Flurry doesn't allow natural attacks at all (not even as secondary attacks) unless you have feral combat training, and I'm betting the monk isn't going to put that sort of investment in. Otherwise that summary seems accurate.
On a wizard or arcanist this sort of spell comes close to making them able to usefully engage in melee on its own if they have the ability scores to support it at all. On a full BAB class yeah, well.
The combination encourages teamwork and gives the spotlight to the martial character; I'd say it's a great thing to allow. Far more preferable than the spellcaster soloing an encounter with a single spell (say, a Dazing Fireball, also available at this level), leaving the martials without any real ability to contribute.
That said, I would also not give players a lot of free pre-buff time unless they're actively scouting ahead. Really, pre-buffing is the real issue. And if they aren't pre-buffing, then consider upping the challenge rating appropriately to their average power level.
In my experiences, party members are rarely willing to accept my polymorphs from brown fur. “Form of” is often enough change to almost require its own character sheet.
In my experiences, party members are rarely willing to accept my polymorphs from brown fur. “Form of” is often enough change to almost require its own character sheet.
I know at my table most players have Hero Lap open on a computer.
It's literally one button to check if you've set the form ahead of time, about a minute to set the form otherwise.
If things are banned to keep things reasonable, I would include this.
Are you talking about the brownfur, the monstrous physique spell or the Thriae Queen?
The player is pointing out that the Unchained Monk lacks the language you're referring to (that both normal Monk and Brawler possess). Here's the exact wording for Unchained Monk:
"(...) He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).
Natural weapons are still weapons for most things. You can not, ever, add natural weapons to a Flurry of Blows.
RAW I'm guessing a Tiger is "allowed" to make an unarmed attack if it wants rather than using Bite/Claw/Claw...which means we'd have a Flurrying Monk Tiger using Unarmed attacks rather than natural weapons?
There's actually a lack of rules on the exact topic, but nothing says you lose the ability to make an unarmed strike, and you can explicitly use any part of your body to make unarmed strikes, so RAW it does work. Can get pretty weird when your unarmed strikes with claws or bite only do bludgeoning damage, though.
I believe he specifically wants to turn the monk into a Thriae Queen.
I take it he hasn't found the Deathsnatcher yet? Or, possibly even worse, Great Old One Yig.
Brown-Fur Transmuter's 9th level ability is very strong, because combining (spersonal range) polymorph spells with strength based full BAB characters is very strong. For Monstrous Physique, unMonk isn't actually that good a target (the natural attacks are wasted, pounce is mostly wasted, most other special abilities are natural attack dependent and thus wasted, and MP lets you keep your weapons and armor). The Monk would gain just about the same benefit from turning into a Quetzalcoatlus via Beast Shape III.
Will it be disruptive? Depends on the campaign, the Monk's build, and the other party members. Still, we're talking about 5th level wizard spells. Is MP3 or BS3 worse than Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Cloudkill, Magic Jar etc.? Buffing martials is generally the least disruptive playstyle a full caster can pick.
A sting attack at -5 from his normal Flurry (this sting is a *staggering* plus 1d6 Con poison at DC 17 (10 + 5 (HD) + 2 (Con)) whose DC would increase over time)Is that all correct?
The save DC will actually be 10 + spell level 5 + arcanist's casting modifier (not con). So, probably even higher than 17. But as has been pointed out, it can't be used with a flurry of blows.
It's not like there aren't already ways for martials to get access to these spells though. They're just more expensive. A scroll of Monstrous Physique IV is only 1650 gold, which isn't usually that much gold at level 12, when the Arcanist can cast it on allies. And there are plenty of ways to get enough Use Magic Device by that level.
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Hi, Balkoth!
I think the spell will be outside the power level you are trying to set for your campaign. I suggest you tell the arcanist you are not going to allow it. If the player is upset, you can point out all the wonderful things brown-fur transmuters can still do (overland flight for everyone! Who wants gravity bow?)
We had fun in a PFS scenario with an ant hauled character in thrae queen form flying off with a final blade...
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Second, your point in general is what I expected him to be doing -- he asked me the night before the session if he could switch. But he seems to be thinking there's not actually many other options. Do you have any more in mind you could list?
There's a few that are worth preparing for most groups, though many of the ones I would normally recommend are either not in your campaign's allowed books list or are far more useful at lower levels. Here's a few that will still be useful:
long arm
gravity bow
transformation (at 12th level)
the various allowed polymorph spells, including beast shape and elemental body
mnemonic enhancer or mage's lucubration can be great utility spells if you have a lot of other prep casters in the party. Especially mage's lucubration when the cleric says "I only prepped that once today!"
Beast Shape (core rulebook) also would give your monk the same +15 damage per hit.
And I think it would make more sense to compare to where your monk would be at if he just went with permanency enlarge person, which should be +4 strength in your group, and would move him from 2d8 to 3d8 (+7.5 damage per hit?). Yes, huge form is better, but is it better by a full caster’s surprise round/first round standard action?
Again, I don’t support allowing that spell, as it sounds like the player is wants it for power reasons based on a misunderstanding of the rules. I’m just saying past level 10 effects on that power level (specifically huge monk; there’s stronger things that can be done with that spell) are ubiquitous even in core.
I am the player in question and I feel I can speak to this.
Two things, permanency is not allowed in this game and second, I picked it because I thought it would be a cool buff to give to my allies to buff their damage instead of trying to just kill things myself. I want to buff everyone in the party to increase our overall fighting power. This is a challenging game so I thought I needed to come at it in that fashion. I don't really care if its beast shape or MP, they are both equal on our monk (Who is our only BAB melee character.) I just want to let people go ham a bit since I planned to use it on our cleric and Oracle when they wanted to mix it up in melee also.
I don't want anyone to outshine others, if anything, I am sitting back and letting our two damage dealers do their thing. We have 3 support characters.
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as a rule of thumb, if any of these transmutation spells (dragon shape, giant shape etc)gets overboard you can always rule that the materiel component's price is too much for a standard spell pouch to produce -each of these spells has something along the lines "M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)"
spell component pouch :
"A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch."
it's not very far fetched to rule that a gold dragon scale or a part from a Thriae Queen is worth a lot of money. it's sure is a hell lot more rare then a pinch of bat guano.
this way the players have to work to get their power-up and have to be careful not to spam it on a daily basis
specifically there is this unique humanoid creature (which im not going to name )who players like to use as the base of a transmutation spell even though the lore state there is only one of it in existence. when one of my players tried to use it as a base for his spell i told him: " there is no way your common spell pouch comes with this specific creature's body part in it, you want to turn into it? fine, first hunt it to get a part of it for your spells THEN you can use it."
Buffing martials is generally the least disruptive playstyle a full caster can pick.I mean, when the Paladin in the group uses Smite Evil he gains 11 damage per hit. Against one enemy only. On a very limited resource pool.
This buff would add 15 damage per hit against ALL enemies for 11 minutes per cast.
I'd rather not have the Paladin feel like he's weak when Smiting Evil...
That's why I said "Depends on (...) the other party members.", but you also have to look at a bigger picture. A Paladin has better saves, incredible self-healing, condition removal, and spells, and smite evil also grants an attack bonus, and circumvents damage reduction. Quite frankly, Paladin has so much defensive and utility features, him not also being the best at dealing damage should be a good thing. Quite frankly, if the player wanted the most offense, he shouldn't have picked Paladin but e.g. Barbarian.
If you do decide to allow Monstrous Physique, the Paladin would probably be an even better target than the Monk.But the real question is, will the Paladin feel better when the Arcanist simply possesses enemies with Magic Jar, or kills a bunch of them with a single casting of Cloudkill?
Quite frankly, if you really want to lower a campaign's power level, ban tier 1 and 2 classes (all full casters plus Summoner).
First of all, nearly every form of flight is banned so Overland Flight is out.
Shouldn't polymorphing into a flying creature be banned under those grounds, anyway?
Second, your point in general is what I expected him to be doing -- he asked me the night before the session if he could switch. But he seems to be thinking there's not actually many other options. Do you have any more in mind you could list?
There aren't actually that many, at least not in those books. Apart from the various polymorph effects, there's Eyes of the Void, Planar Adaptation, Fluid Form, Transformation, Ethereal Jaunt, Iron Body, Time Stop, and Fiery Body. Ethereal Jaunt allows flying, don't know if that's allowed, Transformation is mostly useless for a full BAB class, and Planar Adaptation is obviously very situational.
our monk (Who is our only BAB melee character.)
Wait, so, do you have a Paladin, or not?
Wait, so, do you have a Paladin, or not?
Ranged Pally. I would have used it on him but best I can give him is more dex by making him smaller. I did plan on doing that but ofc I would need MP or Fey form to do such a thing which at this point, I doubt will be happening. I would love to have something good to give to everyone, I made a support caster for a reason.
Our ranged pally has already lost Manyshot and Divine Bond which affected his damage on top of haste no longer giving an extra attack. Just to give you some context.
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Wait, so, do you have a Paladin, or not?Ranged Pally. I would have used it on him but best I can give him is more dex by making him smaller. I did plan on doing that but ofc I would need MP or Fey form to do such a thing which at this point, I doubt will be happening. I would love to have something good to give to everyone, I made a support caster for a reason.
Our ranged pally has already lost Manyshot and Divine Bond which affected his damage on top of haste no longer giving an extra attack. Just to give you some context.
Holy cow. I'll be honest, it's going to be incredibly difficult for anyone here to give meaningful balance input with house-rules like no flying and haste not giving an extra attack. Those two examples are practically factored in to the CR of mid-level encounters. Monstrous Physique isn't overpowered normally, but if it's a campaign with no magical healing and where weapons cost double to enchant, then it's a different matter.
Holy cow. I'll be honest, it's going to be incredibly difficult for anyone here to give meaningful balance input with house-rules like no flying and haste not giving an extra attack. Those two examples are practically factored in to the CR of mid-level encounters. Monstrous Physique isn't overpowered normally, but if it's a campaign with no magical healing and where weapons cost double to enchant, then it's a different matter.Wait, so, do you have a Paladin, or not?Ranged Pally. I would have used it on him but best I can give him is more dex by making him smaller. I did plan on doing that but ofc I would need MP or Fey form to do such a thing which at this point, I doubt will be happening. I would love to have something good to give to everyone, I made a support caster for a reason.
Our ranged pally has already lost Manyshot and Divine Bond which affected his damage on top of haste no longer giving an extra attack. Just to give you some context.
In a campaign that heavily house ruled there's not much point in asking anyone except your DM.
Anything we advise here will simply be overruled.
In a campaign that heavily house ruled there's not much point in asking anyone except your DM.
Anything we advise here will simply be overruled.
He is the one who made this thread, not I. He was asking your input on this.
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So...flying is banned, most metamagic is banned, and now you're seeking validation to ban polymorph spells on friendly martials...dude, just ban 9th level spellcasters and be done with it.
No offense, but I would honestly hate to be a wizard in your party and have to constantly walk on eggshells because half my class is banned. Worse still, if the other half starts overpreforming, it might get banned, too.
Complex bans are a headache on both the player and the GM. Just ban tier 1 and 2 classes and both you and your players will have a much simpler, much more relaxed time.
Quite frankly, if the player wanted the most offense, he shouldn't have picked Paladin but e.g. Barbarian.He's an archer paladin who was one-rounding Frost Giants at level 9 (more specifically, Frost Giants with +50% HP due to maximizing PC hit points to try to reduce the rocket tag slightly).
That only makes my point: The paladin is powerful enough, the player doesn't have a right to b~%@+ about the Monk being good as well.
Maybe I'm missing something, but Cloudkill only seems to affect targets with 6 HD or less in terms of instant kill.
It's not the instant kill part, but the fact that it does con damage even with a made save. It's not exactly a boss killer spell, but it can severely damage or even kill a bunch of enemies.
Quite frankly, if you really want to lower a campaign's power level, ban tier 1 and 2 classes (all full casters plus Summoner).I'd really rather not ban Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards especially. Others are mostly, what, Oracle/Shaman/Witch/Arcanist?
Psychic is missing from the list, even though it's about the weakest from the bunch. Why not? These are the classes most likely to upset inter-party balance. These are the classes the hardest to challenge. Especially tier 1 classes (prepared full casters, plus spontaneous full casters with a means or circumventing their limited spells known, e.g. Sorcerer with Mnemonic Vestment) not only have the raw power (like how a Wildshaped Druid is better than most martials even without using spells), but also have enough versatility to solve a huge number of problems.
The real power of high tier class is not even what they can do in combat, even though that's certainly part of it, the biggest part is probably what they can do out of combat, or before combat starts. Full casters are often able to overcome obstacles that would severely challenge other characters. The concept is called "narrative power", the ability to shape the story instead of merely following it.
Narrative power is the ability to not follow the dungeon crawl, but to fly, teleport, sneak, burrow etc. to the objective instead. Narrative power is the ability to grab the key from the guardhouse (through the window via mage hand, by stealthing in, whatever) instead of dealing with the guard. Narrative power is the ability to fly, teleport, or create a bridge across the chasm to not deal with the guarded/trapped/breaking-apart-once-you-are-in-the-middle bridge. And yes, narrative power can also be killing the enemy before he can use the intended tactics (like calling for backup or teleporting away).
I have a Shaman in my current campaign (I did ban full casters, but the player asked for an exception because he really wanted to play the clas after being GM for the last couple of years). The player gives me an explicit chance to veto any spell he picks, no hard feelings, but the character is still warping what I can challenge the party with. Among the problems the Shaman solved were a custom curse which I had to put into the campaig earlier than intended (i.e. before the party turned 5th level), and a dungeon with an entry too narrow to get through (Stone Shape).
I've seen a Sorcerer casting Invisibility on the entire party so that we could sneak past enemies and ambush a boss. I've seen a Druid use Air Walk so that another PC could enter a guarded building through an upstairs window, surprising the enemies within. I've seen Color Spray ending whole encounters, and Fireballs damaging enemies so much that the fight was decided before the enemies could reach us. I've seen Black Tentacles removing the mooks from a fight, allowing us to focus fire on the boss.
And these are all exmaples of 8th level and below...
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I've seen
...things you people wouldn't believe.
Dazing fireballs winning encounters off the planes of golarion.
I watched Color Spray... dazzle in the dark near the beginner's tavern.
All those... encounters will be lost... in time... like tears... in rain.