It was never going to be Thrawn. First of all, you'd have to recast the trio and that wasn't ever going to fly.
Simply my opinion, there.
It was never going to be a remake of a video game. It certainly wasn't going to be a deep dive into Sith history - though that might make an interesting movie at some point, it wasn't going to be Episodes 7-9.
I was trying to quietly suggest that the old Old Republic may well be the best chance at restabilizing to a much less grar-ified fanbase. Stories from millennia before TPM wouldn't make for a good ending of the saga.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Sadly, any plan I had for seeing this new movie in the theater has now gone up in smoke. Th wife convinced me the kids needed a new pet, so now much of what was my free awake time (and some of my sleep time) is now devoted to our 7 week old German Shepherd puppy named Lily.
The most ironic part of this is that I, who had the least enthusiasm about this (from a timing perspective), am the most knowledgeable of, and have the most experience caring for, dogs of all ages.
Taking care of and playing with a new puppy will be a billion billion times better than the movie, this is a blessing in disguise!
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Having re watched rebels and I think the episode mentioned, the point of the gravity well ship was to stop ships from escaping in hyperspace or to yank them out of hyperspace, not stop a holdo maneuver.
The Holdo maneuver didn't exist prior the TLJ, so they either . . .
1. Retcon it into the history of Star Wars (with appropriate counters)
or
2. Make it so that in the thousands of years with hyperspace travel, no one thought of it before.
Given that the civilizations in Star Wars have been around for thousands of years and have had blisteringly fast hyperdrive the whole time and SOMEHOW there are still "Unknown Regions" that people haven't explored and charted, (2) isn't all that farfetched.
Given that the civilizations in Star Wars have been around for thousands of years and have had blisteringly fast hyperdrive the whole time and SOMEHOW there are still "Unknown Regions" that people haven't explored and charted, (2) isn't all that farfetched.
Space is big. Really. really big.
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Folks, would it be too much to ask that the ongoing argument about a scene from a movie from two years ago go into that movie's thread (the Last Jedi)?
Folks, would it be too much to ask that the ongoing argument about a scene from a movie from two years ago go into that movie's thread (the Last Jedi)?
Previous experience on the Internet is not promising.
How about that thousand destroyer fleet hiding out on the Sith homeworld? Who built them and who is manning them?
How about that thousand destroyer fleet hiding out on the Sith homeworld? Who built them and who is manning them?That was a little weird. Wasn't there a throwaway bit with Sheev telling Kylo Ren to abduct more children to be trained up as soldiers?
The ships themselves I felt like was just something Palps had in his back pocket, putting them together since the early days of the Empire, because he plans that far ahead.
They are manned by the many myriad soldiers of the Final Order, which yes, their origins are a conundrum. What wasn't clear to me there was how aware the First Order was of the Final Order. Was the First Order's purpose to, among other things, gather recruits for the Final Order? If so I can see how, especially while the Resistance has been in hiding the last couple years, they were focused on gathering recruits--but I don't know how they picked them or knew where to send them. Did Palps just telepathically teleport them to where they needed to be?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not only who built the ships, but where'd the materials come from without a massive empire of planet's resources, and how'd they get all the components and materials to the hidden Sith world that no one knew about and only had 2 well hidden holochrons that had the location?
And, when the Emperor died before the Death Star 2 was even finished, where did the next generation planet killer lasers get designed and developed which could now fit on star destroyers? Even if Palpatine somehow had a massive fleet starting to be built, there's no way he could have gotten the designs like that. Esepcially when the First Order spent their R&D efforts to building Starkiller Base from Ep 7, it's not like there are tons of giant space laser scientists hanging around waiting to build different versions. Certainly not after the destruction of the Empire. Pretty much none of Ep 9 made sense.
Not only who built the ships, but where'd the materials come from without a massive empire of planet's resources, and how'd they get all the components and materials to the hidden Sith world that no one knew about and only had 2 well hidden holochrons that had the location?
.
I'm now picturing an A team montage with the emperor force lifting components into place, welding them with force lightning, then a mook gets electrocuted and falls to his death, and everyone points and laughs.
Not only who built the ships, but where'd the materials come from without a massive empire of planet's resources, and how'd they get all the components and materials to the hidden Sith world that no one knew about and only had 2 well hidden holochrons that had the location?
.I'm now picturing an A team montage with the emperor force lifting components into place, welding them with force lightning, then a mook gets electrocuted and falls to his death, and everyone points and laughs.
I think that's exactly what happened.
ETA: Oh! I got it! The Final Order forces are clones. What with all that cloning equipment they showed that they had and all. That makes perfect sense, and has precedent in the universe. And that means the First Order wasn't involved in the Final Order's formation.
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In 20-30 years we will get a film called Rogue Two that explains everything...
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Sounds good to me!
Who was manning them? no one... they were just on Autopilot and set to 'not move and fire at any target detected by their radar array'.
Which is why they were so easily defeated. :P
Folks, would it be too much to ask that the ongoing argument about a scene from a movie from two years ago go into that movie's thread (the Last Jedi)?
...yes ma'am...
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How about that thousand destroyer fleet hiding out on the Sith homeworld? Who built them and who is manning them?That was a little weird. Wasn't there a throwaway bit with Sheev telling Kylo Ren to abduct more children to be trained up as soldiers?The ships themselves I felt like was just something Palps had in his back pocket, putting them together since the early days of the Empire, because he plans that far ahead.
They are manned by the many myriad soldiers of the Final Order, which yes, their origins are a conundrum. What wasn't clear to me there was how aware the First Order was of the Final Order. Was the First Order's purpose to, among other things, gather recruits for the Final Order? If so I can see how, especially while the Resistance has been in hiding the last couple years, they were focused on gathering recruits--but I don't know how they picked them or knew where to send them. Did Palps just telepathically teleport them to where they needed to be?
I vaguely remember in old, moldering books the emperor being nearly worshipped by some of his adherents and some of them being given special missions, up to and including "work this clone machine" and "go to these coordinates and wait for a signal that may never come".
Also, again from books, the empire had been working on miniaturizing their death star tech for a long, long time, as they were still the only ones with enough kyber crystal(still hate that name, lol) to keep the death star project going. Iirc, there was something like that in the X wing series.
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Space is big. Really. really big.
Given that the civilizations in Star Wars have been around for thousands of years and have had blisteringly fast hyperdrive the whole time and SOMEHOW there are still "Unknown Regions" that people haven't explored and charted, (2) isn't all that farfetched.
Uh, not in Star Wars it isn't.
The whole Skywalker movie happened in less than 24 hours. So, that was enough time to go to all the planets, get all the ships, maneuver back and then show up in time to fight the Empire.
Not to mention that slower than light speed travel takes you to new solar systems (The Empire Strikes Back).
Not to mention how INCREDIBLY dense asteroid belts are. And how destructive :-)
Its a VERY, VERY, VERY small galaxy :-) :-) (although a long way away and a long time ago :-))
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The whole Skywalker movie happened in less than 24 hours.It did??
I’ve only seen Rise of Skywalker once so far, but I definitely didn’t get that ...
I'm pretty sure that they said that at one or two points. They somehow knew the schedule of the fleet leaving and dispersing.
I don't think I just imagined that :-)
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To the best of my recollection (sketchy for sure), the first six movies were pretty vague about how much realtime elapsed during hyperspace transits. With the release of Rogue One, though, a new precedent was set for hyperdrive efficacy.
Drawing upon both EU and Star Wars RPG Saga Edition sources (this should be good), the galaxy is approximately 100k light-years in diameter. An online galactic map indicates the positions of all the Saga and EU locations (and I believe it is as "official" as such a thing can be) {i'll track down the link presently}, and we find ourselves presented with a spectacular case of 'logic bomb'.
The distances between Tatooine/Alderaan and Yavin IV/Scarif present difficulties for "the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy" to require hours to reach Alderaan, whereas the Rebel pilots on Yavin IV reach Scarif in sufficient time to have impact on the outcome of an operation for which there was no plan in place for their participation.
Granted, this is only a dilemma for those who are interested in consistency in the factors that help suspend their disbelief. It is certainly possible, and even rational -- perhaps --, to downplay Kenobi's mention of a "fast ship"; likewise Solo's scoundrelly ways mayhap leading him to hedge overplaying his hand, so to speak.
Here's that link: An Interactive Map of the Star Wars Galaxy
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The whole Skywalker movie happened in less than 24 hours.It did??
I’ve only seen Rise of Skywalker once so far, but I definitely didn’t get that ...
I'm pretty sure that they said that at one or two points. They somehow knew the schedule of the fleet leaving and dispersing.
I don't think I just imagined that :-)
The information they got from the spy said that the fleet would be ready/operational in 16 hours. It was therefore strongly implied that the entire rest of the movie took place in not just 24 hours, but only 16. This is simply sloppy writing. It would have been pretty urgent still if they had said 7 days, and even then it would have made the galaxy seem really really small.
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The information they got from the spy said that the fleet would be ready/operational in 16 hours. It was therefore strongly implied that the entire rest of the movie took place in not just 24 hours, but only 16. This is simply sloppy writing. It would have been pretty urgent still if they had said 7 days, and even then it would have made the galaxy seem really really small.The whole Skywalker movie happened in less than 24 hours.It did??
I’ve only seen Rise of Skywalker once so far, but I definitely didn’t get that ...
I'm pretty sure that they said that at one or two points. They somehow knew the schedule of the fleet leaving and dispersing.
I don't think I just imagined that :-)
Time spent traveling doesn't work as a unit of distance when you have hyperspace involved.
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Time spent traveling doesn't work as a unit of distance when you have hyperspace involved.
To some extent.
But if star ships can traverse the galaxy THIS quickly then it really makes very little sense that there are undiscovered and/or unexploited planets, let alone entire regions of the galaxy.
One could fan wank some solution such as really, really low birth rates or something but (at least in the movies) there really is ZERO evidence of something like that. The sheer fact that worlds like Tatoonie have been colonized strongly suggests the reverse, that there is a lack of good planets in the galaxy
One could fan wank some solution such as really, really low birth rates or something but (at least in the movies) there really is ZERO evidence of something like that.
Hyperspace is established as something you don't want to do without knowing 1) exactly where you're going and 2) exactly whats in between where you are and where you're going.
So hyperspace is amazing for getting somewhere you know (like tatooine) but if you want to find the next planet X you probably need to move more slowly. (Like the Falcon did after losing their hyperdrive and drifting off as space junk)
Then you need to chart a safe and reliable hyperspace route to it, report that location (when that location may be how you make your money) to the nearest government, have that government not be taken over/change/ lose the records when they switch to USB 5.. there's a number of reasonable things that need to happen for a planet to get and STAY charted.
So, Babu Frik or whatever, is he a thing outside this movie?
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Meh, it's a fantasy world. There are unexplored regions because there need to be unexplored regions marked "Here be dragons." They settle desert planets because desert planets are a cool trope.
No one ever sat down and worked out how the physics of travel in Star Wars works or drew up maps of the galaxy with travel times between known systems*. Because none of that matters for the stories the movies want to tell. Never has.
Sure. I completely agree.
But in the Original Series they were careful not to push my willing suspension of disbelief too hard. Travel in hyperspace takes some unspecified but appreciable length of time. In a New Hope, for example. it was enough time for a bit of a training montage, some interstellar chess, some bonding time, failed enhanced interrogation of Leia, etc etc. Its unspecified but it is probably at least a few hours and could well be some days.
Specifying that all the travel that takes place in this movie happened in less than 16 hours was just silly in my mind. It makes me notice the ridiculously short time required to travel to lots of places across the galaxy, convince people to rise against the Empire, and get to the final fight. Far, far better to keep the time vague and unspecified.
So, Babu Frik or whatever, is he a thing outside this movie?
I believe he is a new character.
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I kind of agree, but for me it's more of a nit to pick than a real problem with the movie.
One of my major problems is that I generally find it harder than many to suspend my disbelief AND I find it harder to regain it when I'm jarred out of it.
Its weird. I can accept just about ANY premise, no matter how silly (I love Toy Story, for example), as long as the movie more or less stays true to that premise. And sometimes something that is, objectively, quite minor can jar me out of it.
And it is DEFINITELY the case that the more I'm enjoying the movie the less it matters.
So, in Empire Strike backs I NOTICE the absurdity of Asteroid belts with gazillions of asteroids in a very, very small volume and I NOTICE the absurdity of giant space worms (what the heck do they eat? :-)) but it doesn't bother me much and I go back to enjoying the fun romp.
But in a movie where I'm not really enjoying it all that much what really IS a minor nit like this just jars me right out of the movie and takes on an unreasonable amount of weight for me.
So, yes you're right and this is basically a nit. But, for me, it was a fairly major and totally unnecessary bit of bad writing that seriously impacted my enjoyment.
Yes, I'm weird :-) :-(
I felt the new trilogy suffers from bad actors overall... none of these new actors really do it for me, and I found myself waiting for the next Chewbacca / C3PO moments... Leia / Luke / Han Solo had too short a screen time.
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Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are both excellent actors
They're incredible. I also like John Boyega a great deal.
Not to mention, all of the newer actors IMO are far better than Mark Hamill was in 1977. Mark Hamill is amazing now. But he was a bit green 42 years ago.
Leia / Luke / Han Solo had too short a screen time.
More screen time had been planned for Leia, and unfortunately the universe had different plans for Carrie Fisher. May she rest in peace.
My understanding is Harrison Ford had the screentime he wished for, no more no less.
There are fair arguments out there for Luke showing up earlier, and I know Mark Hamill wrestled with the role he was handled. Still, as it was, he had loads of screentime in the second film, as well as an amazing heroic moment, and a good scene in the third. More would have taken away from the current heroes' story. He had his trilogy, this is someone else's.
(Disclaimer: While I am trying to assess this as fairly as possible, Luke is probably my least favorite character from the original trilogy. Contrary to vocal fan opinion, I absolutely loved his role in the current trilogy and thought it completely perfect and appropriate for his character, and thus I am assuredly biased. I know he is the character many other viewers saw themselves in, and those viewers therefore take what does and doesn't happen to him personally, but he was not that character for me and so it's impossible for me to view things the same way.)
While rife with nostalgia, the current trilogy was not intended to be purely a nostalgia trip for those of us who saw the movie as kids decades ago. The current trilogy is for our kids to experience what we did in a new story designed for their generation. (My personal favorite part of the current trilogy? That I got to see all three episodes in the theater with my nieces, and watch their delighted faces the whole time. Maybe that's why I loved the movies so much.)
...and I NOTICE the absurdity of giant space worms (what the heck do they eat? :-))
Well, that's easily answered...
Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are both excellent actors
Let me rephrase this then: Adam is more suited for real-life, based on a true story movies. Zero 'oomph' or emotion transference in such a splosions fest. Sorry. Daisy Ridley: I wouldn't tag 'excellent' next to her name, based on the only other movie I've seen her in, 'Murder on the Orient Express'. She's good yes, but her performance in both Star Wars and in that other movie would not make me 'seek her out' and convince me to go to the movies, or make me click on a Netflix title with her name on it. Adam Driver: same. Won't bring me to the theaters.
Look, and maybe it shows my age, but there are actors that I will actually go see. Anything with Matt Damon, Denzel Washington, Chris Bale, Angela Bassett, Merryl Streep, Tom Hanks, David Harbour, Jeremy Irons gets my money automatically.
Edit: oh, and Morena Baccarin, but it's due to extreme crush bias.
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It's Adam Driver's experience playing "real-life" based parts that gives life to Kylo Ren.
Sometimes a star's typecast can overshadow a good film experience. Disney didnt need "seek out" stars because you are going see Star Wars anyways just like everybody else. I find it refreshing that nobody on GM PDK's auto list was in Star Wars.
To Morena Baccarin: please disregard Pan's comments. You would have made such a good Sith Matron Mother. *sigh* <3
Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are both excellent actorsLet me rephrase this then: Adam is more suited for real-life, based on a true story movies. Zero 'oomph' or emotion transference in such a splosions fest. Sorry. Daisy Ridley: I wouldn't tag 'excellent' next to her name, based on the only other movie I've seen her in, 'Murder on the Orient Express'. She's good yes, but her performance in both Star Wars and in that other movie would not make me 'seek her out' and convince me to go to the movies, or make me click on a Netflix title with her name on it. Adam Driver: same. Won't bring me to the theaters.
Look, and maybe it shows my age, but there are actors that I will actually go see. Anything with Matt Damon, Denzel Washington, Chris Bale, Angela Bassett, Merryl Streep, Tom Hanks, David Harbour, Jeremy Irons gets my money automatically.
Edit: oh, and Morena Baccarin, but it's due to extreme crush bias.
Wow.
You're old.
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Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are both excellent actorsLet me rephrase this then: Adam is more suited for real-life, based on a true story movies. Zero 'oomph' or emotion transference in such a splosions fest. Sorry. Daisy Ridley: I wouldn't tag 'excellent' next to her name, based on the only other movie I've seen her in, 'Murder on the Orient Express'. She's good yes, but her performance in both Star Wars and in that other movie would not make me 'seek her out' and convince me to go to the movies, or make me click on a Netflix title with her name on it. Adam Driver: same. Won't bring me to the theaters.
Look, and maybe it shows my age, but there are actors that I will actually go see. Anything with Matt Damon, Denzel Washington, Chris Bale, Angela Bassett, Merryl Streep, Tom Hanks, David Harbour, Jeremy Irons gets my money automatically.
Edit: oh, and Morena Baccarin, but it's due to extreme crush bias.
Wow.
You're old.
Yes.
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There's a dozen different stories they could have told. A myriad of different directions. There's petty much exactly as much of a path as there was following TLJ.You said this. Three times. But never answered the question. Whats the outline for an epic grand finale supposed to look like starting at the end of tlj and going to the end in one movie.
Okay, since you asked.
(Now, before I go further, I should mention again I haven’t seen Rise of Skywalker. Because, based on reviews I read, I think it’d just irritate me. I’ll wait until it’s on Disney+. So this is stuff I’ve mused about in the two years since The Last Jedi, independent of TRoS.)The state of the galaxy at the end of The Last Jedi is actually pretty close to the state of the galaxy at the end of Return or the Jedi.
- Supreme leader/ emperor dead.
- Big super weapon/ ship destroyed.
- Rebels alive but decimated. (Not like many would have been left after the beating they took on Endor.)
- A lone Jedi survivor willing to rebuild the order.
There’s so many stories that can be told about such a galaxy. The EU is FULL of novels set in the post-RotJ era featuring the Rebellion mopping up the Empire.
The big difference is that Kylo Ren survived. It’s like RotJ if an in-redeemed Vader had survived and there was a semi-clear line of succession for control of the Empire.
So what’s the story?
Well, first let’s consider what the Saga is so you know how to end it. Really, it’s Anakin’s story. His fall. His redemption. And now his legacy. So that needs to be the focus. The Legacy of Vader. The story is basically the Fall of Kylo Ren. That’s how you end the Skywalker Saga, by showing how the bloodline ends.
Now, we’ve seen Anakin redeemed. Kylo shouldn’t have the exact same arc, because’s that’s redundant. He should die. End the bloodline.
We can start by building on what was established in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi: the rivalry between General Hux and Kylo Ren for command of the First Order. Kylo Ren trying to do what Vader failed to accomplish, to be better than his grandfather by actually ruling the galaxy. This should be about how he fails to do that. How he is close to having everything he wants but allows it to fall apart due to his “fatal flaw”.
The movie would have to tell the story of Kylo Ren and Hux continue to cement control over the galaxy while the Resistance take advantage of their infighting and vying for power to launch a counterattack. To rebuild the forces and sow discontent.
There’s basically infinite ways that very basic hook can be executed:
The Resistance lay low and wait until Hux and Ren begin a civil war and then attack when the two are distracted. The Resistance engage in false flag operations to pit Hux and Ren against each other. A Resistance agent places in the First Order command Wormtongues Hux, whispering sedition and stoking his ego. The Resistance take advantage of Ren’s military inexperience, and lure his forces into obvious traps.
That last idea would be the strongest opening. The First Order moving into a system, and the Resistance ambush them for an easy victory. Perhaps the First Order is tracking a Rebellion signal. Communication between cells as they plan an attack. But the Resistance knew the frequency was compromised and it’s a recording. The First Order walks into an empty room with two holograms talking and then a bunch of bombs arm. Then the fighters jump in to take out the remaining ships.
From there you move into the introductory arc of the story. The a-plot that keeps the fans entertained while the more important b-plot of Hux vs Ren builds and simmers. As this is the end of the trilogy and you want to fire any lingering Chekhov Guns, the Knights or Ren need to show up. Ren, being enraged after arguing with Hux over the debacle in the cold open, and decides it’s the Rebellion’s leadership that’s the problem. Cut off the head and the rest will fall apart. Kill “Skywalker’s apprentice” and that will eliminate figurehead rallying systems to the Rebellion. So he dispatches the Knights of Ren to hunt them down. Cue the standard samurai/ anime movie scene of presenting three or four unique bad guys and their signature weapons.
From there the movie becomes basically a chase. The Knights working individually try and track down the core cast (Poe, Rose, Finn, and Rey) who are off doing some filler mission for the Resistance, which seems important but is basically a MacGuffin and irrelevant to the plot. The Death Star plans in Rogue One or the map to Luke in The Force Awakens. They hit a couple planets, fight the Knights of Ren, get the plans for the keys to the unobtanium.
With the Knights defeated, the Resistance Wormtongue in the First Order (still unknown to the audience. Perhaps a disguised Billie Lourd in a wig & dark glasses) convinces Hux to depose of Kylo Ren. Which leads to the seeming second act reversal, as Hux snatches the MacGuffin from our heroes, and has his forces destroy anyone loyal to Ren. “Execute Order 69” and stormtroopers turn on stormtroopers.
All hail Supreme Leader Hux.
It’d be great here to have the trick used at the beginning uses again. Such as having Hux following the Millennium Falcon and an X-Wing by the communication between the two, only to find out it’s BB-8 and Artoo playing a recording of Poe and Rey who are really elsewhere and the ships are leading Hux into a Rebellion ambush. Like a mined asteroid field, followed by ships picking off the survivors.
Meanwhile you have the betrayed but barely alive Ren, having just escaped from Hux’s forces, planning his next move. At which point he’s approached by the Force Ghost of Anakin (Hayden Christensen of course, tying the prequels to the sequel trilogy) appearing to chastise him. Trying to get him on the path of light and turn him from the dark. Ren rejects him and his legacy, and now only wants revenge. So he gets on Hux’s flagship to kill him. At the same time, the main cast has also snuck on board the same ship, to try and arrest Hux and force a surrender. Where they’re let in board by the Wormtongue who reveals their identity to the audience.
The three factions all meet on the bridge at the same time. A big three way fight breaks out. So you have the big token lightsaber fight in the middle of a blaster fight. With Ren trying to kill Hux while Rey is trying to protect Hux while Hux is trying to kill them both. Meanwhile, the Resistance forces are engaged in their ambush in space for the obligatory climactic Star Wars dog fight. Ren gets killed. Hux gets injured and begs for his life. He calls to his forces across the galaxy to stand down.
The Resistance claims victory. And everyone has a big party while the Ewoks have some stormtrooper BBQ.
Roll credits.
And that’s just one idea. There are a million more.
It really isn’t hard once you sit down and start brainstorming...