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.. Seems to be becoming a bit of a problem.
For example, at a certain party where the PCs weren't supposed to cast spells, a PC insisted on casting Detect Magic anyway. I suggested that someone in the crowds he was mingling in might notice and give him a quick dig in the ribs to remind him he wasn't supposed to do that.
You can immediately guess what the problem with that was. As the player said, "If he could do that, he'd have an AoO'.
Anyone else had similar problems? I think these need to be looked at carefully.
I'm unclear on what the problem is. Which one would have an AoO and why? One character is casting a spell, the other is a crowd member nudging him. So what?
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An attack of opportunity is explicitly a Strike taken with the intent to maim, kill or disrupt. A nudge is a warning to draw attention to things.
However, frankly if they're arguing that much detail, then they are the one that loses out.
Because they didn't use subtle/melodious spell, as per the updates this would, I believe, have a spell manifestation. Visible to all those around. This means the guy would get instantly noticed and wind up in hot water.
The caster takes an action (cast) on his turn. The bystander takes an action (nudge attack) on his turn. It's not an AoO, as it's not a reaction. It's just a normal action. It might be too late to warn the PC not to do that, though.
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This doesn't strike me as an AoO type interruption, it doesn't even feel like a combat trigger to me. This is a preparing-to-cast social encounter chit-chat ("hi friend, I see you reaching for you component pouch, it's not really for me to say, but that may not be your best move in this place - if you still want to go ahead I'll just move myself over here" *walking off to the bar*). Unless the GM rules that the spell was lost (in which case you should definitely be in combat mode), the player still appears to have the option to persist against the friendly advice (which will then probably trigger the switch to combat mode).
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I suspect the player quoted in the OP was saying something like 'by the time this guy could have noticed my casting a spell it'd be done - with no AoOs allowed for most the spell takes so little time/effort that you can't react to it.'
I don't know that that that's a rules problem though, and I may be misinterpreting the situation.
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First, if your character is told not to do something, they probably shouldn't openly do that. Secondly, if a GM does something to gently discourage you from doing something, you should take it as the GM trying to communicate something to you, not argue to him about it not working according to the rules.
Next time, talk to him Out-Of-Character.
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From a meta perspective, gaming is telling a story, an over-arching narrative and the game mechanics are just a tool to help you adjudicate the actions. If there is a standing rule that people attending an event are not to use magic, there is a presumption that either (1) all attendees are compliant or (2) there will be safeguards in the case of someone breaking the rules. Without knowing the details we cannot make a definitive decision, but perhaps there are guards present that have knowledge of magic and can identify casting. In which case, immediately upon breaking said rule, the perpetrator will be arrested (or whatever) and at least removed from the event if not jailed depending on the nature of the event and the attendees. You don’t even need to use game mechanics to resolve the issue. It can be done cinematically with overwhelming numbers vs the caster. Sometimes players insist on doing something that seriously jeopardizes the narrative. Sometimes, a GM you allow it and alter the story while other times, they have to simply be punished for breaking the rules.
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Combat rules only apply during combat.
This was made even more explicit in PF2.
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Combat rules only apply during combat.
This was made even more explicit in PF2.
That logic doesn't work.
The guy in the OP's audience who did the elbow nudge (out of combat) could have been a monk doing an unarmed elbow strike, or could have been somebody delivering a touch attack with a gentle elbow nudge (or, alternatively, a gentle finger poke or a light caress).
How is one kind of unwanted contact (elbow nudge) different from another kind (gentle poke or caress)?
What is it about "Hey, we're in combat now" that turns one kind of elbow nudge (free to do whenever you want even during the casting of a spell) into another kind of elbow nudge (nope, you can't do it at all, you have to wait your turn, because combat).
In a RPG where "RP" stands for "Role Playing" played by people who like their stories to make sense, having some kind of mechanically gamist logic that certain laws of physics apply ONLY during combat and entirely different laws of physics apply out of combat is just not going to be well received by these people.
Each to their own, some people like that kind of thing. Others don't. Maybe this might turn out to be the kind of game that only works for one kind of player, not both.
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The OP example reminds me of a scene in PF1 where a NPC baited my character who jumped at him, which was totally in character but very risky and likely something the GM had not foreseen.
One of my fellows PCs said she used an AoO (that was PF1) to trip my character before he could catch the offender. The GM let it fly because it was quite the cinematic trope and it let us all get out of there mostly unscathed.
It is good to be able to fall back on the rules even in such a case, if only to check that we are not operating under pure GM fiat. Which tends to rub players the wrong way.
If I was the GM in the case I described, when the players state what their characters are doing (or rather want to do), I would put it back in rules' terms : have the fellows PCs roll Sense Motive to get that my PC is about to do something stupid, then ready an action to stop him when he starts his foolish action
I would just call it an init roll and make it into combat rounds. Really though I feel like the player shouldn't be able to react in time to interupt, but since surprise round is not a thing (right?) One could just do initiative. or you could just let them role play it out. like you nudge him do you stop or finish the spell?
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That logic doesn't work.The guy in the OP's audience who did the elbow nudge (out of combat) could have been a monk doing an unarmed elbow strike, or could have been somebody delivering a touch attack with a gentle elbow nudge (or, alternatively, a gentle finger poke or a light caress).
How is one kind of unwanted contact (elbow nudge) different from another kind (gentle poke or caress)?
What is it about "Hey, we're in combat now" that turns one kind of elbow nudge (free to do whenever you want even during the casting of a spell) into another kind of elbow nudge (nope, you can't do it at all, you have to wait your turn, because combat).
In a RPG where "RP" stands for "Role Playing" played by people who like their stories to make sense, having some kind of mechanically gamist logic that certain laws of physics apply ONLY during combat and entirely different laws of physics apply out of combat is just not going to be well received by these people.
Each to their own, some people like that kind of thing. Others don't. Maybe this might turn out to be the kind of game that only works for one kind of player, not both.
We differate the two to ALLOW roleplaying to exist. To "Strike" is not just hitting someone, it is meant to represent any way of KILLING other person. In any situation, a character can slap a character. Because we know this is not a combat thing, we do not have to go insane and start counting out non-lethal unarmed attack penalties to hit the AC for a narrative moment.
We do not think walking in the park as "move actions". We do not count rounds when characters are talking to each other, remember, you are only allowed to speak 6 seconds at time before the other person has its own turn to speak!
A combat scenario is a combat scenario and GM ought not to make it too hard to distinguish when you ought to just roll init and have a surprise round and when not to. It is important that the players can assume it is not combat and if it turns to combat, the GM will signal it somehow. Usually it is just a skill roll to notice ill intent/hidden weapon/crossbows in the balconies and then get down to the surprise round. But an actor does not need to roll fist fighting attack rolls to see if they successfully slapped the other actor on the face with a glove.
For example, at a certain party where the PCs weren't supposed to cast spells, a PC insisted on casting Detect Magic anyway. I suggested that someone in the crowds he was mingling in might notice and give him a quick dig in the ribs to remind him he wasn't supposed to do that.
You can immediately guess what the problem with that was. As the player said, "If he could do that, he'd have an AoO'.
I don't think these rules go against common sense.
PC1 is trying to cast a spell, something that takes a few seconds.
PC2 is trying to stop PC1 casting the spell before anyone notices PC1 is trying to cast a spell.
In order for this to happen, PC2 has to somehow know that PC1 is casting a spell before anyone knows PC1 is casting a spell.
This is only possible if (a) PC2 has abilities that make him more observant than everyone else and able to react before the spell is complete or anyone else notices what they're doing, or (b) the GM is allowing it because the scenario is easier to run if PC1 doesn't cast a spell.
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No matter how “good” you are, there are perception (or maybe sense motive) checks and initiative. The system already accounts for things like recognition of danger, response time, etc. It is possible for the person who intends to cast a spell to tip off someone else who just might have quicker reactions and elbow nudge them to disrupt the spell. Or before you get to freely punch me in the face, I notice your body movements and move to block the attack. Generally speaking combat starts the moment anyone intends to initiate combat not after they complete the initiating action. It’s one of the reasons why you cannot declare a readied action outside of combat. The moment you announce your readied action, combat has already started and whatever your action might be, it is possible for you to unintentionally do something that could be interpreted by someone else as an aggressive action. It could be taking a certain stance or how you hold your arms or what you do with your hands. Law enforcement, military, professional boxers/martial artists, all people similar to fantasy adventurers are trained or experienced with observing these types of actions and reacting appropriately.
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The difference is the mechanical effect.
Talking is free. Speaking a command word to activate a magic item isn't, because that would be too powerful.
Injuring someone with an elbow is an attack. Nudging someone with an elbow is a non-action because it doesn't matter; you could equally have whispered in their ear or something like that.
Making these things free allows for greater role-playing and character expression, at the price of a certain amount of logical consistency.
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No matter how “good” you are, there are perception (or maybe sense motive) checks and initiative. The system already accounts for things like recognition of danger, response time, etc. It is possible for the person who intends to cast a spell to tip off someone else who just might have quicker reactions and elbow nudge them to disrupt the spell. Or before you get to freely punch me in the face, I notice your body movements and move to block the attack. Generally speaking combat starts the moment anyone intends to initiate combat not after they complete the initiating action. It’s one of the reasons why you cannot declare a readied action outside of combat. The moment you announce your readied action, combat has already started and whatever your action might be, it is possible for you to unintentionally do something that could be interpreted by someone else as an aggressive action. It could be taking a certain stance or how you hold your arms or what you do with your hands. Law enforcement, military, professional boxers/martial artists, all people similar to fantasy adventurers are trained or experienced with observing these types of actions and reacting appropriately.Yeah, so where is the line between, this person is attempting to assault me - initiative, and this person is just attempting to gently touch my face?
The GM gets to decide. If the GM wants it to be a fight then he would have them roll initiative. If it's more of a roleplay heavy encounter then he would just not roll initiative. Although the player can decide at any time if he just wants to kill this random person, in that case you would roll initiative immediately.
First, if your character is told not to do something, they probably shouldn't openly do that.
It's like you have never dealt with PCs before. ;) Players forget what they were told, or they're rebellious, or they're acting out of habit, or they don't take the warning seriously, or...
If you tell them not to do something, the odds are pretty good someone will do it.
As for this situation itself, I'd allow it because an attempt to remind someone of something is not the same as an attempt to injure and actively disrupt the spell. Had they said "I try to stop the spell by hitting them", THAT would require an AoO. But what was being done here was more like a form of communication than an attack, and at some point the rules have to give way to player agency.
(As for "the rules don't apply because it's not combat"... yeah, a lot of rules in PF2 only apply sometimes. It's a major weakness of the system.)
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.. Seems to be becoming a bit of a problem.
For example, at a certain party where the PCs weren't supposed to cast spells, a PC insisted on casting Detect Magic anyway. I suggested that someone in the crowds he was mingling in might notice and give him a quick dig in the ribs to remind him he wasn't supposed to do that.
You can immediately guess what the problem with that was. As the player said, "If he could do that, he'd have an AoO'.
Anyone else had similar problems? I think these need to be looked at carefully.
The problem is not a lack of AoO, it's a contentious player. Antagonistic RAW-happy players will cause problems in PF1 or PF2. In PF1, everyone gets to make AoO, which sounds good and all, but a motivated player could still make arguments against this very scenario in the PF1e Ruleset (AoOs and all):
(1) You (normally) can't make AoO unarmed. Therefore, the person in the crowd can't make an AoO to give him a quick "dig in the ribs."
(2) You can't make AoO outside of combat. Therefore, you need to roll initiative, and (since the Wizard always goes first) the person in the crowd doesn't have Combat Reflexes, and therefore can't make the AoO because he's still flat-footed while the Wizard is casting.
(3) The person in the crowd cannot give a nudge in the ribs, because making an attack that deals no damage is not defined in the rules [going off of memory on this one, but I suspect that's true].
(4) If the person in the crowd somehow has Improved Unarmed Strike and Combat Reflexes AND if we houserule that the person in the crowd can make an AoO that doesn't deal damage, there was not enough damage dealt to interrupt the spell and it still goes off.
(5) [if all else fails] He was going to cast defensively, so there is no AoO. You're not the boss of him, and your NPC can't nudge him.
As a GM, I'd suggest telling him that Rule 0 lets the NPC nudge him in the ribs, and that it's not an attack. There's no mechanical effect, and it would not interrupt the spell, but if he continues casting he'll deal with the RP consequences.
In PF2, you have the additional factor that only fighters and certain very particular monsters can take AoOs -- but since the effect of the nudge is equivalent to the NPC simply saying "Don't do that!" (which nobody would dispute that the NPC could do), that distinction really shouldn't matter too much.
The player might have cause to object if that nudge actually had a chance to distrupt his spellcasting or to prematurely alert others as to what he was doing, but neither of those cases seem to apply here.
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Isn't the exact reason to separate "encounter mode" from "exploration mode" that we don't need to use a round by round structure to figure out what's going on when people are, say, attending a party?
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Isn't the exact reason to separate "encounter mode" from "exploration mode" that we don't need to use a round by round structure to figure out what's going on when people are, say, attending a party?Yay; this is about when one becomes the other.
I mean, come on, the literal/pedantry game, only goes so far.
Shouldn't the boundary be defined when someone involved actually escalates to violence? Nudging someone to "cut it out" or a verbal interaction are not going to trigger encounter mode, so if that's all the NPC does then it's fine. If a PC wants to respond to having their breach of etiquette called out by resorting to physical violence, they can (though they likely will not be invited to many parties going forward).
One thing to remember as well: Detect Magic has a 10 minute cast time.
In my head the visual magical effects build up over time, mechanically its not specified, but that's how I'd play it. That being said, you have more than enough time to poke/prod him before it's finished being cast.
One thing to remember as well: Detect Magic has a 10 minute cast time.
It does?
Not in the core playtest rulebook.
Did they change that in an update and I missed it?
One thing to remember as well: Detect Magic has a 10 minute cast time.It does?
Not in the core playtest rulebook.
Did they change that in an update and I missed it?
Identify magic got patched to only be ten minutes, but it's not a spell.
Detect magic, as magic sonar, is still a cantrip. Ping Ping.
I'm so confused. My group has been playing it as 10 minute cast time. I was certain I saw it in the rulebook but I searched through it and its definitely 2 actions. Dang.