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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand the numbers on monsters' attacks, damage, hp, ac, saves, and skill bonuses come from neither their ability scores, level, nor proficiency; and they don't worry about resonance.
So, is there any reason, under the current design parameters, for monsters to even have str, dex, con, int, wis, or cha scores?
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I guess if you need to know how much weight a monster can lift and stuff like that, it's useful. This was a complain in AD&D where some abilities that required tracking the specific score were very awkward on monsters.
For example, Charm Person's duration depended on the INT.
Currently, all "Untrained" skills use the mod.
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Even if it's just for calculating untrained skill modifiers, it's still useful. It also keeps the door open for future rules mechanics to interact with ability scores without breaking with monsters.
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Even if it's just for calculating untrained skill modifiers, it's still useful. It also keeps the door open for future rules mechanics to interact with ability scores without breaking with monsters.
Monsters have a separate entry for use in all other skills, so the monster stats are not even useful for that. They definitely feel superfluous to me, but you are right they may factor in later.
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No. I don't even think PLAYER characters need ability scores.
True. If the ability score increases come only in even numbers the bonus ties directly to the ability score.
Being old school I'd still like to have them but in reality they don't give any extra info
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Monsters have a separate entry for use in all other skills, so the monster stats are not even useful for that. They definitely feel superfluous to me, but you are right they may factor in later.
Now see, this doesn't make sense to me. The whole point of ability scores is to convey the natural aptitudes of the creature or character in question.
If anything, I feel the exact opposite way of this thread. PF2 has made it so easy to calculate forward based on the monster level and ability scores that it undermines the very reasoning for separating monster and PC rules in the first place.
Monsters have a separate entry for use in all other skills, so the monster stats are not even useful for that. They definitely feel superfluous to me, but you are right they may factor in later.Now see, this doesn't make sense to me. The whole point of ability scores is to convey the natural aptitudes of the creature or character in question.
If anything, I feel the exact opposite way of this thread. PF2 has made it so easy to calculate forward based on the monster level and ability scores that it undermines the very reasoning for separating monster and PC rules in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I think monsters and pcs running on different rules is a stupid design choice too. But, unless that changes, I want to understand the how's and why's of what's being presented.
Don't get me wrong, I think monsters and pcs running on different rules is a stupid design choice too. But, unless that changes, I want to understand the how's and why's of what's being presented.
That would be the real point/ core question to me also.
Monsters still hat their stats, just not noted down. A Str +4 is Str 18, especially since PCs don't get odd scores any more you can't even mistake it for being a 17 :-)
The uneven attributes not doing anything has always bugged me so that's actually a good thing that PF2 got rid of them.
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I never wrote down ability scores for monsters in PF1, I just wrote down their various bonuses, which is fine because it's the actual number I add to things and it's easy to work backwards if "what is the monster's charisma exactly" becomes relevant.
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I like having ability scores on monsters. For me, it helped define some of their character, and made them relatable to the PCs. A lot of the math of the game revolved around the ability scores (at least in PF1). And I'll need them when I want to apply PC classes or other features to them. In PF1, I really liked that monsters were built the same way as PCs, so I can build up a troll chieftain with levels in bloodrager, or a worg hunter, or a balor barbarian. You'd think living a few thousand years, a demon would pick up a few skills.
Overall, I plan on keeping ability scores, for both monsters and PCs. In addition, I plan on keeping them as a score, and not a modifier. I'm fine with odd-numbered scores, because I consider them to be another form of hit points. And numbers go 1-2-3-4, not 2-4-6-8. Of course, the odd numbers existed only to slow down ability score power increase. They tried to mitigate the uselessness by using odd ability scores as prerequisites.
Ability damage isn't much of a thing anymore in PF2, but I've always appreciated them as another venue of attack. I really liked the description of what happened when you reach 0 in a certain ability score. The threat of ability damage gave my PCs more of a fright.
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Here is one of many ways I use ability mods.
DEMONOLOGIST CREATURE 5
Skills +5; Deception +11, Intimidation +13, Religion +11
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +3, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +4
If this Demonologist does an acrobatics check, he would get +8. +5 from the bonus to all skills and +3 from Dex. The ability mods need to be used for disparity of different skill checks that are untrained. It would be bad form to have this NPC make untrained wisdom based skill checks as the same as unskilled Intelligence based skills. I realize of course that this may not be RAW. After the playtest is over this is how I will be doing it as a GM. So that is why I am very happy the NPCs have Ability scores. I also GM in a style where sometimes I don't even use a d20, I just look at an ability score and say, yep they would succeed at this or that.
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I wanna make it clear. I don't think ability scores are inherently bad design. My issue with ability scores is that they do not interact with any other systems of the regularly interacted game.
The MODIFIERS are interacted with constantly, the SCORES are basically untouched (except for a few corner cases in PF2E - Suffocating rules being the big one).
But if a game used the ability scores in a meaningful way, then that's a different can of beans. If you could take Strength damage in order to ensure a strength skill check or deal extra damage. Cool beans those scores DO something more than confuse new players who did not grow up with 4+ iterations of Dungeons and Dragons rules.
I'm more than happy to have ability scores in the game. But if they aren't doing anything, legacy/tradition is no reason at all to keep them.
Only reason I can think of are when things target ability scores so if you enfeebled or poison maybe you might need to know how much they can take.
This does not interact with your ability score in any way.Enfeebled
You’re physically weakened. Enfeebled always includes a value. When you are enfeebled, you take a conditional penalty equal to the enfeebled value on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Strength-based checks.
Oh yeah Duh sorry I was thinking of a previous version. so poisons then?
Oh yeah Duh sorry I was thinking of a previous version. so poisons then?This does not interact with your ability score in any way.Enfeebled
You’re physically weakened. Enfeebled always includes a value. When you are enfeebled, you take a conditional penalty equal to the enfeebled value on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Strength-based checks.
Poisons are also like that enfeebled condition + Hit point damage. Ability score damage/drain is nonexistant in 2e I think.
Poisons are also like that enfeebled condition + Hit point damage. Ability score damage/drain is nonexistant in 2e I think.Oh yeah Duh sorry I was thinking of a previous version. so poisons then?This does not interact with your ability score in any way.Enfeebled
You’re physically weakened. Enfeebled always includes a value. When you are enfeebled, you take a conditional penalty equal to the enfeebled value on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Strength-based checks.
Ok yeah I got nothing... only other thing I could think of would be future proofing in case they introduce something later on that does effect attributes.
When it's been brought up before the devs have mentioned it's specifically kept for legacy/tradition reasons.
I'm not thrilled with the answer, but it is an answer.
Yeah I like my future proofing idea better then that.
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People who complain about the monsters stats not matching up with the numbers on their attacks and abilities, should keep in mind that the monsters have invisible traits, for example an ogre, if you do all the math it's doing an extra 2 damage. Why is this a problem, why can't that ogre have some type of effect like rage, heavy weapon, etc. Why does it all have to be put down on the stat block and explained to you. The designer had a specific reason it has that extra damage? Ogre big, ogre smash you, get over it.
Attributes are at the 'magic missile always hit and there's a holy avenger for Paladins" level of sacred cow. Touch that and folks will hyperventilate.
No no I've decided I'm just going to put my head in the sand and call it future proofing.