Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker


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I've reached the point where I'd like to re-watch Mandalorian now. Watching Picard last night triggered this need.

Liberty's Edge

GM SuperTumbler wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
GM SuperTumbler wrote:
thejeff wrote:
This is true of every single fandom there has ever been. The hardcore fans are more invested than the creators. I'm sorry it seems unfair to you, but it's the way of the world.

I'll politely disagree. While it might be the norm that hardcore fans are more invested than the creators, it doesn't need to be true. The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.

That is the opposite of Kathleen Kennedy saying that they don't have source material for creating Star Wars. They don't have comics. C'mon man.

I understand that Star Wars doesn't have to do that. That they will sell lots of tickets to movies regardless, but I will continue to argue that their approach to the sequel trilogy is both lazy and disrespectful. There is a clear difference between the respect for the material and fandom that Marvel demonstrates vs Star Wars. I think you can see the fan reaction to this in the reaction to The Mandalorian. The Mandalorian isn't great, but it is miles better than the sequel trilogy, and most of the reason for that is that the two primary creators of it are someone who understands the cinematic DNA of the original trilogy and someone who is a canon nerd.

your hate for the mandalorian proves his point.
Did I somehow inadvertently express hate for The Mandalorian? I said it wasn’t great, by which I meant that it is not a great work of television. I enjoy the show immensely. It is a lot of fun and very pretty. I like the show.

What, in your opinion, IS a great work of television?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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GM SuperTumbler wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
GM SuperTumbler wrote:
thejeff wrote:
This is true of every single fandom there has ever been. The hardcore fans are more invested than the creators. I'm sorry it seems unfair to you, but it's the way of the world.

I'll politely disagree. While it might be the norm that hardcore fans are more invested than the creators, it doesn't need to be true. The CBS Star Trek shows have gone out of their way to hire writers who are Trek nerds. I haven't watched Picard yet, but for that show they have chosen a showrunner who is a huge fan (Michael Chabon) and put someone in the writer's room (Kirsten Beyer) who has written multiple novels and is a huge canon nerd.

That is the opposite of Kathleen Kennedy saying that they don't have source material for creating Star Wars. They don't have comics. C'mon man.

I understand that Star Wars doesn't have to do that. That they will sell lots of tickets to movies regardless, but I will continue to argue that their approach to the sequel trilogy is both lazy and disrespectful. There is a clear difference between the respect for the material and fandom that Marvel demonstrates vs Star Wars. I think you can see the fan reaction to this in the reaction to The Mandalorian. The Mandalorian isn't great, but it is miles better than the sequel trilogy, and most of the reason for that is that the two primary creators of it are someone who understands the cinematic DNA of the original trilogy and someone who is a canon nerd.

your hate for the mandalorian proves his point.
Did I somehow inadvertently express hate for The Mandalorian? I said it wasn’t great, by which I meant that it is not a great work of television. I enjoy the show immensely. It is a lot of fun and very pretty. I like the show.

Freehold DM also described my saying I wasn't interested in the Mandalorian as "hate" upthread, and given the context and Freehold's sometimes-difficult-to-parse-in-Internet-text sense of humor (which I hope he doesn't mind my mentioning), I interpreted what Freehold said as exaggerating for dramedy's sake. I may well be wrong, I have vastly misinterpreted Freehold before (but for some reason he still puts up with me ;p).

In short, I wouldn't think too much of it and carry on.


Ah! Well, then thank you for the perspective DQ.

I'm sorry, I feel like I have completely derailed this thread, and that was not my intent. That said, I'll answer the question. What is a Great Work of Television. I'm adding the capitalization to the phrase, which may be more about me than about Marc Radle, who asked the question.

When I say Great, I mean a Great work of Literature. In this case, film as Literature. By "Great" I meant something that is transformative. Transformative in the sense that it changes both the artform and the audience/receiver of the art. I don't necessarily mean that the work isn't flawed. As an example, I'd consider The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn as a Great Work of Literature, but one that is deeply flawed. That novel changed other American novels that came after it. Ernest Hemingway claimed that all American Literature flowed from The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. I'd agree with that. I think Twain created a truly American novel, even though the novel is a mess in the middle.

To bring that back to the question, I'd say that Star Wars (what we call A New Hope these days) is a Great Work. It is deeply flawed. The dialogue is bad and often badly acted, which I attribute to George Lucas as a director and not to the actors. But Star Wars clearly transformed many things that came after it. To me, that makes it Great.

For me, Greatness is transformative. The Empire Strikes Back rises to the level of Greatness. Even though there are many works that follow this structure, we often refer to contemporary films and television as the "Empire" of a particular series. "Empire" was simply following the 2nd act of a 3 act structure or the 3rd act of a 5 act Shakespearean structure, but still "Empire" stands out as a paragon of that structure.

To more directly answer the question about what makes a great work of television, note that this is not an exhaustive list: Carson's Tonight Show, because it set the standard for late night, I Love Lucy, because it set the standard for a more "realistic" portrayal of a married couple on television (power dynamics of the couple, and the first depiction of a couple in the same bed), Archie Bunker, because it replaced the silly and happy world of sitcoms with a racist and problematic character who didn't improve every episode, The Cosby Show (I know, Cosby) because it depicted a well educated upper middle class professional African American couple at a time when that was not at all normal, MASH 1 and MASH 2, the seasons with Henry Blake and the seasons without, two different shows, really, but both extremely influential. Friends, because it created the "hanging out" genre of sitcom (arguable, this might also have been Cheers). Seinfeld, because it was about nothing and terrible people, and created a genre that is seen in many other shows, probably most recently Always Sunny in Philadelphia. In the past 20 years, Breaking Bad. Breaking Bad is Great television in every way, acting, writing, cinematography. Most recently, maybe my answer would be HBO's Watchmen. Great acting, great writing, brilliantly weaving multiple stories together.

The Mandalorian is a wonderful spaghetti western centered on a lovely costume design (Mandalorian armor) and a cute character design (Baby Yoda, call him what you will). The Mandalorian is wonderful in its respect for canon and enjoyable Easter Eggs. Just as the original trilogy referenced many movies, The Mandalorian makes reference to cinema history (Magnificent Seven, etc). But I don't think that The Mandalorian is ultimately going to change how movies or television are made for decades to come. Of course I could be wrong.

Again, I apologize for the derail.


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Only on this forum could you derail from star wars to the definition of a great work of art. Twice.


I do love being here. This is my favorite place on the internet.


How it should have ended


BigNorseWolf wrote:
How it should have ended

That was pretty funny until the "how it should have ended" segment started. Then, it was unbearable.


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Didn't love that one. HISHE version of The Last Jedi is better than The Last Jedi as far as I'm concerned. I guess even these clever satirists couldn't redeem Rise of Skywalker.

In addition, and tangentially, I think I'm beginning to realize that I am perhaps too invested in my own versions of Star Wars and Batman to ever really enjoy someone else's version of those stories. I should probably step back from those stories.


Finally got around to seeing this last week. I liked it.

To date, I have still never seen EP 3, and I stand by that decision.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Speaking as someone who really liked the last couple movies, I thought the HISHE made a very good point that having the Palp reveal at the end of TLJ would have been a much better setup. And I presume the reason that didn't happen was executive f*~%ery.

GM SuperTumbler wrote:
In addition, and tangentially, I think I'm beginning to realize that I am perhaps too invested in my own versions of Star Wars and Batman to ever really enjoy someone else's version of those stories. I should probably step back from those stories.

I had a similar realization about the MCU. The way my brain imagined out the potential of that universe and its ensuing reality are simply at odds. (Happy to keep playing in my own fanfic universe.) Good to get space and perspective sometimes.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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DeathQuaker wrote:
Speaking as someone who really liked the last couple movies, I thought the HISHE made a very good point that having the Palp reveal at the end of TLJ would have been a much better setup. And I presume the reason that didn't happen was executive f%+@ery.

More likely it had to do with a lack of an overall plan. Was Rian Johnson even aware of the plan to bring back Palpatine? Was anyone at Disney/Lucas Arts aware of the idea?


Lord Fyre wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Speaking as someone who really liked the last couple movies, I thought the HISHE made a very good point that having the Palp reveal at the end of TLJ would have been a much better setup. And I presume the reason that didn't happen was executive f%+@ery.
More likely it had to do with a lack of an overall plan. Was Rian Johnson even aware of the plan to bring back Palpatine? Was anyone at Disney/Lucas Arts aware of the idea?

Which qualifies as executive f$*&ery - even if just not by doing their job of getting the individual to work together, to plan overall character and story arcs.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Speaking as someone who really liked the last couple movies, I thought the HISHE made a very good point that having the Palp reveal at the end of TLJ would have been a much better setup. And I presume the reason that didn't happen was executive f%+@ery.
More likely it had to do with a lack of an overall plan. Was Rian Johnson even aware of the plan to bring back Palpatine? Was anyone at Disney/Lucas Arts aware of the idea?
Which qualifies as executive f#+*ery - even if just not by doing their job of getting the individual to work together, to plan overall character and story arcs.

Per an earlier discussion above, yes, there is indications it was indeed planned the whole time... but it seems like Rian Johnson wasn't told.

So what thejeff said.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DeathQuaker wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Speaking as someone who really liked the last couple movies, I thought the HISHE made a very good point that having the Palp reveal at the end of TLJ would have been a much better setup. And I presume the reason that didn't happen was executive f%+@ery.
More likely it had to do with a lack of an overall plan. Was Rian Johnson even aware of the plan to bring back Palpatine? Was anyone at Disney/Lucas Arts aware of the idea?
Which qualifies as executive f#+*ery - even if just not by doing their job of getting the individual to work together, to plan overall character and story arcs.
Per an earlier discussion above, yes, there is indications it was indeed planned the whole time... but it seems like Rian Johnson wasn't told.

That actually makes Kathleen Kennedy look worse. No mean feat.

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