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First off, I really like the direction of having sorcerers of different bloodlines use different spell lists. There might be some issues to iron out (mage armour not being on all the lists is a big one already), but it's a cool direction and definitely helps to set sorcerers apart from wizards. It also makes an encounter with a sorcerer so much more interesting, as you're not entirely sure what kind of threat you're facing until you're eating your first spell. I'm even curious to see what a party of sorcerers would look like.
That said, there are a few problems. First off, three out of the five bloodlines in the playtest give the same spell to sorcerers at first level. Can we have a bit more difference than just every sorcerer knowing fear? Magic missile for Imperial and burning hands for draconic would have fit perfectly well.
Second, please leave it up to the sorcerer to advance their bloodline powers. Sorcerers are currently the only class that loses feats for feat equivalent abilities; wizards and clerics both have the option to pick up upgrades to their school/domains but are not forced to, and can choose which level of feat they want to use to gain them. A huge number of sorcerer feats will not see use if powers are mandatory to gain.
Heightening has been brought up many times on the forums already, but I'll reiterate: let us heighten our spells. It's such a cool feature, and it could be the spontaneous spellcaster's niche to have that flexibility. If unlimited heightening is too much, at least give sorcerers the same treatment as bards with an Additional Heightening feat.
Last, keep in mind that all sorcerers cast off of Charisma. Unfortunately, none of the magic skills key off that stat, so barring bards who are in the same boat, a sorcerer will never be as good at their magic skill as the other class that they share a list with. Sorcerers would benefit greatly from either a flat bonus to their magic skill checks, or the ability to use Charisma to recall knowledge from their bloodline's magic skill.
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They definitely need something. Outside of arcane casters, the spell lists aren't strong enough to support a sorcerer. Who would play a divine sorcerer when a cleric can do so much more? Ditto primal sorcerer and druid; and occult sorcerer and bard.
It is obvious that the idea of different spell lists depending on bloodlines is very popular, so I would be reluctant to abandon that, but whatever is chosen to improve the sorcerer has to be both flavorful and must cost the arcane sorcerer something to implement. I suggest some kind of advanced bloodline chain of feats; taking these would eat into the arcane sorcerers metamagic feats but give other sorcerers something other than second rate spells that they can use.
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I don't want to nerf the cleric, I want every class brought up to the cleric's level. The sorcerer needs full feat progression and also more and better abilities, or at least more cantrips and the ability to heighten their cantrips above their actual character level. If the other spell lists aren't as good as arcane (which was already nerfed into the ground), they should be improved.
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It is a little weird that the cleric can get up to 6 free castings of heal from first level while a sorcerer can only get 1 by spending a feat. I would like to know what the core idea behind each spell list is; maybe that will help shape the sorcerer's abilities. Is the point of the divine spell list to heal, remove status conditions, and buff defensively? In that case, the sorcerer is absolutely an inefficient chassis for that. Harm is an interesting offensive spell for a divine sorcerer, but it would help to have access to the same channel-related metamagic that the cleric does.
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As I understand it, the clerics healing abilities are pretty much a must have to survive encounters. nerfing them means nerfing the chances of survival.
But giving divine sorcerers equal healing power would cut in on the cleric (and they still wouldn't be as good as a cleric who gets armor proficiency, weapon proficiency and divine powers); they really need something different but cool to give them back their mojo.
That's why I think some kind of advanced bloodline feat chain would work. Angel bloodlines be coming pseudo angels or demon bloodlines becoming pseudo devils would be cool and give sorcerers something to do besides just cast (lame) spells and be a poor cleric substitute.
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I find when I look at the bloodlines that I really like some of the bloodline powers, but hate the spell list that I'm required to use in order to get those powers. Like, Abyssal looks kinda cool to me, but I don't want to use the divine spell list. And I would like to be able to be a non-druid and get all the polymorph spells in the primal list, but the Fey bloodline powers don't really fit well with that.
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Bear in mind that even if you nerf cleric, you STILL need to give the sorcerer "more toys" to bring it up to par. The sorcerer gets less feats, less hit points, less gear proficiencies, less flexible spellcasting, less flexibility in advancement due to being locked into one bloodline, and only one power compared to the two a cleric or Bard gets. While one power is on par with wizard and druid, the powers THEY get are universally better than the bloodline power a sorcerer gets. The only class as bad as or worse than the sorcerer is the Alchemist; it needs major improvements.
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Bear in mind that even if you nerf cleric, you STILL need to give the sorcerer "more toys" to bring it up to par. The sorcerer gets less feats, less hit points, less gear proficiencies, less flexible spellcasting, less flexibility in advancement due to being locked into one bloodline, and only one power compared to the two a cleric or Bard gets. While one power is on par with wizard and druid, the powers THEY get are universally better than the bloodline power a sorcerer gets. The only class as bad as or worse than the sorcerer is the Alchemist; it needs major improvements.
I agree. The only thing the sorcerer gets is more spells and bloodlines. If the spell list is unexciting, they have to rely on bloodline abilities to make an impact, and right now they don't cut it.
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I disagree - but my dwarf cleric only has three heals a day (but the battle cleric feat is really helping). My playtest experience so far suggests improving other healers would be better. I think with an optimised healer cleric you can get by with only one source of healing but it feels as though you need a couple to get by without one at the moment.Cleric absolutely needs a nerf to channel (they are otherwise fine). Making everyone as good as the current cleric would make the game a cakewalk.
Dwarf Cleric with no charisma still has more Channel uses than a divine sorcerer (2 to 0).
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Although, if you go the Demonic bloodline you effectively get to spend 2 actions and then get an finesse attack that gives you 1d4 Temp HP every time you hit a living creature (scaling with level). Which is pretty neat - you could effectively prevent as much damage as a single channel with just a few rounds.
My reply is "WTF is a sorcerer doing in melee?"
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The differences between classes are less pronounced than in PF1. You could make a melee sorcerer who wasn't terrible easily enough.
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Biting people.Although, if you go the Demonic bloodline you effectively get to spend 2 actions and then get an finesse attack that gives you 1d4 Temp HP every time you hit a living creature (scaling with level). Which is pretty neat - you could effectively prevent as much damage as a single channel with just a few rounds.My reply is "WTF is a sorcerer doing in melee?"
What else would a sorcerer be doing in melee?
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What else would a sorcerer be doing in melee?Biting people.Although, if you go the Demonic bloodline you effectively get to spend 2 actions and then get an finesse attack that gives you 1d4 Temp HP every time you hit a living creature (scaling with level). Which is pretty neat - you could effectively prevent as much damage as a single channel with just a few rounds.My reply is "WTF is a sorcerer doing in melee?"
Tentacles.
I do want to point out that Fey Bloodline Sorcerers have it the worst. They need to get to 2nd level spells to get their only defensive "armor" spell in Barkskin. Angelic and Demonic Sorcerers can at least pick up the Shield cantrip, and they could use Protection against things they are more aware of before hand for that Mage Armor feel.
I will have to point out though that the fact that Protection is an uncommon spell is still a pain for the Sorcerer. They still need to find a way to learn it. Which I understand to a point. The Sorcerer needs to witness the spell or something to get an idea how to reconstruct it without some of the material components. They have to feel their magic out instead of getting the information through study or direct communication with various forces.
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That said, there are a few problems. First off, three out of the five bloodlines in the playtest give the same spell to sorcerers at first level. Can we have a bit more difference than just every sorcerer knowing fear? Magic missile for Imperial and burning hands for draconic would have fit perfectly well.
Second, please leave it up to the sorcerer to advance their bloodline powers. Sorcerers are currently the only class that loses feats for feat equivalent abilities; wizards and clerics both have the option to pick up upgrades to their school/domains but are not forced to, and can choose which level of feat they want to use to gain them. A huge number of sorcerer feats will not see use if powers are mandatory to gain.
Heightening has been brought up many times on the forums already, but I'll reiterate: let us heighten our spells. It's such a cool feature, and it could be the spontaneous spellcaster's niche to have that flexibility. If unlimited heightening is too much, at least give sorcerers the same treatment as bards with an Additional Heightening feat.
I agree with all of this. Untill now, i did'nt even realize they loose the 6th and 10th level feats for their bloodline powers. God, that's an awful idea, and i feel the need to remark how bad it is. I agree 100% the sorcerer should instead have 6th and 10th level feats to get the advanced and greater bloodline powers, not getting them if they so choose.
But i also want to call atention to one other problem that's been bugging me since the playtest came out, how is it that the Fey bloodline has barely any access to enchantment and illusion spells? The descendant of the notorious tricksters can't cast those? Among the spells they should have, the most egregious one to not have access to is Invisibility, you know, the one spell most archetypical fey, can cast as will. I understand how, going by name alone, fey and primal sound like a good match, but once you get into the spell list, it's obvious it's not representative of what the lineage of most fey would give.
Sure, you have some fey like the dryads which are more in tune with nature and thus it makes sense their descendants would have the Primal spell list, but to me they seem like a minority when compared with the rest.
I think they should make the Fey bloodline give Occult spells instead, or at least your choice of occult or primal.
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I do want to point out that Fey Bloodline Sorcerers have it the worst. They need to get to 2nd level spells to get their only defensive "armor" spell in Barkskin.
Barkskin is a trap, too. It is really a secret no-save debuff that forces a weakness to fire (an easy damage type to get) upon the target.
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The spell list itself should be reworked, and if in that rework they add mor illusion and enchantment spells (because fey) maybe they can kill two birds with one stone.
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I would totally be up for a level 6 Bloodline Evolution and level 10 Bloodline Paragon feat, granting the advanced and greater power respectively.
I'd also probably be interested in allowing crossblooded sorcs, in perhaps a similar manner to how cleric domains work (but locking your spell list etc. to that of your primary bloodline).
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I mean, with how easy fighter dedication is to pick up and how terrible 1st level sorcerer feats are for divine sorcerers - you don't lose much to pick up some armor training and be reasonably protected in melee. (Although since Angelic and Demonic Sorcerers don't get access to Mage Armor they really should have some sort of way to get reasonable armor within class)Although, if you go the Demonic bloodline you effectively get to spend 2 actions and then get an finesse attack that gives you 1d4 Temp HP every time you hit a living creature (scaling with level). Which is pretty neat - you could effectively prevent as much damage as a single channel with just a few rounds.My reply is "WTF is a sorcerer doing in melee?"
You could give every sorcerer light armour proficiency and that would certainly help without breaking anything. Mage armour could be reserved for wizards and low-strength characters at that point.
My only big peeve with Sorcs is that they STILL rely on the existence of a tongue and a free hand to control their inborn magical talent. It's just so wrong in feel...
Also, i realized a lot of their bloodline powers are not very good, ie. Ancestral Surge: An action and a Spell Point for... the ability for that turn to expend another action and another Spell Point in increasing the duration of a spell in one round. What the hell?
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By 1, that still doesn't justify the action+spell point, and if you do that and then cast a spell that benefits for the bonus you usually don't have actions left to concentrate, so in normal circumstances it's either one of the other.
If the duration was 1 minute instead of 1 round we might be onto something, but as is it's pretty much worthless.
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Yep, Sorcerers need help. Let's count the ways:
- The Sorcerer now has less flexibility than the Wizard, due to the Quick Preparation class feat for the Wizard and the existance of the spell heightening rules.
First possible Solution: Let the Sorcerer heighten spells at will after he has gotten him, don't restrict them to two spells per day. That still leaves the class with the requirement to choose their spells wisely, but gives them back the flexibility they lost with the new system.
Second possible Solution: Abolish spell heightening altogether. Get rid of Quick Study. Give Sorcerers more spells known to compensate for spells being their own version at each level again.
Overall there's a problem with casters, in that they don't have enough spells per day, without getting their main casting stat bonus spells. That affects the Sorcerer just as much as any other casting class.
Oh, and the Cleric is fine. Getting the other healers up to his level is the solution, not needlessly nerfing one of the only really decent classes in the current iteration of the playtest.
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My only big peeve with Sorcs is that they STILL rely on the existence of a tongue and a free hand to control their inborn magical talent. It's just so wrong in feel...
Most Sorcerer powers (all, for Aberrant) aren’t worth spending actions on even if they were at wil. Better to cast a cantrip.
Free heightening improves sorcerers way more than it does wizards. While the wizard has to hope he has the exact spell prepared or 10 minutes to spare for quick study, the sorcerer can just cast it. He doesn't even have to worry about spell obsolescence, since he doesn't prepare ahead of time.
The devs tried free heightening on all spells, it made the sorcerer OP. They tried heightening on bloodline spells only, but some bloodlines have lots of spells with heightened versions and some had none, making bloodline choice very swingy.
I'm guessing that the choice to remove the class feats in favour of bloodline powers came about as a way to try and balance sorcerers. I'm also guessing that different spell lists were not tried (or perhaps they were a last minute change and were not available), hence Arcanes are ok, but Primal/Divine/Occult all have problems.
Free heightening improves sorcerers way more than it does wizards.Free heightening is thematically appropriate for the sorc to have. The current heightening rules double down on the wizard's strength, and the sorc's weakness.
Not really sure what you mean by that, in what way does it double down on the wizard's strength and the sorc's weakness?
If you look at the higher level sorcerers in Doomsday Dawn you can see why free heightening would be a problem. Powerful sorcerers would have 10+ options for their higher level spell slots. It's way more powerful than Wizard flexibility and equivalent to handing out lots of (very expensive) pages of spell knowledge in PF1.
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There's a lot of wiggle room between freely heightening 2 spells and All spells. Perhaps upping the baseline to 4. Or increasing it regularly. Say 2 to start and 1 for every other new spell level leaving you with 5 free by level 19.
There's a lot of wiggle room between freely heightening 2 spells and All spells. Perhaps upping the baseline to 4. Or increasing it regularly. Say 2 to start and 1 for every other new spell level leaving you with 5 free by level 19.
Sure, If the consensus is that sorc's are underpowered that can be done.
So far, only non-Arcanes seem underpowered, most people seem to be reporting that arcane sorc's are ok.
That being so, I don't think extra heightenings will help. It might beef up non-arcanes, but arcanes would also get boosted (and because of their better spell list it would probably boost them more).
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Free heightening improves sorcerers way more than it does wizards. While the wizard has to hope he has the exact spell prepared or 10 minutes to spare for quick study, the sorcerer can just cast it. He doesn't even have to worry about spell obsolescence, since he doesn't prepare ahead of time.
The devs tried free heightening on all spells, it made the sorcerer OP. They tried heightening on bloodline spells only, but some bloodlines have lots of spells with heightened versions and some had none, making bloodline choice very swingy.
I'm guessing that the choice to remove the class feats in favour of bloodline powers came about as a way to try and balance sorcerers. I'm also guessing that different spell lists were not tried (or perhaps they were a last minute change and were not available), hence Arcanes are ok, but Primal/Divine/Occult all have problems.
Sorcerers have always paid that price by having a very limited spell selection throughout their careers.