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Would Wrath of the Righteous actually benefit from process of being converted to Pathfinder 2nd Edition?
* - It would force a complete rebalancing of treasure - a good thing in this AP.
* - It would eliminate the whole "Mythic" nonsense.
What do people think?
No.
It was written for Mythic Adventures, which is a ruleset that provided epic gameplay for GMs that didn't misread the rules.
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Yes, for the reasons you listed. Primarily the mythic part.
Without some sort of extra mechanic to make the PCs feel special and heroic (mythic even) it wouldn't even make sense. Especially fighting a demon lord and four balors at once. With the systems tighter math and less room for cheesy optimization, that's either a Deus Ex or a TPK.
That said, I'd love to see the AP rewritten in a way that allows it to be played without completely falling apart mechanically.
Disclaimer: I'm still skeptical about 2E.
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Essentially you would need the PCs to each possess some sort of Artifact in order to be able to stand their ground against the truly potent foes out there... and even then you risk enemies nuking the PCs by a couple lucky critical hits.
Given we don't have rules on Artifacts just yet? Well, that's problematic.
Besides, I have a feeling we'll be getting "Mythic Lite" for PF2, probably something along the lines of post-level 20 play, probably in the Gamemaster's Guide.
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Essentially you would need the PCs to each possess some sort of Artifact in order to be able to stand their ground against the truly potent foes out there... and even then you risk enemies nuking the PCs by a couple lucky critical hits.
Why? Remember that you are also rebalancing the monsters.
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Well Deskari is level 29 :P So unless you nerf him to be as weak as Treerazer... Who is already impossible to beat for four level 20 characters in fair fight...
But yeah, it wouldn't really benefit from conversion until 2e version of mythic exists assuming 2e version of mythic works better mathwise than 1e did.
I came to this thread to see what people were saying about running this AP in second ed.
I know it'll likely be years before we get any sort of Epic or Mythic rules for PF2.
With the final fight being a CR 29, I wonder about a quick and dirty post-20 progression, just for this campaign.
Progression would still go up with level for proficiencies. Add a 5th tier (mythic or epic) that's +10.
Give players choices every odd level they can choose one Save to upgrade. And make a list of options at even levels they can choose from.
I bet it could be done to make the demon fights memorable.
I don't think there are stats for CR 29 yet, though? So, maybe a CR 24 or 25 could work fine.
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Between this thread and the Other One I was also looking to see what has been said about a 2E converted WotR. I'm a little disappointed with what I have found. Much more "can't be done" than "here's some ideas." Though I admit there may be other threads I am just not finding with my search-fu.
If its possible for a GM to overcome the "rocket tag" inherent with the 1E rules, especially with the addition of mythic rules, why would it be any different for a GM to covert WotR to 2E and eliminate the mythic rules? Seems like inconsistency.
I feel I am a competent, if not very experienced GM having run dozens of campaigns since the early 80's. So what is it about this AP that cannot be overcome with a little forethought and prep? I have skimmed it a bit, but not read in detail. The 2E rules seem to support 21+ level play without much tweaking since most of the level-based increases are defined and occur at regular intervals which can continue beyond level 20. Perhaps we are lacking truly "epic" feats and there isn't a proficiency level beyond legendary, but I don't see that as absolutely necessary. If necessary it wouldn't be too difficult, using the existing magic rules, to create artifacts.
So, I guess my question is, what is it about the path that makes it unconvertable, with or without mythic rules?
Okay. The question is, how can you create 2nd edition Mythic Rules?
One aspect would be Extra Actions. If a Mythic Ability allows the character to (once a turn) Act with an extra Action then that increases the power of the character. That in and of itself is a significant boost to the power of those characters. '
Another thing? Mythic could be enacted similar to a Prestige Class - but it doesn't use up any of the existing feats (or is built under a new system of Feats rather that are Mythic-specific).
Finally? Start simple. You might wait to see what the Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous computer game comes up with for Mythic and then consider building Mythic along similar lines.
Alternatively? Artifacts can be used to boost the power of the characters. But seeing my players are not interested in playing Pathfinder 2, or Mythic, for now it's just a thought experiment for me.
Here's manbearscientist's mythic level doc.
It's meant for levels 20+... but you can easily just drag them down and hand them out as you level.
Okay. The question is, how can you create 2nd edition Mythic Rules?
Is it?
Or would the story work better if Mythic was purged from the AP?
* - Several encounters have to be rethought ... but that has to happen anyway since you need to rebuild using the tables in the 2nd Ed Game Mastery Guide.
* - Magic items need scaled back, because too many were handed out in the original version ... but again, the conversion already requires replacing most of the treasure.
So the only serious conversion issue is the CR of the Demon Lords in the later books.
would the story work better if Mythic was purged from the AP?That's what I want out of a conversion. Its an unnecessary complication. Eliminate mythic and readjust the encounters
There is a however.
... the only serious conversion issue is the CR of the Demon Lords in the later books.
Many have a problem with demigod level demon lords being CR 25 or less.
More immediately, however, is the "Areelu’s Vengeance" encounter (The Worldwound Incursion, p53). The PCs get massive bonuses, but I don't know enough about PF2 to know if the encounter would still work.
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To be fair, in a home campaign it really doesn't matter what many, including James Jacobs, thinks. If the GM decides to reduce a demigod level demon lord below CR25, its their business and I assume they have their reasons. Its not up to me to judge. Remember the designers/developers have to write the adventures to meet the standard application of the game rules. In this case we are talking about converting an adventure to a new game system. Some rules assumptions are going to be broken.
Rather than cap at level 20 with 10 mythic tier, perhaps the PCs could be extended to level 25 (no mythic) and still be able to handle converted challenges in to level 29/30. The final battle being APL+4 (25 vs 29) seems like it would be perfectly appropriate as the final boss fight. Though, admittedly, leveling 24 times over the course of six books is a lot. I wouldn't want to do it micromanaging XP rewards, but since I don't do that and just level the group at opportune times, its doable.
More immediately, however, is the "Areelu’s Vengeance" encounter (The Worldwound Incursion, p53). The PCs get massive bonuses, but I don't know enough about PF2 to know if the encounter would still work.
A quick look at that encounter and I think you could overcome the need for a lot of PC boosts. At that point the PCs are either level 5 or 6 and the enemies are level 6. So either APL+0 or +1. If you just make the enemy count the same as the PCs (one for one) it should be fine. Challenging but doable.
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I know personally I wouldn't be interested in a non-mythic version of the AP. The main draw for me are all the fun mythic abilities immortality, shapeshifting, travel between stars, certain mythic spells. Take that away and its just a generic demon war which is of no interest to me. There are other AP's like Jade Reagent that have far more interesting themes especially if you start altering them to play up what makes them special.
The mythic allows you a chance to feel truly special and powerful which may not be for you which is fine. Dont take that option away from others because you personally don't like it though. Wrath with no mythic is like skull and shackles with no ocean combat or kingmaker with no kingdom building.
The specific mechanics may need adjustment to work better but remaking the AP without them takes away what makes that AP special and unique and removes options from other peoples play forcing them to play your way even if they don't like that way or want to try soemthing different from their usual.
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Guess I’ll mark you name off my list of potential players. ;-) Each to their own. If you like mythic and want to tackle the complexity of adapting it to 2E, you are welcome to. Not everyone is.
To me, Mythic is nothing more than a rules variant mechanic like DR for armor, spell points, etc. The game does not have to be defined by them. The story/narrative is the star, IMO. And if there is a certain aspect of mythic that shows to be important to the campaign, I/we can always adapt that specific component without the having to do all the rest.
I guess my point is, for my own campaign the decision to drop the mythic rules has already been decided. What I am interested in is if anyone has adapted the AP to 2E without Mythic and if so, what was their experience.
I kind of love the idea of this AP in mythic, but I'd agree it'd be a lot of work.
Ironically, it'd probably still be less work to homebrew a mythic system and then convert the AP than make mythic work in 1e, short of using Legendary Games fixes (if they're good, I have no idea).
One option, for those who feel the path needs more to feel "mythic".... Give everyone a free achetype, and make up an archetype for each mythic path.
These 5 Tier 1 items are now Level 2 feats, that can only fit in the free slots. Those 8 tier 2 items are now level 4 feats. 10 Tiers? 10 Archetype feat slots.
Want to do less work? Make everyone dual classed, or free archetype. NOTE: I use low tier mythics as additions for my home game monsters, but have NOT read/run the path, nor do I see myself playing or running it outside the PC game anytime in the next decade.
The universal T1 feats that are +20 for a stat? Treat one check as one tier higher success. Got a crit anyway? Go nuts on the description on how perfect the action was.
I think PCs with the dual class variant and the free archetype variant would probably be fine to run this AP, as long as you also tried to keep the treasure rewards at a level about 2x or more what is typical for PF2. The only trick of it really would be figuring out how to let that happen in game when it is supposed to happen, instead of at level 1
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Essentially you would need the PCs to each possess some sort of Artifact in order to be able to stand their ground against the truly potent foes out there... and even then you risk enemies nuking the PCs by a couple lucky critical hits.Why? Remember that you are also rebalancing the monsters.
This is exactly correct. Which is entirely fine, too.
There is a practical problem when discussing WotR with a significant segment of gamers that the AP inherently appeals to. Put simply, they are power gamers who enjoy very high level play. Reducing or eliminating that aspect of the AP is anathema to their preferred approach to it - so they don't even consider it. It's a disconnect in these discussions and it happens just about everywhere you attempt to have that discussion, too.
Which is okay, as people are allowed to like different things. The insistence that Mythic for PF1 was great and didn't need a complete re-write to deal with balance issues is ... well... that's not an objectively rational point of view.
People like what they like and some don't want to have any other discussion.
Which is a shame, as WotR is actually, story wise, one of Paizo's very best APs. James Jacobs is on his game with WotR. It's simply that it was built on top of Mythic, which was a rules set that never got play-tested and it was broken on release; which made WotR broken on release, too.
I would like to be more optimistic about similar efforts in next years War of the Immortals AP and new stab at Mythic for PF2. Sadly, I'm not sanguine about it.
I AM optimistic that my conversion of WotR to normal PF2 rules will work out just fine though!
Which is a shame, as WotR is actually, story wise, one of Paizo's very best APs. James Jacobs is on his game with WotR. It's simply that it was built on top of Mythic, which was a rules set that never got play-tested and it was broken on release; which made WotR broken on release, too.
That's the really messed up thing about this AP. From a writing standpoint, it's amazingly good.
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Mythic 1E *did* have a playtest.
The Mythic monsters did not, and they were utter weaklings compared to any optimized PC. And the result was awful.
Bottom Line: WotR, converted to PF2 with Mythic stripped out is an excellent adventure path.