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I'm going to be honest. I almost never crack a physical book anymore. I buy them as a collector's piece and because I think Paizo deserves the money. This isn't anything new.
What's slightly more concerning is that I almost never crack a PDF anymore either. They can take time to load and search, and aren't responsive to screen size. PDFs are essentially a digital recreation of a nearly outmoded information distribution system.
Nine point nine times out of ten I'm searching on Archives of Nethys (now that d20pfsrd has those popups, and the proprietary stuff isn't included) for rules or info.
Even the forums, which are invaluable as a source of unofficial rules clarification, are behind the times. Even after the redesign I don't think anyone would call these forums the forefront of modern discourse media.
Managing characters electronically has become exceedingly common, but is rife with its own issues, like the arm-and-a-leg prices of HeroLab or the fiddly, unreliability of custom excel character sheets. Online play compounds this problem, with Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds essentially requiring you to build your character again within their ecosystems.
As much as some tables resist the infiltration of technology to the table, others embrace it, or would embrace it more if the tools were available, or rely on it to even begin to play.
TL;DR:
I think neglecting digitization (beyond PDF distribution) of at least some portions of Paizo's business model is dangerous in the long run.
Some of the things I expect to see in the future somewhere:
Near Term:
* SRD app that connects to a purchase account, but is searchable offline, and maintained by a UI and UX expert. Can enable and disable content based on table specific preferences. Serves as proof of purchase for organized play. Stores recent and common searches.
* Character builder and format that can be shared (Like HeroLab Online) and interfaces with Roll20 and FG, without a middle-man. Acts as character verification for organized play. Can track exchanges between players and GM in a game. Obviates need for a physical character sheet.
Long Term:
* AI voice interface that: searches rules, tracks combat rounds, initiative, and damage, manages inventory
* Augmented reality heads up display with character sheet info, battle map AoE display, customizable AR miniatures.
What do you think vis-a-vis Pathfinder and technology?
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I’d like to see all those things for the reason that it helps the hobby expand. I think we will see a lot of innovation in the next decade but me personally I will always be a book and miniature guy because this how I enjoy to play. It also allows me to unplug from the world and I’d prefer not to have to plug in to enjoy it.
TBH, I'd not expect Paizo to do much of the above directly...rather license/partner with third-parties who specialize in those areas.
I wouldn't be surprised to see HLO ready with 2e in August, though I hope they're able to improve the offline functionality before then.
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I'm much the same way, although for Adventure Paths I do like having the physical book to reference during game in addition to the PDF.
I use Maptool to run games since most/all of my players have laptops; I can't remember the last time I actually drew a dungeon on a physical map.
Digital character sheets are amazing*, and I really hope the person who made the digital GM sheet for the playtest updates it for the final release.
I think the thing that would make the biggest difference out of all of your suggestions is a standardized character sheet file format; that would be a HUGE QoL improvement since it would massively open the door to third party app development. Among other things, it would mean I could fairly easily write a script to import characters into Maptool, which would be awesome.
*For anyone looking for a good PF1e digital character sheet, charactersheet.co.uk/pathfinder is by far the best I have found.
In the wake of D&D 3.5, I realized I was only using 6-8 of the books that I bought.
With PF1, I only purchased select hardcover books, and purchased Hero Lab data-sets instead of all the little books. I typically use 1-3 books to prepare adventures to run and zero to play.
With PF2, I only intend to use Hero Lab. I don't see a need to buy any books. Part of this is because I don't plan to run PF2 and will only play.
I think if Hero Lab and/or Roll20 wanted to release its own RPG entirely in a data-set form along with a free "how to play" and "DM support" website, they could change the industry.
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I'd hesitate to say that traditional core books are an outmoded delivery system, that feels like a value judgment about bound books in general based more on preference than on actual utility.
Speaking to it on the terms of preference: they may not be the preferred content delivery system for the demographic of which you are a member, but this hobby is still rife with players who swear by the paper part of pen and paper RPG's. Until those players are vastly outnumbered I don't see any company hewing too far from the format we're familiar with. I certainly don't see the charge toward new digital frontiers being spearheaded by the company who built their current brand on the backs of a customer base who drew a line in the sand on preserving their gaming experience in amber.
It's probably inevitable, but I feel d20 systems will be the hold outs to an extent - either dividing the market share between digital and print as long as possible (which I expect from the other guy) or creating partnerships with people who do the digital facing part while the core company focuses on the traditional methodology (which I kind of expect here)
For PDFs, I use the Xodo app on my 2-in-1 Windows PC/Tablet.
If I'm on Android, I use Orion viewer. Both load instantaneously for me. Although, Xodo is easier about adjusting screen size and all that.
Xodo is fantastically searchable.
Also, I like using the physical books. Books aren't bad. You just don't like them. So it's a preference thing. But PDFs are a lot more portable, I admit.
Try those apps, tho. You might find them useful.
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I would love to see paizo partner with some one and make something similar to DNDbeyond.
I hope all those things happen for people who want them.
For me, I prefer no digital resources (I even opt out of PDFs when publishers give me the option). It won’t really impact on my purchases unless there becomes too much which is digital only. Once it begins to feel like the hardcopy products is only part of the game, I’d stop playing, I suspect. (Though Paizo have introduced me to things like podcasts and twitch - so maybe if I had no choice, I’d make the leap).
I mean, one reason I prefer tabletop and traditional games to their more futuristic counterparts is that I genuinely prefer analog to digital. So as long as analog is an option, I hope people get what they want.
I would love to see paizo partner with some one and make something similar to DNDbeyond.
I think that would be wise.
That said, it is important to also have the rules available in a self-contained, digital form not that is not tied to any specific platform. Granted, there are options that are technically superior to PDF, but PDF is pretty well entrenched at this point.
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That said, it is important to also have the rules available in a self-contained, digital form not that is not tied to any specific platform.
This is where the digital argument breaks down for some of us players though. The idea that it is important and or necessary that the rules exist digitally, I've gamed for decades and never once had need of a ruleset in a digital format.
Is it a boon to some players - of course it is. Is it important, crucial, necessary? The game runs just fine in its classic state.
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For disadvantaged players that can't afford the books? Yes, it absolutely is.
Even then, by design not every player in a group needs a copy of the rules to play the game. I'm not saying digital copies don't have their uses, I'm not saying that there isn't an audience who benefits greatly from their existence. I'm just saying that the flipside of the argument that physical rulebooks are vestigial and thus unnecessary is that digital rulebooks are superfluous and thus unnecessary.
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But every player needs access to the rules, for those times when they are not with everyone else and want to reference them on their own.
I've been with my current game group for going on 14 years, there are players in that group who have never once purchased a book or a pdf - they rely on me or the other GM for access to the book. One or two have indeed used digital resources - but that doesn't alter that point that the game CAN and often IS played by many groups without a digital copy of the rules.
I guess we've taken the long way round to my ultimate point that there are two very different types of gamers as it comes to digital resources. Those who see them as absolutely vital and question the utility of the old heavy book, and those who see them as absolutely unnecessary when old reliable is still being printed. Neither side is right nor wrong, so asserting the necessity of either product over the other is little more than tribalism.
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For disadvantaged players that can't afford the books? Yes, it absolutely is.
Digital formats tend to be easier to modify for people who are visually impaired as well.
Personally, I don't see this format evolving too far beyond its current presentation for some time, licensed products and such excluded. There's a bit of a surge happening in the pen and paper market as people look for ways to disconnect digitally and have a more direct and socially interactive experience with people, so if a company were to evolve too far beyond the traditional toolset they'd run the risk of losing the very thing that attracts some portion of their fanbase.
There's a few games out there that try to bridge the gap between pen and paper and digital formats, but until the programs hit a point where they can accommodate the full flexibility of the human imagination while simultaneously providing a robust social experience, the books are still going to have a necessary role to play.
I think the trick lies in having as many versions of your story/experience available to players as you can manage while maintaining the integrity of the experience, to maximize the exposure and potential fanbase. The Kingmaker CRPG is a good example of this: it appeals to a lot of players and introduces the Kingmaker story to a new market, but it's fundamentally incapable of providing the experience I look for when I want to play an RPG. It's a good experience, and it's definitely Pathfinder, but it's something that would replace the time I spend playing video games, not something capable of filling the time I spend with TTRPGs or board games. For some people, the opposite is likely true; the Kingmaker CRPG likely allows them to experience the story in the way they most prefer without the looming threat of someone getting deployed, moving to a college on the other side of the country, having kids and no longer having time to play, etc.
I also still have players in the 22 – 40 age bracket who literally won't use an option unless they can see it in a print product. I could give them the exact thing they've always wanted in a PDF and they'll still end up playing something from off the shelf. There's some kind of psychology to referring to a book that I don't have the background to explain or even fully understand, but which I see in play all the time. Even after all this time there's still a strange alchemy that happens when someone opens up an RPG book, some kind of spiritual transference that just doesn't get conveyed in the same way by a digital product.
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I've been with my current game group for going on 14 years, there are players in that group who have never once purchased a book or a pdf - they rely on me or the other GM for access to the book. One or two have indeed used digital resources - but that doesn't alter that point that the game CAN and often IS played by many groups without a digital copy of the rules.
And as Michael mentioned, such a group excludes blind players.
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There's some kind of psychology to referring to a book that I don't have the background to explain or even fully understand, but which I see in play all the time. Even after all this time there's still a strange alchemy that happens when someone opens up an RPG book, some kind of spiritual transference that just doesn't get conveyed in the same way by a digital product.
You can take all of the favorites for that comment right there.
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There's some kind of psychology to referring to a book that I don't have the background to explain or even fully understand, but which I see in play all the time. Even after all this time there's still a strange alchemy that happens when someone opens up an RPG book, some kind of spiritual transference that just doesn't get conveyed in the same way by a digital product.
Yeah, I get that feeling when I saddle up on my mammoth that those whippersnappers riding those pansy horses will never quite understand.
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And as Michael mentioned, such a group excludes blind players.
The group that uses nothing but print copies isn't failing to be inclusive, because if one of their players were visually impaired they would likely address the issue by changing their gaming paradigm.
Issues of Accessibility extend beyond the kind of tribalism I was referring to in my comments. I could just as easily bring up the studies that show people with long term memory issues are able to store information better if they see it in traditional print than if they see it on a screen - but both of those arguments are moving beyond the kind of distinction we were both previously making about the needs of books and pdfs.
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I typed out a very long in depth answer that into a rant so I'm going to simply summarize my thoughts below:
-The future IS digital.
-The PDF is going to be around for a LONG LONG time, and I doubt it will be replaced any time soon.
-People are going to need new tools that not only help the PLAY but also LEARN the system from the ground up if the hobby is going to hope to attract and keep new players.
-Players need to get used to the idea that just because someone else in their group owns a RPG book, doesn't mean they have rights to use it- If it's a digital tool/source, EVERY User Account needs to be registered to single owner, and those tools/sources should be accessible to them and their household/family ONLY; NOT their entire gaming group, at least not without a special subscription or substantial service fee. The financial model is GOING to have to shift towards the GM and Players sharing the cost of a given RPG in the digital space, especially in light of Article 13 passing in the EU.
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We're talking about The Digital Future and yet the hobby is full of "computers are the worst, I check my e-mail once per month to see if my sister sent my anything and I don't allow any digital devices at my table" people. Worse, many of them wear their aversion to anything digital as a badge of honour which distinguishes them true OG playas from those vidya games anime smartphone kids.
D&D/PF fanbase is pretty much legendary for its techonophobia, so that's going to take a while before revolutionary concepts such as using your phone as a rules reference tool instead of slinging 20+ books across the table take hold.
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I love books! I have a whole library of books! I like the way they feel and smell.
But when the chips are down and I need to find a rule or a monster, I'll be searching Nethys. It's gotten to the point where the majority of the Paizo content I buy is via Hero Lab.
I feel like Paizo could be getting a much bigger piece of my wallet if they could think of a way to better cater to the way I actually consume their content.
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But every player needs access to the rules, for those times when they are not with everyone else and want to reference them on their own.
Could've used some of this in the PF2 Strategy Guide thread where people were saying all a transitioning player from PF1 needs is a concise write up of the 3 modes of play and character creation rules. And how not everyone reads or learns the rules and can just rely on other players to tell them what to do. Cause there are people who flat out say not every player needs access to the rules.
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There's some kind of psychology to referring to a book that I don't have the background to explain or even fully understand, but which I see in play all the time. Even after all this time there's still a strange alchemy that happens when someone opens up an RPG book, some kind of spiritual transference that just doesn't get conveyed in the same way by a digital product.Yeah, I get that feeling when I saddle up on my mammoth that those whippersnappers riding those pansy horses will never quite understand.
I probably should have qualified that with a "for some people" or an (at least for some). I can't really say it's directly age related though, because the people who only engage with print products seem to run a pretty wide gamut. Obviously there's a bit of a divide where younger people are more inclined to favor digital products and older individuals (I'm keeping these categories intentionally vague) tend to favor print products, but there are 20-somethings in two of the tables I participate in who just don't seem to use a product if they can't hold it in their hands and flip a page.
I, personally, am in this middle ground of needing to own everything in print and greatly preferring to read while holding a physical book, but if I need to look something up at the table I'm doing that with an app or website for expediency's sake. Even knowing exactly where to turn doesn't resolve as quickly as being able to tap like 5 buttons on my phone and have the full text at my fingertips. For me, it's very much a hybrid game where character building involves me finding ideas in the book and then plugging them into a form-fillable spreadsheet, and running the game involves a printed version of the adventure that I can mark up as necessary and a digital tool for quick and easy rules reference.
For disadvantaged players that can't afford the books? Yes, it absolutely is.
Counter: what about the disadvantaged players who don’t have a laptop worth mentioning, can’t afford the internet and only have a phone with a very small touch screen? (which is what I use for this forum)
For those players a one time cost permanent physical copy for the most important things is pretty good.
I use the PFSRD when needed because AoN isn’t friendly on my phone.
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For disadvantaged players that can't afford the books? Yes, it absolutely is.Counter: what about the disadvantaged players who don’t have a laptop worth mentioning, can’t afford the internet and only have a phone with a very small touch screen? (which is what I use for this forum)
For those players a one time cost permanent physical copy for the most important things is pretty good.
I don't think TOZ was really saying books aren't necessary, just that a digital interface of some kind is and should be a basic expectation in the modern world. It's not really an either/or thing at this point; having both print options and a digital format available is something I think is a real positive.
There's more nuanced questions related to how far those tools and the basic presentation can/should evolve before they lose whatever it is that's so special about TTRPGs, but I'm under the impression that TOZ is largely arguing that the print product and the digital products should both coexist and be readily available, which I fundamentally agree with.
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One thing you can't get by having everything on your phone as opposed to referencing a stack of heavy books.
Muscles.
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Fair enough, I should have been a bit clearer. Both should exist. When people start really pushing for digital everything I tend to get defensive because the more things that are pushed into a purely digital form, the more I am unable to participate in society. I am not so much a technophobe as I am a forced technological caveman.
No one is saying that pdfs or books should go away, but since this kerfuffle seems to stem from my statements let me be very clear about where I was coming from. I was taking a jab at the fact that we tend to use absolutist language when referring to digital resources and convenience language when referring to print resources. We say that digital tools are necessary but we call books archaic, I was being relatively hyperbolic by doubling down on the idea that the game can be played without PDFs to try to highlight the disparity between the two viewpoints which is frankly kind of funny when you realize the nature of the hobby we’re discussing.
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But you don’t even need pen and paper to play. You need nothing but you and your friends.
And dice of a sort, either physical dice or a digital roller. Or else its just RPS (Role Playing Stories) instead of RPG (Role Playing Game).
If it wasn’t clear I was talking about a societal trend that goes well beyond just gaming. I started typing one of my rants about internet being a poor tax but I will save everyone that bit.
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But Amber Diceless is not Pathfinder the game in question in the thread titled:What do you think about the digital future of Pathfinder? A game very much in need of a random number generator to be played. You may not need pen an paper but you do need more than you and your friends. I mean I assume even for Amber a ruleset exists.
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Yeah, I get that feeling when I saddle up on my mammoth that those whippersnappers riding those pansy horses will never quite understand.
Bogus implication.
Age and maturity don't detract from a tool's appropriateness in its place. A hammer is an ancient design, but when it's time to embed a nail into wood, it's the right tool. Sure, there are nailguns and sure, there are times when a screw is more appropriate than a nail, but hammer and nail live on.
Point being that there's a place in the world for digital RPG tools and there's a place in the world for books. A wise person recognizes that and reaches for the right tool at the right time. A fool mocks others for having differing needs.
I would like the ability to download my PDFs of resources, adventures, and scenarios directly into my iPad, though, rather than making a pit-stop through my PC.
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I would like the ability to download my PDFs of resources, adventures, and scenarios directly into my iPad, though, rather than making a pit-stop through my PC.
If you have a pdf reader app that can unzip archives (goodreader can do it) you can already do this today.
I would LOVE to build robust tools for Pathfinder. I've asked to time and time again. I can't get Paizo to take me seriously, apparently. Their licensing model is their worst enemy in a digital world.
When I've talked to Vic about this, I utterly failed at getting anything set in motion simply because I didn't already have a company established even though I can prove my qualifications very quickly. I was flatly denied before I even got the chance though. I also have very qualified colleagues who would love to do this. I simply don't understand why this space is hard to improve.
The long and short of Paizo's stance as I understand it is that if you aren't already a large company or a company that is a long-time incumbent in the RPG space, you have no chance.
As I understand it, for all licenses, you don't need to be a long-time incumbent. However, you do need to have a proven track record of delivery, not just the technical skill for whatever product is under consideration.
My discussions have more been related to non-digital products, but I got the impression it was a universal preference across all their various brands/product lines to not license to startup companies.
Agreed, which is unfortunate. In my case I didn't even get to show a business plan so there was no chance to demonstrate ability beyond technical skill. Correction, I didn’t even get to demonstrate that. Startups are great at innovation. Which, since their content and brand is tightly licensed, I don't see the risk of releasing something that would make Paizo look bad as there's no reason to not have a review and approval period. It would take some time to review, but quality becomes apparent fairly quickly.
I'm hard pressed to think they don't review other products they license. In fact, I know they do given commentary around Goblinworks, Owlcat, and the HeroLab competitor that fell through (can't remember the name). Even more, there is such a rich area about Pathfinder Society and online management that could be possible with Paizo as the hub. I simply have no faith these and other areas will be fully modernized and will be perpetually several years behind the state of the art.
I'd have to say their strategy of only dealing with "proven delivery" is pretty bad at this point. Of the products I listed before only one has been successful in market. Just saying. Granted, I'm not aware of other digital products they partnered to create.