Can a Trompe L’oeil creator really kill all Golarion gods with an army of demons at level 5?


Rules Questions

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Java Man wrote:
I am always amused at the arrogance, the idea that a PC has come up with the prefect plan that no Runelord, Archdevil, wizard king of Azlant, drow matriarch or great wyrm dragon has ever conceived of.

True it's like they never go to an adventure before, and since the live for more than 100 year they don't need killer combos

I wish that Pathfinder create a campaign to defeat good, like angels to balance the game it's almost boring to always fight evil in every campaign s

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Lelomenia wrote:
you can’t Fabricate a painting.

Why not?

Quote:

Fabricate

Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

Quote:
Mineral: a solid, naturally occurring inorganic substance

A painting seems like a valid product, the materials are cheap (and I don't think they'd count as minerals), the painting itself isn't a magic item, and most paintings aren't many cubic feet.

For starter, for the usual reason why most Fabricate tricks fail:

Quote:
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.

Unless you are making a monochromatic painting, you aren't converting material of one sort, but several sorts of materials.

A monochromatic painting isn't a portrait unless the portraited creature is monochromatic.

Second, you still need to make your craft (painting) check and hit 20. As casting a spell is a distracting activity you can't take 10, so you need a few tries, probably (or a high skill).

Fabricate is 5th level spell, so you can't cast it at level 5 unless you have a scroll. For sure you will not cast it a few hundreds of times.

It is a portrait, not a work of fantasy, so you need to have seen the original creature. Good luck seeing some decently powerful outsider at level 5 and survive.

Liberty's Edge

Zepheri wrote:
Grankless wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
Reckless wrote:
This character has hit points, and gods don't. Gods win.

Still God can die.

Aroden,Acavna, Amaznen are dead. Ydersius a serpenforlk God die by the hand of Savith a fighter 20/champion 6

Even is Pathfinder don't show you they stats it don't mean they don't have it,

None of those have stats. They die due to narrative. Ydersius is still alive and wriggling around the Darklands even after both getting his head chopped off AND the events of Serpents' Skull.
But aroden it self say that the god can die. Even if there are narrative or chopped off,a mortal can still kill a God.

Do you consider a rank 6 Mythic character a "mortal"?

Liberty's Edge

Zepheri wrote:
Java Man wrote:
I am always amused at the arrogance, the idea that a PC has come up with the prefect plan that no Runelord, Archdevil, wizard king of Azlant, drow matriarch or great wyrm dragon has ever conceived of.

True it's like they never go to an adventure before, and since the live for more than 100 year they don't need killer combos

I wish that Pathfinder create a campaign to defeat good, like angels to balance the game it's almost boring to always fight evil in every campaign s

A few of those exist, I would be interested in a high-quality campaign of law against chaos, with good and evil being secondary factors.

I tried that once with AD&D 2nd edition, with the big, monolithic, Lawful, and mostly evil human empire patterned on the Roman Empire against the Chaotic demihuman and humanoids tribes patterned on the Celtic tribes.
Elves and goblins fighting side by side against humans supremacists.
It was fun but I wasn't good enough as a GM to keep it running beyond level 10.
Probably Pathfinder and other games based on 3rd ed. D&D aren't appropriate for a scenario like that one as the characters rise in power too fast. 2nd ed. AD&D had a slower progression.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
Grankless wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
Reckless wrote:
This character has hit points, and gods don't. Gods win.

Still God can die.

Aroden,Acavna, Amaznen are dead. Ydersius a serpenforlk God die by the hand of Savith a fighter 20/champion 6

Even is Pathfinder don't show you they stats it don't mean they don't have it,

None of those have stats. They die due to narrative. Ydersius is still alive and wriggling around the Darklands even after both getting his head chopped off AND the events of Serpents' Skull.
But aroden it self say that the god can die. Even if there are narrative or chopped off,a mortal can still kill a God.

Do you consider a rank 6 Mythic character a "mortal"?

Well next time I will plane shift to forgotten realms and steal cyric god bane sword to kill them all muahahaha


Zepheri wrote:
I wish that Pathfinder create a campaign to defeat good

Actually such an AP exists: Hell's Vengeance

According to the reviews it has some issues, but if a GM is motivated to address them and the players buy the "we are lawful evil" theme, it could be fun...


Zepheri wrote:
Java Man wrote:
I am always amused at the arrogance, the idea that a PC has come up with the prefect plan that no Runelord, Archdevil, wizard king of Azlant, drow matriarch or great wyrm dragon has ever conceived of.

True it's like they never go to an adventure before, and since the live for more than 100 year they don't need killer combos

I wish that Pathfinder create a campaign to defeat good, like angels to balance the game it's almost boring to always fight evil in every campaign s

Try the Hell's Vengeance AP, where you are working for the Thrune family supporting the Infernal Empress against a rebellion lead by followers of Iomedae.

You also might consider the Skulls and Shackles AP where you play as a pirates.

The most neutral of campaigns is the Kingmaker AP. The party can be any alignment, and the main enemy are evil Fae.

Having the enemy be evil make sense when you're thinking about making a kingdom. After all, there has to be some conflict between your PCs and the enemy. Having the enemy doing something objectionable is the standard trope for most adventures. Having the objectionable thing be evil is easy. Having the objectionable action be from good people is more difficult.

And even with an evil party, having the opponents be evil is easy. There is absolutely no reason to believe that your party of random miscreants will be lovingly embraced by the Army of Ogres bent on conquering Gallorian, or the cultists trying to free Rovagug, or the plot to free a Runelord from his (self-imposed) bindings. It is much more likely the band of murder hobos will look at the evil organization and realize stopping them will be beneficial to them (and fun).


Some friends and their friends - I'm not in this game - are playing Kingmaker as a bunch of evil characters ranging from 'adventurer who does what it takes, no matter the cost' to 'mustache-twirling BBEG'. They've got at least two of the latter.


Have they not errata'd or otherwise nerfed the template yet?


No. And since they've released an entirely new version of Pathfinder since then, they never will.

So we're left with the practical difficulties of creating these paintings, plus "this won't work due to intervention by the gods/the GM". Which isn't a sign of a well-defined game feature. But it's probably intended more as an option for NPCs than PCs anyway.


Zepheri wrote:


I wish that Pathfinder create a campaign to defeat good, like angels to balance the game it's almost boring to always fight evil in every campaign s

I warmly recommend Way of the Wicked, the most fun I have had as a GM in a long time. We have just finished book 3 where the players have slaughtered a valley full of paladins, archons, angels, azatas etc.

You start as a prisoners going to be executed for your crimes.
In the end you will be the Evil Tyrants ruling their kingdom.


Matthew Downie wrote:

No. And since they've released an entirely new version of Pathfinder since then, they never will.

So we're left with the practical difficulties of creating these paintings, plus "this won't work due to intervention by the gods/the GM". Which isn't a sign of a well-defined game feature. But it's probably intended more as an option for NPCs than PCs anyway.

yeah, i dont think anyone will argue that Trompe isn’t wildly unbalanced and completely unsupportable as a player option. It makes Sacred Geometry look like Eschew Materials.


I mean...that and the fact that its from a very specific, niche book that honestly i doubt the majority of pathfinder players own. I expect most peoples exposure to it is from internet discussion and AoN rather than browsing horror adventures.

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