Ideas for Guns in Second


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Seisho wrote:


60ft. is also quite a lot for a short barralled one handed weapon

That was the range on a Hand Crossbow (in my copy of the playtest). That was really the only reason I selected it.

The 2d4 thing was just because people thought they should have some kind of unique trait to them. But now that you mention it, it probably would be a bad idea. Maybe changing it to a d8 damage?

Fan the Hammer - Change it to "for the purposes of qualify (using?) feats such as Double Shot or Triple Shot"?

Seisho wrote:


Agile ... seems okay

Is that like a begrudgingly accepted okay or like "You know what, yeah ok" ? I need the clarification. :D


Because Pathfinder is fantasy its fine to have a high level Monk/Rogue feat(s) to dodge or deflect 1 ranged attack as a reaction. But it should never be a passive for everyone from level 1.


It's more like 'I first thought no but it actually makes a lot of sense' :P
Then again recoil would probably work aginst that, hard to say

And fan the hammer would be more like 'consider revolver type weapons as having reload 0 for feat requirements as long as there is enough ammo in the magazin'

with reload one double shot would still not work since it's reload would be '1 or 2' according to your sheet

And, although hand crossbow reach seems to be buffed by 100% the reach of firearms was lower (partially to indicate the low accuracy, partially because of the 'TAC in first range increment' thing) revolvers were at 20ft, as were the most pistols

admittedly the range could be higher (also from a balance point of view) but it would make sense to keep it shorter then most other ranged 'shooting' weapons (at least for short barreled guns, long barrelled like musket etc would be something else)


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:


3) Dodging bullets

You dodge bullets by dodging where the shooter’s aiming. None of us live in the Matrix. . . That we know of. . . Yet. . .

Yeah, you dodge like this


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The range and penalties could be done with a Short Barrel and Long Barrel traits.

Short Barrel: no penalties at short range, high penalties at long range. Lower range increment. Can access faster reload.

Long Barrel: low penalties at long range, high penalties at short range. Higher range increment. Has slow reload.


All of the primitive firearms native to Galoran should have penalties at long range. But even we discount how inaccurate early guns were, with this paradigm, shotguns would need to be a short barrel.


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sherlock1701 wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:


3) Dodging bullets

You dodge bullets by dodging where the shooter’s aiming. None of us live in the Matrix. . . That we know of. . . Yet. . .

Yeah, you dodge like this

I was pretty sure what that was before clicking.


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lordcirth wrote:
sherlock1701 wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:


3) Dodging bullets

You dodge bullets by dodging where the shooter’s aiming. None of us live in the Matrix. . . That we know of. . . Yet. . .

Yeah, you dodge like this
I was pretty sure what that was before clicking.

Great, now i want a Gun Monk. . . Guess i better get to work on it


I’ve got some ideas about this topic I’d wish to discuss.
It has been stated in the thread that:

-weapons have only 1 damage dice;

-although the first firearms needed much time to recharge, some weapon requiring 3 actions or more before you can do another shot would be unplayable;

-we need something else that make them feel unique, unless we want to relegate them as a flavour alternative to crossbows.

If dices cannot go bigger we can instead translate the “you target Touch AC” as a “you have a little bonus to attack”, which goes in the direction of “you can crit a little more frequently”.

Recoil: weapons with this trait need firmness to unleash their potential. You can use an action to stabilise your position and amortise the recoil: until you move you have a +2 circumstance/item/what-you-want bonus to your attack rolls. Alternatively, if the weapon is 1H, you can obtain this bonus using it with a 2H grip.

If it is a common trait to firearms you won’t need a high reload time: the fast shooter will attack quickly with a minor accuracy, the sniper will have his reason not to use another type of weapon.

There could be also other traits which characterise firearms, like

-Thoundering: weapons with this trait are extremely noisy. When you shoot with a weapon with this trait in the first range increment, the target has to make a flat check with DC 4-5: on a fail, he is deafened for his next round. Other people ignorant of the fight can make a Perception Check with a Circumstance +2 bonus to notice the shot.

We would also need some trait which replicates “scatter”, like

-Scatter: firearms with this trait can use two types of ammunitions. It can shoot normal bullets, which target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, which targets all the creatures in a con in the first range increment. You have to make only one attack roll with a -2 Circumstance malus.

What do you think? What other traits could make their appearance?

I’m trying to make a homemade conversion of Zeitgeist to 2E, so I’m really interested in what could works.


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Recoil would actually be a good negative for all firearms. Something like (this is just a to get creative juices flowing numbers aren't final).

- Recoil: Firearms have a lot of power messing with the accuracy of shots if not held correctly. 1-h firearms get a -2 on ranged strikes for every shot in which the firearm wasn't held 2-handed. 2-h firearms get a -4 on ranged strike rolls for every shot held 1-handed, and -2 on every roll held 2-h.

A gun stand reduces recoil penalties by 2.

As for sniping, well you can have: Increase the reload time by X, the weapon deals Y times damage on a success or critical success. Effectively, trading more attacks for 1 accurate very damaging attack. The problem might be how it interacts with runes, maybe make it so runes aren't affected if it's too much damage?


Temperans wrote:

Recoil would actually be a good negative for all firearms. Something like (this is just a to get creative juices flowing numbers aren't final).

- Recoil: Firearms have a lot of power messing with the accuracy of shots if not held correctly. 1-h firearms get a -2 on ranged strikes for every shot in which the firearm wasn't held 2-handed. 2-h firearms get a -4 on ranged strike rolls for every shot held 1-handed, and -2 on every roll held 2-h.

A gun stand reduces recoil penalties by 2.

As for sniping, well you can have: Increase the reload time by X, the weapon deals Y times damage on a success or critical success. Effectively, trading more attacks for 1 accurate very damaging attack. The problem might be how it interacts with runes, maybe make it so runes aren't affected if it's too much damage?

I see your point, the gun stand could become a “Gunslinger Stance”, or they could introduce many of thees stances, with different bonuses.

The only problem I see is that we'll need some powerful traits to justify this malus, something that makes you want to use a firearm even though you have to reload and suffer the recoil. I suggested only a pair, but I think they wouldn’t be sufficient. What could make sense?


Yoveu wrote:

I see your point, the gun stand could become a “Gunslinger Stance”, or they could introduce many of thees stances, with different bonuses.

The only problem I see is that we'll need some powerful traits to justify this malus, something that makes you want to use a firearm even though you have to reload and suffer the recoil. I suggested only a pair, but I think they wouldn’t be sufficient. What could make sense?

Oh by "Gun Stand" I meant things like tripods and stuff, kind of forgot about stances.

Well the trade off is the exact benefit of firearms, a lot more power for less attacks (too much power once reload becomes a free action with 6 attacks per turn, aka machine guns). In which case, giving firearms double damage on a success or crit success; while making sniping guns (which have worse reload) getting 3x or 4x damage.

But now I'm wondering what are the rules for siege weapons, I dont remember people talking about them.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't know if it helps, but I just took a stab at building some technological weapons: a rail gun and an arc rifle.

I decided that they should have inherent higher damage dice (3d10 for the rail gun and 2d8 for the arc rifle) but they have a technological trait that prevents them from benefiting from any sort of Striking rune.

I'm thinking I might take the route of Starfinder and have a progression of guns over levels, rather than balancing a bunch of guns against each other at all levels.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some very interesting discussions here and it has been getting my own thought process rolling to say the very least. One of the things I need to stress here is that I am a bit of a homebrewer and I almost never run things RAW unless I am so new to the rules set that I need to see how things work or not before I start tinkering around too much. I also like running things with the understanding that the tech level is either Age of Sail or Steampunk. For those unaware Age of Sail refers to the time period that includes the American and French Revolutions, the French and Indian wars, almost any pirate film you care to mention and anything based on the works of Alexander Dumas. But I also live in Philadelphia and the city has a rather keen interest collectively in the Age of Sail.

What I am thinking of regarding firearms in PF2 in what I am running is this: Gunpowder is the purview of Alchemy and thus all firearms are added to the list of what an alchemist can more or less safely use without too much risk of injuring themselves and others. Next I plan on having four different kinds of guns for both eras: Derringers (d4 P 20ft.); Pistols (d6 P 60 ft.), Shotguns (d8 P 80 ft.) and Rifles (d10 P 120 ft.). All of them get the Deadly (d10) property while Shotguns get Sweep. How readily their available depends on the era; before the Age of Sale they are advanced weapons, Age of Sail they are Martial and Steampunk they are Simple.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

obvs this isn't made to fit with existing golarion, but whatever.

to be perfectly honest, i hate the idea of muskets and black powder pistols, etc. If i were gona homebrew guns in, they'd be 18th century equivalents. Golarion has a decent amount of engineering knowledge available with constructs and alchemy and the like, I'd find it weird if people just left guns as black powder weapons.

So, I's probably remove misfire. most weapons would be bolt action or level action allowing for quick clean reloads while still being only single shot(even for pistols this was decently common). Rifling and pointed bullets are in use. Only siege weaponry such as a gatling gun would have a magazine. and then maybe high end revolver and or level/pump action weapons as well(just being more expensive with a no action reload and then 1 action per 2 bullets back into the magazine). The weapons should be advanced and I think in general just do slightly more damage than longbows. when you shoot from a gun with a magazine you remove a bullet from it's magazine and cannot fire until it has a bullet again.

additional trait, Magazine, gains the features as above but the size of bullets in the magazine is is listed with the magazine.

10 bullets is L bulk, 1 gp.

Pistol(single shot break action) -> 1d8 damage, 60 ft range, reload 1, 1 bulk, 1 hand, gun group, Deadly 1d12
Revolver -> 1d8, 60 ft, 0 , 1 bulk, 1 hand, gun group, deadly 1d12, magazine 6(I was thinking 5 but guns should keep even number magazines so reloading isn't weird)

Carbine -> 1d8, 100 ft, reload 1, 2 bulk(while heavier than a bow, is smaller), 1+, gun group, deadly 1d12, two-handed 1d10
Lever-action -> 1d8, 100 ft, reload 0, 2 bulk, 1+, gun group, deadly 1d12, two-handed 1d10, magazine 8

Rifle -> 1d12, 150 ft, reload 1, 3 bulk, 2, gun group, deadly 1d12, volley 30ft

shotguns i'm unsure about, i think i'd give them a smaller range like pistols and give them the ability to bypass an amount of hardness or resistance.

if they're not going to be advanced weapons drop their die size by 2 steps and 1 step on deadly. my design philosophy on guns is that they shouldn't be too removed from longbows and that they shouldn't have either low fire rates or long reload times as i want the players to get their use of dice out of a gun just as much as a longbow.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I actually think you're going the wrong way to declare them Advanced or even Martial weapons. It might be better to showcase the firearm's most historically advantageous trait: just about any peasant can use them with a few weeks of training.

With this in mind, all early firearms are Uncommon Simple weapons:

-Pistol- 1d8P - 20 ft range - Reload 1 - 1 hand - Spread, Recoil 1, Deadly 1d10
-Musket- 1d10P - 40 ft range - Reload 1 - 2 hands - Spread, Recoil 2, Deadly 1d12

-Spread- The weapon is inherently inaccurate beyond a certain range. When Striking a target beyond the first range increment, you miss unless you would critically hit, in which chase you hit instead.
-Recoil- The weapon has a kick that throws off your aim for future shots. When you Strike with this weapon, increase the multiple attack penalty by the listed number for any further attacks. Reduce this rating by your Constitution Modifier, and by a further 1 if you are wielding a 1-handed weapon in two hands.

In this case I'm assuming the prevalent use of alchemical cartridges as proposed earlier in this thread, which combined with some suspension of disbelief allows the Reload of 1 for both weapons which historically (both IRL and in PF1) took much longer.
The assumption of alchemical cartridges also allows for some additional versatility, as presented by the ammunition types or variant weapons below (I'd recommend you don't use both).

-Ball Cartridge (default)- No modifications.
-Shot Cartridge (packaged shot for shredding damage)- Double the Recoil by 1, replace Deadly with Fatal.
-Blast Cartridge (dragons-breath rounds)- reduce the range by half, add the Blast property.
-Spike Cartridge (Flechettes)- Double the Recoil, add the Penetrate property.

Pistol Variants: Dragon Pistol (with Blast Cartridges), Hand Cannon (with Shot Cartridges), Bolter (with Spike Cartridges)
Musket Variants: Blunderbuss (with Shot Cartridges), Dragon Musket (with Blast Cartridges), Heavy Bolter (with Spike Cartridges)

With the properties as follows:
-Blast- The weapon creates a conical blast of length equal to weapon range when you Strike, dealing weapon damage as normal to all creatures that would be hit in the area. Attack actions you take (including Strike) require an additional Action and attack rolls are made as though you had made an additional attack with this weapon (for the purpose of multiple attack penalties).
-Penetrate- The weapon creates a linear blast of length equal to weapon range when you Strike, dealing weapon damage as normal to all creatures that would be hit in the area. Attack actions you take (including Strike) require an additional Action and attack rolls are made as though you had made an additional attack with this weapon (for the purpose of multiple attack penalties).

All the other canonical Pathfinder guns (like the Buckler Gun) can be easily created from there by combining properties above with those in the core rulebook (add the Attached property to the Pistol, while reducing the damage die). For extra spice, make different guns or ammo types different levels, add Advanced firearms (at Rare) by reducing the downsides and having a larger clip size, or create new ammo types (Blast Cartridges with Fire damage anyone?).

What are your thought?


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For spread, I would give a large penalty instead of negating the crit. That would severely reduces the hit and crit chance, while not outright denying crits. But overall it seems like a great negative trait for early firearms.

For penetrate and blast im not sure, they seem like something a Gunslinger might get as feats; Specially penetrate which has the "I planned to shoot there" and "somehow I managed to shoot there" aspects.

What do you think about this for the penetrate trait: On a crit success deal damage to the target as if it was a regular success, and target another creature behind it with an additional -2 penalty per target hit; repeat this until you stop rolling a crit success, or the bullet has travelled the weapon's range, whichever comes first.
I'm thinking it might be too strong, but I'm not sure.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Dusbringer wrote:
I actually think you're going the wrong way to declare them Advanced or even Martial weapons. It might be better to showcase the firearm's most historically advantageous trait: just about any peasant can use them with a few weeks of training.

Historically, this is because they didn't teach them to aim, simply got them into general military training of following orders, etc. the idea being if you have enough guns you only need hands to hold them.

really look what happened when skirmishers from the West during the Civil War and Revolutionary war were used. they'd pick off people from much farther away and escape unscathed.

there's a Reason soldiers are trained with their weapons nowadays.

only someone with as much training as a longbowman is going to be able to hit as consistently as that longbowman.

I think most gunslingers want to be davy crockett, not a line soldier. wielding a rifle not a musket.

just my 2c that no one probably cares about.

off topic, but I do wonder why muskets which have huge reload times(even with cartridges) are that much more famous and just tend to have their reload times significantly shortened.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

CONTEXT

I was interested in this thread because firearms serve as a plot device in my campaign (for more details) and my group is transitioning to Second Edition. Here are the guiding principles that I followed when trying to implement firearms myself (feedback is welcome):

- I only need 2-3 types of guns, so I’m not concerned about advanced firearms.
- I’m not designing these firearms with gunslinger feats in mind.
- I think weapon category (i.e. simple, martial, or advanced) and rarity depends on your campaign setting.
- I’m assuming alchemical cartridges are used for reasonable reload times.
- I know misfires are a point of contention, but I personally enjoy the trade-off between extra damage and reliability. The increased availability of hero points allows them to be used to prevent a misfire in critical situations. I’m only ever going to have a misfire on a natural 1. You could make it even less likely by adding a subsequent flat check.
- Technically, weapons with the Broken condition cannot be used for its normal function, but you can instead allow additional attacks with the obvious risk that another misfire would destroy the firearm.
- Most ideas presented here are from this thread and based on feedback I got on Reddit.
- I found a 2E publication that described a blunderbuss.

Blunderbuss Spoiler:
It was in Cult of Cinders (p. 37). It requires three Interact actions to reload, and deals "4d6 bludgeoning damage plus 2d10 fire damage to all creatures in a 30-foot cone (DC 26 basic Reflex)." I'm personally not ready to introduce cone damage with firearms, and PC weapons are supposed to be restricted to one damage die. So, I'm ignoring this blunderbuss when designing the weapons below.

IDEAS

I’m deriving these designs from crossbows with the following benefits (+) and drawbacks (–):

(+) Increase damage dice by one step (except for musket, which instead just doesn’t lose as much range).
(–) Reduce range significantly and double range increment penalty unless master proficiency (Spread trait).
(+) Increase damage on critical hits (Fatal trait).
(–) Increase multiple attack penalty due to kickback unless you’re strong enough or fire a pistol in two hands (Recoil trait).
(+) Add half-Dexterity to damage or full dexterity if master proficiency (Burrowing trait, similar to Propulsive).
(–) Early firearms can break on a natural 1 (Unstable trait).

RANGED WEAPONS

Pistol (based on Hand Crossbow)
Damage: 1d8 P
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 1
Bulk: L
Hands: 1
Traits: Fatal 1d10, Burrowing, Recoil 2, Unstable, Spread

Blunderbuss (based on Heavy Crossbow)
Damage: 1d12 P
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: 1
Hands: 2
Traits: Fatal 1d12, Burrowing, Recoil 3, Unstable, Spread

Musket (based on Heavy Crossbow)
Damage: 1d10 P
Range: 60 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: 2
Hands: 2
Traits: Fatal 1d12, Burrowing, Recoil 3, Unstable, Spread

WEAPON TRAITS

Burrowing: A burrowing ranged weapon is capable of penetrating armor and cause extra damage, especially if you can aim for weak spots or vital areas. You add half your Dexterity modifier (if positive) to damage rolls or your full modifier if your proficiency rank with this weapon is master or higher. If you have a negative Dexterity modifier, you always add your full Dexterity modifier.

Recoil: The weapon has a kickback that throws you off for subsequent attacks. The multiple attack penalty you take on the attack immediately following a Strike with this weapon is increased by 1. This penalty is negated if you have a positive Strength modifier that is equal to or greater than the listed number or if you Strike with a one-handed weapon in two hands.

Unstable: The weapon is prone to breaking due to its fragile construction. If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll with this weapon, the weapon gains the Broken condition and its HP is reduced to its Broken Threshold.

Spread: The weapon's accuracy is limited at longer ranges unless you are highly trained. You double any penalty for attacking beyond the weapon's range increment, and attacks beyond the third range increment are impossible. You can ignore these drawbacks if your proficiency rank with this weapon is master or higher.


What if guns are advanced weapons, and you only have a misfire chance if you lack proficiency with them?

That means that people who know how to use them can use them 100% reliably, but other people who pick them up and don't know what they are doing can accidentally load too much powder or do something else that jams the gun.


Personally I'm just running a hand-crossbow as a pistol on my rogue but it looks and acts like a handcannon, except it fires silent rounds.


Tender Tendrils wrote:

What if guns are advanced weapons, and you only have a misfire chance if you lack proficiency with them?

That means that people who know how to use them can use them 100% reliably, but other people who pick them up and don't know what they are doing can accidentally load too much powder or do something else that jams the gun.

Personally, I prefer them being rare simple weapons. It let's GMs who don't like guns keep them out of the game, and GMs who introduce guns allow their players to use them without major investment.

That way, you don't need a class who's whole thing is 'I make this weapon work'. Anyone (except wizard) who gets a hold of one in a campaign can use one. Them being rare weapons means they can have good stats. My preference is high die size, low range, fatal property, reload 2, but that can be hammered out later.


Rare is too restrictive and may mess with Golarion r egions were guns are common.


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Temperans wrote:

Rare is too restrictive and may mess with Golarion r egions were guns are common.

Rare should vary by location just as uncommon does.

If you're in Alkenstar, guns are likely common. If you're in one of Alkenstar's trading partners, guns are likely uncommon. If you're in Varisia, they should be rare.

Uncommon or rare doesn't matter too much in this case. My major point is that they should be limited by rarity, and not by what class can get the best proficiency.


I mostly agree, however the way they have done rarity (until shown otherwise) doesn't work like you have it. The rules is in a weird position were "Uncommon" means it comes from a certain region, "Rare" is certain locations/group of NPCs, and "Unique" is effectively artifacts.

Adding rare to the options for region and expecting each setting to list what items got changed effectively requires multiple pages of just stating what got moved where and for which setting and what time period (as that's also important). Which honestly sounds worse than the previous system of "check when a player asks".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Honestly, with the way they've set up classes and archetypes in PF2e, I'd actually prefer Gunslinger as an Archetype instead of a class in a sort of 'weapon specialist' vein like the Aldori Duelist we've already got. Maybe add in some gun-compatible feats in weapon-specialist classes, but other than the wild west feel (or pirate feel) guns as a weapon don't actually add enough to justify a whole class based around. I also don't like the implied exclusivity of having a Gunslinger class.

Re. Bruno Grande; All that looks good except the Burrowing trait- I don't like Dex-to-damage inherent to a weapon. If the weapon's drawbacks really warrant a damage bonus, maybe just have a numerical bonus that scales with damage dice like Forceful? Plus I think Propulsive is just for Thrown weapons without melee functionality.


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Gunslinger if made properly could also work for Crossbow and Siege weapons. Everything depends on what they decide is most important, and whether they can think of enough material for such a class. I very much see it as a choice at level 1 of what type of non thrown/non standard bow ranged weapon they will use; The class name could be changed to Marksman, while the gun path is called Gunslinger (the Champion Treatment).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Tender Tendrils wrote:
What if guns are advanced weapons, and you only have a misfire chance if you lack proficiency with them?

I like this idea! It fits with my vision for firearms in my campaign, where they are simple but rare weapons. So, virtually anyone can use a firearm if they can find one, but there are penalties unless they decide to specialize.

I'm thinking that this can be achieved if a character obtains "advanced proficiency" with a firearm, such as through the Weapon Proficiency general feat. While it's unorthodox, it means that classes that are proficient with martial weapons can get rid of firearm penalties relatively faster than other classes. It also means that each firearm will need its own "advanced proficiency", which makes sense to me since each gun is unique.

Alternatively, you could set a requirement for expert or master proficiency in firearms as simple or martial weapons. I'm not a fan of this approach because you would become proficient with firearms automatically as part of class advancement. I prefer firearm proficiency to be gained from the specific investment in understanding firearms, like the Weapon Proficiency feat with firearms as advanced weapons.

Dusbringer wrote:
Re. Bruno Grande; All that looks good except the Burrowing trait- I don't like Dex-to-damage inherent to a weapon. If the weapon's drawbacks really warrant a damage bonus, maybe just have a numerical bonus that scales with damage dice like Forceful? Plus I think Propulsive is just for Thrown weapons without melee functionality.

That's a fair remark. This got me thinking into others ways to distinguish firearms from bow/crossbows. Adding a bonus to damage equal to the number of damage dice would be in line with other weapon traits, but I'm left wanting a bit more, at least for my campaign.

I realize this may not be for everyone, but for me, it strikes the right balance between flavour, excitement, and mechanics. I propose that firearms deal an extra die of damage (bludgeoning) when used within their first range increment. If this seems too powerful, you can simply gatekeep firearms in your games as you would with +1 striking weapons.

A nice side effect of the extra die of damage is that it naturally gives rise to x4 critical hits like in First Edition, so the Fatal trait isn't needed anymore. To adjust for the extra damage, I reduced each die by one step.

I'm not suggesting this is what firearms should officially become in Second Edition. I'm just brainstorming ideas to create flavourful firearms that are admittedly tailored for my campaign. As always, do whatever makes sense for your campaign.

RANGED WEAPONS

Pistol (based on Hand Crossbow)
Damage: 1d6 piercing
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 1
Bulk: L
Hands: 1
Traits: Point-blank, Recoil 2, Fragile, Spread

Blunderbuss (based on Heavy Crossbow)
Damage: 1d10 piercing
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: 1
Hands: 2
Traits: Point-blank, Recoil 3, Fragile, Spread

Musket (based on Heavy Crossbow)
Damage: 1d8 piercing
Range: 60 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: 2
Hands: 2
Traits: Point-blank, Recoil 3, Fragile, Spread

WEAPON TRAITS

Point-blank: The impact of this weapon's ammunition is much stronger than that of most ranged weapons. On a hit within the first range increment, you deal an additional die of damage (bludgeoning). This extra damage is doubled on a critical hit. Striking runes do not increase this damage.

Recoil: The weapon has a kickback that throws you off for subsequent attacks. The multiple attack penalty you take on the attack immediately following a Strike with this weapon is increased by 1. This penalty is negated if you have a positive Strength modifier that is equal to or greater than the listed number or if you Strike with a one-handed weapon in two hands.

Fragile: The weapon is prone to breaking if you don't know how to use it. If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll with this weapon, the weapon gains the Broken condition and its HP is reduced to its Broken Threshold. You do not face this risk if you are proficient with this weapon as an advanced weapon.

Spread: The weapon's accuracy is limited at longer ranges unless you are highly trained. You double any penalty for attacking beyond the weapon's range increment, and attacks beyond the third range increment are impossible. You can ignore these drawbacks if you are proficient with this weapon as an advanced weapon.


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Temperans wrote:
Gunslinger if made properly could also work for Crossbow and Siege weapons. Everything depends on what they decide is most important, and whether they can think of enough material for such a class. I very much see it as a choice at level 1 of what type of non thrown/non standard bow ranged weapon they will use; The class name could be changed to Marksman, while the gun path is called Gunslinger (the Champion Treatment).

I'm not sure there's enough for a base class there. Most of that slots perfectly into a precision edge ranger. Crossbows, siege engines, and firearms all benefit greatly from ranger feats.

Bruno Grande wrote:
RANGED WEAPONS

Personally, I'd prefer to just keep firearms simple & big dice and not even introduce new properties.

Ranged Simple weapons (uncommon)

Pistol
Damage: 1d8 piercing
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: L
Hands: 1
Traits: Fatal d12

Blunderbuss
Damage: 1d10 piercing
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: 1
Hands: 2
Traits: Fatal d12

Musket
Damage: 1d12 piercing
Range: 60 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: 2
Hands: 2
Traits: Fatal/deadly d12, volley 20ft (10ft?)


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Garretmander wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Gunslinger if made properly could also work for Crossbow and Siege weapons. Everything depends on what they decide is most important, and whether they can think of enough material for such a class. I very much see it as a choice at level 1 of what type of non thrown/non standard bow ranged weapon they will use; The class name could be changed to Marksman, while the gun path is called Gunslinger (the Champion Treatment).

I'm not sure there's enough for a base class there. Most of that slots perfectly into a precision edge ranger. Crossbows, siege engines, and firearms all benefit greatly from ranger feats.

Bruno Grande wrote:
RANGED WEAPONS

Personally, I'd prefer to just keep firearms simple & big dice and not even introduce new properties.

Ranged simple weapons (uncommon)
....

The picture of the captain with the pistol has renewed my interest in firearms in Second Edition.

Honestly I feel like guns need a way to scale outside of magic runes and this doesn't do that. I also feel that Misfires are iconic for the early weapons, and are a potential simple reason for someone to have a factor to still potentially decide to stick with a crossbow even when their plan is to fire and drop the weapon. Although, I agree one of the advantages of firearms was they are roughly simple to point and shoot, similar to a crossbow, I had issues with making reload times seem balanced, until I got the idea of making the martial weapon, but with a trait allowing them to use a crossbow skill with a penalty.

Ranged Martial Weapons (Uncommon)

Flintlock Derringer
Damage: 1d4 piercing and bludgeoning
Range: 10 ft (was contemplating 15' but seems they are normally always in 10' increments)
Reload: 2
Bulk: L
Hands: 1
Group: Slug
Traits: Simplefire(hand crossbow), Misfire, Fatal d8

Flintlock Pistol
Damage: 1d6 piercing and bludgeoning
Range: 20 ft
Reload: 2
Bulk: L
Hands: 1
Group: Slug
Traits: Simplefire(hand crossbow), Misfire, Fatal d10

Blunderbuss
Damage: 1d8 piercing and bludgeoning
Range: 30 ft
Reload: 3
Bulk: 1
Hands: 2
Group: Slug
Traits: Simplefire(crossbow), Misfire, Fatal d10

Flintlock Musket
Damage: 1d10 piercing and bludgeoning
Range: 40 ft
Reload: 3
Bulk: 2
Hands: 2
Group: Slug
Traits: Simplefire(heavy crossbow), Misfire, Fatal d12

Flintlock Rifle
Damage: 1d8 piercing and bludgeoning
Range: 60 ft
Reload: 3
Bulk: 3
Hands: 2
Group: Slug
Traits: Simplefire(heavy crossbow), Misfire, Fatal d12

Simplefire: Allows a firearm to be fired using the substitute an alternate weapon skill, but takes a 1 range increment penalty at the start. Using this option has several impacts to the weapon use. The misfire chance when doing this increases to include a roll of a natural 2; The Fatal property of the weapon is reduced by one die size; Loading a weapons becomes a 2 full round activity (six consecutive action) that requires a DC15 craft check to successfully load the weapon. On a critical success the impact of this trait to the misfire and fatal reduction are eliminated for the next shot. If you fail, the weapon is not loaded and requires another round of 3 actions, and another craft check to load it. On a critical failure, you believe it is loaded, but the shot will automatically misfire.

Misfire: These weapons can jam. By default this only happens on a roll of a natural 1. When this occurs the weapon take 1 point of damage, and becomes Jammed, meaning it is no longer loaded. It gives you a new 1 action activity Emergency Clear. Roll a Craft check DC12. On a success the weapon takes 1hp damage and becomes unjammed, but unloaded. On a critical success it becomes unjammed, no damage taken, and the activity can count as 1 action towards reloading. On a failure, the weapons is still jammed, but takes 1hp damage. On a critical failure, the weapon remains jammed, and takes 2hp damage.

Firearms as the general rule use 1 dose of black powder based on the number of hands used to fire it. (pistols take 1 dose, longarms/rifles take 2 doses) Misfires use up their powder. For simplicity misfires won't blow up, although you could allow them to blow up if the misfire's damage breaks the weapon, if you are interested in that dynamic.

The Slug weapon group is equivalent to the dagger/dart groups for critical specialization effects. I chose Piercing and Bludgeoning so that it would trigger weaknesses and resistances for both types of damage. They deliver large amounts of damage to a point, but do it with a lot of force impact.

This doesn't include the non-slug options that the blunderbus and dragon pistol used to have, which I had been working on ideas for, but this attempt, trying to focus primarily on just the minimum of Simplefire and Misfire traits along with fatal. Dealing with splash/area damage, scatter shot and effects aren't quite gelling with this option, in part due to feeling the need for a way to have the powder scale. But I thought I might throw this out to see if any of this resonates with anyone.


For the blunderbuss's scatter shot, or similar attacks, I like the idea of a high value splash attack. For example, make it 1d6 damage with a 1d4 splash that scales with damage dice increases (like striking runes) but does not count as damage dice for effects based on number of damage dice (it wouldn't normally AFAIK, since splash is a separate thing from your regular attack, but good to clarify). Maybe even switch those dice sizes. This would keep the splash damage relevant as "it's thing" into later levels. Might need further adjustment, as I would expect it to be lower single target damage than for example a crossbow or rifle.

Is this how real shotgun-style weapons work? Not really. But it's a fun way to make it unique, and using existing splash rules means not having to add on a janky cone attack or something.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My idea for scatter shots was basically had the shooter have a choice. Direct aiming at a specific target, or trying to hit items in a particular area.

If aiming at a target. You made an attack roll, could get a critical hit, everyone else in the line would take splash damage.

The other option I imagined, was each target making a reflex saving throw. The closest target to the attacker who fails the reflex roll takes a given amount of damage, anyone past that individual would take either half damage or splash damage.

I was trying to decide if a single 5' line would too narrow for field of effect. Was contemplating having it splash out past 10' for the squares on either side, but only producing splash damage.

For me, I really want firearms to be able to scale upward, without magic, meaning the blackpowder needs to have tiers at higher levels, and that needs to translate to impacting gun damage. Which my original suggestion in this thread doesn't readily allow for.

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