this is my first full campaign and I know this class very well however because of that I know its EXTREMELY powerful in terms of damage or healing (specifically the blast) and can use some very good utility I was hoping for some guidance from people who have had them in their campaigns and if there have been problems or not.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So... first off this is in the playtest section of the forum so you probably want to go to a different section to get more views on this question.
Secondly my recommendation in general for new GMs is to start with the assumption of core rule book and advanced players guide only and add additional books as desired. Starting with the assumption of all books allowed and banning things as they come up is going to be a huge cognitive load for you.
So what the kineticist has going for it is that it has a high optimization floor and a low optimization ceiling, which is to say it does not take much to build a pretty good one but it is nearly impossible to build one that reaches the same power level as a really well built blaster sorcerer. So for a group that struggles to make powerful characters a kineticist will be very strong whereas for a group that makes very powerful characters, a kineticist will be comparatively weak.
One thing about the occult classes in particular is that they are somewhat complex, and have a lot of moving parts. So I would only allow something if you have a good idea how it works, because sometimes things can get unreasonable specifically because some rule which is supposed to keep that from happening isn't being enforced correctly (like the people who find the swashbuckler is unreasonable since they aren't enforcing the limit on immediate actions (it's one)). For the Kineticist the trouble spots are going to be all around burn, specifically you want to know how you can heal it (you can't without resting for 8 hours) and how you can reduce burn costs (notably infusion specialization does not apply to metakinesis or composite blasts).
If you're uncomfortable with how something works, just say so and promise to get to it in a later game. Pathfinder's been around for 10 years so some things are just intended to appeal more to people who are experienced with it.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
My advice is to not ban it, or anything else, for that matter.
Learn and grow from the experience of having such a character at your table.
A running philosophy of chess players is that the only way to improve is to play against a better opponent.
Kind of goes along with the whole, if you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room phrase.
Research it if it intimidates you, study its habits, learn its strengths and weaknesses... above all else, don't ban it from a fantasy game.
No.
Well ... Not because it's OP, at least.
It's not, not really.
Now, it is however quite unique in its mechanics, so you need to make sure both you and the relevant player know what's going on. Messing things up can turn anything into a monster and that's the source of half the myths about the kineticist - positive or negative.
You seem to know the class, so you should be fine. Otherwise, not having the time or means to learn yet one more class would be a good enough reason to not allow it.
If you're okay with briefing your player, might as well let it happen.
It also depends on the rest of the group and how they're doing what they're doing, as PossibleCabbage said. Good points there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the common answer is that it's going to be no, it's in no way OP in terms of damage or healing.
As Cabbage is sort of getting at and what may have happened is that you may have seen a kineticist player use abilities in ways they cannot, spiking the damage they do.
Here's a simple list.
Utility powers - Nothing lowers the cost of burn for these.
Metakinesis and composite blasts - Gather power can lower the cost for these.
Infusions - Gather power and infusion specialisations can lower the cost of these.
|
I feel strongly that, regarding what a DM should or should not allow, one should consider three critical questions.
Are you reasonably familiar with the mechanics in question?
Yes.
Are you trying to be reasonably open-minded in letting the player play what he or she will enjoy?
And by far the most important — the one that trumps anything else — are the various PCs balanced with each other?!
If the PCs are reasonably balanced with each other and you don’t have one dramatically greater or lesser than the others, allow the character build.
If you’re not sure during character creation then playtest it in game and, if the PC is significantly greater or lesser than the other PCs, then work with the player to fix the PC.
|
technically, you can "wall" the blast for two free hits (once when you place it, once when you move through it)
other than that, a kinectist can "burst" if given a round to charge, or gets the drop on someone,
They have some utility, depending on which element you choose, but for the most part won't be out damaging any melee counterpart unless they go melee themselves. (and even then, its close) and being a d8 hd they won't be as tanky (unless say they are geo)
I just can't think of any way that you should ban the class. I mean, if you haven't banned a wizard/arcanist at this point you shouldn't ban this class.
Just read the kineticist chapter and review any options your player wants to take and you should be fine.
Second W E Ray... Only ban if you are unfamiliar with the mechanics and would need to delay the flow to verify or check to ensure results...
I had banned Occult Classes when the book first came out because I had not the time to get into them and get familiar. I have read enough now that I allow dipping and the next game allowing them from the beginning.
Even though I still don't know enough about how to maximize any builds, I read enough to be familiar and I can read more and learn more as the game goes on and the Occult Class PC rises in levels.
My advice is to not ban it, or anything else, for that matter.
Eh.... You can drop a dumptruck full of anvils on Wild Rager.
As others have mentioned, a kineticist is actually on the weak side when compared to an optimized archer character (qinggong zen archer monk, for example) or a specialized blaster sorcerer*. Granted, the kineticist doesn't need to worry about ammunition or spell slots, but they do need to worry about burn; they can't actually use their most powerful abilities very often over the course of a given day.
Also, make sure that the player is running the class properly. For example, kinetic blasts (other than with the very weak Flurry of Blasts infusion) are pretty much standard actions only; the Chain infusion is decent, but it only works with electric blasts, adds 3 burn, and is a 5th-level infusion (minimum 11th class level).
*- and much less potential trouble than a Core-only [fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 with Extended heroism, a glove of storing with a lesser rod of Quicken metamagic, prepared true strike and Quickened true strike, and some pearls of power for 1st and 5th level spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh yeah, that's a potential trouble spot. Kineticist wild talents have levels, which are not "the level at which you can take this ability." Instead they are supposed to model spells, for which a level is available roughly only if you are twice that level.
I've seen people who had the kineticist get out of hand since they were taking 3rd level infusions at character level 3.
Yeah, echoing most of the others here. Power-wise the kineticist should be nothing to be worried about. But the thing is just so mechanically different from the rest of the game, that most new players are going to get something wrong about some part of it.
|
TLDR: Nah
NRLRA:
No you shouldn't have to ban it, but if you're having trouble wrapping your head around the class just take an hour or two researching it, learning how Burn works, understanding that they DO have practically unlimited minor Blasting abilities and research ways other GMs have adapted to the class.
Kin is nowhere near as disruptive to play even at a fully optimized level than even the most BASIC of Summoners (Clogs the init and DESTROYS the Action Economy) or Shifter (This class is just a mess, they're what... 2 full Rewrites in and 3 waves of Errata for a Class that requires you memorize the Polymorph rules and own every Bestiary) would cause at your table.
this is my first full campaign and I know this class very well however because of that I know its EXTREMELY powerful in terms of damage or healing (specifically the blast) and can use some very good utility I was hoping for some guidance from people who have had them in their campaigns and if there have been problems or not.
Personally im not a fan of banning things from players so id say no, however as a kineticist player i can also say that the class can be complex for a new player so i can see why you would want to ban it. However once you wrap ypur head around it its fairly simple to run and understand. Ypu could ban it to make your life easier but thats one something taken away from your players (something fun in my opinion) aswell as the oppertunity to learn as a gm to run complex builds. Kineticists are complex but compared to some other builds ive seen there a cake walk. Of course allowing it also makes it slightly more complicated on you and as a new GM the less complicated the better. Its honestly up to you so ill end my answer to your question with a question. Which would you prefere, a more complicated start to your campaign and a learning opertunity, or an easier start while taking away something from your players. I should also warn you (speaking from experiance) banning things can be a slippery slope ypu ban one thing and next thing you know youve banned half the options available to a player.
|
|
As others have suggested, ban it (and anything else that falls in this category) if you do not 100% understand the mechanics of the class. It’s certainly complex and definitely not a class for new players.
But if you do the math and pit a kineticist and an optimized base fighter together you can see that at low levels the kineticist can seem overpowered while at higher levels the fighter still wins out in terms of potential damage output. They SEEM like they’re OP because of all the dice and the meta magic stuff but at the end of the day they have their weaknesses just like any other class and their damage output is only as good as if not weaker than other optimized builds. The one thing they have over casters is sustainability. But any blaster caster can still out-damage a kineticist if built right.