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I was building a L10 druid and I realized that Animal Form is pretty much as good as you need, at least up until level 10.
Aerial Form is very useful (for obvious reasons) but Dinosaur Form and Elemental Form are just about identical to Heightened Animal Form in their combat abilities (well, except for what is presumably a bug for the Air Elemental damage. D4 seems a bit low :-)).
Dragon Form, of course, kind of rocks :-). Of course, you get it at level 11 as a spell and have to wait until level 14 to get it from class abilities (which also seems wrong).
I could be missing something but I experienced very little pain (at level 10) with my wild shaping/Animal companion druid. Animal form and Aerial forms were really all I needed.
I'd like to see it in campaign play, of course, but I was only briefly tempted to take Form Control. The fact that it only works on level -1 spells is a strong disincentive to taking this. Yes, 1 hour wild shape is nice for scouting but if you get into a fight you're going to be in a LOT of trouble.
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I agree, and in some respects the dinosaur forms seemed very single note in play. I think the incentive for taking more of them is building up to 4+ feats to get the extra shifts per day.
Overall the wild order druid progression left a bad taste in my mouth. I disliked nearly everything about it, except the auto-heightened spells.
Even the auto-heighten is problematic at times. Animal Shape gets auto-heightened to 4th level. If you use your ability to change form while in a human-sized hallway, you lose your cast because the hallway is too small for a large creature. Means you can't reliably use your core feature unless you are outside in the open air.
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Wildshape is terrible in this edition.
It's not that bad.
At their respective spell levels, most of the polymorph spells will grant you:
- better AC than you normally have and on par with medium armor + max DEX
- no more speed reduction or ACP
- increased speed on top of that
- extra hit points (worth a full class level)
- additional senses (low-light vision, scent...)
- decent skill bonuses
- better attack roll than you normally have
- better damage bonus than you normally have
- a large selection of damage types and utility (climb, swim...)
There are 4 major issues for me:
- You don't get to transform into anything worthwhile before level 4 so you're just a very subpar martial character until then - very big issue because fun is dead for 3 consecutive levels.
- You need the Druid's Vestments when you get to very high level of play because your spells no longer keep up with AC and attack roll - not a big fan of mandatory magic items.
- With minutes duration, no more turning into an animal to cross that river, climb that mountain, scout ahead or move your party faster by carrying them on your back.
- There is no Natural Spell feat. This one is the real dealbreaker.
Seriously, with wildshape being so limited in duration and number of uses per day, having to go out of your animal form to cast a Heal spell so you're not knocked out of combat really diminishes the class' potential. Why is this not an option?
I can understand not wanting Wild Speech. Since wildshape is no longer something you can have always on but has its role limited to combat, it's not truly needed.
But Natural Spell?
Come on Paizo, this is what makes Wildshaping so bad at the moment!
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Considering that you can use a scimitar the only thing wild claws does is trade a minor saving on gear for action economy. You would be better off drawing scimitar moving up and attacking then casting wild claws moving up and not getting an attack that round.
Unfortunately when we look at the shifter, the feral hunter and the druid from PF1 (specifically the Shaman types with the Transfomration class feature), their idea about shapeshifters is to grow claws at first then actually shapeshift at 4th level. I do not agree with this version and would prefer a version that shapeshifted at level 1.
I think they could rewrite Animal Form to include a level 1 and 2 version and by keeping the spell at level 3 other classes could not access that option. In fact doing this would solve the level 4 animal form issue with the early access leading to a very strong form for that level alone.
Pest Form should also be renamed to Utility Shape, have a feat that lets you spend spell points on it (and be the replacement for Wild Claws) that offers the following options:
Tiny form
Tiny flying form
Sleeping form (something noncombat that lasts 8 hours but lets you be adapted to the environment)
Beast of Burden form (carrying heavy loads, basically I don't ride a horse i am the horse)
Tracker form (basically the ability to Search and do another activity at the same time)
A climbing form
A swimming form
A large flying form for transport (higher level option)
In each case this ability should last for an appropriate length of time (8 hours for the mount/sleeping/burden forms, 1 hour for the scouting forms) and each would have very low AC and no attack options, Athletics should be good too.
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Wildshape is terrible in this edition.It's not that bad.
At their respective spell levels, most of the polymorph spells will grant you:
- better AC than you normally have and on par with medium armor + max DEX
Not if you have magical armour - which every on does - or a shield.
The AC sucks.
- no more speed reduction or ACP
- increased speed on top of that
Most medium level druids will have longstrider up and already be fast enough. Sorry doesn't stack.
- extra hit points (worth a full class level)
They are just temporary and you can't heal them but yes the hitpoints are nice.
- additional senses (low-light vision, scent...)
Quite important
- decent skill bonuses
No. You basically lose the ability to use most skills
- better attack roll than you normally have
- better damage bonus than you normally have
Perhaps. If you have a sweet magic weapon you can be behind
- a large selection of damage types and utility (climb, swim...)
Yep, but if you want the good movement like fly your combat ability will go way down.
There are 4 major issues for me:- You don't get to transform into anything worthwhile before level 4 so you're just a very subpar martial character until then - very big issue because fun is dead for 3 consecutive levels.
- You need the Druid's Vestments when you get to very high level of play because your spells no longer keep up with AC and attack roll - not a big fan of mandatory magic items.
- With minutes duration, no more turning into an animal to cross that river, climb that mountain, scout ahead or move your party faster by carrying them on your back.
- There is no Natural Spell feat. This one is the real dealbreaker.
Seriously, with wildshape being so limited in duration and number of uses per day, having to go out of your animal form to cast a Heal spell so you're not knocked out of combat really diminishes the class' potential. Why is this not an option?
I can understand not wanting Wild Speech. Since wildshape is no longer something you can have always on but has its role limited to combat, it's not truly needed.
But Natural Spell?
Come on Paizo, this is what makes Wildshaping so bad at the moment!
Fair criticisms. But also.
Druid Vestments suck as a magic item it should allow you to take the best of both not limit you.
Requiring a player not to speak because they are in animal form is a game play killer.
1 minute duration is awful. It forces you to cast the transformation every combat and sucks up your actions.
The game has to allow for some combinations to work or there is no point thinking or building your character. It is half the fun of the game. Don't neuter everything. Magic Fang, Hand wraps, Longstrider, Magic Armour/Weapons - its too much.
Not if you have magical armour - which every on does - or a shield.
The AC sucks.
The issue is that Druids, inherently, will not have such a high DEX modifier and cannot get better armour than Hide.
This is because Paizo is once again enforcing the stupid "no metal armour" thing on Druids.
I agree that your statement is true once you pick up heavy armour proficiency and get your hands on some darkwood plate.
That doesn't happen before level 11 at the very earliest and, in the meantime, polymorph spells are a slight improvement over your regular AC.
Most medium level druids will have longstrider up and already be fast enough. Sorry doesn't stack.
So, using a polymorph spell saves you from having to cast Longstrider beforehand. Seems like a boon to me since you're saving on one precious spell slot?
No. You basically lose the ability to use most skills
You're right, I should have been clearer with that statement.
I meant that for the skills that polymorph spells boost (usually Acrobatics or Athletics), the bonus from the spell is equal to or better than what you would normally have when not wildshaped.
Yep, but if you want the good movement like fly your combat ability will go way down.
See, that doesn't bother me too much for one reason: assuming a flying shape with one polymorph spell basically equals to saving on the need to cast Fly to begin with.
It makes sense to me that your offensive shape would then be slightly toned down but I understand why you would feel differently.As for your additional criticisms...yes that too.
Hopefully some of these things are better at release?
I mean, these forums have made it very clear what areas need improvements.
Either we will have some of them and, if not, then we will have a different kind of answer which is: "We're not changing Druids, we like them fine this way, deal with it." :o
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I am not sure about the new wild shape rules, but that might depend a lot on your basic combat length... and especially regarding the playtest, I am not entirely sure what to buy for a wild shape druid when it comes to items.
Other classes can invest in a lot of item and property runes, not sure how this works with the druid.
Druid Vestments are terrible. To gain their benefit you have to spend an action when you use WS making WS take 3 actions. It's sad that you can spend 2 actions to take an animal form and become weaker without some sort of magical item and it takes up your one high level item spot if you want it by level 11.
About druid AC, there's no reason you can't have darkwood plate armor to off set their low dex.
Genuine question for those of you who hate the changes.
Is this based on actual play experience or on theory crafting?
I've played the druid and find it quite enjoyable. And quite viable as a character. Its flexibility more than makes up for its lack of raw power. Hence my question
The changes to the class make it unplayable (from the standpoint of enjoyment) for me. The nerf cudgel to the class features are principal but not sole reason. Wildshape is one of the reasons as it affects not only combat but role playing as well.
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I ran the numbers as part of another discussion, and there is usually a form at each level that has AC a point or so off the best AC (often better) you can expect for a druid in humanoid form wearing magical armor (with a good Dex score). Well, up to level 15. After level 15, it's vestments or death (pretty quickly, too).
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The changes to the class make it unplayable (from the standpoint of enjoyment) for me.
You might want to hold your nose and give it a try. At least for me (and I shared many of your misgivings) it actually DID work quite well in play. Far better than I expected it to.
Falling into quicksand and being attacked by a creature with reach? One Wildshape into Frog later and problem, if not solved, addressed.
It FELT like a wild shaping druid in play.
The changes to the class make it unplayable (from the standpoint of enjoyment) for me.You might want to hold your nose and give it a try. At least for me (and I shared many of your misgivings) it actually DID work quite well in play. Far better than I expected it to.
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It FELT like a wild shaping druid in play.
No thanks. Many of the things I did in wildshape in actual play before are precluded by the rule changes. I'm sure the that wildshape still has its uses, it just is too radical a shift downward in a main class feature for me.