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Yeah, Multi-Round reload is bad, Multi action is one thing...
Also, considering the damage dice you would have to put a lot of stuff in there to make multi round reload worth it, becaust it can't be more dice
Multi-round reload changes the niche of firearms to something unique among weapons, more like focus spells which you do once per combat and it would need a ton of damage or some other effect to be worth it. In this scenario nobody has a firearm as their primary weapon it's more the once or twice per combat damage spike that you can pull off to really ruin someones day.
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I have been working on a campaign set in Alkenstar and this has given me a lot of ideas on how to implement guns into my new campaign. Because one of the issues I have seen while preparing this campaign is that the art depicting characters in Alkenstar, especially the Shield Marshals, often shows them using revolvers rather than flintlock pistols. There are some exceptions.
Maybe because the campaign will have a more 'wild west' theme to it, the idea of giving the players weapons that can fire multiple times per round isn't as sacrilegious as some people. I will have to mess with the numbers, but the idea of 1 action = 1 bullet, 2 actions = 3 bullets seems like it could work.
Just to toss an idea out there:
What about making guns have smaller but more numerous dice? 2d4 for a pistol or 3d4 for a rifle? I have neither flavor or mechanical reason to suggest this. Simply an idea to make the weapons more unique compared to other weapons.
@Avalon - my comment wasn’t pointed at you, but rather ‘rounds to reload’ in general. Though it’s been said that 2e is trying to move away from stacking flat bonuses, so large flat damage to a gun might be counter productive in that regard.
Multi-round reload changes the niche of firearms to something unique among weapons, more like focus spells which you do once per combat and it would need a ton of damage or some other effect to be worth it. In this scenario nobody has a firearm as their primary weapon it's more the once or twice per combat damage spike that you can pull off to really ruin someones day.Yeah, Multi-Round reload is bad, Multi action is one thing...
Also, considering the damage dice you would have to put a lot of stuff in there to make multi round reload worth it, becaust it can't be more dice
Pidgeonholding a niche feels heavy handed though. The problems i have with this is, what stops the whole party using guns on the first round? Even if you miss it’ll likely be one action for a powerful return; and what’s stopping someone with Quick Draw strapping half a dozen to their back and just reloading after combat?
With a 1-action reload you can still shoot, move, strike then reload, move, strike for the pirate illustration you used. 2-action means more risk/reward. Balancing a weapon mechanic around a supernatural/magical mechanic feels too clunky to not be a magic weapon ability.
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Well it was mentioned that on earth 1 shot guns were historically used at the start of battle at one point, so I can see it being a thing in Golarion as well.
But this is not historically and, as pumpkinhead said, it would be to niche and/or too abusable
On a side but related note to using guns as a side arm, I was wondering how do people feel about the fact that swords through out history were mostly a side arm (unless they were greatsword wielding Highlanders)?
Well it depends on period and constellation
It is true that city guards in medieval setting are often depictet using a halberd or spear with a (probably short-)sword as sidearm and they were also sidearms for archers but
There were also units of soldiers with swords (mostly with shield)
Or in a siege in crowded quarters it is rather hard to use a pole weapon of any kind
Swords were always valued for flexibility and there are some instructions to use swords way different then the classical adventurer uses them (for example gripping the blade and using the crossguard as warhammer)
I would say while swords were often used as sidearms, the parts of history were they were the primary weapon are also big (and those two are largely overlapping)
and
If I want to play a gunslinger it is just not a friggin sidearm, that would ruin the flavor for me
AND
Adventurers are never the norm of things :P
Pidgeonholding a niche feels heavy handed though.
It's good game designs for weapons to be distinguishable from each other. The alternative is to have guns just be better crossbows which if that's what you want is fine but I find it boring.
The problems i have with this is, what stops the whole party using guns on the first round? Even if you miss it’ll likely be one action for a powerful return;
Nothing. Just like the whole party can blow through focus spells or bombs on the first round if they want to. When I ran with thees type of rules in PF1 they did tend to use them all in the first round, it wasn't a problem in fact that's how early firearms were used and that is the intent.
and what’s stopping someone with Quick Draw strapping half a dozen to their back and just reloading after combat?
Bulk limits. If you have a high strength character who carries a bunch of pistols that seems like a cool build. It is balanced by the need to use Dex to hit but Str to carry them all. Again when I ran this in PF1 one of the players did this and it was fine.
With a 1-action reload you can still shoot, move, strike then reload, move, strike for the pirate illustration you used. 2-action means more risk/reward.
Yup just like a better crossbow. IMO boring.
Balancing a weapon mechanic around a supernatural/magical mechanic feels too clunky to not be a magic weapon ability.
Magic characters and non-magic characters coexsist and thus need to be balanced against each other anyways.
If 'it handles similar so it is just a better version of weapon x' is an argument then one could argue that there is basically no difference between melee weapons as well
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If 'it handles similar so it is just a better version of weapon x' is an argument then one could argue that there is basically no difference between melee weapons as well
There really wasn't in PF1 just damage types. That's why they introduced weapon traits.
Yes and I argue that weapon traits would make Guns different from crossbows
So...they have reload...and? So do slings, throwing weapons have indirect reload
doesn't make them bad weapony
And guns certrainly would have a number of traits that would make them different from crossbows
just like weapon traits differ greatsword, scythe, warhammer, etc
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Yes and I argue that weapon traits would make Guns different from crossbows
So...they have reload...and? So do slings, throwing weapons have indirect reload
doesn't make them bad weapony
And guns certrainly would have a number of traits that would make them different from crossbowsjust like weapon traits differ greatsword, scythe, warhammer, etc
I agree with all that. You could make guns unique from crossbows if you have sufficiently unique weapon traits.
I also think that a good way to make firearms distinct would be to up the damage and the reload compared to crossbows putting them niche that doesn't currently exist in the game.
As I said earlier it's a big departure from how guns worked in PF1 so I don't think that's how firearms will be published in PF2. More just sharing my opinion on how I think I will homebrew firearms if I decide that I want to use them.
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I like the idea of it being a reflex save to determine how much damage a gun does.
Critical success or success: No damage
Failure: 1d12 damage
Critical Failure: 2d12 damage.
Reflex DC is equal to 10+DEX+Proficiency with firearms. Gunslingers start off expert with guns. 3 round reload action.
Another thing I was thinking through was having firearms have a weapon trait that accomplishes what I was suggesting, for instance, a pistol could have Penetrate (X)
Flintlock pistol: 1d6 piercing, reload X (not what I want to focus on here), Range 20, Penetrate 10
Penetrate: When this weapon deals damage to an enemy, that enemy takes the additional penetrate damage. This damage is doubled on a critical hit. An enemy with resistance to piercing does not take the additional penetrate damage.
So, my thoughts on having this weapon trait would mean that there could be ways to mitigate the damage done by the weapon. Firing a pistol at a shield that blocks the damage (for example) would prevent the enemy behind the shield from taking the larger damage.
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@Bardarok - Apparently i glanced over the first time you mentioned them being a homebrew idea. Glad they work for your groups, but personally nothing about that seems interesting or appealing; to each their own.
What i’m looking for when it comes to niche, aside from different weapon traits and some exclusive feats, would be like alchemical bullets. Just dive into the Alchemy aspect of it. As for Crossbows, i do feel they need at least some weapon traits other than being treated as bows; but Crossbows are just simple weapons where Firearms are not. I mean technically speaking, Bow’s are just an better version of Crossbows. A character with access to Martial weapons generally won’t pick Simple weapons unless it’s something rather specific such as going for a Spiked Gauntlet.
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Having guns be a reflex save doesn't make sense on a conceptual level.
Imagine this: You just got a gun and have never held one before, you decide to do target practice and see how it works. With Guns use Reflex: You always hit objects no matter how bad a shot you are. With Guns use regular attacks: You may hit sometimes, but definetly arent hitting all the time.
However, getting a feat to "Matrix Dodge" sounds really cool as a high level Rogue Feat (with an Evasion pre-req ofcourse).
In 1E maybe but just using one randomly would mean you are untrained so it would be 10+Dex. The most Dexterous person with a gun would have a 14 DC. A skeleton which is a -1 CR creature has a +8 to reflex. Meaning they only have to roll a 6 or higher and that's against someone with an 18 in Dex...
Seems pretty great to me since like I said on a success they don't take damage because you would have missed.
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If you want to link it to relfex, I say it'd be better to treat your targets reflex DC as the AC (before circumstance and status modifeirs) against the gun's attack roll than making it a reflex save. It's probably the closest thing the system gets to touch ac in flavor (outside of magic, armor doesn't it boost it so it's based upon your raw dex but also tends to have higher profency so it's not radically out of line). That said, I like the idea that guns are similar to bombs in that they deal damage on fail (but not crit fail) and I warn against too high of reload as in most cases the cost is to much as compared to the benefits.
I'd rather guns never get alchemical cartridges or rapid reload personally.
Default 2-action reload, but pepperboxes, ammo and the like are affordable (but have the rare tag).
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....Objects still auto fail dont they? Or did they changed that and I never realized?
Also if you do use Reflex rule, a success should be a grading wound, aka 1d6 dmg.
I can't speak for objects but you're thinking of "basic saves" which follow the
Critical Success=No damage
Success=half damage
Failure=full damage
Critical Failure=double damage
Not all saves follow that formula and for balance reasons a gun shouldn't either because it means you're always dealing d6 worth of damage which is too strong.
Okay so just to get it straight, you believe an average person has a roughly 50% chance to dodge a gunshot aimed straight at them is more believable then an average person having a 50% chance to not miss when firing said gun.
Is this right?Because let me tell you, dodging a bullet is very hard and it absolutely requires the shooter to be no less than 500 yards away to even have the possibility of dodging. See Mythbusters can you dodge a bullet.
Not to mention that having the target do a reflex save is contrary to the skill and training needed to actually use a gun.
No I believe reflex is the closest thing we can get to touch and that it creates a weapon which feels very different from bows or crossbows which should be the goal if you are adding guns to your fantasy game otherwise what's the point?
Following your logic that it's hard to dodge bullets, I can assume that you think guns in PF1E should ignore both armor and Dex to AC cause bullets go through armor and it's too hard to dodge them. Meaning all guns just have to beat 10 +/- the size effect on AC in 1st edition.
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I want late 19th to early 20th century guns. Repeaters, bolt action rifles, revolvers, gatling guns, Vickers .303, etc. That's about a good tech level to combine with fantasy in my book. I like a little Red Dead with my undead.
Ever play/hear of Wild Arms? That series is golden.
The reason its touch AC is because it doesn't matter how hard or where it hits, just that it does; and adding Dex to AC is represention of how much/fast characters are moving around in a round, as well as their reaction speed.
Basicly, shooting touch AC asks, "how good are you at hitting moving targets, when armor doesn't matter?". However, Reflex saves reverses this and asks the target, "how good are you at moving/dodging, that you can prevent getting hit?".
Effectively to have Guns require a Reflex save, would require motion/reactions so fast that it would invalidate all other ranged and splash weapons.
Touch AC is 10+DEX+Size... If bullets are too fast to dodge then you shouldn't be adding Dex to your AC against it because Dex represents you actively trying to dodge it. This isn't that hard to understand.
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I can not properly express how much I don't want firearms to be a saving throw.
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IF you can dodge a wrench...
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IT was joke.
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IF you can dodge a wrench...
‘Yeah, uh, Patches. . . Are you sure this is completely necessary?’
A simple way to resolve it is have firearms work in the following way. You roll to attack, targeting the opponents reflex DC for a standard save. If the target is unaware of you or flat footed treat the attack as one degree of success better for the purposes of resolving the hit.
A simple way to resolve it is have firearms work in the following way. You roll to attack, targeting the opponents reflex DC for a standard save. If the target is unaware of you or flat footed treat the attack as one degree of success better for the purposes of resolving the hit.
Get out of here with your common sense!
Jk
Have you played one of those shoot the target arcade games? Which is harder to hit the stationary target or the moving target? Does the target try to avoid the bullet? Does the bullet always hit, but sometimes doesnt knock over the target?
Again Dex to AC represent that the character isnt an object and is in fact in motion. A gun is not a point and click effect like a fireball; The user has to aim just like any other ranged weapon, the only 2 differences are: Travel speed and Power. Again if you can passively (with no feat investment) dodge a bullet (2.5k ft/s) 50% of the time at standard ranges, less than 100 ft (a mere 33-34 yards of the 500 yard minimum), you can dodge arrows (~100 ft/s) at the same distance 100% of the time without investment.
You're missing the point. If bullets are so fast that you can't dodge them, as you keep saying, then it shouldn't matter if you are in motion because even if you are you can't dodge them according to you.
Also dragon fire breath isn't instantaneous yet still goes against reflex. Reflex is being used as a way to calculate how good you are in avoiding something, ie how hard you are to hit ie if the thing touches you, you take damage.
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If we all got 100 tokens to vote on different aspects of guns, I would spend all 100 to make sure they don't have exceptional attack rules, and ensure that they resolve against normal AC.
The touch targeting from 1E was in large part responsible for the mess that guns became.
Guns aren't special against armor. They fire a smaller mass more quickly than other weapons, but let's recap:
* In the real world early guns were good against early armor, but armor improved to be able to deflect shots from early guns.
* This isn't the real world.
* Magical bows could fire arrows at the same speed as bullets through magic. Magically enhanced monks might throw punches at a similarly ludicrous speed. Why don't those ignore armor?
* Magic armor interacts with bullets in an unknown manner. Why should bullets not care about adamantine armor?
* An adventurer's armor isn't necessarily designed to protect against human weapons. It could be heavier and thicker to protect against trolls and dragons.
* Dodging bullets is more immersion breaking than armor blocking them (since real world armor exists that stops bullets from all different levels of gun technology)
Just let it go. Let guns fall in line. Let them target AC but get some set of other traits that makes them unique. Heck, make them straight up stronger but requiring a feat or GM approval through rarity. Just don't mess up armor math now that it's actually somewhat balanced.
If we all got 100 tokens to vote on different aspects of guns, I would spend all 100 to make sure they don't have exceptional attack rules, and ensure that they resolve against normal AC.
The touch targeting from 1E was in large part responsible for the mess that guns became.
Guns aren't special against armor. They fire a smaller mass more quickly than other weapons, but let's recap:
* In the real world early guns were good against early armor, but armor improved to be able to deflect shots from early guns.
* This isn't the real world.
* Magical bows could fire arrows at the same speed as bullets through magic. Magically enhanced monks might throw punches at a similarly ludicrous speed. Why don't those ignore armor?
* Magic armor interacts with bullets in an unknown manner. Why should bullets not care about adamantine armor?
* An adventurer's armor isn't necessarily designed to protect against human weapons. It could be heavier and thicker to protect against trolls and dragons.
* Dodging bullets is more immersion breaking than armor blocking them (since real world armor exists that stops bullets from all different levels of gun technology)
Just let it go. Let guns fall in line. Let them target AC but get some set of other traits that makes them unique. Heck, make them straight up stronger but requiring a feat or GM approval through rarity. Just don't mess up armor math now that it's actually somewhat balanced.
You know, all of those are excellent points. I agree, have them fall in line with regular AC. In terms of a way to deal with armor, what do you think about the Penetrate idea I had suggested earlier? What I had suggested would essentially mean that if armor or some other resistance to the bullets initial damage (1d6 for a pistol let's say) blocks the damage die, the target does not take the Penetrate damage.
This would especially work to show shields or a character with armor specialization managing to have their armor stop the damage, preventing them from taking more.
If we all got 100 tokens to vote on different aspects of guns, I would spend all 100 to make sure they don't have exceptional attack rules, and ensure that they resolve against normal AC.
I'm 50/50 on them targeting Reflex DC, it does accomplish Bardarock's goal of having them stick out in a very unique manner, but I also agree that it might be a bit TOO alien.
The touch targeting from 1E was in large part responsible for the mess that guns became.
Guns aren't special against armor. They fire a smaller mass more quickly than other weapons, but let's recap:
* In the real world early guns were good against early armor, but armor improved to be able to deflect shots from early guns.
* This isn't the real world.
No argument from me here.
* Magical bows could fire arrows at the same speed as bullets through magic. Magically enhanced monks might throw punches at a similarly ludicrous speed. Why don't those ignore armor?
Void rune, Ghost Strike. BOOM! :P
* Magic armor interacts with bullets in an unknown manner. Why should bullets not care about adamantine armor?
I believe that the thing with adamantine is that A. that bestows DR (resist physical in 2E), thus mitigating all incoming weapon damage B. Thin tungsten plates can still get poked through with a 9m round, so since tungsten is our closest allegory, it's still semi-believable that a bullet can make a small hole in ada-plate.
* An adventurer's armor isn't necessarily designed to protect against human weapons. It could be heavier and thicker to protect against trolls and dragons.
Aye!
* Dodging bullets is more immersion breaking than armor blocking them (since real world armor exists that stops bullets from all different levels of gun technology)
By using ceramic plates wrapped in a special cloth. That doesn't work too well against swords (Yes, it will stop one or two swings, but the 3rd or 4th chop will go through without issue). Knives get stopped, swords... not so much
Just let it go. Let guns fall in line. Let them target AC but get some set of other traits that makes them unique. Heck, make them straight up stronger but requiring a feat or GM approval through rarity. Just don't mess up armor math now that it's actually somewhat balanced.
I agree that making them target normal AC would make the least amount of headaches, but giving them a trait that lets them go after Reflex DC instead of AC does sounds fascinating, I also heard it was talked about that bombs would go after Re-DC, they just decided against it because it was too out there for the time.
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Making guns simple instead of weird and unique should be the goal. I don't see the addition of a weapon type as a place to introduce entirely new mechanics.
Making guns simple instead of weird and unique should be the goal. I don't see the addition of a weapon type as a place to introduce entirely new mechanics.
Then where would you introduce new mechanics if not in new items/classes or the like? If you were to make new weapon traits, would you not need new weapons to put them on?
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Good examples of new weapon traits are point blank and inaccurate as described early in this thread.
Bad examples would be new things to target with an attack roll.
New mechanics should come in new classes (gunslinger should not be a class) or new item categories, or special magic items, not just a new weapon.
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Perhaps guns can innately damage more than one way simultaneously, and triggers all appropriate weaknesses? Like a shotgun does both piercing and fire damage, pistols and rifles do piercing and bludgeoning?
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If we all got 100 tokens to vote on different aspects of guns, I would spend all 100 to make sure they don't have exceptional attack rules, and ensure that they resolve against normal AC.
The touch targeting from 1E was in large part responsible for the mess that guns became.
Guns aren't special against armor. They fire a smaller mass more quickly than other weapons, but let's recap:
* In the real world early guns were good against early armor, but armor improved to be able to deflect shots from early guns.
* This isn't the real world.
* Magical bows could fire arrows at the same speed as bullets through magic. Magically enhanced monks might throw punches at a similarly ludicrous speed. Why don't those ignore armor?
* Magic armor interacts with bullets in an unknown manner. Why should bullets not care about adamantine armor?
* An adventurer's armor isn't necessarily designed to protect against human weapons. It could be heavier and thicker to protect against trolls and dragons.
* Dodging bullets is more immersion breaking than armor blocking them (since real world armor exists that stops bullets from all different levels of gun technology)
Just let it go. Let guns fall in line. Let them target AC but get some set of other traits that makes them unique. Heck, make them straight up stronger but requiring a feat or GM approval through rarity. Just don't mess up armor math now that it's actually somewhat balanced.
I've houseruled guns to use normal AC and then (in addition to standard bullets) added more expensive armor piercing ammo that ignores 5 points of the targets Armor bonus to AC. It has worked very well.
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I just did some research and apparently, the world record for a revolver is 16 shots fired in 4 seconds. This was used with the assistance of a thing called a speed loader. (a contraption that holds a revolver load of bullets in a circle and makes quick reload hecka fast). Now that is worlds fastest, not regular enemies or low level PC's. And without the speed loader, I found a lot of professional marksmen could load their revolvers one bullet at a time in about 10-15 seconds. I think part of the mechanic that should keep guns balanced is the fact that they require reload times. So this is what I am thinking for the purpose of my Alkenstar campaign:
Generic Alkenstar Revolver
Price TBD
Damage 2d4 P
Range 60 Ft
Reload 2 or 3
Bulk L
Hands 1
Group Firearm
Traits Agile, Fatal 2d6, Capacity 6
Reload 2 a Generic Alkenstar Revolver reloads a single bullet, up to its maximum capacity of 6. Alternatively, you can Reload 3 to load 3 bullets.
Speed Loader (or Moon Clip)
Price TBD
Description: This device can hold a firearms full capacity of ammo and can be used as part of a reload action to reload a firearm to full capacity. Once used, the PC must spend an appropriate number of actions refilling the Speed Loader back to capacity.
Feat: Rapid Reload
Requirements: Trained in Firearms
Effect: Reduce the Reload on Firearms by 1. (A revolver can have one bullet reloaded for 1 action or 3 bullets reloaded for 2 actions)
Feat: Fan the Hammer
Requirements: Trained in Firearms
Effect: Firearms are treated as having their Reload reduced by 1 for the purposes of feats such as Double Shot or Triple Shot.
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1) Guns are simply better Crossbows
This isn’t an argument; this is more just a statement of fact. Mechanically speaking Short/Longbows are just better versions of crossbows. The sling, for having a reload of 1-action and 1d6 damage is just a handcrossbow mechanically speaking; and a Halfling Slingstaff is just purely better than a heavy crossbow. Same damage but only 1-action reload, but that doesn’t mean there can only be one.
2) Guns should be niche and unique
Not at the cost of consistency. Forget lore or physics consistency; i’m Just talking about mechanically speaking. Guns were generally hated in 1e for being the weapon that was inconsistent for targeting TAC. The only thing making a new mechanic for guns in the name of ‘uniqueness’ is going to do is make the weapon generally hated again.
3) Dodging bullets
You dodge bullets by dodging where the shooter’s aiming. None of us live in the Matrix. . . That we know of. . . Yet. . .
4) Gunslinger should be a class
Change my mind
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I just did some research and apparently, the world record for a revolver is 16 shots fired in 4 seconds. This was used with the assistance of a thing called a speed loader. (a contraption that holds a revolver load of bullets in a circle and makes quick reload hecka fast). Now that is worlds fastest, not regular enemies or low level PC's. And without the speed loader, I found a lot of professional marksmen could load their revolvers one bullet at a time in about 10-15 seconds. I think part of the mechanic that should keep guns balanced is the fact that they require reload times. So this is what I am thinking for the purpose of my Alkenstar campaign:
Generic Alkenstar Revolver
Price TBD
Damage 2d4 P
Range 60 Ft
Reload 2 or 3
Bulk L
Hands 1
Group Firearm
Traits Agile, Fatal 2d6, Capacity 6Reload 2 a Generic Alkenstar Revolver reloads a single bullet, up to its maximum capacity of 6. Alternatively, you can Reload 3 to load 3 bullets.
Speed Loader (or Moon Clip)
Price TBD
Description: This device can hold a firearms full capacity of ammo and can be used as part of a reload action to reload a firearm to full capacity. Once used, the PC must spend an appropriate number of actions refilling the Speed Loader back to capacity.Feat: Rapid Reload
Requirements: Trained in Firearms
Effect: Reduce the Reload on Firearms by 1. (A revolver can have one bullet reloaded for 1 action or 3 bullets reloaded for 2 actions)Feat: Fan the Hammer
Requirements: Trained in Firearms
Effect: Firearms are treated as having their Reload reduced by 1 for the purposes of feats such as Double Shot or Triple Shot.
2d4 dmg as base is probably a no-go, all weapons have one damage die and thats it
2d4 seems a lot for a revolver
60ft. is also quite a lot for a short barralled one handed weapon
Agile ... seems okay
Fatal lists a damage die, not a number of die
the reload seems okay, the speed loader too
rapid reload seems okay in that context
fan the hammer does not make sense since the magazine would imply that you not have to reload between shots either way