New rule book please.

[Igor Horvat]

Hi!

I was wandering, if it is possible to get a new rulebook with all changes integrated in their places where there should be.

Rulebook is already pretty hard to navigate back and forth and with added listing with "patches" it's a nightmare.

Wouldn't be easier even for you to open the file and directly write new stuff over the obsolete?

[Gorbacz]

It would be, but laying out the rulebook costs time and money and takes editors away from your ongoing projects. Your best bet is a fan-made updated rulebook, which I believe is floating around somewhere.

[Vic Ferrari]

There's really no need for any rulebooks until actual release of PF2; could've just released waves of PDF packets.

I saved all the 5th Ed playtest packet; good thing, too, some of the material in them is better than the final product.

[Siro]

Yes, I would love to have an updated rulebook {6 updates can get somewhat hard to keep track of}. However I can understand why it most likely will not be done= it would cost more than a bit of time and money to do, for something that will go under further changes, for something that will not be used after a year.

Sadly {at least for me} it will be flipping through documents until I'm no longer lazy and either learn how to do inserts, or hunt down a updated document.

[Igor Horvat]

Gorbacz wrote:

It would be, but laying out the rulebook costs time and money and takes editors away from your ongoing projects. Your best bet is a fan-made updated rulebook, which I believe is floating around somewhere.

Really?

by how much?

Instead of writting in separate file, just write it in rulebook file.

Save and put it on web page. Same as this files.

They are not printing anything

[PCScipio]

A couple of fans have written in the errata, up to 1.5. Maybe Paizo should ask them the secret to their superpowers. :)

[Siro]

PCScipio wrote:

A couple of fans have written in the errata, up to 1.5. Maybe Paizo should ask them the secret to their superpowers. :)

Thank you so much, I can keep being lazy {at until up the 1.5 stuff anyways, which is a big help.}

[Gorbacz]

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

It would be, but laying out the rulebook costs time and money and takes editors away from your ongoing projects. Your best bet is a fan-made updated rulebook, which I believe is floating around somewhere.

Really?

by how much?

Instead of writting in separate file, just write it in rulebook file.

Save and put it on web page. Same as this files.

They are not printing anything

By much.

You still need to lay out the PDF file. All the changes in content mean that you need to realign the text, tables, boxes and art, adjust the index, adjust the bookmarks, do pagination, resolve any "great, now this art doesn't fit on the page" issues, do editing passes etc. etc. etc.

And you can't ignore all of the above and throw together a hack job for Igor the Invested Fan, because Jane the Casually Curious will download the file as well.

And if the design comes over to the publisher and says "hey, we want 1.7 to go out after all" you need to do that all over again on the top of 6 times you've done it so far.

[Voss]

Having neglected to do it before, they only need to do it once.

[Igor Horvat]

Gorbacz wrote:

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

It would be, but laying out the rulebook costs time and money and takes editors away from your ongoing projects. Your best bet is a fan-made updated rulebook, which I believe is floating around somewhere.

Really?

by how much?

Instead of writting in separate file, just write it in rulebook file.

Save and put it on web page. Same as this files.

They are not printing anything

By much.

You still need to lay out the PDF file. All the changes in content mean that you need to realign the text, tables, boxes and art, adjust the index, adjust the bookmarks, do pagination, resolve any "great, now this art doesn't fit on the page" issues, do editing passes etc. etc. etc.

And you can't ignore all of the above and throw together a hack job for Igor the Invested Fan, because Jane the Casually Curious will download the file as well.

And if the design comes over to the publisher and says "hey, we want 1.7 to go out after all" you need to do that all over again on the top of 6 times you've done it so far.

So, one person cannot do that in one working day? 6-8hrs?

I do not think that one shift is deal breaking cost for a company as Paizo.

[Steve Geddes]

Voss wrote:

Having neglected to do it before, they only need to do it once.

Doing it at the end of the playtest doesn’t really help, does it?

I daresay it’s a cost:benefit analysis. The playtest isn’t a finished product, it’s a tool for developing a finished product - a tool they’re very nearly done with.

It’d be like sharpening the blade on a hacksaw just before you discard it - it would achieve something, but it’s probably not worth the effort.

[Steve Geddes]

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

It would be, but laying out the rulebook costs time and money and takes editors away from your ongoing projects. Your best bet is a fan-made updated rulebook, which I believe is floating around somewhere.

Really?

by how much?

Instead of writting in separate file, just write it in rulebook file.

Save and put it on web page. Same as this files.

They are not printing anything

By much.

You still need to lay out the PDF file. All the changes in content mean that you need to realign the text, tables, boxes and art, adjust the index, adjust the bookmarks, do pagination, resolve any "great, now this art doesn't fit on the page" issues, do editing passes etc. etc. etc.

And you can't ignore all of the above and throw together a hack job for Igor the Invested Fan, because Jane the Casually Curious will download the file as well.

And if the design comes over to the publisher and says "hey, we want 1.7 to go out after all" you need to do that all over again on the top of 6 times you've done it so far.

So, one person cannot do that in one working day? 6-8hrs?

I do not think that one shift is deal breaking cost for a company as Paizo.

I don’t know what’s involved, but based on similar requests to update other, much smaller PDFs over the years, I think the short answer is no, that one person cannot do everything required in one day.

I suspect they could have setup their systems for ease of updating PDFs, but instead geared their processes more towards the production of print books. I think it’s considerably more involved than opening a couple of word documents and cutting and pasting.

[Gorbacz]

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

It would be, but laying out the rulebook costs time and money and takes editors away from your ongoing projects. Your best bet is a fan-made updated rulebook, which I believe is floating around somewhere.

Really?

by how much?

Instead of writting in separate file, just write it in rulebook file.

Save and put it on web page. Same as this files.

They are not printing anything

By much.

You still need to lay out the PDF file. All the changes in content mean that you need to realign the text, tables, boxes and art, adjust the index, adjust the bookmarks, do pagination, resolve any "great, now this art doesn't fit on the page" issues, do editing passes etc. etc. etc.

And you can't ignore all of the above and throw together a hack job for Igor the Invested Fan, because Jane the Casually Curious will download the file as well.

And if the design comes over to the publisher and says "hey, we want 1.7 to go out after all" you need to do that all over again on the top of 6 times you've done it so far.

So, one person cannot do that in one working day? 6-8hrs?

I do not think that one shift is deal breaking cost for a company as Paizo.

To begin with, it's never one person, because it involves at least three people with different skills: one person for layout/pagination/visual side of things and one person for proofreading/editing the text side of things and one person to validate, check and sign off the whole thing. Matter of fact, I'm not sure if layout/pagination and art/trade dress aren't two different people.

So at this point you've got 4 people involved in a company which, at the same time, is moving around a lot printed product which is on much tighter deadlines. You still think it's a one day of 6 hours for one person?

And I'm writing this having only a tangential idea about how the process works, having edited an academic volume or two and worked with the publisher who did the layout/linguistic proofreading side of things.

[PossibleCabbage]

I figured the best way to do this is with some sort of wiki/srd, but I don't think one emerged.

[Igor Horvat]

Gorbacz wrote:

To begin with, it's never one person, because it involves at least three people with different skills: one person for layout/pagination/visual side of things and one person for proofreading/editing the text side of things and one person to validate, check and sign off the whole thing. Matter of fact, I'm not sure if layout/pagination and art/trade dress aren't two different people.

So at this point you've got 4 people involved in a company which, at the same time, is moving around a lot printed product which is on much tighter deadlines. You still think it's a one day of 6 hours for one person?

And I'm writing this having only a tangential idea about how the process works, having edited an academic volume or two and worked with the...

But, core rulebook is proofread long ago, you just need to do for extra material, which they did.

Al it takes is copy/paste new text instead of old, and scroll through print preview to see page breaks and paragraphs and adjust them if needed.

And this version does not go to print commercially so it does not need to be perfect.

[Gorbacz]

Igor Horvat wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

To begin with, it's never one person, because it involves at least three people with different skills: one person for layout/pagination/visual side of things and one person for proofreading/editing the text side of things and one person to validate, check and sign off the whole thing. Matter of fact, I'm not sure if layout/pagination and art/trade dress aren't two different people.

So at this point you've got 4 people involved in a company which, at the same time, is moving around a lot printed product which is on much tighter deadlines. You still think it's a one day of 6 hours for one person?

And I'm writing this having only a tangential idea about how the process works, having edited an academic volume or two and worked with the...

But, core rulebook is proofread long ago, you just need to do for extra material, which they did.

Al it takes is copy/paste new text instead of old, and scroll through print preview to see page breaks and paragraphs and adjust them if needed.

And this version does not go to print commercially so it does not need to be perfect.

It "goes to print commercially". It's posted on the website. It has their logo on it. It has to meet all the standards they have for published material, because you're not the only person who's going to read it. The fact that the product is free or that it's an update does not mean you can just let go of whatever standards you have. every product you put out, from a 2-page errata to a 600-page sourcebook, is your business card.

If I present my client with a draft contract on my law firm's company paper with layout, spell checking and quality control done to the highest standard, I'm not going to send the sixth updated version of the contract in an unedited, unformatted Word file just so that it goes out faster. Because if that file doesn't go to Igor who wanted it ASAP and didn't mind the formatting/editing but instead goes to his boss Jane, whose first reaction is "Jesus, what kind of sloppy law firm are we working with?" my business is damaged.

I can't really explain it in more plain terms. Publishing isn't as easy and simple as throwing together a PDF is, internal quality standards are not something you throw into the wind just because it's not a "full" product. While compiling a "final" PDF of the core rulebook would have been nice, I can perfectly understand that would be too much work for too little gain for Paizo.

[Zwordsman]

I doubt it'd show up.

I do think it would be very neat, at the end of the playtest to get a "end of playtest" version all together, that folks can play with until 2E (and possibly mention nonstandard playtest data (without any gurantee of listening) up until it gets sent to print (with their own changes since then).
Kind of as a postarity sorta thing and for folks who enjoyed it.

but it isn't really cost feeisble at all.

Possibly outside of hiring part time data entry folks to do the basic work and then just have the editors go at it after. but that would still be quite costly in terms of workhours.

[The DM of]

Think about how many page references would be changed as a result of the insertion and deletion of material? It's not as simple as fans adding annotations.

It would be awesome to have an updated pdf for the next year though. I don't know if Paizo will devote time to it over the rule and content creation work streams on their plate, but now that the update phase is over, isn't it interesting to see how we want more? We've gone from asks on the rules to another kind of ask. Just funny to think about. I hope it's a good sign in the continued interest and demand for the product and a healthy rules core in 2019.

So far I believe we're using the most evolved form of D&D to date. Having started playing in 1981, my feel is PF2 has maintained the flavor and wonder of the first games while adding on the customizability and play options that make character development more interesting than ever.

Thanks!

[Vic Ferrari]

The DM of wrote:

Think about how many page references would be changed as a result of the insertion and deletion of material? It's not as simple as fans adding annotations.

It would be awesome to have an updated pdf for the next year though. I don't know if Paizo will devote time to it over the rule and content creation work streams on their plate, but now that the update phase is over, isn't it interesting to see how we want more? We've gone from asks on the rules to another kind of ask. Just funny to think about. I hope it's a good sign in the continued interest and demand for the product and a healthy rules core in 2019.

So far I believe we're using the most evolved form of D&D to date. Having started playing in 1981, my feel is PF2 has maintained the flavor and wonder of the first games while adding on the customizability and play options that make character development more interesting than ever.

Thanks!

I wish I held that belief; it's a bit too revolutionary for me (5th Ed feels closer to PF1 than the Playtest, to me), and there is a slightly sterile, flatness, it's also rather byzantine.

I am thankful for all the team's efforts, and continue to be interested in the developments and the final product (which I will buy, regardless of whether I ever DM/play it), but I think they started out and settled on a direction that isn't really my cup of tea; I wanted more evolutionary.

[Skeld]

Igor Horvat wrote:

So, one person cannot do that in one working day? 6-8hrs?

I do not think that one shift is deal breaking cost for a company as Paizo.

We have a saying about this where I work: "The less you know about something, the easier it seems."

-Skeld

[Zman0]

They have plans to release a new rulebook with all the errata and even more. I'm pretty sure its slated for August of 2019. ;)

[pauljathome]

The thing that people are missing (including, I believe, Paizo) is that an updated rule book that is NOT pretty and well formatted would be very useful.

I'm all but certain that the pretty pdf is NOT what the developers use to actually wordsmith the rules. They're probably using Word (or similar).

Give us THAT file (the ugly one the developers use). Possibly exported to pdf. Very clearly mark it as a playtest document.

[The Once and Future Kai]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I figured the best way to do this is with some sort of wiki/srd, but I don't think one emerged.

I've been using http://pf2playtest.opengamingnetwork.com/ but they've only incorporated the core playtest materials. Hopefully they'll start adding the Updates now.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hey there folks,

As has been shared by a few folks here, creating updated pdfs is not something that we can do, given the time constraints and work load in the department (which is still quite busy making products).

The update documents alone have been stressful, but worth it to get some additional ideas tested.

Finally, I have moderated a few post that got sarcastic and off topic real quick. Those involved should know better by now.

This thread is locked.