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After doing a bit of back and forth in a thread about Alchemists and their roles, I discovered a very weird and somewhat alarming issue with the drawback to the Quicksilver Mutagen.
QUICKSILVER MUTAGEN ITEM 1+
ALCHEMICAL CONSUMABLE ELIXIR MUTAGEN POLYMORPH
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Activate [one-action] Interact
Your features become thin and angular. You become swifter and nimbler, but your body also becomes fragile.
Benefit You gain an item bonus to Acrobatics checks, Stealth checks, Thievery checks, Reflex saves, and ranged attack rolls, and you gain the listed status bonus to your Speed.
Drawback You take damage equal to twice your level; you can’t recover Hit Points lost in this way by any means while the mutagen lasts. You take a –2 penalty to Fortitude saves.
Type lesser; Level 1; Price 4 gp
The bonus to rolls is +1, the bonus to Speed is +5 feet, and the duration is 1 minute.
Type moderate; Level 3; Price 12 gp
The bonus to rolls is +2, the bonus to Speed is +10 feet, and the duration is 10 minutes.
Type greater; Level 11; Price 300 gp
The bonus to rolls is +3, the bonus to Speed is +15 feet, and the duration is 1 hour.
Type major; Level 17; Price 3,000 gp
The drawback causes you to take 2 x your level damage that you can't heal until after the duration of the mutagen passes. At early levels this will be negligible but very quickly it starts to trend towards 1/5th of your health and stays that way all the way up to 20th level.
Take a d8 racial hit die character with a +2 modifier to constitution.
Level Hp Damage
1 18 2 1/9th total hp
2 28 4 1/6th total hp
3 38 6 1/6th total hp rounded up
4 48 8 1/6th total hp rounded up
5 58 10 1/6th total hp rounded up
6 68 12 1/6th total hp rounded up
7 78 14 1/6th total hp rounded up
8 88 16 1/6th total hp rounded up
9 98 18 1/6th total hp rounded up
10 108 20 1/6th total hp rounded up
The later numbers are actually rounded up to 1/5th and they trend closely to the same with a d10 racial hit die character with a +2 to con. With this edition being so mobile it worries me that any archer taking this will be stuck going into multiple battles with this drawback and no way to end a Mutagen early. It's also oddly the only Mutagen that gives hp damage.
Edit: I forgot to add in the con bonus so the numbers adjusted a bit to be a little under 1/5th hp.
It's basically "Potion of Glass Cannon", yeah. I think that's probably on purpose; it encourages archers to play like they were already going to play, and it discourages melee characters from taking it.
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I think your numbers are off. The hp should be increasing by at least 10 per level for certain; in addition, as Con is probably a secondary stat for a mutagenist, a Con 18 by 10th level is pretty likely, I think.
You're totally right. I forgot to add in the con bonus. I just edited the op. With that it stays consistently a little under 1/5th of your hp. Con 18 may be a necessity to offset the hp and fort penalty.
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Basically it is the glass cannon potion. I think for people intending to use it for their career they probably wind up using their level boosts to pump con which does a pretty good job of offsetting the penalty.
For people like rangers it also is still useful if they are working to maintain range and use their bows.
Still it is a noticable drawback and one that you have to be careful with and it means it is something you probably don't use in encounters that you are facing a lot of ranged attackers.
Yeah Quicksilver makes the Alchemist change from a d8 hp class to a d6 for the duration.
Not really a "glass CANNON"
I mean it's just a +1 to attacks over a normal weapon that a ranged attacker will have at the respective level for basically around 15-20% hp loss and -2 Fort.
A +1 to attack is nice, but considering that's usually a level 1 buff with no downsides, it feels like mutagens in their current state really shouldn't have a negative.
That is assuming you are giving it to the person with an on-level weapon (who probably does still appreciate that +1).
You have to remember that you can also pass it out to the entire party and turn everyone into competent ranged attackers if for some reason you need to (hunting a dragon?).
Not really a "glass CANNON"
I mean it's just a +1 to attacks over a normal weapon that a ranged attacker will have at the respective level for basically around 15-20% hp loss and -2 Fort.
A +1 to attack is nice, but considering that's usually a level 1 buff with no downsides, it feels like mutagens in their current state really shouldn't have a negative.
That is assuming you are giving it to the person with an on-level weapon (who probably does still appreciate that +1).
You have to remember that you can also pass it out to the entire party and turn everyone into competent ranged attackers if for some reason you need to (hunting a dragon?).
No, not really.
Since there's the "striking rune" issue.
Since the worthwhile attacks basically require striking runes, it's only of use on someone already having a magic weapon.
So it's only use is giving 5% extra accuracy on the people already having range at the cost of 20% of their survivability (rolling together the Fort and Hp penalties)
I'm not sure that's true; even at the highest levels, someone lacking striking runes is only doing 3 fewer dice of damage. And if you are enabling them to attack an enemy they otherwise couldn't hit at all (because the enemy is out of melee reach), then that is a 100% increase in damage.
I don't see any reason not to hand a quicksilver to the melee fighter and say "drink this if you ever need to pull out your bow". Especially if it doesn't come up very often; you are saving the fighter from needing to spend a bunch of money enchanting a weapon they almost never use.
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It's not worse than Bless because it's a much less common type of bonus than Bless and in fact stacks with Bless.
The general philosophy of PF2e seems to be "optimizing is very costly, but catching up if you fall behind is inexpensive". The quicksilver mutagen seems to fit this exactly - for a non-optimized character, it's a very appealing buff. For an optimized character, it's an expensive cost to push themselves to the utmost threshold.
That seems reasonable to me.
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It's not worse than Bless because it's a much less common type of bonus than Bless and in fact stacks with Bless.
The general philosophy of PF2e seems to be "optimizing is very costly, but catching up if you fall behind is inexpensive". The quicksilver mutagen seems to fit this exactly - for a non-optimized character, it's a very appealing buff. For an optimized character, it's an expensive cost to push themselves to the utmost threshold.
That seems reasonable to me.
I do want to make one slight point. The various bombs in their Moderate version give an Item bonus to the attack roll which wouldn't even stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen. At that point the only bonus it would be giving is to the skill checks and reflex save. And if we're going up against a dragon then we would definitely be at the level where a fighter could feasibly afford a bow with a +1 potency rune which also wouldn't stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen.
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It's not worse than Bless because it's a much less common type of bonus than Bless and in fact stacks with Bless.
A less common type of bonus than Bless? It's the same bonus that your weapon already has. Since Quicksilver doesn't replicate the striking rune it doesn't even save you money and just puts you +1 above the curve, which for the Alchemist is still -1 compared to other martial characters.
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they bad
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I do want to make one slight point. The various bombs in their Moderate version give an Item bonus to the attack roll which wouldn't even stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen. At that point the only bonus it would be giving is to the skill checks and reflex save. And if we're going up against a dragon then we would definitely be at the level where a fighter could feasibly afford a bow with a +1 potency rune which also wouldn't stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen.It's not worse than Bless because it's a much less common type of bonus than Bless and in fact stacks with Bless.
The general philosophy of PF2e seems to be "optimizing is very costly, but catching up if you fall behind is inexpensive". The quicksilver mutagen seems to fit this exactly - for a non-optimized character, it's a very appealing buff. For an optimized character, it's an expensive cost to push themselves to the utmost threshold.
That seems reasonable to me.
Sure, the fighter could afford a +1 potency rune... but at that level the mutagen is probably giving a +3 bonus, and the fighter doesn't even have a +3 potency rune on their main weapon, much less their backup.
"Turn any ranged weapon into a +3 weapon five levels before +3 weapons are available" sounds like a pretty good buff, is all I'm saying.
For that matter, even ignoring the skill benefits, "Turn any ranged weapon into a +3 weapon AND get a 15 foot bonus to speed" is really good. Speed is valuable in PF2e. Losing 20% of your health isn't so bad when you gain enough speed to kite anything that comes after you.
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The Fighter is desperately avoiding any scenario that will prevent him from using his primary weapon because switching to a backup bow means he loses all of his feats. He'd be far more appreciative of, say, a Fly spell that allows him to keep on whacking with his greataxe than he would a quicksilver mutagen on an ordinary longbow.
Quicksilver is always +1 over any rune of the same level, so even a Longbow fighter with a +3 weapon would want a Greater Quicksilver to make it +4.
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Think alchemist items should instead change to newer bonus so instead of item bonus it be alchemical bonus, so they can stack would make them more stronger since their exilirs and mutagens come with costing resources and drawbacks.
If they changed to being an alchemical bonus, they would have to be vastly smaller, probably never going above +1. Mutagens go up to +4 only because they don't stack with magic weapons.
And at that point, the dedicated archer is getting the same +1 out of it, but now the non-dedicated characters are getting much less from the mutagen and never really want to use it.
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Never is the appropriate word.
It would be an entirely new bonus category that nothing else provides and that would stack with everything. Thus, it would push the math ceiling upwards by whatever the biggest bonus would be and would make access to mutagens required for optimized characters.
That bonus would be +1.
Putting this in PF1e terms, a mutagen that gave you a +8 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +15 foot enhancement bonus to speed, and a -4 penalty to Con would be absolutely something that would get used, even in the swingier math of 1e where bonuses matter less.
You could make the argument that a +2 Dex/-4 Con mutagen is a bit harsh, and that's definitely true, but it's also a first level option. It's only 3rd level when you get the +4 Dex/-4 Con version.
I also think people are undervaluing the speed bonus. Going against ranged attackers with this is rough, yes, but against melee attackers the speed bonus typically translates into "they get at best half as many attacks per turn as you do, and more likely they find someone slower to harass instead".
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Straight up, mutagens would be better as a status bonus. As it stands they don't stack with something you will have; if they were a status bonus then they only don't stack if you already have a dedicated buff character in the party, in which case... probably not an Alchemist for this composition?
I don't get why everyone is ignoring everything except the plus to ranged attacks. It's also giving you plus to 3 skills and a saving throw as well as plus to your speed. I haven't played this edition yet, but I'm pretty sure there's more to it than pointing your weapon at something and rolling an attack roll. It sounds like a pretty good trade-off to me.
The bonus to skills mutagens give is pretty good, it's true. The Alchemist can make for a fairly effective skill monkey. But then again, so can the Rogue - and the Rogue doesn't trade for that excellence outside of combat by giving up hope of being any good within.
On a brighter note, Jesus Christ can you imagine making that comparison in PF1? To think we can finally see a day where Rogues are considered to be pretty good at all the things they're supposed to be pretty good at. PF1's tier five have come into PF2 looking very sexy.
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Though I will fully admit my preference is for melee martials, I do like playing utility characters; I've had good fun with both a Bard and a Witch. My issue with playing the Alchemist as pure utility is that it leaves you with largely nothing to do with your own actions in combat. Mutagens are a pre-combat or first round buff that you pass out to the person who wants it, and then you do... what?
Maybe it's effective, but it sure as hell doesn't sound fun.
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I don't get why everyone is ignoring everything except the plus to ranged attacks. It's also giving you plus to 3 skills and a saving throw as well as plus to your speed. I haven't played this edition yet, but I'm pretty sure there's more to it than pointing your weapon at something and rolling an attack roll. It sounds like a pretty good trade-off to me.
The bonuses are great but I'm not sure if the trade off is worth it with the math being as tight as it is. A -2 to Fortitude is the difference between you saving against a spell or a monster's effect. If everyone +1 is super important than a self inflicted -2 should be as well.
The movement speed is nice but then again you can get the same movement bonus from a Cheetah's elixir with no penalty. I wish they had continued expanding on the other elixirs because each of those are nice and interesting whereas the Mutagens feel like weird holdovers from the previous edition to patch up weaknesses in the Alchemist's BAB.
Bestial mutagen was ahead of the curve on both accuracy and damage dice in the playtest. It's been nerfed since you played it.
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The utility mutagenist is Chapter 6 of my Doomsday Dawn game used Bestial Mutagen to engage in melee as his combat strategy. This worked fine.
I can definitely see this. The Bestial Mutagen is pretty comparable to the Barbarian's rage apart from the extra Reflex penalty. I think my biggest problem here is that out of all of the buffing classes, the Alchemist's Mutagens just don't feel fully integrated into this system and some are just strange and you can't turn them off. Cognitive Mutagen penalizing your bulk of all things when you're already a bulk heavy class? Just why?
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Bestial mutagen was ahead of the curve on both accuracy and damage dice in the playtest. It's been nerfed since you played it.
It's still ahead of the curve on accuracy, and the damage die goes up now, rather than staying a d8. It's probably gone down a tad, but it's by no means a bad strategy for being a solid secondary combatant. You need handwraps now to make use of it, but that's an expenditure you can afford.
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Straight up, mutagens would be better as a status bonus.
They would not be. Mutagen item bonuses don't stack with items, but they provide a higher bonus than a permanent item of that level. That means you can still make a specialist with the right gear better, but you can also make someone without the right tools just as good. And it still stacks with status bonuses.
If they made it a status bonus, you'd probably be stuck with a +1 bonus forever, since they wouldn't want to break the math and alchemists don't have the same heightening costs that casters get on spells like Heroism. So you'd wind up with the same bonus to the specialist, a worse bonus to anyone else, and it not stacking with spells.
That's a pretty bad trade.
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Allow me to make a comparison to the Bard: Inspire Courage is an ability that, for the cost of an action, increases the potency of everyone in your party including yourself. If an attack roll of some kind is being made, no matter what it is, having a Bard in the party makes it better.
Now our Bard, unsurprisingly, does less damage than a pure martial with her rapier. This is fine because there is zero cost to using Inspire Courage to boost her own damage - he's getting the boost anyways just for being there, might as well put it to use with his extra actions.
If we put an Alchemist in our Bard's situation, it's much less pleasant for those involved. Alchemist mutagens don't offer any combat benefit unless you're using unarmed or ranged attacks; if your primary damage dealer is a Greatsword Barbarian then you have nothing to offer to her. If your primary damage dealer is a Longbow Ranger then you can use Quicksilver Mutagen, which... costs the Ranger his first action in combat, deals damage to him, and does not give any larger of a bonus than Inspire Courage does. Oh, and at low levels the uses of the buff that defines your entire class is limited so you probably can't afford to give it to everyone every combat.
Seriously, think of it not from the buffer's perspective, but from the characters getting buffed. Who do you want in your party, the Alchemist or the Bard? The Bard seems like the much better deal for the average martial.
If you think about it, Quicksilver Mutagen is one of the few mutagens where the drawback gets worse alongside a character's level. A mutagen that gives you a -1 to AC will be bad regardless of what level you are true, but the higher level you are the less debilitating it is. However quicksilver mutagen deals damage relative to the character's level.
I also wonder if the mutagen would be better balanced if it did allow you to heal the damage it deals before the duration ends or if that would make it unbalanced the other way.
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If you think about it, Quicksilver Mutagen is one of the few mutagens where the drawback gets worse alongside a character's level. A mutagen that gives you a -1 to AC will be bad regardless of what level you are true, but the higher level you are the less debilitating it is. However quicksilver mutagen deals damage relative to the character's level.
I also wonder if the mutagen would be better balanced if it did allow you to heal the damage it deals before the duration ends or if that would make it unbalanced the other way.
Technically, Quicksilver Mutagen's penalty does not get worse by level - it's giving you -4 Con no matter what level you drink it. It's just that -4 Con costs you more hit points at higher levels.
If you think of it in terms of shifting your attributes, it's actually not so bad. Like, a 10 Con is definitely low, but I think we can all agree that an elven archer with 10 Con is a viable character? So the mutagen shifting you from 18 Dex/14 Con to 20 Dex/10 Con seems like it's still plenty fine, too.
Hmm, what if we took a Juggernaut mutagen first?
Would the Quicksilver remove the temporary hit points?
Would the penalty to Fortitude saves be cancelled out by the bonus?
It would cost more, but you would get a net gain.
I was looking at the rules for feeding Elixirs to people, and it seems that a Familiar with hands could feed you your go juice and juggernaut juice without you using actions beyond commanding it.
If this works,I'm seeing a really doped up Bard in my future...
Maybe feed the Familiar the Quicksilver and let it plink with a tiny Alchemical Crossbow/Shortbow with poisoned arrows?
I want my own cherub or maybe an absinth fairy.
Or a gingerbread man.
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status bonuses go up to +3. Or are we again debating "others should give +2/3 but alchemist just +1"?
Status bonuses go up to +3 and item bonuses up to +4. So the Alchemist wins on this one. Status bonuses go up to +1 in 90% of the cases before level 15.
And Quicksilver Mutagen gives you 15% damage output for 15-20% hit points. Seems fair to me, especially on ranged Fighter/Rangers who have far too many hit points. If I ever play a ranged Fighter/Ranger, I'll ask for the Quicksilver Mutagen, especially after level 10 when they last an hour and don't even ask for an action to be used.
Mutagens giving status bonuses would make the Alchemist a mandatory class if you want to perform after level 10. It would completely break all the maths. If you do that, you need to limit the bonus to +2 max.