shroudb wrote:

and for Important skills that you focus, you already have at least a +2 item bonus from equipment.

Yes, but only to 1 or 2 skills.

Silvertongue and Cognative Mutagens have very limited drawbacks. Serene Mutagen has more drawbacks but if you have a full support character, it works wonder on him.
In my opinion, as soon as you have enough reagents to use them effectively and the level 11 to get the 1 hour duration, skill mutagens are quite solid buffs.

[Mellored]

Seems to me they just need an at-will ability, similar to a catnip. Thus...

Mutagen, you have experimented with your own body long enough that you can shift into whatever mutagen you last consumed. As an action you can gain the benifits as if you drank that mutagen. Once you do this, you need to focus for 10 minutes before you can do it again.

Bomber, you create an unstable concoction. It is a bomb that deals 1d4+level damage. If you don't use it, the concoction blows up at the end of your next turn, potentially damaging you. Roll a d6 to determine the damage type.

Churgen, you can give someone you can touch THP equal to your level.

Churgen alt, surgical strike. The next hit against the target deals 1d6+int extra damage.

[Zwordsman]

Also just as a sidenote on the Bard v ALch detail.

Bards are only slightly behind on weapon profiency (Alch's are like 7 for expert? bard s 11..?) but have access to considerably better tools on their short extra list. Whip for instance.
Where as an Alch is basically a "gap filler" they can do most things, nothign super well but they can in fact do most things. But that results in them being a pseudo Martial with extra tools. They really need better profiency and more choices.
Also all versions of the Alch really should get max prof in bombs at least. Since they're "hit or wiff" daily resources, they need more consistancy at higher levels.

heck.. multiclassing to Bard for inspire competence, guidance, and possibly versitile performance is pretty competing.

Ranger to make them actually reliable combat wise.
and my favorite new one Pathfidner Agent for support base (Which would still be better to do as a bard, or most other classes).

Well I stll absolutely love Alchemists.
---

Honestly it would help a lot if the alch got perpetual infusions earlier in life. And a bit extra for the churri and mutagen (Because bomber already gains the abilty to modfify bomb splash)

Then for a bomber, it could become their cantrip. Every round could make someone flat footed (or other debuffs) + a lil damage. Maybe give them an ability to use Quick Alch for infused bombs + strike with them in one action if they wish as an extra addition to Quick Bomber. (With quick alch being limited to once/rd). That would let them apply the debuff in order to try and hit with their second attack as well (Because, In my (limited) experience. I have only hit with a second attack once)

Churri should get spontaneious healing like discovery at lv 1. Heal 5 per Lv, to themselves or another as an action. (Which will scale in some way with the class I assume. )

Mutagen. Either stronger bonus or longer lasting for mutagens. Or perhaps a way to "fast metoblize" the mutagen, so they can eat the extra time period for a stronger bonus in a short time period. Like Bonus circ to hit and damage by burning the rest of the rounds left. (or mins or 10's mins or hrs later in life. Keep the same time period as the item lasts)
------
I also think that the Int to splash should be a class feature over time. Lv 5 they get Int instead of splash. lv 11 they get base +int. Most of the time, I don't care about those feats. The extra 3-5 damage doesn't feel super worth it, as its mostly going after Elemental Weakness on a miss situation. What those two feat compete with---multiclassing and several of the alch feats-- just don't compete well. I'd rather have much more tools than 2-4 extra damage per target.

[shroudb]

The main issues i have with the "int to damage" feats, are that:

a)it really isn't "into to damage" until you get BOTH feats, getting 1 feat to get just 2 points of damage is terrible

b)it's a pure math fixer that adds nothing else: "if you spent 2 feats you get to add your stat to damage"

That's 10000000% the thing that PF2 said they wanted to remove.

I have no issue if there's something like a math fixer that also adds a nice, interesting feature but those feats do nothing of the sort.

As a direct example:

Smite.

Smite exists as a "math fixer" for offensive Champions. A way to increase the damage of an otherwise defensive class.

But aside from the "+4/6 to damage" it also has this nice thematic ability that synergises with their whole defender role, of refreshing itself when they are ignoring you.

The alchemist math fixers offer nothing of the sort:
"your class abilities use class DC" 0 flavor, pure math fixer
"your Quick alchemy last long enough for you to actually use Double brew/alchemical Alacrity BASE features" Again, 0 flavor, 0 utility, just pure math fixer
"your splash damage increases by 2" plus "your splash damage increases by 1-4" again, pure math fixer

It really feels like i'm reading a PF1 Class picking up Combat Expertise, Point blank shot, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization rather than a PF2 class picking up abilities.

[Mellored]

Zwordsman wrote:

Honestly it would help a lot if the alch got perpetual infusions earlier in life.

Probably the easiest.

Considering bombs are more or less in line with cantrip damage, alchemist should be able to use bombs like cantrips.

So...

Level 3: Persistent Infusion (lesser)
Levle 7: Persistent Infusion (moderate)
Level 11: Persistent Infusion (greater)
Level 17: Persistent Infusion (Major)