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I can sometime be a fairly pessimistic person, but I wanted to thank the Paizo team for all the fixes in 1.3
This update solves at least a third of my groups issues with PF2. There is still a lot I'd like to see changed but this is a great step forward.
My favorite changes include:
1) The -4 to untrained skills, but a generally reduction in target DCs.
2) Treat Wounds w' Medicine. I would even be on board with healer's kits having 10 charges. With repairs time and reduced identification time, a 20 minute power nap should keep players in the game without having to retreat and rest for the day.
3) Basic fixes to Alchemist and Ranger. Now they look playable and I can probably get my players to play them.
4) Multiclass options for all the classes
Things I'm hoping to see in the future:
1) Bonus damage dice be a quality of the character and not tied to weapon +.
2) Some kind of "at will" ability for alchemists
3) A big buff to ranger snares. The idea for a martial class with battlefield control is awesome, but it has to be much faster, much cheaper, and effect a larger area. Also, did you intend rangers to lose 1 skill? Seems weird.
4) Maybe have ancestry start you with 2 or 3 feats, but move the stronger ones (like +5 move speed for elves) to level 5.
5) More general feats.
6) More user friendly book. Adding one line descriptions to feats and spells. Adding an appendix for conditions. Stating how things normally work for feats that alter normal rules (Furious Focus, I'm looking at you).
Thanks again. I look forward to trying out the new rules this week with my group.
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I'm pretty sure they are giving Ancestry a big redo, I think it flopped the surveys.
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I think they acknowledged basic things about presentation will be changed, hopefully including basic order of sections/chapters. I don't really expect that changing much within Playtest, because it's distraction from rules changes and more appropriate to final or near-final editing pass.
Agree on short descriptors for Feat/Spell lists.
Spells are a pain, Powers should be next to their Class, not mixed in alphabetically with normal Spells.
If all the Spells had Arcane/Divine/Occult/Primal (as appropriate) indicated in their spell heading it would be so much easier to browse the spells themselves.
The "Casting # Material Casting, # Somatic Casting, #Verbal Casting" boilerplate is nuts, and undercuts the "glyphs save space" mantra. What they have right now doesn't even fit on one line if all 3 components are present. Although ironically, the longer 10 minute casting stuff is basically fine despite not using "space saving and convenient glyphs".
If the spell uses 2 or 3 actions it should just use compound action symbol ##/### instead of putting single glyph next to each component, and not repeat the word Casting multiple times. I don't think Casting should be used in bold at beginning of line, because the # glyph symbols are already meant to indicate it's talking about actions, so better just say "### [or "10 minute"] Verbal, Somatic, (and) Material Casting".
I think Alchemist over-haul can happen AFTER they over-haul Resonance which it is now linked to.
Not sure what general tweaks they could do for Ancestry, maybe something like "Half Feats" could allow more flexibility while controlling power level, i.e. 2 for 1 if you want weaker abilities, maybe starting default is 1 Full Feat + 1 Trait (half-feat) so you can choose 3 traits if you want, or 1 Feat+1Trait.
Personally I hope they reconsider Half-Elf/Orc approach, IMHO such characters do not deserve LESS customization than "full" races which current approach dictates. Their current approach may very well be good mechanic for Aasimar/Tieflings if they want to emphasize the variety of humanoid backgrounds, but that doesns't require them to use it for Half-Elfs and -Orcs who are very specific very core concept... And it's not like Aasimar/Tiefings are even "Half" races, actual Half-Celestials etc are higher powered beings than Aasimar/Tieflings.
Crossing fingers Core Goblins go, with Ratfolk my preferred replacement, but I don't have expectations there really.
Rangers got a little love with new 1st level feats.
Now you can Move, Hunt, and attack twice in 1st round with reduced secondary attack penalties.
And in Boss fights from 2nd round or if you pre ambushed "hunted" the boss you can attack it 4 times per round from level 1.
I would like to see change to magic weapons and armor.
Remove +attack and +AC from magic weapons.
Add +d12 on damage per "plus" on all weapons.
Make armors reduce 2 damage from attacks per "plus"
Remove ancestry feats.
add general feats instead.
Yes, lots of good changes there. I definitely like the direction.
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I hope "more general feats" evolves into "divorcing all feats from every class unless the feats are central to the class identity like wild shape or lay on hands"
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2) Treat Wounds w' Medicine.The best part about treat wound is "The DC is usually the medium DC for your level". Because the DCs don't scale up arbitrarily when the PCs level up, except when they do.
** spoiler omitted **
Yup, this is possibly my main remaining gripe with the system (now that out of combat healing is tackled a decent way). Specializing doesn't let you excell and be cool, only keep up.
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Ya, I strongly dislike these scaling DCs as well. Table 10-2 is not a good thing for the game. I would prefer if they go 1/2 prof a level (or something) and give us a traditional set of DCs for trivial, easy, medium, hard, etc that exist across all levels.
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See I looked at that chart and took it as just easy suggestions for what DC should be at certain level. I will not necessarily check it for every single DC I need in an adventure. I do appreciate that if I want to know what a challenging DC is for a level its easy reference at least.
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But its already affecting skills like medicine with a check that goes ever higher for no reason. Healing a guy missing 1 hp using Treat Wounds will have a crazy high DC if you are a high level character. Just because.
These moving target DCs are just no fun and really hurts PCs that are not 100% optimized. If you have 12 in a stat and are trained in a skill, well, you will probably fail at everything.
I hope they find a way to delete table 10-2 before this goes live.
But its already affecting skills like medicine with a check that goes ever higher for no reason. Healing a guy missing 1 hp using Treat Wounds will have a crazy high DC if you are a high level character. Just because.
These moving target DCs are just no fun and really hurts PCs that are not 100% optimized. If you have 12 in a stat and are trained in a skill, well, you will probably fail at everything.
I hope they find a way to delete table 10-2 before this goes live.
But it does also heal more. I already discussed that on another thread and I hate repeating myself so I won't go into details on that here.
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I'm pretty happy with 1.3. More than the changes themselves, this one shows that Paizo isn't afraid to chance core mechanics of the new game. Now, I really wish for a big update on the Paladin. The comments on the forums have been mostly negative, it seems, but perhaps the surveys are showing something completely different.
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Meh, the Ranger is still lower than a bottom rung class. The addition of the latest 2 feats does not change that the Ranger class in its current state is flawed to its core.
How so?
You now get to Recall Knowledge for free whenever you use Hunt Target and thus can gain the benefits of Monster Hunter and the like without spending an additional action.I will agree that Monster Hunter, its Master variant and Monster Warden aren't particularly impressive and could use a buff, considering they're class feats and, as such, should have more impact than they do now.
However, using these feats is no longer a loss in terms of action economy. If it doesn't work, you don't lose anything and if it does, you get a slight buff and you identify a monster's strengths or weaknesses on top of that.
The same thing applies with Hunt Target and using a combination of Hunted Target or Twin Takedown.
You use Hunt Target and then you get to attack twice and move or attack thrice.
Not even a Fighter is going to attack more than you do in a round that you activate Hunt Target.
They will move and stike twice or strike thrice, end of story.
Prior to level 14, activating a stance will have them burn an action and so they will actually lose the action economy race compared to the Ranger.
It's also now much more likely that a Ranger will get to enjoy the benefits of Hunt Target because they will almost always have a 2nd or 3rd strike each round, even if they have to command an animal companion .
This makes Hunt Target much more desirable and you will no longer lose the chance to move and strike twice (or strike thrice) because you chose to activate it.
In short:
- yes, Monster Hunter and the like could do more and be better but right now, you get to use them for free so I'm OK with what they are
- Rangers that go the crossbow or two-handed route get no help at all
The second point is the most problematic because it means you have to go with archery and TWF and you don't get to choose any other combat style of your liking.
Why is it a problem? Because a player should have the ability to build their character however they like and not be dramatically worse for it.
Rogues were just updated to allow for supporting different playstyles.
The same should hold true for all classes.
There are still some things that require tweaking for the Ranger to end up being what it should but this update is a clear boost for the class and I don't think it's fair to say they are "lower than a bottom rung class".
That is still true for crossbow and two-handed builds.
Monster Hunter is still subpar.
Animal companions are still squishy.
The Ranger multiclass archetype is...I don't have a nice word for it.
But we should at least all be able to recognize that this buff makes TWF and archery Rangers really strong.
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But it does also heal more. I already discussed that on another thread and I hate repeating myself so I won't go into details on that here.But its already affecting skills like medicine with a check that goes ever higher for no reason. Healing a guy missing 1 hp using Treat Wounds will have a crazy high DC if you are a high level character. Just because.
These moving target DCs are just no fun and really hurts PCs that are not 100% optimized. If you have 12 in a stat and are trained in a skill, well, you will probably fail at everything.
I hope they find a way to delete table 10-2 before this goes live.
This is a good point, though I do feel that basing the amount healed on the skill roll, rather than player level could achieve both goals.
Perhaps instead:
Heal or harm the target by the result of your skill check minus 10, then multiplied by their Con mod if it is higher than one. Additionally if your skill check is a critical failure vs a medium DC based on their level, then they are bolstered against this ability.Hmm... couldn't quite get rid of the DC check entirely - with the current design there needs to always be a level-relevant chance of bolstering them against the ability.
Alternatively, you could limit the action to a number of times per day based on your proficiency?
For example:
Heal the target by the result of your skill check minus 10 (minimum of one) then multiplied by their Constitution modifier if it is higher than one. This can be done any number of times per day per target up to your Medicine proficiency modifier plus one.Edit: I removed the chance of harming the target from the second example due to the hard limit on how many times it could be done.
Thats actually pretty close to what I suggested as an alternative option in the other thread I was referring too. Hmm you could probably even just have it work like a jump check with no target DC you just heal more the higher the heal check gets.
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I can sometime be a fairly pessimistic person, but I wanted to thank the Paizo team for all the fixes in 1.3
Yes I agree, good improvements
Things I'm hoping to see in the future:
1) Bonus damage dice be a quality of the character and not tied to weapon +.
Yes, that could be a good alternative
2) Some kind of "at will" ability for alchemists
Please
3) A big buff to ranger snares. The idea for a martial class with battlefield control is awesome, but it has to be much faster, much cheaper, and effect a larger area.
I'm not really sure why Snares should cost money at all, they are mostly rope and pointed sticks. Simple snares should be free. Its a cool thoughtful way to play. Please encourage snares.
I can sometime be a fairly pessimistic person, but I wanted to thank the Paizo team for all the fixes in 1.3
My favorite changes include:
(etc)Things I'm hoping to see in the future:
1) Bonus damage dice be a quality of the character and not tied to weapon +.
x
6) More user friendly book. Adding one line descriptions to feats and spells. Adding an appendix for conditions. Stating how things normally work for feats that alter normal rules (Furious Focus, I'm looking at you).
Agree with all the things improved. Good stuff.
Agree with your 'hoping to see changed list'. Especially the 'bonus damage dice not tied to weapon', which makes melee characters feel much more dependent on a magic weapon than they did in PF1.
Your point '6' has already been mentioned by Paizo: the class feats will get a bit more of a description to add more 'story niche' to each class. So you can expect to see that in the final book.
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One thing I've considered doing is actually giving levels to certain activities and using those levels to determine the DC based on the table, For example if a PC only took a few hit points in damage and thus is hardly scratched, Well that'd be a lower end check or an easy check. If they're at 1 HP because they just fought a dragon and almost lost, that's a harder check. Same deal applies to climbing or other activities.
2) Treat Wounds w' Medicine.The best part about treat wound is "The DC is usually the medium DC for your level". Because the DCs don't scale up arbitrarily when the PCs level up, except when they do.
** spoiler omitted **
If they fix this, I would consider the game's quality orders of magnitude higher than now.