| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was looking through my book, and it really seems like Prepared is better then spontaneous again... much better.
Spontaneous:
More flexibility within their spell level.
Prepared:
More spells known.
Can heighten any spell they want.
This is extra damning, because it sorcerers have lost the ability to burn a higher level slot to cast a low level spell. In 1e if push came to shove I could burn a level 2, or 3 spell slot to cast a level 1 spell. Now if my level 2 and 3 spells are useless in a situation and I run out of level 1 spells... well tough luck.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Take a look at Signature Spells. It's limited heightening.
True, one spell per level does help, I just kind of feel like it isn't enough... but on the same hand, if you could auto heighten all spells it would be too strong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like this is pretty close to the same core challenge that spontaneous casters (especially sorcerers vs. wizards) have always faced. In the past, spontaneous casters "had more spells" but this wasn't necessarily true, either. A school specialist wizard usually had very close to the same number of total spell slots as a sorcerer and had access to higher level spells at many levels throughout their career.
The fact that anyone ever played sorcerers basically means that some people just prefer having a pool of options they can pick from at any time instead of preparing. I feel like the PF2 sorcerers/bards still pull that off pretty well. The sorcerer arcane evolution feat that lets arcane sorcerers also have a spellbook is hugely cool, and frankly makes the divine/occult/primal evolution options look bad.
I do think signature spells do a pretty good job of filling in the options for casting their most flexible spells at any level. . . which is part of why I think where spontaneous casters are at their worst is for the spontaneous multiclass archetypes. They don't get signature spells. They also only get one spell per level in their repertoire without taking the breadth feat (I'd have liked to see two spells known per spell level as the default).
I suspect we'll eventually see a few more options printed for opening up the possibilities for spontaneous spellcasters. In the meantime, they mainly fit the niche of the narrow focus in a few options, and using their bloodlines and focus spells to kind of double down on that.
At least it's no longer the case that literally every wizard can spend 10 minutes to swap out spells. That thesis topic is still super strong, but there are some other cool ones to keep wizards from encroaching so much on the sorcerer's schtick.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't care so much that spontaneous is weaker than a prepared caster who prepared all the right spells. Since I know I'm not going to prepare all the right spells, barring something like "I prepared 'heal' in every single slot".
I just enjoy the paradigm of having a smaller number of tools, but I can apply any of them in whatever situation to the resource management of prepared casting.
The sorcerer arcane evolution feat that lets arcane sorcerers also have a spellbook is hugely cool, and frankly makes the divine/occult/primal evolution options look bad.
Is it the same as it was in the PT? I admit it’s my favorite of the four with Divine being the least.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't care so much that spontaneous is weaker than a prepared caster who prepared all the right spells. Since I know I'm not going to prepare all the right spells, barring something like "I prepared 'heal' in every single slot".
I just enjoy the paradigm of having a smaller number of tools, but I can apply any of them in whatever situation to the resource management of prepared casting.
I can't count the number of times the sorcerer in our WftC game has had a signature spell available at the right level when the wizard (who does have quick prep thesis) couldn't handle it. Some of the signature spells the sorcerer picked were incredibly useful but also unexpected by the other PCs so they didn't think to ask, like this fun exchange.
Fighter: "Darn it, they're bringing us in to face divinations. <Wizard>, we need 3 high-level nondetection spells!"
Wizard: "Uh, crap, do we have 30 minutes?"
Fighter: "No!"
Wizard: "Then we're in trouble"
Sorcerer: "Guys, I took it as a signature spell, I've got this covered at any level we need."
The sorcerer arcane evolution feat that lets arcane sorcerers also have a spellbook is hugely cool, and frankly makes the divine/occult/primal evolution options look bad.Is it the same as it was in the PT? I admit it’s my favorite of the four with Divine being the least.
It's actually a little better than the playtest version. Off the top of my head, the main difference is that you use a spellbook instead of scrolls, so adding additional options costs less gold. All of your repertoire spells get added to your book for free. If you select a spell already in your repertoire as part of the feat, instead of adding a new spell to your repertoire for the day, you consider your already-known spell a signature spell for the day.
I've also gone back and forth about which I would peer to have the Reaction Counterspelling feat with, since obviously a prepared caster could be prepared to block more spells, but a spontaneous caster wouldn't, for example, lose the ability to counter a fireball on reaction because they had already cast their fireball.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighter: "Darn it, they're bringing us in to face divinations. <Wizard>, we need 3 high-level nondetection spells!"
In Mark's games, nondetection seems like it's basically a reverse Detect Magic, where it's just a staple thing that any decent spellcaster has because it's like 1984 with Divination spells up in here.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
In Mark's games, nondetection seems like it's basically a reverse Detect Magic, where it's just a staple thing that any decent spellcaster has because it's like 1984 with Divination spells up in here.
Fighter: "Darn it, they're bringing us in to face divinations. <Wizard>, we need 3 high-level nondetection spells!"
It's War for the Crown, which is all about spycraft, so divinations and counters are more common.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just wish that Sorcerers had a way to change their signature spells outside of leveling up and "unlearning" the spell. The Sorcerer writeup says that you can change it in downtime the same as a spell (referencing page 481), but the downtime retraining rules don't say anything about retraining spells. The only way I see to quickly change signature spells is to multiclass into Bard and at 8th level take the (4th level Bard) feat that allows you to switch one signature spell per day when doing daily preparations.
Doesn't the retraining downtime activity allow you to retrain a class feature decision? Shouldn't that count?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People seem to have a lot of trouble recognizing that the gap between prepared and spontaneous has shrunk a lot, if there even is an edge to prepared anymore. The new heightening mechanics do way more for spontaneous casters who basically get bonus spells known from it. Prepared casters really had no hard limit on spells known before, so they don't actually get nearly the same gains. Really, being able to heighten spells is nothing new to prepared casters.
Meanwhile, sorcerers are really good at certain thing like counteracting or summon. As an example, dispel magic is great to have, but the wizard has to guess ahead of time what level to prepare for it. The sorcerer does not.
I just wish that Sorcerers had a way to change their signature spells outside of leveling up and "unlearning" the spell. The Sorcerer writeup says that you can change it in downtime the same as a spell (referencing page 481), but the downtime retraining rules don't say anything about retraining spells. The only way I see to quickly change signature spells is to multiclass into Bard and at 8th level take the (4th level Bard) feat that allows you to switch one signature spell per day when doing daily preparations.
Actually, the Arcane Evolution feat gives you a spellbook and lets you pick one of your spells to be signature for the day. Or instead pick a different spell to add to your repertoire. Which is often all you need for the prepared casters anyway. Like on a day we need spider climb, we probably need it 4 times anyway.
It's actually a little better than the playtest version. Off the top of my head, the main difference is that you use a spellbook instead of scrolls, so adding additional options costs less gold. All of your repertoire spells get added to your book for free. If you select a spell already in your repertoire as part of the feat, instead of adding a new spell to your repertoire for the day, you consider your already-known spell a signature spell for the day.The sorcerer arcane evolution feat that lets arcane sorcerers also have a spellbook is hugely cool, and frankly makes the divine/occult/primal evolution options look bad.Is it the same as it was in the PT? I admit it’s my favorite of the four with Divine being the least.
I will have to check that later today cause that works perfectly with the concept i was making. I mean, i was going to make a ‘Book of Key Scrolls’ and just keep crafting duplicates either way, but now i can be official with it.
Doesn't the retraining downtime activity allow you to retrain a class feature decision? Shouldn't that count?
It does. But the amount of time it takes is woefully unclear. They could take a week, like a feat or a skill. A month, like changing your arcane school. Or maybe even just a few hours if you have a copy of the spell on hand, who knows. It doesn't seem to be spelled out anywhere I can find.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The new heightening mechanics do way more for spontaneous casters who basically get bonus spells known from it.
Uh...not in the playtest they didn't. They explicitly did not get that (but wizards did). Did that change?
Doesn't the retraining downtime activity allow you to retrain a class feature decision? Shouldn't that count?It does. But the amount of time it takes is woefully unclear. They could take a week, like a feat or a skill. A month, like changing your arcane school. Or maybe even just a few hours if you have a copy of the spell on hand, who knows. It doesn't seem to be spelled out anywhere I can find.
I expect we may have guidelines in the gmg but I doubt we will grt hard and fast rules. PF2e seems to want the GM to have a bit more control in these situations and less for the players to go "rules say this, nomatter how silly it is in this case, you should follow the rules!"
Actually, the Arcane Evolution feat gives you a spellbook and lets you pick one of your spells to be signature for the day. Or instead pick a different spell to add to your repertoire. Which is often all you need for the prepared casters anyway. Like on a day we need spider climb, we probably need it 4 times anyway.
But unfortunately that only works with Arcane bloodlines, so my Hag and Undead bloodline sorcerers are out of luck. Hopefully, we will get clarification on retraining spells at some point.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The new heightening mechanics do way more for spontaneous casters who basically get bonus spells known from it.Uh...not in the playtest they didn't. They explicitly did not get that (but wizards did). Did that change?
I think that I know what he means, in this example a wizard preparing the 6th spell slots would have:
Disintegrate, Chain Lighting, Wall of Force, Slow (heigthened 6th)
While Sorcerer would have the options in that spell level to:
Disintegrate, Chain Lighting, Wall of Force, Dominate and every other signature spell bellow 6th including Slow that is in the 3rd level slot.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The new heightening mechanics do way more for spontaneous casters who basically get bonus spells known from it.Uh...not in the playtest they didn't. They explicitly did not get that (but wizards did). Did that change?
You heighten one "signature spell" of every level you know from spell level 2+. Your spell chosen at that level is castable both up and down level. So at the highest levels you have almost a dozen spells known to pick from at every spell level if your signature spell is castable up and down the entire range of spell levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
if it's not a signature spell, can a spontaneous caster still use a higher slot to cast a lower spell without the heightening effect?
...this fun exchange.
Fighter: "Darn it, they're bringing us in to face divinations. <Wizard>, we need 3 high-level nondetection spells!"
Wizard: "Uh, crap, do we have 30 minutes?"
Fighter: "No!"
Wizard: "Then we're in trouble"
Sorcerer: "Guys, I took it as a signature spell, I've got this covered at any level we need."
Am I safe assuming the reality of what's going on there isn't nearly as meta as it sounds? 'Cuz that sounds about as immersive as a helium balloon.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Am I safe assuming the reality of what's going on there isn't nearly as meta as it sounds? 'Cuz that sounds about as immersive as a helium balloon....this fun exchange.
Fighter: "Darn it, they're bringing us in to face divinations. <Wizard>, we need 3 high-level nondetection spells!"
Wizard: "Uh, crap, do we have 30 minutes?"
Fighter: "No!"
Wizard: "Then we're in trouble"
Sorcerer: "Guys, I took it as a signature spell, I've got this covered at any level we need."
Sounds like most ttrpg games i've ever participated in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
if it's not a signature spell, can a spontaneous caster still use a higher slot to cast a lower spell without the heightening effect?
Seconded. This is a critical question for playing spontaneous casters in PF2 (and other Vancian systems in general).
|
if it's not a signature spell, can a spontaneous caster still use a higher slot to cast a lower spell without the heightening effect?Seconded. This is a critical question for playing spontaneous casters in PF2 (and other Vancian systems in general).
Not really. It's explained on page 299. A prepared spellcaster can prepare a spell in a higher level slot; a spontaneous caster can only cast it out of a higher level slot if he knows the spell at that level as well (you could have learned Heal 1 and 3 for example), or if he's using something like Signature Spells.
The effect then is the same: the spell is considered to have the level of the slot used to cast it, which can make the spell do more things if it has heightened effects written in. And in general, it can matter for counteract levels. For example, a mean curse might not have heighten effects per se, but if you cast it out of a higher level slot your enemy would need a higher level spell to remove it too.
So, no, spontaneous casters are a bit at a disadvantage. Then again, I suspect Signature Spells will prove to be a very powerful compensation. It's looking a lot beefier than in the playtest.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it confirmed that you can't cast lower level spells with higher level slots without using Signature Spells?
I just don't understand the logic of that, Signature Spell should be about the enhanced power/effect it allows for, not merely being able to use a slot. If they wouldn't gain the stronger effect of Heightening (e.g. Heal 1 vs Heal 3), why not? You're incontrovertably getting LESS power out of that spell slot than expected. IMHO granting SOME benefit for using higher slot is even reasonable, if only counting as higher level VS Dispels/etc (but casting Dispel in higher slot wouldn't benefit since spell EFFECT isn't Heightened). If this isn't allowable by RAW, I really hope this is FAQ/Errata'd to work, even without the "counting as higher level" stuff if those assumptions are too deeply grounded in wording for Dispel et al.
I'm fine with the dropping of Daily Swap for Signature Spells, the meta of it was very dubious, pushing ALL spells known to have good Up/Downcasting options even though only few are usable on daily basis. I'd rather make that choice simultaneously with Spells Known, and not feel optimization pressure about whether ALL my spells known have good Up/Downcasting options.
The move to "omnidirectional" Upcasting AND Downcasting was definitely an strong improvement getting rid of un-necessary limitation, along with total increase in number of Signature Spells, yet which are limited to 1 per Spell Level (rather than Playtest which optimized learning them all at Level 1 or minimum level, since that was "lowest cost" for same effect... despite that awkwardly meaning your 'standards' become lowest possible level if you did use Daily Swap).
I am glad that the 10 minute spell rememorization thing was moved to exclusive option. It's there for people to use, but there is some strong choices it has to compete with, so it doesn't become "the default playstyle assumption".
I love the banter on Divination/Countermeasures, there really was two different games in 3.x/1E, one which took onboard the system implications and routinely used Magic Aura to shield Magic, and one which didn't (and yet people often complained about Detect Magic working as Detect Invisibility etc).
I don't think it would be discussed in same place as Signature Spell, which may be what is confusing some people,
it probably just depends on how the general mechanics of spontaneous casting are worded...
e.g. ~"you can cast any spell you know [UP TO] [OF] the level of the slot [OR LESS] [UP TO or OR LESS critical to whether this works or not].
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
So the designers seem to consider spontaneous casting as more powerful than prepared casting. Look at the first level class features.
A specialist wizard gets a thesis, focus spell, the bond to cast another top level spell, and a class feat.
A sorcerer gets bloodline magic (comparing to dangerous sorcery seems to be worth about a feat) and a focus spell.
Seems like wizard gets a lot more, they both get 3/4 spells per level, but the wizard gets an extra class feat and top level slot.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
which is part of why I think where spontaneous casters are at their worst is for the spontaneous multiclass archetypes. They don't get signature spells. They also only get one spell per level in their repertoire without taking the breadth feat (I'd have liked to see two spells known per spell level as the default).
This feels like a massive design oversight to me. It almost feels like they forgot to print a feat or something. Signature spell is literally the lynchpin for making spontaneous casters work in this system since they're so restricted otherwise. It just makes multiclass sorc seem purely worse than multiclass wizard.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
which is part of why I think where spontaneous casters are at their worst is for the spontaneous multiclass archetypes. They don't get signature spells. They also only get one spell per level in their repertoire without taking the breadth feat (I'd have liked to see two spells known per spell level as the default).This feels like a massive design oversight to me. It almost feels like they forgot to print a feat or something. Signature spell is literally the lynchpin for making spontaneous casters work in this system since they're so restricted otherwise. It just makes multiclass sorc seem purely worse than multiclass wizard.
I have to agree.
I will try giving MC sorcerers one signature spell with the Basic Spellcasting feat when they reach level 6 and see how that works.Otherwise a MC sorcerer without the Breadth feat is really not flexible at all.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Both prepared and spontaneous spellcasters can cast a spell at a higher spell level than that listed for the spell. This is called heightening the spell. A prepared spellcaster can heighten a spell by preparing it in a higher-level slot than its normal spell level, while a spontaneous spellcaster can heighten a spell by casting it using a higher-level spell slot, so long as they know the spell at that level (see Heightened Spontaneous Spells below). When you heighten your spell, the spell’s level increases to match the higher level of the spell slot you’ve prepared it in or used to cast it. This is useful for any spell, because some effects, such as counteracting, depend on the spell’s level.
In addition, many spells have additional specific benefits when they are heightened, such as increased damage. These extra benefits are described at the end of the spell’s stat block. Some heightened entries specify one or more levels at which the spell must be prepared or cast to gain these extra advantages. Each of these heightened entries states specifically which aspects of the spell change at the given level. Read the heightened entry only for the spell level you’re using or preparing; if its benefits are meant to include any of the effects of a lower-level heightened entry, those benefits will be included in the entry.
Other heightened entries give a number after a plus sign, indicating that heightening grants extra advantages over multiple levels. The listed effect applies for every increment of levels by which the spell is heightened above its lowest spell level, and the benefit is cumulative. For example, fireball says “Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6.” Because fireball deals 6d6 fire damage at 3rd level, a 4th-level fireball would deal 8d6 fire damage, a 5th-level spell would deal 10d6 fire damage, and so on.
If you’re a spontaneous spellcaster, you must know a spell at the specific level that you want to cast it in order to heighten it. You can add a spell to your spell repertoire at more than a single level so that you have more options when casting it. For example, if you added fireball to your repertoire as a 3rd-level spell and again as a 5th-level spell, you could cast it as a 3rd-level or a 5th-level spell; however, you couldn’t cast it as a 4th-level spell. Many spontaneous spellcasting classes provide abilities like the signature spells class feature, which allows you to cast a limited number of spells as heightened versions even if you know the spell at only a single level.
I don't think there's any "casting out of a higher level slot without heightening", now that there's no more Heighten Spell feat. I haven't been able to find any text allowing you to at least. This might be a good FAQ candidate:
You’ve learned to cast some of your spells more flexibly. For each spell level you have access to, choose one spell of that level to be a signature spell. You don’t need to learn heightened versions of signature spells separately; instead, you can heighten these spells freely. If you’ve learned a signature spell at a higher level than its minimum, you can also cast all its lower-level versions without learning those separately. If you swap out a signature spell, you can choose a replacement signature spell of the same spell level at which you learned the previous spell. You can also retrain specifically to change a signature spell to a different spell of that level without swapping any spells; this takes as much time as retraining a spell normally does.
So a level 7 sorcerer would know 4/4/4/3 spells, and have 1/1/1/1 signature spells. That seems like a fairly substantial amount.
[ARCANE][SORCERER]
Prerequisites bloodline that grants arcane spellsYour arcane legacy grants you an exceptional aptitude for intellectual and academic pursuits. You become trained in one skill of your choice. Additionally, you keep a book of arcane spells similar to a wizard’s spellbook. You add all the spells in your spell repertoire to this book for free, and you can add additional arcane spells to the book by paying the appropriate cost and using your Arcana skill, similarly to how a wizard can Learn Spells to add those spells to his spellbook. During your daily preparations, choose any one spell from your book of arcane spells. If it isn’t in your spell repertoire, add it to your spell repertoire until the next time you prepare. If it’s already in your spell repertoire, add it as an additional signature spell for that day.
This also gives you a lot of adaptability; if you have some idea of what you're going to do that day, you can add a good spell for it to your repertoire. I have a similar ability with my PF1 Rebirth psychic and in PFS it's proven really useful for adapting to fit the blind spots of the other characters at the table.
[OCCULT][SORCERER]
Prerequisites bloodline that grants occult spells
Glimpses of the obscure secrets of the universe loan you power. You become trained in one
skill of your choice. Additionally, once per day, you can spend 1 minute to choose one mental
occult spell you don’t know and add it to your spell repertoire. You lose this temporary spell
the next time you make your daily preparations (though you can use this ability to add it
again later).
This likewise blurs the lines between the spells known vs. prepared concepts.
The divine and primal bloodlines aren't quite as adaptable. They get a highest-level spell slot for Heal/Harm or Summon Animal/Plants and Fungi. Which is also nice but just one spell slot per day.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the designers seem to consider spontaneous casting as more powerful than prepared casting.
I'd have to see both in action, but they might be right. I've noticed in PF1 that my psychic turns out to be way stronger than my wizard because he can easily switch between spamming one spell or using multiple different ones. If I need the same spell 8 times in a row because it's the only one that works against a particular enemy I can do that with a spontaneous caster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've always considered Sorcerers to be the better Wizards, but I've also gotten massive push-back on that as well. ^^
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even if the Wizard isn't making any effort to anticipate what's coming up, the 'one level behind' issue always made PF1 sorcerers feel vaguely unimpressive.
Level 5 Wizard: "I just prepped Fireball and Haste and Fly. You?"
Level 5 Sorcerer: "I don't have level 3 slots yet, but I know two level 2 spells, and another one I didn't get to choose."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if the Wizard isn't making any effort to anticipate what's coming up, the 'one level behind' issue always made PF1 sorcerers feel vaguely unimpressive.
Level 5 Wizard: "I just prepped Fireball and Haste and Fly. You?"
Level 5 Sorcerer: "I don't have level 3 slots yet, but I know two level 2 spells, and another one I didn't get to choose."
Sorcerer: Though I can spam those 2nd level spells until tomorrow comes calling, not to mention having better additional powers and know how to use something besides sticks.
Anyway, that was P1E.
In P2E I seriously put Sorcerers ahead again (especially since Wizards can't expand their weapon proficiency aside from multiclassing). So far, none of the Wizard Focus powers I saw is near the power of Sorcerers.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even if the Wizard isn't making any effort to anticipate what's coming up, the 'one level behind' issue always made PF1 sorcerers feel vaguely unimpressive.
Level 5 Wizard: "I just prepped Fireball and Haste and Fly. You?"
Level 5 Sorcerer: "I don't have level 3 slots yet, but I know two level 2 spells, and another one I didn't get to choose."Sorcerer: Though I can spam those 2nd level spells until tomorrow comes calling, not to mention having better additional powers and know how to use something besides sticks.
Anyway, that was P1E.
In P2E I seriously put Sorcerers ahead again (especially since Wizards can't expand their weapon proficiency aside from multiclassing). So far, none of the Wizard Focus powers I saw is near the power of Sorcerers.
Wait, did you just include weapon proficiencies as a reason why Sorcerers have an edge over Wizards?
Wait, did you just include weapon proficiencies as a reason why Sorcerers have an edge over Wizards?Sorcerer: Though I can spam those 2nd level spells until tomorrow comes calling, not to mention having better additional powers and know how to use something besides sticks.
Anyway, that was P1E.
In P2E I seriously put Sorcerers ahead again (especially since Wizards can't expand their weapon proficiency aside from multiclassing). So far, none of the Wizard Focus powers I saw is near the power of Sorcerers.
Yes, for variety reasons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, for variety reasons.Wait, did you just include weapon proficiencies as a reason why Sorcerers have an edge over Wizards?Sorcerer: Though I can spam those 2nd level spells until tomorrow comes calling, not to mention having better additional powers and know how to use something besides sticks.
Anyway, that was P1E.
In P2E I seriously put Sorcerers ahead again (especially since Wizards can't expand their weapon proficiency aside from multiclassing). So far, none of the Wizard Focus powers I saw is near the power of Sorcerers.
In pf2, if the playtest is anything to go by, they decided to push need for weapons on to casters as well, otherwise you don't have much to do with your third action. I mean, if you have magic missile or summon monster there's that, but unless you're planning to spam those all day you're eventually going to have a two action spell and nothing else to do. And the more limited spells per day pretty much guarantee you're eventually going to be down to cantrips, which all take two actions.
Some people like this for some reason, but I kinda hate the game rules forcing me to use a weapon like a dirty muggle. :p
This is based on the playtest though so it may have been changed, we'll know tomorrow I suppose.
You can always use shield (for sorcerers that get it), demoralize, adjust position, command your familiar to do something, or use metamagic that adds an action. Not all of those will always be useful, but if you keep a couple on hand it shouldn't be too hard to find something other than plinking away with a crossbow.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it confirmed that you can't cast lower level spells with higher level slots without using Signature Spells?No? Or at least not my knowledge. What it sounds like is that you can do this, but don't get the benefits of any Heightening.That's all some are asking for. To be able to use a higher level spell slot on a lower level spell without extra benefits, as if it had been cast at its native level as in PF1 without using any metamatic feats.
For example, a level 6 sorcerer that knows Invisibility at level 2. On a sneaky day they expend all their level 2 spells on it, yet there is more demand to sneak than anything else, so they expend level 3 slots to power further castings, without heightening/signature spells/etc.
It's a bit annoying if we can't do this yeah. Still, remember that you get slightly over a quarter of all your spells known as signature spells. If you can cast level 3 spells, you have at least three Signature spells. Invisibility could be one of them. (Will certainly be worth it when you get level 4 spells.)
|
|
Even if the Wizard isn't making any effort to anticipate what's coming up, the 'one level behind' issue always made PF1 sorcerers feel vaguely unimpressive.
Level 5 Wizard: "I just prepped Fireball and Haste and Fly. You?"
Level 5 Sorcerer: "I don't have level 3 slots yet, but I know two level 2 spells, and another one I didn't get to choose."
Yeah pulling them even, and I think actually increasing the spells known you get as a sorcerer (and especially as bard!) is going to have an impact.
Just reread the book to confirm. Spontaneous really isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, especially for Sorcerers. They have a class feat they can pick up later to get an extra set of spontaneously heightened spells. On top of that they also have the ability to use Downtime to retrain the spells in their repertoire.
There are no specifics as to how long it takes so that would be a call on the DM, but the book does specifically state that it is an available option of the retraining mechanics.
Spontaneous Casters have a lot more flexibility with their spell slots but more rigidity with their repertoire while Prepared Casters are the reverse of that.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorcerer: Though I can spam those 2nd level spells until tomorrow comes calling...PF1 Level 5 Wizard: "I just prepped Fireball and Haste and Fly. You?"
PF1 Level 5 Sorcerer: "I don't have level 3 slots yet, but I know two level 2 spells, and another one I didn't get to choose."
Level 5 Wizard: Really? Let's compare how many spells we can cast per day. We both have a casting stat of 20.
Level 5 Sorcerer: I get
Level 1: 8 (6 base, 2 from stat)
Level 2: 5 (4 base, 1 from stat)
Level 5 Wizard: I get
Level 1: 6 (3 base, 1 from specialisation, 2 from stat)
Level 2: 4 (2 base, 1 from specialisation, 1 from stat)
Level 3: 4 (1 base, 1 from specialisation, 1 from stat, 1 from bonded object)
So you get fewer spells per day and they're lower level and you know fewer spells than me? And you have fewer skills because you dumped Int?
Level 5 Sorcerer: Maybe we should give PF2 a chance...
I am pretty sure that you can't cast spells in another slot as spontaneous casters unless they were learned in that level or it is a signature spell, it would be pretty confusing for players to cast the lvl 2 spell in a 3rd slot and not get the effects of heightening.