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Yeah, it's been mentioned few places that many of the Goblins of Isger were sort of shocked out of being quite as unpleasant by the Goblinblood Wars, and have recently been being helpful against the forces of the Whispering Tyrant. That buys some tolerance. Absalom has also explicitly become more accepting of goblins recently.
And many other places never really had a thing about goblins. People in Katapesh never cared, for example.
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There's a pretty long response by one of the developers in the other "Why Aren't Goblins Kill on Sight" post that popped up a while back. Goblins have long had exceptions to the "Chaotic Stupid" role that they fell into.
Over nearly a decade of PF1 Lore they've been slowly integrating into society going from at worst being a minor nuisance to at best being accepted members of the Pathfinder Society. This came from the most recent major lore event of the Isger Goblins brave sacrifice.
The very first published nonevil goblin in Golarion appeared in Dark Markets: A Guide to Katapesh in the form of Krebble-Jeggle, a CN goblin who ran his own casino.
The second nonevil goblin appeared in our very first adventure path for the Pathfinder rules set: Jinkoo, the Hell Knight sewer goblin, LN defender of Hell Knight basements and blower of loud horns.
Since that time goblins have had a diverse and checkered history with the people of Golarion, but there's some key turning points that helped further integrate them into society:
The Frostfur goblins of Irrisen became wards of the Pathfinder Society about 7 years ago and some of them are now functioning members of the organization, with many more who consider themselves to be Pathfinders despite not having been formally accepted.
The Dragonskull tribe of Iobaria were "adopted" by the Farheavens, a clan of Sarkorians currently working to reclaim their former home in what was once the Worldwound. Experts in navigating burns, the Dragonskull goblins have found that their skills make them excellent scouts and earn them some prestige amongst the other ancestries. Several Dragonskull members also accompanied Pathfinder agents for a time, and their association with the organization opened a few doors for them in places where the Society is held in high regard.
The Mudchewers of Magnimar, a city that has long shrugged and accepted that the goblins occupying its sewers are less dangerous than the things they keep out, were rescued by a group of adventurers from a parasitic monster and have had nearly a decade of slow integration into society.
Swinging back down to Katapesh, the goblin Yigrig Moneymaker and his extended "family" of freed goblin slaves (read more about the atrocious practice of enslaving goblins in Dark Markets: A Guide to Katapesh and comics from our friends at IDW written by the fine folks here at Paizo) has long been a member of Katapeshi society but recently made connections with the wider world when he helped the Pathfinder Society root out a traitor from within their own ranks.
And perhaps most notably, the Crookedtoes tribe of Isger earned themselves a home in Absalom, the City at the Center of the World itself, when they allied with the last remaining Knights of Lastwall to fight their way through Tar-Baphon's undead hordes.
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Here's the longer thread where we already had this conversation:
What in world sea change took place to move Goblins from “Kill on sight” to viable PCs?
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Gnolls are entirely accepted in Katapesh (the area they are most common in), while the Orcs of the Mwangi Expanse are fairly friendly and well liked by their human neighbors.
The Orcs of Belkzen are being slightly less awful recently as well, if only because they need allies and the Whispering Tyrant is a threat to them as much as he is to everyone else.
i'm more or less just upset that this happened to goblins and not kobolds. :/
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i thank you for your answers
i have read Michael Sayre post.i can see the crooked toes gaining fame and recongnition after what they have done ( and maybe gaining the benefit of the doubt for other goblins...i really need to play that ap to understand what happened :)) but the other exemples seems like exceptional and very local case or individuals
all that should work for orcs or gnolls...they have been there forever like goblins surely there are tribes that get along with "civilised" people yes they are still seen as menace
worldwide recongnition deserve better than that
Arkhayne
Sometimes, all anyone needs is a chance. And these things built up to the Pathfinder Society and by extension Absalom giving them a fair shot. Eventually this will lead to them being accepted across the Inner Sea Region as well as Half-Orcs are.
i'm more or less just upset that this happened to goblins and not kobolds. :/
Kobolds will hopefully have their shot too. Honestly, once Goblins have a firm standing I can easily see them making a path for other monstrous races to come in and make a name for themselves.
Kobolds are going to be in one of the next books coming up too, I think it was the Advanced Player's Guide coming in January?
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The real question is why so many of the other monstrous races didn't get the same in-setting treatment?
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The real question is why so many of the other monstrous races didn't get the same in-setting treatment?
Plenty of other monstrous races are coming into the game as playable ancestries with the Lost Omen World Guide and Advanced Players Guide. We'll probably get many more too!
Goblins are just on the forefront of that change right now. It's a combination of the recent uptick of Goblin Adventurers in the Pathfinder Society and the fact that Goblins are somewhat iconic to Paizo.
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The real question is why so many of the other monstrous races didn't get the same in-setting treatment?
We haven't seen the World Guide. Most goblins are probably still closer to the wild and dangerous foes of PF1, meanwhile mentions of Belkzen and Gnolls in Katapesh DO give them a similar in game treatment. While lots of those races get ancestries for players in the Lost Omen's Character guide and the APG. Goblins just got the treatment MORE! As an ancestry that is very thematic and popular for Paizo. Hence Core book.
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I know it’s not exactly relevant to canon storyline, but I wanted to share what happened with my gaming group
For the play test, one of my PCs made a goblin named Tucker for Chapter 1: The Lost Star and he had a background about how he was trying to redeem the goblins in the adventure and his greater goal of integrating the goblins that live in the sewers of Magnimar with the general populace.
He died in the final battle of the adventure but even in his death he saved some of the goblins. So, Tucker became a martyr. An inspiration to all goblins to show that they can be helpful members of society, and an example to nongoblins that his race isn’t irredeemable
Now, those goblins that have risen and become members of civilization refer to themselves as “Tuckers”
And THATS how we “explained” goblins being a core race in 2e
Gnolls are entirely accepted in Katapesh (the area they are most common in), while the Orcs of the Mwangi Expanse are fairly friendly and well liked by their human neighbors.
The Orcs of Belkzen are being slightly less awful recently as well, if only because they need allies and the Whispering Tyrant is a threat to them as much as he is to everyone else.
Belkzen is also starting to unify under a single banner for the first time in ages (again, as a response to the Whispering Tyrant). The particular leader who rose up is an old dude who's been described as unusually pragmatic for a Belkzen orc so things seem to be looking up for recognition of the Hold as a legitimate nation and not just a lingering threat.
I'm very interested to see how things develop there.
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The way I see it is something like this:
Goblins, on average, are the same pests they have always been. Good-aligned goblins are meaningfully less common than good-aligned humans or elves.
However, a combination of goblin personality, the sheer number of goblins out there, and recent events have resulted in an unusual number of goblins seeking the life of an adventurer.
As a result, goblin adventurers are not meaningfully less common than adventurers of other races (adventurers on the whole being an uncommon profession in the first place).
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We be goblins, we be goblins 2, We before goblins.... and for those that play PFS look at season 10. Aww we just want to be friends and neighbors.
And "We Be Heroes?", this year's free RPG day adventure using playtest rules and a different set of goblins from the We Be Goblins adventures.
Of course, you do realize where the phrase "We Be Goblins" comes from, don't you? It's part of the original goblin song in Rise of the Runelords. The entire line is "We be goblins, you be food". So... not exactly friendly.
Long live the goblinmander!
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i'm more or less just upset that this happened to goblins and not kobolds. :/Kobolds are one of the ancestries being added in the Advanced Player's Guide.
That last one will be a 256-page hardcover with four new classes (Investigator, Oracle, Swashbuckler, and Witch), ten ancestries and heritages (Aasimar, Catfolk, Changeling, Dhampir, Duskwalker, Kobold, Orc, Ratfolk, Tengu, and Tiefling), and tons of archetypes, general feats, spells, and magic items.
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i'm more or less just upset that this happened to goblins and not kobolds. :/Kobolds are one of the ancestries being added in the Advanced Player's Guide.That last one will be a 256-page hardcover with four new classes (Investigator, Oracle, Swashbuckler, and Witch), ten ancestries and heritages (Aasimar, Catfolk, Changeling, Dhampir, Duskwalker, Kobold, Orc, Ratfolk, Tengu, and Tiefling), and tons of archetypes, general feats, spells, and magic items.
Where is summary for Advanced Player's Guide? I can't find it myself even with google
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I mean it's super weird to insist that provincials would have an issue with a goblin who is a hero, but would not bat an eye at a Dhampir, Grippli, Catfolk, Ratfolk, Iruxi, Leshy, Skinwalker, Triaxian, Changeling, Android, Gathlain, Wayang, Wyvaran, Nagaji, Tengu, Wyrwood, etc. hero.
Most of what can make the latter work is "for the most part, people are going to mind their own business and generally understand folks is folks", so I don't know why we can't extend that a little further.
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In one of the early Pathfinder comics (I cannot remember which issue) there was a one-shot story about a wizard in Korvosa who conducted experiments on goblins and created a highly intelligent strain of them. The goblins ended up escaping the lab and began integrating into upper echelons of Korvosa, wearing top hats and monocles, etc.
Maybe some of them moved to other cities and integrated into the gentry there, also.
It’s highly probable that a goblin PC might be one of these or their descendants, particularly if you made a goblin wizard or alchemist.
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I mean it's super weird to insist that provincials would have an issue with a goblin who is a hero, but would not bat an eye at a Dhampir, Grippli, Catfolk, Ratfolk, Iruxi, Leshy, Skinwalker, Triaxian, Changeling, Android, Gathlain, Wayang, Wyvaran, Nagaji, Tengu, Wyrwood, etc. hero.
Most of what can make the latter work is "for the most part, people are going to mind their own business and generally understand folks is folks", so I don't know why we can't extend that a little further.
How many of those have a reputation as a horrid gremlin with only enough brain to start fires?
Like, I'm all for more greenskins as readily accepted player options and I love Azeroth's goblins to death but Paizo seriously needs to dig themselves out of a hole on this one; tiny blurbs in splat books that have appeared every once and a while doesn't erase a presentation and understanding by the community of the goblins as being comedic villain monsters. Paizo's fully responsible for the confusion as to why their goblins are suddenly viable heroic characters because they've repeatedly portrayed them as raccoons with silly names.
Paizo's goblins are by design not to be taken seriously as heroes because they were made to be a comedic brand of chaotic evil. If they want to change that perception it'll take a lot more work than to just pretend that that perception isn't based in observable fact.
Maybe not fires but how much leeway do you think your average person gives when they hear a half vampire has moved into town?
How many of those have a reputation as a horrid gremlin with only enough brain to start fires?
Not much. Dhampir are often excluded from campaigns or given the "not trusted by the townsfolk" tag for this exact reason; if I recall correctly the Carrion Crown player's guide has a note that Dhampirs aren't appropriate player characters in that campaign because it'll be difficult for them to fit in with the suspicious Ustalav villagers.
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i'm more or less just upset that this happened to goblins and not kobolds. :/Kobolds are one of the ancestries being added in the Advanced Player's Guide.That last one will be a 256-page hardcover with four new classes (Investigator, Oracle, Swashbuckler, and Witch), ten ancestries and heritages (Aasimar, Catfolk, Changeling, Dhampir, Duskwalker, Kobold, Orc, Ratfolk, Tengu, and Tiefling), and tons of archetypes, general feats, spells, and magic items.
Only 256 pages!?!?!
We need more than that!
Hefting these books is our exercise.
In one of the early Pathfinder comics (I cannot remember which issue) there was a one-shot story about a wizard in Korvosa who conducted experiments on goblins and created a highly intelligent strain of them. The goblins ended up escaping the lab and began integrating into upper echelons of Korvosa, wearing top hats and monocles, etc.
Maybe some of them moved to other cities and integrated into the gentry there, also.
It’s highly probable that a goblin PC might be one of these or their descendants, particularly if you made a goblin wizard or alchemist.
Are you sure this wasn't a parody of Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH?
i'm more or less just upset that this happened to goblins and not kobolds. :/Kobolds are one of the ancestries being added in the Advanced Player's Guide.That last one will be a 256-page hardcover with four new classes (Investigator, Oracle, Swashbuckler, and Witch), ten ancestries and heritages (Aasimar, Catfolk, Changeling, Dhampir, Duskwalker, Kobold, Orc, Ratfolk, Tengu, and Tiefling), and tons of archetypes, general feats, spells, and magic items.
listen, i get you, but goblin before my main hommie? no good
for people, unaware this is a joke
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Maybe not fires but how much leeway do you think your average person gives when they hear a half vampire has moved into town.
How many of those have a reputation as a horrid gremlin with only enough brain to start fires?
None. But Golarion has pretty consistently come across as human centric and actively racist. Halflings are mostly slaves or indentured servants, elves and gnomes get the stink eye, dwarves barely exist, and even several human ethnicities are actively discriminated against.
Outside those bounds, except in a few cities with poor reputation (like Magnimar) anything else seems fair game for outright killing, with few to no questions asked.
How many of those have a reputation as a horrid gremlin with only enough brain to start fires?
I mean the long and short of it is that PF1 had a lot of opportunities to play something where random villagers probably didn't even know what that thing is. A certain number of people are going to react with revulsion when a new and unfamiliar kind of thing wanders into their home town.
Like no one in this mountain hamlet has probably ever heard of a Cecalia, and no one most places has seen an Astomoi, Androids are unheard of out of Numeria, etc.... nonetheless we made it work with minimal friction because as a GM your job involves not-hassling people for whatever they happen to have chosen.
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None. But Golarion has pretty consistently come across as human centric and actively racist. Halflings are mostly slaves or indentured servants, elves and gnomes get the stink eye, dwarves barely exist, and even several human ethnicities are actively discriminated against.Outside those bounds, except in a few cities with poor reputation (like Magnimar) anything else seems fair game for outright killing, with few to no questions asked.
I don't get that from the text at all. Most major cities have large non human populations, even if the majority are human. The "other" population in most city stat blocks is at least 1-2 percent. Think about the number of blondes you know. That's how many of those strange and non-core races you see in most cities.
I would hardly call that "fair game for outright killing"
As to the racism, that is also largely geographically based. Sure halflings get the short end in Chelliax dominated regions, but I've never heard of something similar with elves or dwarves beyond extreme regional variations.
Elves specifically drop all half-elves in a ghetto they can't leave except to emigrate out of the country.
I'm not sure what text you're referring to on the rest. I was thinking of novels, particularly by Merciel and Gross. They open with attempted or outright murder of non- humans, and no one but other non humans or Paladins care very much. It's not rare in others either. Reapers Eye has a knight exiled and wanted for *not* murdering hell spawn, goblins are rarely worth anyone but kicking, and Varisians (which is too say Romani) and Shoanti are treated poorly all over the place.
Even the protagonists of the novels are usually casually racist, and that's usually portrayed as a step up from the countries they come from.
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None. But Golarion has pretty consistently come across as human centric and actively racist. Halflings are mostly slaves or indentured servants, elves and gnomes get the stink eye, dwarves barely exist, and even several human ethnicities are actively discriminated against.
Outside those bounds, except in a few cities with poor reputation (like Magnimar) anything else seems fair game for outright killing, with few to no questions asked.
This is really not true most places in the setting. There are certainly places where it is but they're in a distinct minority.
Elves specifically drop all half-elves in a ghetto they can't leave except to emigrate out of the country.
Kyonin has the dubious distinction of being the only ostensibly Good-aligned nation where such things occur.
I'm not sure what text you're referring to on the rest. I was thinking of novels, particularly by Merciel and Gross. They open with attempted or outright murder of non- humans, and no one but other non humans or Paladins care very much. It's not rare in others either. Reapers Eye has a knight exiled and wanted for *not* murdering hell spawn, goblins are rarely worth anyone but kicking, and Varisians (which is too say Romani) and Shoanti are treated poorly all over the place.
Uh...that's mostly very specifically in Cheliax, Nidal, and maybe Ustalav and Mendev (Varisia has a lot of inter-human prejudices with Varisians and Shoanti and the like...but mostly only due to ties with Cheliax). All of those are straight up the most racist parts of the setting by a lot. Acting like Cheliax's attitudes towards such things are normal and accepted everywhere is pretty factually and obviously incorrect.
Even the protagonists of the novels are usually casually racist, and that's usually portrayed as a step up from the countries they come from.
Again, this is pretty much restricted to Cheliax and Nidal. Y'know, two of the most Evil nations in the region.
Reading the novels by Tim Pratt or Chris A. Jackson gives you some protagonists from Andoran and Katapesh, who are an order of magnitude or three less inclined to this sort of thing.
Heck, Chris A. Jackson's series has the main couple be a human and a naga. Now they come in for some weird looks, but nothing compared to what you're talking about.