I like most changes but "Unburdened" Dwarves need work


Ancestries & Backgrounds


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Unburdened Heritage seems way too weak at -5 penalty. An elf in heavy armor moves faster and than unburdened dwarf (and leaves all other dwarves in the dust). This just does not seem right.

I am not sure what the right answer is but the heritage currently seems weak. Maybe ignore 5 feet of armor penalty (as now) and also gain 5 feet of speed? This would make it good for a wider array of builds and make sure the elf in plate isn't faster than the unburdened dwarf?


I'm inclined to agree it's too weak. Maybe reduce ACP and/or just eliminate speed penalty for armor all together would be good.


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a reduced ACP by 1 would be nice.

or a follow up feat at 9 to reduce it even further by 5 speed more? so that you can be in heavy and full speed.

speaking of dwarves, I find that Ancient's blood is still terrible. It should be (min 1) imo instead of (min 0) so that it doesn't completly shaft you for levels 1-3, but still stays a penalty even at higher levels.

for better of for worse, usually +saves vs spells is something you would require more at later levels rather than earlier levels, while that (min 0) will hurt you way more at early levels rather than later levels.

it's the definition of "late blooming power" that I though pf2 wanted to avoid.


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I think the new Ancestries are a step in the right direction but I really dont like a lot of the new ones. Goblin is just so bland to me. Inflammable is the best out of them mechanically, and none of them fit the Goblin character I am playing at the moment.


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Callin13 wrote:
I think the new Ancestries are a step in the right direction but I really dont like a lot of the new ones. Goblin is just so bland to me. Inflammable is the best out of them mechanically, and none of them fit the Goblin character I am playing at the moment.

Maybe but that Goblin song is sweet.


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Data Lore wrote:
Callin13 wrote:
I think the new Ancestries are a step in the right direction but I really dont like a lot of the new ones. Goblin is just so bland to me. Inflammable is the best out of them mechanically, and none of them fit the Goblin character I am playing at the moment.
Maybe but that Goblin song is sweet.

add the inexplicable Cha bonus that they get, and I think we will be swarming with goblin bards... not sure how I feel about that...

although, on the other hand, frightened 1 is -1 conditional to everything and is a Cha based check, but only affects 1 target... so I'm not sure it will be wildly used.


Number of targets can increase to 8.


Data Lore wrote:
Number of targets can increase to 8.

yes, i was talking about how Intimidation is -1 conditional to everything (off a Cha based skill check) vs Song being -1 conditional to only perc/will

the counterargument is that Song affects multiple creatures while Int only 1


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Unburdened at the very least needs a higher level ancestry feat to improve it (or it auto-improves at a certain level). I'm fine with "a dwarf in full plate is as fast as a naked dwarf" not being a thing possible at first level as it was in PF1, but it should be eventually possible regardless of class.


shroudb wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
Number of targets can increase to 8.

yes, i was talking about how Intimidation is -1 conditional to everything (off a Cha based skill check) vs Song being -1 conditional to only perc/will

the counterargument is that Song affects multiple creatures while Int only 1

The Will penalty affects Will DC, which is what you measure Intimidate against.

Perception DCs are what you run Deception for Feinting.

Fits the sneaky, unfair goblin fighting style. Regardless, it's a bit of a roundabout way.


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Unburdened dwarves got the short end of the stick here. Every other race gets a bonus that they didn't have before from these new heritages. Unburdened dwarves get to spend their 'free' heritage to get back what was taken away in the same update. Were dwarves too overpowered before that all other races needed a boost to get them back in line?


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Unburdened at the very least needs a higher level ancestry feat to improve it (or it auto-improves at a certain level). I'm fine with "a dwarf in full plate is as fast as a naked dwarf" not being a thing possible at first level as it was in PF1, but it should be eventually possible regardless of class.

They did kill half-elven speed double dipping, so the Dwarven speed 15 in plate doesn't compare as badly with the theoretical maximum. It's still not great though.


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I like what Kai suggested in another thread. Give them total reduction in speed penalty for armor AND they ignore encumbrance penalties..

Super cool. Might even be useful for Alchemists who have to lug around heavy kits and the like.


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Data Lore wrote:
Super cool. Might even be useful for Alchemists who have to lug around heavy kits and the like.

I would definitely like to see more synergy between "the Dwarf Ancestry" and "the Alchemist class" since Dwarf Alchemists strikes me as something that should probably be somewhat more common than the rest of the non-traditional classes for Dwarves.


Elf Step is also f*cking awful. It should increase the number of difficult terrain square you can ignore to 2 in order to be useful.

Silver Crusade

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I don't know, moving 10ft and not provoking Reactions seems useful to me.


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Rysky wrote:
I don't know, moving 10ft and not provoking Reactions seems useful to me.

Not to mention that the way it's worded, it stacks amazing with actual step increases.

Like a monk in Tiger stance being able to step 20 feet with an action

I can already see a rogue/monk flurrying for 2 attack, twist the knife for bleed, and then skirmishing strike for a 3rd attack and then stepping 20 feet away.

Or maybe, skirmish in and attack, Flurry, attack and skirmish out. For 4 attacks and 2x20feet, no provoking movements.


shroudb wrote:
Data Lore wrote:
Callin13 wrote:
I think the new Ancestries are a step in the right direction but I really dont like a lot of the new ones. Goblin is just so bland to me. Inflammable is the best out of them mechanically, and none of them fit the Goblin character I am playing at the moment.
Maybe but that Goblin song is sweet.

add the inexplicable Cha bonus that they get, and I think we will be swarming with goblin bards... not sure how I feel about that...

although, on the other hand, frightened 1 is -1 conditional to everything and is a Cha based check, but only affects 1 target... so I'm not sure it will be wildly used.

Goblin Bards are awesome and flavorful! Every Goblin party should have at least one. There's even one in the bestiary.


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It's not really an Unburdened Dwarf, it's a Somewhat Less Burdened Dwarf.


Before 1.4, dwarf was clearly the best race, they got Unburdened and Darkvision with the only tradeoff being 5 ft. of speed. In heavy armor, dwarves were the fastest race.

Not sure how the current dwarf is balanced overall, but the old one was clearly overpowered.
---
Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Table 10-2 should be destroyed

Liberty's Edge

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When it comes down to it, dwarves either need the same 25' base speed as almost everyone else or they need to get Unburdened for free. When there were lots of 20' races, it made a degree more sense for Unburdened to not be free, but since everyone else got faster it's become too much of a penalty.


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I feel like Unburdened being a heritage is a mistake, since it means that a heavy armored Dwarf is either unplayably slow or needs to take that heritage. Which means that like Pahmet Dwarf Paladins need to choose between "the heritage that makes sense for them" and "the heritage which makes their class playable." Any heritage that means "x class will always take this" or "x class will never take this" is a mistake IMO, because any ancestry in any place should generate examples of every class.

Make it an ancestry feat, sure, but not a heritage one.


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I felt half elf was the best, with the only loss being no darkvision, then elf and goblin after that. Dwarf was alright, but with wisdom as their aggressive stat they're left choosing either a wisdom caster or neglecting their dexterity. Dwarf speed bonus while armored left them equal to an elf in speed if they're both in heavier armor, and the elf and half elf have greater ability to increase that speed.

I'm also a bit disappointed with the lack of crafting related dwarf abilities.


swordchucks wrote:
When it comes down to it, dwarves either need the same 25' base speed as almost everyone else or they need to get Unburdened for free. When there were lots of 20' races, it made a degree more sense for Unburdened to not be free, but since everyone else got faster it's become too much of a penalty.

So... Your "either 25' speed or Unburdened" framing seems to fall apart by your own admission a 3rd alternative with 20' speed not exclusive to Dwarves was entirely viable. Why the focus on false dichotomy, simply to conform to a change you don't actually like?

PossibleCabbage wrote:
...Pahmet Dwarf Paladins need to choose between "the heritage that makes sense for them" and "the heritage which makes their class playable."

Isn't Heavy Armor in Hot climates a penalizing sort of thing? AFAIK Pahmet are Monk-affiliated, not Paladin, although if there is specific setting basis for Pahmet Paladins in Heavy Armor, I'd be glad if you shared. ...Just not sure if there is much setting substantiation for your expectations here.


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Quandary wrote:
swordchucks wrote:
When it comes down to it, dwarves either need the same 25' base speed as almost everyone else or they need to get Unburdened for free. When there were lots of 20' races, it made a degree more sense for Unburdened to not be free, but since everyone else got faster it's become too much of a penalty.
So... Your "either 25' speed or Unburdened" framing seems to fall apart by your own admission a 3rd alternative with 20' speed not exclusive to Dwarves was entirely viable. Why the focus on false dichotomy, simply to conform to a change you don't actually like?

Probably because Dwarves are now the only race that can ever have a 20' speed with armour penalties.

I personally liked how Goblins were fast and scurrying everywhere, a small race with 25' movement, but had some reservations about Halflings - now that Gnomes got full speed too, I am just looking at Dwarf as being feat taxed to be as slow as everyone else, or fall behind everyone else. It's no longer a feature, because it never makes them better than someone else - just either worse or equal.

Liberty's Edge

I wouldn't call it a false dichotomy. You could, theoretically make any change to any number of races and have it be an option. However, assuming the other races are in a good place and that moving their speed isn't an option, you have to look at solutions that work within that context.

I get why the other races got faster. A gnome in heavy armor with a 10' movement is horrible to try to play. It also doesn't necessarily make sense for small = slow since most small creatures in the real world are pretty quick. Giving every race a way to mitigate the speed reduction just turns it into a tax for characters that want to use heavy armor, which isn't a great thing. Fleet is almost a tax, as it is, and more of those would suck.

So, assuming everyone else stays at a 25' (or greater) movement, what fixes would make the dwarf feel right again? That is the basis I started at with my assertion that dwarves either need a base 25' like everyone else or free Unburdened.


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swordchucks wrote:

I wouldn't call it a false dichotomy. You could, theoretically make any change to any number of races and have it be an option. However, assuming the other races are in a good place and that moving their speed isn't an option, you have to look at solutions that work within that context.

I get why the other races got faster. A gnome in heavy armor with a 10' movement is horrible to try to play. It also doesn't necessarily make sense for small = slow since most small creatures in the real world are pretty quick. Giving every race a way to mitigate the speed reduction just turns it into a tax for characters that want to use heavy armor, which isn't a great thing. Fleet is almost a tax, as it is, and more of those would suck.

So, assuming everyone else stays at a 25' (or greater) movement, what fixes would make the dwarf feel right again? That is the basis I started at with my assertion that dwarves either need a base 25' like everyone else or free Unburdened.

I like the fact that unburdened is an "option" and not something that passively all dwarves get.

It always felt bad "paying" for something your character may not use ever.

But

I feel it should just be a generic ancestry feat, not a heritage.

Being a heritage just brings the problem to the exact opposite spectrum.

Now, if you want heavy armor as a dwarf, your options are severely limited compared to literally every other race.

Basically, dwarves are now, somehow, the worst heavy armor wearers.

Which, thematically, is terrible.


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I feel like you could fix this by making unburdened a normal ancestry feat not a heritage. Biggest problem is not how making heavy armor work for you costs something, but how making heavy armor work for you is mutually exclusive with other choices you make at 1st level.


If they're speed is kept low, then they'd need something that was a stand in for moving. That's a tough thing to match. Greater ranged combat mobility, mounted combat options, or better access to at will cover would do it, but they would be challenging to balance. Maybe the ability to stride and take cover behind a raised shield as an action?


swordchucks wrote:
However, assuming the other races are in a good place and that moving their speed isn't an option, you have to look at solutions that work within that context.

I don't assume that...

I think the Elf speed discrepancy is more problematic, because it amplifies disparity in PCs REGARDLESS of wearing Heavy Armor or not.
Unless Paizo is trying to go Dark Sun, there's no clear need for Elves to have high speed, never mind baked in without Feat cost.
(a situationally EFFECTIVE higher speed via Difficult Terrain compensation is more balanced & thematically evocative of "Elven nimbleness" IMHO)

Quote:
I get why the other races got faster. A gnome in heavy armor with a 10' movement is horrible to try to play.

I don't recall many complaints in P1E or 3.x about Gnome or Dwarf speed, despite the discrepancy in base speed actually being relatively larger vs Humans (20:30 vs 20:25). Of course, nobody had 10' movement speed in P1E or 3.x, because Heavy Armor wasn't slower than Medium Armor, and the speed reduction was scaled to base speed: -10 for 30' base speed/ -5 for 20' base speed. The playtest rules now treat Heavy Armor as worse than Medium Armor for this speed reduction AND doesn't offer distinct (smaller) reduction for slower base speed... In a way, a double penalty when both apply.

If that change is forcing A) Small races to lose Slow Speed B) Humans to take Fleet C) Unburdened to be non-optional for Heavy Armor Dwarves, I don't think it's a change that is contributing to over-all game... And rather than band-aids, a better solution IMHO would be directly addressing the underlying change in Armor speed reduction mechanics. Constraining "lobbying" to Dwarves and Unburdened also neglects how the system works for any other Slow races without Unburdened.

Returning to base-speed scaled Armor speed reduction is attractive, but shift to 25' norm (and 5' minimum unit) is difficult to reconcile with distinct Medium/Heavy speed reductions. I honestly think it is fine for normal 25' base speed to suffer only a -5' speed penalty in both Medium & Heavy Armor (which results in same 20' speed in both as 3.x/P1E), although base 30' speed norm with distinct -5'/-10' penalty (Medium/Heavy) is plausibly viable... Either way, I think AT THE VERY LEAST Slow/20' base speed should suffer only a -5' penalty in BOTH Medium and Heavy.*

Relatedly, I am open to considering possibility that Encumbrance/Load speed reductions could STACK with Armor reductions*, which they currently don't (albeit if they stacked, Encumbrance probably NEEDS to have 2 or more degrees, instead of jumping directly to -10 speed). Heavy Armor wearers wanting good enough STR to not worry about Encumbrance isn't shocking IMHO (and consistent with Armor Max Dex / Point-Buy), and may actually address balance/thematic complaint re: too many casters wanting to wear Heavy Armor (although that is equally product of playtest's abandonment of ASF%, and 4x level-up stat-boost constrains long-term relevance of Encumbrance limitation).

* Medium & Heavy Armor having same speed reduction for Slow/20'move characters also means Unburdened doesn't offer disproportionate benefit to Heavy Armor wearers. Also negating Encumbrance speed reduction potentially allows greater benefit for Heavy Armor if that was determinant in Encumbrance, but the speed reduction negation could be expressed as ignoring -5 of reduction (allowing Heavy Encumbrance to still have some effect). ...?

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Maybe the dwarf's first stride action each turn could be double the distance.


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Unburdened should really be an Ancestry Feat and not a Heritage. They should also have an upgrade to increase it to ignore 10 feet of penalties, and possibly some of the other armor penalties.

As it is right now Dwarves are slow. You can take an elf and kit it out with speed increases. Doing this and putting the elf in Heavy Armor would still make the Elf faster than a Dwarf.

This is not a good thing.

I'd do the following.

1) Remove the 'Unburdened' Heritage.

2) Add an Ancestry Feat "Slow and Steady" which lets you ignore 5 feet worth of movement penalties from your Armor or the Encumbered condition.

3) Add an Ancestry Feat "Unburdened" that requires "Slow and Steady" and lets you completely ignore movement penalties from Armor and the Encumbered condition.

With this a Dwarf will still be unable to carry more Bulk than 10 + Strength Modifier, but until they get to that point they will be completely unaffected.


For starters :

Elf speed increase needs to only apply when in light or no armor.

Unburdened needs to become ancestry feat

Unburdened+ at 9 for full speed regardless of armor

Those 3 I believe are enough to make it closer to fair.


Unburdened dwarves are nice and flavorful as soon as dwarves have the same base speed as all the other non-elf races.

Dark Archive

Quandary wrote:
swordchucks wrote:
However, assuming the other races are in a good place and that moving their speed isn't an option, you have to look at solutions that work within that context.

I don't assume that...

I think the Elf speed discrepancy is more problematic, because it amplifies disparity in PCs REGARDLESS of wearing Heavy Armor or not.
Unless Paizo is trying to go Dark Sun, there's no clear need for Elves to have high speed, never mind baked in without Feat cost.
(a situationally EFFECTIVE higher speed via Difficult Terrain compensation is more balanced & thematically evocative of "Elven nimbleness" IMHO)

Tolkien elves, most notably Legolas and whom D&D elves are based, were explicitly faster than other races so much so that it left the fellowship in awe, so I do think elves should be faster.

On topic, I also have a problem with dwarves being the slowest in heavy armor. I definitely think unburdened should be changed into an ancestry feat for them, but I guess the guys working on the game made it a heritage because they didn’t want other races getting unburdened with an ancestry feat.


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shroudb wrote:

For starters :

Elf speed increase needs to only apply when in light or no armor.

Unburdened needs to become ancestry feat

Unburdened+ at 9 for full speed regardless of armor

Those 3 I believe are enough to make it closer to fair.

I agree that the elf speed should be 25, with a conditional bonus that when in light or no armor, and not encumbered, they get a +5 conditional bonus.

This actually further goes to explain the iconic Elvish Chainmail, which is so light, despite being based on chainmail, a medium armor, it behaves like a light armor. Elves had a reason to develop light armor to make best use of their natural speed.

This seems relatively balanced. Elves get a conditional speed boost, applied when light or below armor/encumbrance. Allow the elves to continue to have the option to buy a speed boost that isn't conditional, but make it cost them a higher level ancestry feat. Dwarves can get a better reduction in penalty with a higher level feat too.

Dwarves take a penalty, but get a conditional speed boost (penalty reduction) when encumbered by armor or load.

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