I just found out about a multi-publisher effort to support local gaming stores. It is called Bits & Mortar. The aim of Bits of Mortar is to ensure that PDF gaming does not kill off local gaming stores. Here is the blurb from their homepage:
Bits and Mortar is a pro-retailer, pro-brick-and-mortar, pro-PDF, pro-eBook initiative backed by several game publishers (find out who). We love real, physical brick and mortar game stores, and we want to see them survive — and thrive — even as the digital content options for gaming become more prevalent.
Plenty of customers out there want the best of both worlds. They want the easy portability of an e-book, and the lasting durability of one made out of paper, glue, and ink. They want to be able to support their favorite local game stores, and they want to be able to support their favorite publishers. The Bits and Mortar initiative is all about making sure they don’t have to choose one or the other. We want them to choose both, every time.
- If a customer buys a book published by a Bits & Mortar publisher (see the list of publishers here) from their local game store, and that book is available online as a combined print and PDF bundle, we will give them the PDF at no additional charge. It’s a free value-add and a thank you from the publisher for supporting their local game store.
- Better yet, we will make it possible for that local game store to give the PDF to the customer directly, keeping the sale completely “in house”.
- When a B&M publisher has a product up for preorders online, offering a free PDF for those who preorder, we will work with retail stores to provide that same offer in-store. Your customers won’t have to choose between getting access to something early online and supporting their favorite store — they’ll get to do both in one place.
Interested? Read more on how to sign up.
The following publishers have already signed up:
- 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
- Arc Dream Publishing
- Bully Pulpit Games
- Cellar Games LLC
- Cobweb Games
- Contested Ground Studios
- Cubicle 7
- Dig a Thousand Holes Publishing
- Engine Publishing
- Evil Hat Publishing
- Galileo Games Inc
- Interaction Point Games
- Jon Brazier Entertainment
- Lamentations of the Flame Princess
- Mongoose Publishing
- Nevermet Press
- Pelgrane Press
- Rogue Games
- Two Scooters Press
Would Paizo be willing to sign up to something like this?
They've stated that they won't.
As a reason, they've stated that they are unwilling to let their digital content not go through their proprietary watermarking process, and there's no way to do that via the Bits & Mortar system.
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I just want to point out that Pathfinder Compatible Publishers 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming and Jon Brazer Enterprises proudly participate in Bits and Mortar.
They've stated that they won't.
As a reason, they've stated that they are unwilling to let their digital content not go through their proprietary watermarking process, and there's no way to do that via the Bits & Mortar system.
Have they specifically mentioned Bits & Mortar or are you talking about what Robert linked to? (That is about local stores reselling PDF subscriptions and is a similar but different issue.)
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/general/tornBetweenSub scriptionsAndSupportingMyFLGS&page=1&source=search#48
Good old Vic Wertz, taking the time to explain why he can't say "yes" instead of just saying "no". There are a few people in the RPG industry who take the extra time to communicate with fans and I really appreciate them all (even when they don't have good news for me).
That thread is about local stores selling PDF subscriptions, rather than giving away free PDFs with dead tree books.
I think the two issues are slightly different. Let me highlight some of Vic's obstacles:
Dealing with the schedule of subscriptions vs printed product: This is not what the Bits & Mortar initiative is about. I buy a Pathfinder module in my local store, and either get a PDF copy from them or a download link to get it when I get home. A lot of Vic's logistical issues were dealing with that - so those issues vanish.
Dealing with payments between the local store and Paizo: Again, this is not what the B&M initiative is about. The deal is buy a printed product - get given a PDF free. Money may not need to change hands. There would be a cost to giving away free PDFs. Paizo already supports Free RPG Day, so would probably need to consider the financial hit on a similar basis. Local stores pay to be part of Free RPG Day (and I'm pretty sure that none of that cash gets to Paizo) but with PDFs being non-physical items, it would probably be a lot cheaper (per unit) to support this. (Essentially the economic issues boil down to: can Paizo build an economic model that enables them to sell dead tree product that includes a free PDF in the cost to the end user.)
Watermarks and Paizo's security: Maybe this isn't handled as well as Paizo would like, by the B&M system. However, Vic already seems to have worked out that it would be solved if retailers and customers went through Paizo's internal system. (Maybe that restricts Bits & Mortar users to going through Paizo, but "free PDF via Paizo download" is more attractive to a customer than "no free PDF".)
Working out who is a "real" retailer: Bits & Mortar have this covered. Paizo could leave authentication to them and step in after they do the work.
Retailers needing to have a Paizo account: Retailers that sell Paizo stuff should have an account here. They should be being pro-active and learning about the product that they sell. They should be networking to ensure that Pathfinder fans know the location of their store. Bits & Mortar is already getting them to sign up and have accounts on their website, if a second signup to access Paizo's bespoke watermarked PDFs was required, I think that many would go for it. Paizo has a "Subscriber" flag for people on the message boards, how about having a "proud Paizo retailer" flag for B&M authenticated stores and how about having a system where I can use the Paizo website to find out who sells Paizo products near me? These local stores are supposed to be places where I can be "sold" on using Pathfinder. Any improvement to the relationship between stores and Paizo would be a good thing. (And if one retailer doesn't want to go for it, that isn't a reason to not allow the rest of them to go for it. The stores who do get onboard could be given advertising packs to download and that might help them sell more stuff to customers.)
Customers needing to have a Paizo account: Again, I don't see this as a problem for customers. I go to my local store and they tell me that if I sign up to Paizo, they will email me a code that allows me to download a watermarked PDF of that book - for free. Most RPG groups search the interwebs for stuff that goes with their games. I think that most Pathfinder groups will contain at least one person who has visited the Paizo website. And there are already Pathfinder freebies that you need to sign up to get. A Bits & Mortar freebie could just fit into that chain. And Paizo's tracking means that I get errata and updated versions of PDFs, that is all the more reason for me to sign up. (There would be extra work to work out that someone was entitled to a free PDF, but the rest of the structure has already been designed by Paizo. In some ways, they are more advanced than Bits & Mortar, because they could track freebies and calculate how well their products were doing on a location by location basis.)
Ensuring the customer has bought something from the store: This is one of the larger logistical issues. I get the impression that Bits & Mortar are partially going on an honour system and trusting retailers to "not be a dick". But I'm sure that retailers get delivery notes. If Paizo need more tracking then a retailer that buys four copies of a product could scan in the delivery note to prove that they bought them. Tracking could mean that the retailer who provides proof of purchase can have four PDF vouchers added to their Paizo account and could give those vouchers to the four customers that buy the dead-tree copies. I'm not sure the system would be full-proof, as it is possible that someone out there would try to take back the printed product for a refund, and it wouldn't be possible to "delete" their free PDF. (And adding a requirement to prove that dead-tree product has been bought would add a level of admin to the system. If B&M already handle this, then it could be routed via them. But if B&M don't go up to Paizo's standards, that would give them a choice of trusting stores to "not be a dick" or paying for their own admin.)
As I said, I think that this is different enough from the concept of remote subscription selling that Paizo would need to consider it separately.
I know that Paizo already support Free RPG Day, so I believe that they would be prepared to consider the concept. The main question would be: "how many people currently buy both dead-tree and PDF versions of things?" because Paizo would loose some money if it chose to support local retailers.
But that cost would be balanced against the fact that this is an area where Bits & Mortar publishers (and potentially Paizo) can use 21st Century technology to try to help keep local retailers in business. And with local retailers being the "front line" of RPG merchandising, I think there is an economic advantage to keeping as many of them as possible "alive".
I'll be very interested to see what (if anything) Paizo can do.
I just want to point out that Pathfinder Compatible Publishers 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming and Jon Brazer Enterprises proudly participate in Bits and Mortar.
Thanks Dale. I really hope that this has reciprocal benefits to companies that have jumped in to support this experiment. Having both dead-tree and PDF versions of a product really adds value to customers. I do hope that publishers that provide this get supported in the retail stores.
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Too little.... too late. If Brick and Mortar stores like Barns and Noble and Bordersm can't survive in the new economy, what makes you think that niche book stores will fare any better? I also note that all of the signers are essentially third base minor league title holders, not a single major publisher among them. It's a worthy goal but the lack of the big boys will doom them just as much as the League of Nations was doomed by the U.S. refusing to sign on board.Many Paizo customers also get thier material by subscription... the free PDF bonus being too good to pass up.
Perhaps Paizo could support this in a limited way by offering those items which are sold as dead tree format only.
FLGS != B&N or Borders, both of which try to cater to a huge swath of potential customers and tastes and suffer for it with a burden of unsold, overpriced goods that most consumers prefer to purchase elsewhere (Borders $19.99 CDs, I'm looking at you). Sure, it's a rough time to be a b&m retailer, but there are some comic/gaming stores that are turning a profit and keeping up with sales from prior years - the fact that they foster a certain community of loyal repeat customers helps. The closest the big chain retailers come to this is via rewards programs (which I gather partially contributed to Borders' recent financial issues).
I'm surprised Bits & Mortar didn't approach Paizo straight off (assuming they didn't and we didn't hear about it) and try to work out a system that can interoperate with Paizo's existing digital sales; it would seem to me that Paizo has a big, big chunk of the RPG PDF market (and many of the publishers in that list sell through Paizo.com). If they could make it work, though, I would be much, much more likely to buy dead wood products, whereas currently I lean towards PDFs because they're cheaper and more portable. I enjoy having a physical copy of the books, but oftentimes price is the chief determinant in my purchases (as I imagine it is for most). From Paizo's perspective, if this were adopted, I wonder if the likely uptick in book+PDF sales through FLGS would offset the loss in revenue from these not being direct sales (they have to share profits with the FLGS and distributor, after all)?
Too little.... too late. If Brick and Mortar stores like Barns and Noble and Bordersm can't survive in the new economy, what makes you think that niche book stores will fare any better? I also note that all of the signers are essentially third base minor league title holders, not a single major publisher among them. It's a worthy goal but the lack of the big boys will doom them just as much as the League of Nations was doomed by the U.S. refusing to sign on board.
Mongoose Publishing has signed up. I think they count as a major publisher, even if the others do not.
I don't know if the scheme (or the publishers) is the thing you think will be doomed, but perhaps the offer of a free PDF will sweeten the deal, when punters are browsing printed books in their local store. And if we buy books published from certain companies, the store is more likely to reorder them.
Many Paizo customers also get thier material by subscription... the free PDF bonus being too good to pass up.
So I hear. But there are a lot of customers who do not subscribe, for one reason or another.
Perhaps Paizo could support this in a limited way by offering those items which are sold as dead tree format only.
The scheme only applies to dead tree format products. You have to actually buy a printed product to get the same product as a free PDF. (Customers would still need to come to Paizo for all of the PDF-only products.)
FLGS != B&N or Borders, both of which try to cater to a huge swath of potential customers and tastes and suffer for it with a burden of unsold, overpriced goods that most consumers prefer to purchase elsewhere (Borders $19.99 CDs, I'm looking at you). Sure, it's a rough time to be a b&m retailer, but there are some comic/gaming stores that are turning a profit and keeping up with sales from prior years - the fact that they foster a certain community of loyal repeat customers helps. The closest the big chain retailers come to this is via rewards programs (which I gather partially contributed to Borders' recent financial issues).
The thing about stores like Borders is that they don't actually care about gaming and will drop RPG material, like a stone, as soon as it becomes less profitable than other types of books.
Specialist RPG stores are more "valuable" to companies like Paizo, because they actively market RPG products (rather than just shifting them) and RPG stores are much more likely to arrange game demonstrations that bring new people into the hobby.
I think this is the reason that Paizo already support things like Free RPG day, which is aimed at those specific stores.
I'm surprised Bits & Mortar didn't approach Paizo straight off (assuming they didn't and we didn't hear about it) and try to work out a system that can interoperate with Paizo's existing digital sales; it would seem to me that Paizo has a big, big chunk of the RPG PDF market (and many of the publishers in that list sell through Paizo.com). If they could make it work, though, I would be much, much more likely to buy dead wood products, whereas currently I lean towards PDFs because they're cheaper and more portable. I enjoy having a physical copy of the books, but oftentimes price is the chief determinant in my purchases (as I imagine it is for most). From Paizo's perspective, if this were adopted, I wonder if the likely uptick in book+PDF sales through FLGS would offset the loss in revenue from these not being direct sales (they have to share profits with the FLGS and distributor, after all)?
Bits & Mortar seems to be fairly new (I only heard about it from one of my local stores - hello to Leisure Games in London :-) - today).
It is possible that Bits & Mortar have asked Paizo.
From my understanding, a B&M deal would only apply to Paizo's internal printed RPG material, to the fact that they are so successful at selling PDFs for third parties should not come into the deal. (Although if third parties started doing a print+PDF deal via B&M that might have an impact.)
I'm actually the other way around from you. I find PDFs useful for searching for things, but find dead tree versions of books much much easier to read, so I choose printed books. For me, a PDF is a "backup" to a printed book that I can carry around on a memory stick - not an alternative to one.
And I'm a "browse before I buy" customer, so this sort of deal is far far more likely to get me buying more Paizo stuff than one of their blind-faith subscription plans.
I see a role for both printed products and PDF products, but I think the way that punters have previously been invited to choose between print and PDF means that the two formats have kind of been competing with each other. If PDF sales eat into print sales too much, they could make the format non-viable. And if publishers get forced to go PDF-only, it isn't going to be in the interest of local RPG stores to promote their products.
The future is a big unknown. Is Paizo better off with retailers or without them? Only time can tell.
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The future is a big unknown. Is Paizo better off with retailers or without them? Only time can tell.
I don't think that's even a question - retailers increase their revenue, give them increased consumer awareness, etc. It certainly gives them more presence in the market than relying on word of mouth or Google to lead people to the website.
The question is whether offering free PDFs with retail purchases will increase sales enough to be worth their time and energy, or if they're better off sticking with the subscription scheme currently in place.
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The only way for Paizo to get involved in a program like this, I think would be to suspend their subscription plan, simply because that is part of why people subscribe to the plans that Paizo has in the first place. Paizo would have to get a lot of people mad should they stop the subscription plans they have to support the Brick and Mortar stores further then they are already.
I do not think that this is a bad plan but one can not expect Paizo to stop what they are currently doing successfully right now to participate. The ones that ARE participating right now is something I will definitely enjoy in the future and this will also possibly increase the sales for the 3rd party products I would not normally buy myself much less other people too.
Good luck
Too little.... too late. If Brick and Mortar stores like Barns and Noble and Bordersm can't survive in the new economy, what makes you think that niche book stores will fare any better?
In my opinion, Borders and B&N need to go. Yes, need. Short reason: 10 years ago, if Borders/B&N didn't like your book, it didn't get published. You could have written it, altered it the publisher's specifications, been forced to agree to art that had nothing to do with your book, had to change character's names and descriptions to go with the latest whim the publisher had, ... and then when all was done, Borders and B&N said, "We're not going to carry that book. There's no market for it." So all your hard work and long compromises went to nothing.
Amazon and iBooks are a much less discriminating retailer. They carry anything (unless they don't like the publisher, which in that case, the author goes publisher shopping, or self-publishes).
Local game stores will survive for many reasons: lower overhead (most are an owner operated deal and don't have an office building full of people that do not directly contribute to the bottom line), responding to local desires (B/N would have someone that ordered for the whole company while a game store orders for that one store), many carry small publishers (I don't have ISBNs for my books, they're to expensive, so my books aren't available at Amazon, but your local game store can order them) ... I think you get the idea.
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Bigmac,
You mentioned that the subscription plan goes away so to speak with the initiative that you have planned regarding Paizo becoming involved. Those of us that do subscribe would do what then drive to the brick and mortar store to get the PDF's? Then why would any one subscribe with Paizo any longer?
This is what Vic was talking about. You can't just make those go away for them. It is one of the perks of subscribing AND mitigating the shipping cost. This is a plan that Paizo has in place, expecting them to just up and change that plan is not a great idea what so ever on many levels, on a marketing level though there is way to much at stake for Paizo to stop now.
I am not saying this is a bad idea for what you are wanting to do but this is not something IMHO that Paizo would be interested in. It will help the sales for the smaller companies though that you are getting involved, with the brick and mortar stores and printed issues and getting a free PDF is a great thing and should more then increase their sales.
I like my FLGS, even though it is't that local to me and always make a point of dropping in when I'm in town. I also love discovering someone else's FLGs when visiting a new area. There's just something special about a store packed full of rpgs, minis, dice and boardgames that makes me feel like a kid in a candy store. I can get a little of the same buzz when shopping online but it's good to be able to handle the product and discuss it with the store owner before parting with my cash. At the moment I have several subscriptions with Paizo so that I guarantee getting my fix of new Pathfinder product and getting the pdf of what I buy is a big plus. However, if I was a more frequent visitor to my flgs and they carried everything Pathfinder then I'd happily pay a bit more for my hard copy if I was getting the pdf too - and wouldn't that just require an individual code being given out with each book that the buyer could use to access the pdf to go with their purchase?
Blah Blah.. my business model is threatened by new technology. So you all should support me so I don't have to adapt to reality.
Did I sum it up right?
Look, the internet is removing the need for middlemen. Now a days you can purchase a lot of products directly from the manufacturer. If you're a middleman that has made a living off reselling other peoples products but aren't actually producing anything yourself, You might want to consider a change of careers. It sucks but it's reality.
Do I enjoy delving through the dusty shelves of local gaming store. Sure but not when I can buy the product online for 10-20$ off the cover price.
Currently the primary benefit to me as a consumer, that Brick and Mortar stores offer, is their collection of older products that are no longer widely for sale.
In the near future brick and mortar stores are going to need to come up with a different revenue source than strict product sales if they want to survive.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Blah Blah.. my business model is threatened by new technology. So you all should support me so I don't have to adapt to reality...
In the near future brick and mortar stores are going to need to come up with a different revenue source than strict product sales if they want to survive.
Very true. A tad too sarcastic, at first, but the ending statement is entirely accurate.
Gaming stores can no longer be the dusty, dirty, dingy, low rent locations they used to be, staffed by opinionated, elitist gamers who have no real interest in customer service. While I admit it would be fun to have a PDF source support the sales my store makes, I will never expect it, nor will I pin my survival on it. Instead, I'll build a model that finds a way to hold a customer's interest beyond mere purchases of games. Especially when the margin on those games (even at full retail) is not even close to enough to make current brick and mortar stores viable.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, I'll have to let the Guardtower know about this.
I *like* dead tree products. If Catalyst had anything approaching a production schedule I'd be pushing for them to adopt the Paizo model. Heck if Catalyst got involved with the Bits and Mortar project I'd be a happy camper.
If I can get the Guardtower to look this over, it might mean more sales for 4WG and JBE.
Whereas I *hate* dead tree products. I buy content, and object to having to pay more for an obsolete storage medium when I can get it electronically, direct from the content producer.
Record shops, bookshops, FLGS - your days are numbered.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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FLGS - your days are numbered.
Do you never play games at your local shop? Do you never meet new players at your local shop? Do you not look for tips on painting miniatures or new ways to play your favorite card games? Are you not even remotely interested in the newer games coming across the ocean from Europe?
There *is* a reason for game stores to exist, and even ways for them to thrive. Moreover, do not think that role playing games are the only reason a store is able to pay its bills. RPGs are but a slice of the pie, so PDF sales should not be solely responsible for the death of the game store.
But I find it odd that some people are so willing to just dismiss stores out of hand, and even cheer for the death of a piece of their local economy.
FLGS - your days are numbered.Do you never play games at your local shop? Do you never meet new players at your local shop? Do you not look for tips on painting miniatures or new ways to play your favorite card games? Are you not even remotely interested in the newer games coming across the ocean from Europe?
There *is* a reason for game stores to exist, and even ways for them to thrive. Moreover, do not think that role playing games are the only reason a store is able to pay its bills. RPGs are but a slice of the pie, so PDF sales should not be solely responsible for the death of the game store.
But I find it odd that some people are so willing to just dismiss stores out of hand, and even cheer for the death of a piece of their local economy.
I am already in Europe. I suspect that may account for some of the difference in attitude towards FLGS. In the UK where I am originally from, and in the other places in Europe I have experienced, they don't really exist like they do in the US. They certainly don't have room to play. They tend, where they exist at all, to be small, cramped, dusty, crammed with stock, and generally unpleasant places. They are places you go to buy stuff, not to hang out.
Since I can now buy my stuff cheaper in a more convenient form online, why on earth would I miss them?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I am already in Europe. I suspect that may account for some of the difference in attitude towards FLGS. In the UK where I am originally from, and in the other places in Europe I have experienced, they don't really exist like they do in the US. They certainly don't have room to play. They tend, where they exist at all, to be small, cramped, dusty, crammed with stock, and generally unpleasant places. They are places you go to buy stuff, not to hang out.
Since I can now buy my stuff cheaper in a more convenient form online, why on earth would I miss them?
Point made, and exactly echoes what I said above. Those business models are no longer viable.
I have to admit, I'm surprised that stores don't have room to play in Europe. We in the States tend to be under the impression that Europe is the Mecca of game playing, and all game stores there are thriving breeding grounds for creativity and fun. Thanks for crushing my future travel dreams...
Retail space is expensive. Certainly if you want it to be on a major shopping street close to public transport it is. Maybe it will be cheaper on a quieter street, but then there may be no public transport, and it is out of the way.
Business taxes are high.
If you can only afford to rent a small space, do you
a) fill it with tables and chairs?
b) cram in more stock in an attempt to increase your turnover?
In any case, why on earth would you want to play games in a shop, when there are good cafes everywhere to meet your friends and play?
I have visited the US style shop, although I don't know how representative it was. It was in a large, out of town shopping center, that could only be reached by driving a car. It had lots of space, with stock around the outside of the room, and play space in the middle. The center in which it was located was open very late.
I doubt any of those conditions would be commonly replicated in Europe.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Why on earth would you want to play games in a shop, when there are good cafes everywhere to meet your friends and play?
I'm banking on being the answer to that question. :-D
Thanks for the insight, though.
Retail space is expensive. Certainly if you want it to be on a major shopping street close to public transport it is. Maybe it will be cheaper on a quieter street, but then there may be no public transport, and it is out of the way.
Business taxes are high.
If you can only afford to rent a small space, do you
a) fill it with tables and chairs?
b) cram in more stock in an attempt to increase your turnover?In any case, why on earth would you want to play games in a shop, when there are good cafes everywhere to meet your friends and play?
I have visited the US style shop, although I don't know how representative it was. It was in a large, out of town shopping center, that could only be reached by driving a car. It had lots of space, with stock around the outside of the room, and play space in the middle. The center in which it was located was open very late.
I doubt any of those conditions would be commonly replicated in Europe.
In the US, most brick and mortar stores also function as the cafe, since those do not exist like they do in Europe. The game store you describe is fairly typical, but most I have seen do not stay in shopping malls long because of high rent.
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FLGS - your days are numbered.Do you never play games at your local shop? Do you never meet new players at your local shop? Do you not look for tips on painting miniatures or new ways to play your favorite card games? Are you not even remotely interested in the newer games coming across the ocean from Europe?
There *is* a reason for game stores to exist, and even ways for them to thrive. Moreover, do not think that role playing games are the only reason a store is able to pay its bills. RPGs are but a slice of the pie, so PDF sales should not be solely responsible for the death of the game store.
But I find it odd that some people are so willing to just dismiss stores out of hand, and even cheer for the death of a piece of their local economy.
I do not think that anyone truly wants their local FLGS to die and go away unless there is some sort of animosity involved.
Personally I have about 5 of them near me and then when I lived in another state I had one there that I went to as well... and to this day still contact at least once a week.
I go to two of them here too on a weekly basis and still personally would not want them to carry Paizo PDF's for reasons I have stated above. I love my FLGS's and will support them beyond measure but Paizo is in it to make as much money as possible but for the same token a FLGS is too... so the idea stated in the OP is a great one and I think needs to be implemented for the companies that already are :)
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Blah Blah.. my business model is threatened by new technology. So you all should support me so I don't have to adapt to reality...
In the near future brick and mortar stores are going to need to come up with a different revenue source than strict product sales if they want to survive.
At least in the Atlanta area, many FLGS's are diversifying into (a) coffee, pastries and other cafe fare, (b) rentable miniature armies for folks who don't want to maintain their own, or (c) Internet-cafe style services with high geek representation like rentable gaming PCs, multiplayer FPS tournaments, poker nights, or geek trivia contests.
Your 'don't have to adapt to reality' comment is a little out of line; b&m stores still have much to offer content producers in terms of consumer presence and logistics for physical goods such as miniatures, dice, map packs and the 'dead tree' material that some gamers prefer, which can't be distributed digitally for no cost. So it's not like they bring nothing to the table. Yes, the revenue for a direct sale is usually more for the producer, but the cost is typically the same for the consumer. Publishers give retail the kinds of discounts that let them make margin specifically because of the increased sales and marketing retailers bring back to the publisher.
As long as people like to log off the internet, get their butts out of their chairs, leave there homes and shop, I don't think retail will ever entirely be obsolete. Changed, sure, but not made extinct.
Chief Technical Officer
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As I said, I think that this is different enough from the concept of remote subscription selling that Paizo would need to consider it separately.
You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.
And you're also correct that even if we solved that issue, we'd still have an issue with security when it comes to the Bits & Mortar implementation. While some of the things you suggest we could do to get around that are potentially reasonable, they're also a pretty big shift from what Bits & Mortar is actually doing.
I am already in Europe. I suspect that may account for some of the difference in attitude towards FLGS. In the UK where I am originally from, and in the other places in Europe I have experienced, they don't really exist like they do in the US. They certainly don't have room to play. They tend, where they exist at all, to be small, cramped, dusty, crammed with stock, and generally unpleasant places. They are places you go to buy stuff, not to hang out.
I also live in Europe. My FLGS has space for tables and chairs, where we can sit and play if we like. In fact, I believe that's one of the main reasons why they are still in business, unlike most of the other game stores in the area. They're doing so well, in fact, that they've opened a second store with even more playing space just 10 minutes away from the first.
I'm sure it can work in some circumstances - after all, providing a game and a place to play it has been Games Workshop's strategy for the last 20-odd years.
Perhaps the current economic circumstances will free up more quality retail space for games shops.
If there is a future for them, it will be as value-added providers of playspace, LAN gaming, painting workshops, hang-out areas, artist galleries and signings etc. Simply selling something that is available digitally will not be viable for long.
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You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.
As a subscriber to the Flip-Mats/Map packs lines, I don't see much in the way of "perks" when it comes to those purchases. I'm beginning to think I made a mistake in subscribing to this line instead of some other. Am I missing something?
You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.As a subscriber to the Flip-Mats/Map packs lines, I don't see much in the way of "perks" when it comes to those purchases. I'm beginning to think I made a mistake in subscribing to this line instead of some other. Am I missing something?
Maps don't have PDF's. However:
Best of all, each subscription shipment will give you a discount of 20% off the MSRP of that month’s map product, and subscribers may also order any previously released Flip-Mat or Map Pack (excluding backorders) at 15% off the cover price!
Much as I enjoy being able to walk into a bookstore/gamestore and being able to pick up a manual or six, a pack of minatures and possibly spend a few minutes chatting with people who don't give me blank glassy stares or the inevitable "Oh god you're a Nerd!" look when I talk about one of my hobbies, in my little corner of the world (south-west corner of Western Australia) the number of dedicated 'Gamer', in terms of table-top Games, stores can be counted upon one hand. The store closest to my home, a full three hours drive away, no longer has my purchases as I found that maps, pull-out sections and other 'kibble' was being removed from the manuals, boxes and other items and being given away to their regular clients.
I'm paying anywhere from $60-$90 Australian (at that time we were 75 cents to the American dollar) for a manual, I want everything that comes with the G~#&%@ned Manual.
I pay, what, $14 a pop for most of Pathfinder's manuals, it's stored online for me to download however many times I want, so if my computer has an unrecoverable blue-screen error or the cats piddle on the tower or something goes wrong, I haven't lost the data, it's just a quick download away. And thus far I've bought 4 full sets of Pathfinder Modules plus additional manuals for around $300 all up. Trying to buy that off my previous store would have cost me around $500-$600, and I had already bought close to twenty manuals at the time, costing me around $1,500 in cold hard cash, let alone campaign modules and the rest.
But let's take a look at how much easier it is to buy off Paizo than a Brick and Mortar Store:
2x200 pieces of high-grade A4-Paper, $6.00 a stack of 200 pieces.
Plastic-sheafs in stacks of 10, $2.00, use around 20 stacks.
4-8 Plastic-Sheaf Holders with 10 sheafs inside, $4.50.
Printer and Black and White/Color Combo cartridges, $200.
Works out to roughly $279 for 6 manuals, plus leftover materials, wherein a 6-manual list from my previous store would have left me out of pocket for close to the same, and I've procured the items needed to make more manuals at a later date with minimal costs. Set-up cost is roughly the same, but Paizo's method ensures that Players/Gamers don't continually get screwed over by greedy bastards who, before the advent of the PDF, had our hobby-groups by the proverbials and were squeezing that cash-cow for all it was worth.
Instant, easily replaceable manuals. They're watermarked so I can always say "That's mine." when the game comes to an end and people start packing up. If they get trashed by pizza/chinese/mexican/whateverthehellthatwas food, it's not a big deal. I can alter a 'manual' with house-rules for one game and not have to worry about it for the next Paizo-Vanilla game, just swap it out.
That said, if a Gamer Store did open up nearby, I would purchase off them, but Paizo would still be my primary purchase location. You just can't beat the deals Paizo offers, and trust me, I understand the pain of over-priced rent in shopping centers, working as a Classically Trained Jeweller in an actual Jewellery Store, not a cheap and nasty 'Chain' Store, we get constant complaints they can't look at our products online. Difference is, as a highly trained individual, I can offer a service that even the most tech-savvy tool with access to a CAD/CAM system can't. I know my medium, I work with it day in, day out, and don't rely upon a computer to do the work for me. Chain stores, like many of the Book Stores that abound, tend to have invested little to no time in training their staff beyond how to manage the till and write up reports, tend to have little to no focus on helping customers with after-sale service and tend to rely upon an 'infinite new customer' plan that just does not work in an era where the Internet is rising to prominence as the single greatest medium for people to connect at any time of day.
I get a certain sense of satisfaction at watching people come in, wailing that their 'oh so convenient' service online has left them high and dry when they encounter a problem and the companies in question refuse to deal with them. Now if it was a real life transaction, most of the time you can get (or force) somebody to deal with you and get some form of co-operation and help. E-Bay is the biggest problem we find in my trade, mostly because the American System for grading Jewellery is that ridiculously open to abuse than the English/Australian and European Systems, but that is a rant for another time , but mostly because people buy online because 'it's cheap' and then are left holding a piece of crap that you can buy in Bali for $5.00 off the average vendor.
In Australia we recently had a large number of multi-state and multi-national Chain-Stores protesting loudly that Internet Sales were killing them off. Then one smart customer pointed out their price-fixing, insider trading and the fact that their staff were over-worked to the point of being emotionally unable to deal positively with the Customers, and suddenly the loud (and expensive) Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth ended.
So long as 'Brick and Mortar' stores think they can continue to hold their customers against a wall and commit economic sodomy, they will continue to lose repeat customers at a rate far exceeding the number of new customers they get, and thus will fold and collapse.
So long as the Internet is the playground for cheap-ass customers who don't look beyond a low price-ticket, the Customers will continue to be screwed over by unscrupulous companies and individuals, and thus people will always find it easier to go to a physical store and deal with real people than a faceless wall of coding and painfully automated customer service 'hotlines'.
Paizo offers a great product, at very good prices, and has excellent customer service. If the Bricks and Mortar people followed even half of that business plan, they wouldn't be in trouble right now.
Oh, and for the inevitable snarky comeback? The business I work for, 34 years it has opperated as a 'Mom and Dad' business before the boss finally decided to sell so he could take his wife around the world before the cancer on her optic nerves takes her sight away for good, it's trained 5 different Jewellers, trained 23 different 'Floor' girls, 9 of whom were immediately offered management positions within our city the instant they left work because of their training, which was never offered at 'chain' stores btw, and I have been working as a Fully Qualified, Classically Trained Jeweller for almost 14 years now.
As I said, I think that this is different enough from the concept of remote subscription selling that Paizo would need to consider it separately.You're correct that it's a different issue, with a different key problem, which several people have already pointed out: Subscriptions are our bread-and-butter, and subscribers need subscriber perks. For some of our lines, the only real perk subscribers get is the free PDF. If we offered free PDFs with any print purchase, there would be no point in subscribing for many people, and that would be a problem for us.
And you're also correct that even if we solved that issue, we'd still have an issue with security when it comes to the Bits & Mortar implementation. While some of the things you suggest we could do to get around that are potentially reasonable, they're also a pretty big shift from what Bits & Mortar is actually doing.
Thanks for your consideration Vic.
Given that Paizo is always one of the leading supporters of FreeRPG Day, I wonder if, one day, you might be able to find a way to support this sort of concept without undermining the subscription service.
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bigmac,
It seems to me (based on the tone, tenor, and content you've offered in a thread you started) you are heavily-invested (either emotionally or financially) in one of two things.
You either are:
- associated in some larger way with a physical location that offers for sale materials targeted towards "Role-Playing Games," (you're a stake-holder in a "Brick-and-Mortar" store)
or
- you don't believe you should have to pay "extra" when multiple-modes of delivery are made available for the sale of materials designed to support "Role-Playing Games."
Yes? No?
Sorry for the delay.
Actually no to both of those.
I am just an end customer. I have no connection with any RPG store, the Bits & Mortar program or any RPG publisher.
The second thing is really not something I've brought up in this topic. I'm not sure why you have. If I didn't want to pay more for a PDF of something, I could just scan it in myself and make my own PDF.
I think that the Bits & Mortar scheme, and the publishers that are backing it are doing something that might help some RPG stores to pull in some customers. My original post was to ask if Paizo could join in. Vic has already said that they can not. Maybe that might change in the future. Maybe it won't. I've got my answer. There is no big deal.
I hope you'll show me the courtesy of a response (not just because I'd like to know, but to improve my perception of you based on what I consider the gross discourtesy you showed Vic Wertz earlier here dismissing his considered input on Paizo's strategy regarding digital delivery of content).
I await your reply,
I'm not sure how you thought I was being grossly discourteous to Vic Wertz. To be honest, I'm pretty baffled that you are treating me like I'm trolling.
I clearly said that I think it is great that he explains things, rather than just saying "no" at the start of the post. I think that is something that is really great about him, compared to some other RPG people that don't have the time to answer random enquiries from random customers. The bottom line is that Vic Wertz's time is money and him talking to us on the forums is brilliant. I think my first statement made that pretty clear.
I went on to point out how this situation was not exactly the same as the post that I had been referred to. I didn't say that Vic was stupid or mistaken. Just that the circumstances are different to setting up remote sales. I don't think that pointing out the two situations as being different is rude. You did. I'm not sure why. I'll try to explain where I'm coming from for you.
The thing that I have in mind is that (in case you or others don't know) Paizo sinks a lot of cash into being one of the top two supporters of the FreeRPG Day scheme (the other being Wizards of the Coast). FreeRPG Day is free to punters, but Paizo pay to make the free stuff (and the RPG stores that get the stuff pay for the cost of shipping). (And I've been following FreeRPG Day for the last few years and Paizo and WotC have both put in the most product every year.) I'm not sure exactly how much that Paizo have sunk into FreeRPG Day over the years, but I'm betting that it is a substantial amount of cash. So I know that Paizo is doing what it can to support bricks & mortar stores.
While a few other customers have written off physical stores (and some publishers have gone totally PDF and pulled out of the sales chain that physical stored depend on) Paizo is continuing to support the stores (and online RPG outlets) by continuing to stay in the dead-tree market.
I think that Vic and the rest of the Paizo team would support this kind of concept if they were sure that it would not damage their subscription sales. The problem I see is that the security they put into their own system would need to somehow be duplicated in order to satisfy them that PDFs would not get redistributed. I suppose that they could do it in house, but it would have a prohibitively high cost. (Which would obviously make it a non-starter.)
Hopefully things might change in the future that makes this easier. But if that does not happen, then I hope that the other publishers find that this scheme increase sales to the level that it is a financial boost to them.
Bigmac,
You mentioned that the subscription plan goes away so to speak with the initiative that you have planned regarding Paizo becoming involved. Those of us that do subscribe would do what then drive to the brick and mortar store to get the PDF's? Then why would any one subscribe with Paizo any longer?This is what Vic was talking about. You can't just make those go away for them. It is one of the perks of subscribing AND mitigating the shipping cost. This is a plan that Paizo has in place, expecting them to just up and change that plan is not a great idea what so ever on many levels, on a marketing level though there is way to much at stake for Paizo to stop now.
I'm not sure where you got this from, but just to be clear: I have no desire for Paizo to stop doing their subscription deal. A deal is a deal and any deal can help end customers to save cash.
The subscription deal works for some customers. It doesn't work for all of them. This scheme, which I've got no connection with, was another deal that I thought that Paizo might not be aware of. It is still pretty new and they had it closed to new publishers for a while. It took them a while to integrate the products from Mongoose when they joined.
Anyhoo, despite not being a subscriber myself, I hope that deal carries on and that the people that subscribe to product lines find that it works for them.
I am not saying this is a bad idea for what you are wanting to do but this is not something IMHO that Paizo would be interested in. It will help the sales for the smaller companies though that you are getting involved, with the brick and mortar stores and printed issues and getting a free PDF is a great thing and should more then increase their sales.
It does seem that Paizo are not getting involved in the scheme (which is not my scheme) but I think it is something to follow if you want the same sort of deal that you get from Paizo subscriptions. It would seem that going directly to Paizo for some Pathfinder RPG products and going via participating RPG stores for third party Pathfinder RPG products will save customers the most cash.
Things may change over time (on both sides) so I think that fans of both dead tree and PDF should keep an eye on the situation from time to time.
Blah Blah.. my business model is threatened by new technology. So you all should support me so I don't have to adapt to reality.
Did I sum it up right?
You didn't sum up the OP right. That was more "Blah Blah... I've seen this Bits & Mortar thing that is really cool. Will Paizo join in?"
You are right that bricks and mortar stores will need to adapt.
I can't buy out of print gamebooks in London, UK and have to look for them on the Internet. I often find RPG stores selling stuff online on Amazon and other online book retailers. That is one way they can adapt. Sadly the British stores I know think they can't do that and I'm currently importing stuff from US retailers. (That is good for the US stores, but bad for the UK stores which will have less and less of my cash.)
One of the three RPG stores in my town decided to adapt a different way. They sold out to property developers. That was a bit "Meh!" but hopefully it will increase the sales of the other two stores and keep them alive.
Things could go either way, really. It isn't my reality or your reality. There is only one reality, but I don't think any of us can anticipate it exactly.
For all I know illegal downloads could destroy the entire gaming industry (including WotC and Paizo) and we could all be left fighting over a slowly diminishing pool of second hand RPG books and lamenting the "good old days" when companies made roleplaying books. But if that ever happens, we will be a bunch of old farts doing a hobby that nobody bothers doing any more. Or we might all get priced out of the market by rich "collectors" that pay $2,000 for gamebooks that they put into a safe and never read. :-O
I am already in Europe. I suspect that may account for some of the difference in attitude towards FLGS. In the UK where I am originally from, and in the other places in Europe I have experienced, they don't really exist like they do in the US. They certainly don't have room to play. They tend, where they exist at all, to be small, cramped, dusty, crammed with stock, and generally unpleasant places. They are places you go to buy stuff, not to hang out.
I know what you mean, but they are not all like that. Leisure Games in North Londond is pretty clean and during the last FreeRPG Day they gave up a little of their office space at the back to double the amount of play area in the shop.
Since I can now buy my stuff cheaper in a more convenient form online, why on earth would I miss them?
A deal is a deal is a deal. Sometimes stuff is cheaper online. I buy stuff online too (especially as some of the stuff I want is not available in stores). But there are shipping charges (especially if you are buying stuff from overseas) and shipping charges can rub out the savings of some deals.
If a bricks and mortar store can sell me something for the same price, I'll go with them, as it gives me the option to browse. And if they can give me a free PDF, that loads the deal in their favour. Of course if RPG publishers can do what Paizo have done and give a free PDF at their end, that is going to win them customers.
Someone earlier spoke of cutting out the middle men. I'd be happy to see both publishers and RPG stores cut out the distribution chain and offer low price to end users.
I know of a couple of RPG designers who have gone into self-publishing, so they can cut out the publisher. We certainly live in interesting times. :-)
I have to admit, I'm surprised that stores don't have room to play in Europe. We in the States tend to be under the impression that Europe is the Mecca of game playing, and all game stores there are thriving breeding grounds for creativity and fun. Thanks for crushing my future travel dreams...
There are some awesome game stores in the UK, but the industry as a whole, pretty much shrivelled up after 2nd Edition AD&D. Games Workshop is massive, but moved entirely into their own products and focused on Wargaming. Virgin Games Centre used to have two shops in Oxford Street, then they sold out to someone that sold computer games. And Hamleys, which used to claim to be the largest toy store in the world, had about a quarter of a floor for AD&D books other RPG books and miniatures, but when I went in there during the early 3e era a sales assistant told me he thought that D&D didn't exist any more (and he was an ex-player)!
The stores that we have left are the ones that are doing stuff right, but with a recession kicking in and biting them with increased costs and punters with less free cash, they can't afford to stand still. They need to constantly be innovating to get ahead.
...Paizo doesn't offer the option to download a free PDF of any product a customer buys as a one-off, but instead reserves the free PDF as an enticement to subscribe rather than buy singular products here and there.
That alone would seem to preclude them from participating in your program.
It certainly looks that way, Skeld. (And its not my program by the way.)
Maybe things might change one day. When some of the Pathfinder stuff is several years old, it won't be competing against subscriptions of new product. And helping RPG stores to "shift" old Pathfinder stock might help encourage them to buy new Pathfinder stock.
Alternatively, Paizo might do some sort of deal to help encourage people to buy their own old stock one day.
Keep watching the skies, says I.
I love my local brick and mortar store. It's the reason that you don't see pathfinder ___ subscription after my name on the forums. If there were an option that I could have my books delivered to my brick and mortar store, and give them the business they need to survive, while still using my account to be a pathfinder subscriber, I would do so.
I honestly think that is the route that Paizo would need to go with to satisfy their subscriber model, and still support the brick and mortar stores.
Allow people to have subscriptions that are set up through a brick and mortar place. Make them follow all of the normal instructions for downloading any PDF's that come with their subscription. Make them get to their brick and mortar store to pick up their book.
I would think that a model like that would not only be feasible, but have the advantage of other companies doing some of the marketing work for Paizo. On the forums, and for their subscriptions, you could allow stores to upload store logos. It'd be spiffy.
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Allow people to have subscriptions that are set up through a brick and mortar place. Make them follow all of the normal instructions for downloading any PDF's that come with their subscription. Make them get to their brick and mortar store to pick up their book.I would think that a model like that would not only be feasible, but have the advantage of other companies doing some of the marketing work for Paizo. On the forums, and for their subscriptions, you could allow stores to upload store logos. It'd be spiffy.
In case you are interested, our Technical Director Vic Wertz wrote an excellent post on why this is not feasible for Paizo.
The ever changing ways of technology makes it so much harder on a brick and mortar store and they have to work harder to keep things fresh for customers. I personally will always buy the hardback books and I only buy them at the FLAG, even though I have found Pathfinder books for less online.
My gaming group is a fine example of what a more modern gaming group will look like in the future. Here I lug in the backpack with a ton of books, a mat, minatures, dice, pencils, and a GM's screen. Each player carriers a steno pen and an iPad with the books in .PDF and their character sheets all printed and filled out with no pencil marks on them thanks to excell spread sheets they have found online. I feel like a dinosaur having done almost everything by hand. With this being the future of gaming I fear for the game stores out there. Our FLAG has pretty much switched from a strong RPG focus to almost all Magic the Gathering and Board Games to ensure there are hard products to buy.
That, and pay to play tournaments are just some of the things that gaming stores need to do to survive. The Brick and Mortar group sounds great, but when the cost of printing a book grows to great the companies will cut back and eventually stop printing them altogether. Hell, even I am starting to eye the iPad just so I don't have to carry all the Pathfinder books to a game...
I actually read this post from Vic shortly after it was written. It honestly makes me sad that there are so few hobby shops that actually can track things and offer service in an 'acceptable' manner.
That's really on the shops though, and while I can't do anything to improve people's faith in one of the last mom and pop style stores left in the world - I can maybe work on writing some kind of point of sale software for the hobby shop industry. Apparently it's in need of some inventory tracking help.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I hope you'll show me the courtesy of a response (not just because I'd like to know, but to improve my perception of you based on what I consider the gross discourtesy you showed Vic Wertz earlier here dismissing his considered input on Paizo's strategy regarding digital delivery of content).
I await your reply,
I'm not sure how you thought I was being grossly discourteous to Vic Wertz. To be honest, I'm pretty baffled that you are treating me like I'm trolling.
I clearly said that I think it is great that he explains things,...
I didn't feel you were being discourteous at all.
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I actually read this post from Vic shortly after it was written. It honestly makes me sad that there are so few hobby shops that actually can track things and offer service in an 'acceptable' manner.
That's really on the shops though, and while I can't do anything to improve people's faith in one of the last mom and pop style stores left in the world - I can maybe work on writing some kind of point of sale software for the hobby shop industry. Apparently it's in need of some inventory tracking help.
Diamond Comics has, by my understanding, had some success in getting comic shops to adopt a modern POS system, and I believe Alliance is still planning to do a similar thing for hobby shops, though I don't think they have a public timetable yet.
However, there are many more issues mentioned in my post than can be solved just by a decent POS system.
I love my local brick and mortar store. It's the reason that you don't see pathfinder ___ subscription after my name on the forums. If there were an option that I could have my books delivered to my brick and mortar store, and give them the business they need to survive, while still using my account to be a pathfinder subscriber, I would do so.
I honestly think that is the route that Paizo would need to go with to satisfy their subscriber model, and still support the brick and mortar stores.
Allow people to have subscriptions that are set up through a brick and mortar place. Make them follow all of the normal instructions for downloading any PDF's that come with their subscription. Make them get to their brick and mortar store to pick up their book.
I would think that a model like that would not only be feasible, but have the advantage of other companies doing some of the marketing work for Paizo. On the forums, and for their subscriptions, you could allow stores to upload store logos. It'd be spiffy.
You may be able to do this yourself (if you are genuinely happy to pay more for your subscription). At one point I was discussing the possibility with my FLGS. Our plan was for me to just alter my shipping address here and have things sent to them - they would then ring me when my paizo order arrived and I'd go in to collect it, paying them their handling fee and browsing their new arrivals from other companies.
I doubt it would ever be truly feasible, since not many would go this route, I suspect. However, if there were a number of people who were doing this at your FLGS, it may be possible to negotiate a "multiple customer, combined shipping" option with paizo and thus add a little bit of value. (the only real value I was going to get was the convenience of having someone to receive the goods rather than risk having them left in the rain. Other than that, it was essentially going to be charity).