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First edition is pretty extreme with regards to content and it's almost impossible to get into the hobby money wise if you have a family. I currently bought into DND 5e because it's possible to get all the official content.
Because I'm extremely dissatisfied with how online content in 5e is handled (you have to buy your content 3 times) and because I got into pathfinder adventure card game I'm inclined to take a look at 2e once it's out.
However I don't want to go broke. How much content will there be per month and how expensive will it be to run games both online and offline?
All of PF2 game content will be available, free of charge, on Archives of Nethys at-launch. Presumably, they will be keeping that updated as new content comes out.
I'm not quite as sure how they will handle setting content, since PF2 assumes Golarion by default in the game mechanics. I know they combined a couple of their lines into one. If they follow a pattern similar to PF1, you should be able to pick up what you want, as you want it. Their APs are going to be monthly and are usually very high quality. Outside of that, someone else may have more info.
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First edition is pretty extreme with regards to content and it's almost impossible to get into the hobby money wise if you have a family. I currently bought into DND 5e because it's possible to get all the official content.
Because I'm extremely dissatisfied with how online content in 5e is handled (you have to buy your content 3 times) and because I got into pathfinder adventure card game I'm inclined to take a look at 2e once it's out.
However I don't want to go broke. How much content will there be per month and how expensive will it be to run games both online and offline?
I played PF1 for a long time without spending any money. Almost everything is available free and legally obline. PF2 seems to be the same.
Also, you don't need to get all the official content to run Pathfinder, even setting aside the online resources. A core rulebook and monster stats are all you need access to, be,it digital, physical, or online databases. You may want other content, but there's far more of it than you could ever actually use anyway. You only need Occult adventures if you're a player who wants to build an occult class, and you only need an adventure path if you're a GM currently running it.
Pathfinder could not be much more "pay what you want" than it already is, ti be honest.
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Like people said above, the rules will be online at release day. You don't need a huge investment to play the game, Core and Bestiary would already do it for you. You can expect monthly books in the adventure path form. That's Paizo's bread and butter and, well, they need an income to keep the business running.
Besides that, you can expect a new bestiary each year, one "lore" book (Player + GM companion) each 3~ months, and a hardcover rulebook (aka splatbooks) each semester, maybe?
Do expect a ton of accessories like different GM screens, condition cards, thematic dices and so on.
Roll20 is probably the cheapest way to do online play. As far as something like D&D beyond you would not have to purchase anything like that. An electronic character generator like beyond would be through maybe something like fantasy ground. If you are talking about the amount of books. Pathfinder will actually come out with more books at faster pace than 5e. However, beyond core rule book and bestiary the other books would be optional. You could get the PDF, which is usually much cheaper. If you decide you like the book you could pick it up.
If you were to buy everything including pawns and maps every month it would be 100-150$
Initial investment on day or release of 2E is looking at about 500$ with all the adventures and rulebooks.
I understand people have families and other commitments monetarily but you should really support the developers and buy what you can afford.
If thats just 1 rulebook a year thats cool but you should really do what you can to support what you enjoy and the company that makes it.
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Price seems roughly on par with PF1 on a per book basic, though they'll be cutting down on number of non-adventure books but making them bigger with more time invested, so the total cost of getting everything may drop a bit (ie: no more several books every month). It's definitely still gonna be pricier than 5E if only by virtue of them releasing more books, though.
As others note, the PF2 PRD will be readily available (specifically, at 2e.aonprd.com) from the first day. And will almost certainly be updated regularly.
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All of PF2 game content will be available, free of charge, on Archives of Nethys at-launch. Presumably, they will be keeping that updated as new content comes out.Will the srd include character content, spells and monsters? Basically: will I be able to look up everything online for free except for settings and adventures?
Surely will, the same way we have for 1E now. You can check basically every monster stat-block online and every rule/class rules, and it seems like we'll have it for 2e as well at day 1.
What you won't find for free is the adventure path itself, which it's more than fair.
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All of PF2 game content will be available, free of charge, on Archives of Nethys at-launch. Presumably, they will be keeping that updated as new content comes out.Sounds great, my biggest issues with playing 5e right now are
* character creation and management (currently using the free content on dndbeyond)
* quickly looking up spells and monsters
* access to digital maps for your adventureWill the srd include character content, spells and monsters? Basically: will I be able to look up everything online for free except for settings and adventures?
I'll still buy the stuff in book form because I don't like reading things on a screen.
Historically, they haven't released digital versions of their maps freely. Outside of that, you should be golden.
You can check out d20pfsrd.com for a taste of what the PF2 PRD might look like. It is an unofficial/fan-driven resource, but complies with Paizo's community use policy.
Pathfinder PDFs come with digital maps! It's one of the things I really love that 5E doesn't provide. If there's a fight, I almost surely have a pretty map to play it on.
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Sounds great, my biggest issues with playing 5e right now are
* character creation and management (currently using the free content on dndbeyond)
* quickly looking up spells and monsters
* access to digital maps for your adventureWill the srd include character content, spells and monsters? Basically: will I be able to look up everything online for free except for settings and adventures?
I'll still buy the stuff in book form because I don't like reading things on a screen.
Archives of Nethys is the site that will be doing this, and has all of that but maps for pretty much the entirety of PF1 (you can check if you like). That's almost certain not to change. All mechanics are covered (even those from adventures), just not maps or the adventures themselves.
For maps you will probably need to buy the adventures themselves, though if they follow their PF1 example, it's possible to get them in PDF for free when you purchase the physical books via subscription. Whether they'll continue that practice is a bit less than clear, though.
EDIT: Ninja'd but I'll leave it for the link.
Pathfinder PDFs come with digital maps! It's one of the things I really love that 5E doesn't provide. If there's a fight, I almost surely have a pretty map to play it on.
This, BTW, is the biggest thing that stops me from buying physical books, except when I have a subscription.
I totally understand not getting the full PDF for free without the subscription, but I wish buying the physical book from the Paizo store got you the digital maps. It's nice having physical books, but any time I'm running an older AP that isn't part of the current subscription I'll always buy the PDF, just because it has content that the physical book does not.
Yeah in my opinion getting the maps should be part of the deal with purchasing a physical book. I like to print the maps off and use them. Either that or they should start using the tiles and maps they release in the adventures. I'd love to see that.
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Just wanted to add that we already know the 2ndEd Core Rule will cover alot of thematic material that was Expansion Books in 1st Edition. Magic Barbarians, Gishes/Warpriests, Caster Clerics, variant Racial abilities and more will all be in Core. So if you just want to play with Core Rules you will be alot better off than in 1st Edition. If you're the kind of person who wants every option you obviously want to collect every book but that is psychological and the core game itself looks like it will be more than self sufficient.
Yeah in my opinion getting the maps should be part of the deal with purchasing a physical book.
Through PF1, anyway, that deal has been available: free PDFs when you subscribe. They haven't announced yet whether that will remain true for PF2.
Either that or they should start using the tiles and maps they release in the adventures. I'd love to see that.
It's my understanding that they do this to some extent in PFS scenarios. There have also been a few APs that have had tie-in flip mats, which is nice synergy.
Yeah in my opinion getting the maps should be part of the deal with purchasing a physical book.Through PF1, anyway, that deal has been available: free PDFs when you subscribe. They haven't announced yet whether that will remain true for PF2.
As I said above, that only helps if the item you want maps for is the current subscription.
If I wanted to run War for the Crown right now, the only way I could get the maps would be to buy the PDF; there's no option to get them with the physical book.
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The plan you propose would essentially take the same benefits that monthly subscribers get and give them to people who drop in every six months and buy six months worth of product. But frankly, even though the credit card processing costs are higher, we'd rather get $13 a month for six months than $78 every six months; predictable monthly income, and predictable print run sizing, are the entire point of our subscription business.
Also, we want to make sure that the best time to subscribe is always "the sooner, the better". What you're proposing effectively provides retroactive subscriber benefits, and changes the best time to subscribe to "whenever."
Finally, note that the Pathfinder Advantage *does* provide a 15% discount on Paizo books and PDFs (and a lot more) so current AP subscribers *do* actually get a better deal on picking up older products... it's just not as good a deal as if you had subscribed while those products were current.
I think for the RotRL anniversary edition, they made a separate digital map bundle available for purchase. That seems like an elegant solution, though I don't know if the fact that they haven't made any more means it wasn't cost-effective for Paizo or the staff just hasn't had the time to put the product together for other APs.
I like to support my game store so I don't do subscriptions, also I am in Canada and shipping is unreal in cost.
Perfectly understandable. Then you're going to want this thread.
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There has... basically never been a time when getting close to the full experience with Pathfinder wasn't effectively free? D20PFSRD has all of the content up in any new book about two weeks after its release with the non-OGL content scrubbed out and Archives of Nethys will come out some time after that with the official content included. I don't see any reason why this would change with PF2.
I like to support my game store so I don't do subscriptions [...]
The two need not be mutually exclusive. For instance, I have subscriptions for items that I definitely want the PDF for (rulebooks, adventure paths, etc.). Other things I purchase at my FLGS when there is no PDF or I wouldn't find it essential (cards, GM screen, etc.). This is the best of both worlds I feel.
Perfectly understandable. Then you're going to want this thread.
That thread is a decade old. I think getting a PDF download for buying the book should be a standard thing with RPG books and can be tied to a serial number or the scanner code on the back.
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Does the PDF automatically get deleted from your computer when you return the book?
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That thread is a decade old. I think getting a PDF download for buying the book should be a standard thing with RPG books and can be tied to a serial number or the scanner code on the back.Perfectly understandable. Then you're going to want this thread.
You either write the number down or take a pic of the code and hey, free PDF. It's XXI century, everybody has a high-res camera in their pocket.
You could do ones inside but then it means all books need to be wrapped in foil, folks can't browse them in store (spoiler alert: people like browsing books in stores) and the owner has an additional headache of looking after people unwrapping the book. Result = unhappy FLGS owner.
And even if it all works and you buy the book and you redeem the code and download your PDF, what happens if you return the book (spoiler alert: there are countries on this planet where law gives you a non-derogable right to return any product purchased)? Well, free PDF! Also, a unhappy FLGS owner.
The funny thing is that you declare support for your local store yet you propose a service that's perhaps the worst thing imaginable for them.
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Worse yet -- The next customer who buys the returned book won't be able to get the PDF because its code has already been redeemed.
Can you do returns off Paizo's website? Assuming you can't, giving people free PDFs with physical copies ordered would be nice, and would give people more reason to order direct instead of getting discount copies on Amazon. But I dunno that it would offset the lost sales from folks who were already paying for both.
> more reasons to order online
> not pissing off FLGS ownersChoose one.
All digital, all the time.
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> more reasons to order online
> not pissing off FLGS ownersChoose one.
I mean, taking that dichotomy to its extreme why bother selling online in the first place? Besides, as long as paizo charges for shipping, some folks will favor brick and mortar because those PDFs won't be worth the extra money to them.
This all is why I specified that I'd like to see the digital map included specifically if you buy the physical book direct from Paizo, not from other stores.
I'd really like to see formats other than PDF. Having stuff in ePUB format or reading right off a website would be fantastic, but it seems like practically no one provides material in those formats despite them being the norm for regular books for well over a decade. It's mobile friendly (important when playing live), screen reader friendly, eyeball friendly (can adjust the text size to something readable, set it to AMOLED mode, whatever), copy/paste friendly. PDF's seem to only be useful for emulating the look and feel of the physical book, which I just don't care about when I'm reading something on a computer or phone.
Does ePUB handle images well? I'm not really familiar with the format...
I suspect the main reason PDF is the default is because it's a printing format; I'd guess that the PDF files are basically the same thing Paizo sends to the printers when they want the print copies made, which is why it's so easy for them to provide. :)
Does ePUB handle images well? I'm not really familiar with the format...
I suspect the main reason PDF is the default is because it's a printing format; I'd guess that the PDF files are basically the same thing Paizo sends to the printers when they want the print copies made, which is why it's so easy for them to provide. :)
It handles it well, just as well as your browser does. You can think of it like a specialized HTML file, which you open in a specialized browser called an ereader.
It's the preferred format for ebooks as it lets the application control how the text is presented, so the same text could even be presented in a wide variety of formats. Blind players can use screen readers much easier (the screen-reader friendly PDF isn't as big an improvement as it could be), specific sections can be printed off a regular printer without murdering your ink, you can have it displayed in an AMOLED friendly format if your phone or tablet supports that, you can adjust the text size so that it's comfortable and readable. And they're absurdly easy to make, certainly easier than a PDF, as you don't need to do much in terms of fancy formatting to get it to work. Pages begin and end basically when you want them to, and are really only dotted lines that a lot of readers wont' show by default anyways, so it won't mess up page references.
And because of all this, it's actually very trivial to keep the ePUB version of the rulebooks completely up to date with changes, it could be automatically generated as they update http://2e.aonprd.com/.
So it's a bit surprising that this wasn't used during the playtest in lieu of making a fancy PDF and print editions that would be immediately outdated and confusing within weeks of publication. Editing a PDF for printing is labor intensive and expensive, but I guess they really wanted feedback on the proposed layout of the physical book as well.
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And because of all this, it's actually very trivial to keep the ePUB version of the rulebooks completely up to date with changes, it could be automatically generated as they update http://2e.aonprd.com/.
A sidenote: Paizo has outsourced the PRD, so "they" won't be the ones updating it.
There is an entry in the FAQ about why Paizo has found the ePUB format unsuitable for their rulebooks.
And because of all this, it's actually very trivial to keep the ePUB version of the rulebooks completely up to date with changes, it could be automatically generated as they update http://2e.aonprd.com/.A sidenote: Paizo has outsourced the PRD, so "they" won't be the ones updating it.
There is an entry in the FAQ about why Paizo has found the ePUB format unsuitable for their rulebooks.
Yeah, the lack of extraneous formatting is partly the point. A lot of Paizo's weird formatting is why they're so unreadable to begin with on anything other than a computer screen or a physical book. The screenreader-friendly PDF they put out would have worked just fine as an ePUB.
The website at least will hopefully be mobile-friendly, and some helpful soul might scrape the site to make an ePUB if Paizo won't.
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I mean, taking that dichotomy to its extreme why bother selling online in the first place? Besides, as long as paizo charges for shipping, some folks will favor brick and mortar because those PDFs won't be worth the extra money to them.
In large part because some people do not live within reasonable range of a physical store that sells these sorts of things, Paizo would still like to be able to sell to them, and no FLGS can fault them for that.
The way it works with the Bits and Mortar scheme is that you give the store your email address on purchasing an item and then you're sent a link to download the pdf(s) of the items you bought. As long as you keep the email then that should stay usable. Not that this helps with Paizo products, but other companies do it successfully.
Paizo should get with the program then. Not intended as a critique, I really think there would be a lot to be gained with this kind of policy. I think it's a very good idea if you buy dead tree hardcovers at a nearby store but understandably also want pdfs.
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The way it works with the Bits and Mortar scheme is that you give the store your email address on purchasing an item and then you're sent a link to download the pdf(s) of the items you bought. As long as you keep the email then that should stay usable. Not that this helps with Paizo products, but other companies do it successfully.Paizo should get with the program then. Not intended as a critique, I really think there would be a lot to be gained with this kind of policy. I think it's a very good idea if you buy dead tree hardcovers at a nearby store but understandably also want pdfs.
Vic Wertz on Bits and Mortar in 2011
As I said, I think that this is different enough from the concept of remote subscription selling that Paizo would need to consider it separately.You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.
And you're also correct that even if we solved that issue, we'd still have an issue with security when it comes to the Bits & Mortar implementation. While some of the things you suggest we could do to get around that are potentially reasonable, they're also a pretty big shift from what Bits & Mortar is actually doing.
It's possible that Paizo is reconsidering the way they did things in P1e and that's one reason why they haven't announced if the free PDF is remaining a part of the subscription. But as long as they still value the subscription model of business, they're going to have to retain some reason for people to subscribe directly.
Vic Wertz on Bits and Mortar in 2011
It's possible that Paizo is reconsidering the way they did things in P1e and that's one reason why they haven't announced if the free PDF is remaining a part of the subscription. But as long as they still value the subscription model of business, they're going to have to retain some reason for people to subscribe...As I said, I think that this is different enough from the concept of remote subscription selling that Paizo would need to consider it separately.You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.
And you're also correct that even if we solved that issue, we'd still have an issue with security when it comes to the Bits & Mortar implementation. While some of the things you suggest we could do to get around that are potentially reasonable, they're also a pretty big shift from what Bits & Mortar is actually doing.
Mmm. This is interesting. So Paizo depends on subscriptions much more than I thought was the case. That means they can't hand out free pdfs if you buy their products at the store.
Okay, then it's a matter of choosing your poison.
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Obviously none of us can know for sure, but I've heard it described as the Adventure Path subscription in particular being Paizo's flagship product, and almost literally everything else existing mainly to support that.
And because of all this, it's actually very trivial to keep the ePUB version of the rulebooks completely up to date with changes, it could be automatically generated as they update http://2e.aonprd.com/.A sidenote: Paizo has outsourced the PRD, so "they" won't be the ones updating it.
There is an entry in the FAQ about why Paizo has found the ePUB format unsuitable for their rulebooks.
Yeah, the lack of extraneous formatting is partly the point. A lot of Paizo's weird formatting is why they're so unreadable to begin with on anything other than a computer screen or a physical book. The screenreader-friendly PDF they put out would have worked just fine as an ePUB.
The website at least will hopefully be mobile-friendly, and some helpful soul might scrape the site to make an ePUB if Paizo won't.
I think it would be in line with the OGL for a third party to publish versions of the rulebooks formatted as epub or any other ebook format, as long as this keeps to content declared as Open Gaming Content with no artwork or trade dress and so on.
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Vic Wertz on Bits and Mortar in 2011
It's possible that Paizo is reconsidering the way they did things in P1e and that's one reason why they haven't announced if the free PDF is remaining a part of the subscription. But as long as they still value the subscription model of business, they're going to have to retain some reason for people to subscribe...As I said, I think that this is different enough from the concept of remote subscription selling that Paizo would need to consider it separately.You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.
And you're also correct that even if we solved that issue, we'd still have an issue with security when it comes to the Bits & Mortar implementation. While some of the things you suggest we could do to get around that are potentially reasonable, they're also a pretty big shift from what Bits & Mortar is actually doing.
Mmm. This is interesting. So Paizo depends on subscriptions much more than I thought was the case. That means they can't hand out free pdfs if you buy their products at the store.
Okay, then it's a matter of choosing your poison.
What I would be interested in is PDF-only subscriptions, where you get all the benefits of the traditional subscriptions except free PDFs (obviously). This way I get my PDFs with no thought required, Paizo has the same predictability as any subscription, and I do not need to pay high shipping costs that just do not go into Paizo's pocket.
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And because of all this, it's actually very trivial to keep the ePUB version of the rulebooks completely up to date with changes, it could be automatically generated as they update http://2e.aonprd.com/.A sidenote: Paizo has outsourced the PRD, so "they" won't be the ones updating it.
There is an entry in the FAQ about why Paizo has found the ePUB format unsuitable for their rulebooks.
Yeah, the lack of extraneous formatting is partly the point. A lot of Paizo's weird formatting is why they're so unreadable to begin with on anything other than a computer screen or a physical book. The screenreader-friendly PDF they put out would have worked just fine as an ePUB.
The website at least will hopefully be mobile-friendly, and some helpful soul might scrape the site to make an ePUB if Paizo won't.
Paizo’s ‘weird formatting’ ? What does that mean??
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Paizo’s ‘weird formatting’ ? What does that mean??And because of all this, it's actually very trivial to keep the ePUB version of the rulebooks completely up to date with changes, it could be automatically generated as they update http://2e.aonprd.com/.A sidenote: Paizo has outsourced the PRD, so "they" won't be the ones updating it.
There is an entry in the FAQ about why Paizo has found the ePUB format unsuitable for their rulebooks.
Yeah, the lack of extraneous formatting is partly the point. A lot of Paizo's weird formatting is why they're so unreadable to begin with on anything other than a computer screen or a physical book. The screenreader-friendly PDF they put out would have worked just fine as an ePUB.
The website at least will hopefully be mobile-friendly, and some helpful soul might scrape the site to make an ePUB if Paizo won't.
Two column with interleaved sidebars, pictures and maps all make it harder to read on a text reader, in my experience. The statblocks are also difficult for readers to parse properly.
it's hard to reference a page number if what you're referring to is in ePub format.
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What I would be interested in is PDF-only subscriptions, where you get all the benefits of the traditional subscriptions except free PDFs (obviously). This way I get my PDFs with no thought required, Paizo has the same predictability as any subscription, and I do not need to pay high shipping costs that just do not go into Paizo's pocket.
In the past, Vic Wertz has noted that a shift of consumers from physical to digital-only has the potential to harm their business, if print runs get smaller and cost-per-volume increases.
We have no plans to offer PDF-only subscriptions.
The main benefit to customers of a PDF subscription vs. individual PDF sales is that a subscription would be more convenient for them. But let's examine the reality of that:
- Without a PDF subscription, people who only buy PDFs come to our site once a month after they hear that the new volume is shipping (which we always mention in our weekly newsletter, so if they check that regularly, they won't miss it). They add the PDF to their cart and check out, and download the PDF.
- With a PDF subscription, the process would be very similar—we'd send you an email that it was released, but you'd still have to come to the site and download it. Ok, you'd be making a few less clicks because you can skip the checkout process, but realistically, we're talking about pretty much the same amount of time and effort invested on the customer end.
So let's be honest here: convenience is not drastically improved. The *real* difference is that, presumably, PDF-only subscribers would get their PDF without having to wait for the regular onsale date.
However, every time this topic comes up, we hear from people who say that if we offered a PDF-only subscription, they would drop their print subscription.
Now, print costs are tied strongly to volume—the more copies you print, the less each copy costs. So, the heart of the question for Paizo is this: Would offering a PDF-only subscription cause enough lost print sales that it would noticeably affect print run sizes, which in turn would increase costs (including, possibly, the cover price)?
There are only two potential answers to this question: yes, it would noticeably affect print run sizes; or no, it would not noticeably affect print run sizes.
If the answer is no, there's no problem here; in fact, we might even attract enough PDF subscribers to increase our revenues. (I doubt those increases would be significant, though, since people who are likely to subscribe are already probably buying most of the PDFs individually now.)
However, if the answer is yes, then offering PDF-only subscriptions could cause irreparable harm to our business.
So we have to look at risk vs. reward. The reward for our customers is the ability to get a copy of the PDF about a week earlier than they can right now, and the reward for us is probably not going to be dramatically high. The risk, however, is damaging, or even potentially *crippling* our main business. That's not a risk worth taking.
It's worth noting that this was in response to a suggestion which posited no discounts or other subscription perks other than (possible) early access.