Sorcerers: I like them but there are issues


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Palinurus wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
SuperSheep wrote:
There's a lot of wiggle room between freely heightening 2 spells and All spells. Perhaps upping the baseline to 4. Or increasing it regularly. Say 2 to start and 1 for every other new spell level leaving you with 5 free by level 19.

Sure, If the consensus is that sorc's are underpowered that can be done.

So far, only non-Arcanes seem underpowered, most people seem to be reporting that arcane sorc's are ok.

That being so, I don't think extra heightenings will help. It might beef up non-arcanes, but arcanes would also get boosted (and because of their better spell list it would probably boost them more).

I think I'd favour boosting bloodline abilities and class feats slightly.

I'd rather have more class feats (especially metamagic and spell alteration) and remove bloodline abilities entirely. The latter are just bad, and apparently assigned themes and effects according to a random chart (with a heavy element of 'But Thou Must Be an Idiot and Jump into Melee').

The former provides a reason for sorcerers to have so few spells known, with an emphasis on metamagic and spell alteration, they take time and focus to use what they have to the utmost, rather than dabbling in everything.

---
Also I'd just delete the occult list to save space and being little more than a muddled mix of largely the worst spells of arcane/divine jumbled together.


Pathfinder Card Game, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Voss wrote:


Also I'd just delete the occult list to save space and being little more than a muddled mix of largely the worst spells of arcane/divine jumbled together.

Funny, the occult list is just the bard list with a different name. It's enchantment, illusion, and divination spells mostly.


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Palinurus wrote:
True - my other character is a Divine sorcerer - and I think could do with buffing at level one. Yet to see how effective she is at higher levels.

Playing one at level 4. With equipment I have four 2nds and six 1sts every day. Which is where a moderate first level cleric starts (3+CHA 1st Heals per day without spending spell slots which at 3rd level turns into 3+CHA 2nd level Heals: moren' I have slots at 4th!).


SuperSheep wrote:
Voss wrote:


Also I'd just delete the occult list to save space and being little more than a muddled mix of largely the worst spells of arcane/divine jumbled together.
Funny, the occult list is just the bard list with a different name. It's enchantment, illusion, and divination spells mostly.

I know. I'm not terribly fond of the bard, and especially their 3.x/PF spell list. I would have rathered PF2 go all in on the musical abilities that they get on top of spellcasting rather than force them into a 9th level caster mould.


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Spontaneous heightening needs to be fixed. Even the current wording is wonky.

"You learn to freely heighten some of your spells..."

but it isn't free, there is a cost. You have to spend a higher level spell slot

"You can cast those spells using any applicable higher-level spell slots you may have"

The simple answer is Sorcerers can cast heightened versions of spells by using higher level spell slots, just like every other class can. They just don't have to prepare spells that way first. That's why they are spontaneous casters.

On another note, I would like to see sorcerers be able to use their resonance to cast spells. The idea that sorcerers have become the magical gadget kings because they have lots of resonance and they need the versatility is so disappointing. I'd rather see sorcerers be the class that is less reliant on external magic and more reliant on internal magic.


Using resonance to cast spells is a very good idea. Or if not resonance, would the ability to use spell points to cast additional spells/day be an option?


Gavmania wrote:
houser2112 wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
Free heightening improves sorcerers way more than it does wizards.
Free heightening is thematically appropriate for the sorc to have. The current heightening rules double down on the wizard's strength, and the sorc's weakness.
Not really sure what you mean by that, in what way does it double down on the wizard's strength and the sorc's weakness?

The heightening rules for the wizard say he can heighten any spell he knows into any higher slot he has available. Every spell he learns is potentially up to 9 spells in reality.

Because the wizard has no hard limits on the size of his spell repertoire, each individual spell isn't worth much, but it's value is multiplied by how many heightening options it has, for free. This is how the rules double down on the wizard's strength, his ability to know every spell (theoretically) in existence.

The heightening rules for the sorcerer say he must treat each level a spell can be heightened to as a separate known spell. He can get around this restriction with only 2 spells, determined at the start of the day.

Because the sorcerer has hard limits on the size of his spell repertoire, each individual spell is a significant fraction of his breadth of ability. Making him pay this precious resource for each power level he wishes to cast each spell at is how the rules double down on the sorcerer's weakness, his hard limit on spells known.

The rules add insult to injury by introducing daily preparation mechanics to a class that previously never had any, which I'd argue is the primary reason people like to play sorcerers.


Draco18s wrote:
Palinurus wrote:
True - my other character is a Divine sorcerer - and I think could do with buffing at level one. Yet to see how effective she is at higher levels.
Playing one at level 4. With equipment I have four 2nds and six 1sts every day. Which is where a moderate first level cleric starts (3+CHA 1st Heals per day without spending spell slots which at 3rd level turns into 3+CHA 2nd level Heals: moren' I have slots at 4th!).

Honestly, they just need to make the level 1 angelic bloodline not terrible.

The leaf order goodberry spell point pool puts them pretty equal to clerics in terms of healing (unless the Cleric is of the Healing domain and takes the level 1 Healing feat, but that seems like Druids just need 1-2 Healing feats to help them out).

The Bard's inspire courage helps to end the fight faster and reduces a bit of damage through the AC buff so it has some unmeasurable amount of indirect healing. If they had something more useful (healing, temp hp, regen, or just something) to spend their spell points on, then they too would be in a pretty comfortable spot.

If you gish it up a bit with the demonic bloodline you can get a ton of temp hp that should easily rival the amount of healing done by Clerics. Granted it's self only temp hp and does require you to multiclass so being in melee isn't punishing, so it's not really the best for supporting the party.

The only one that is super subpar is the Angelic bloodline ability. A self-only +1 to AC is terrible. Even with the heightened being a circle, you'd be better off just being a bard with inspire courage. I think they're actually the best choice to receive some sort of regen/fast healing based power. Since fast healing would pair nicely with their 8th level temp hp ability - give an ally fast healing and a temp hp shield to allow them to function while waiting for the fast healing to do its thing. And it's got precedent for being a thing from PF1's celestial healing (which has a drop of blood as a material component).


Sir NotAppearingInThisFilm wrote:

Using resonance to cast spells is a very good idea. Or if not resonance, would the ability to use spell points to cast additional spells/day be an option?

OR combine resonance and spell points. They are close enough in concept that they could easily be the same thing.

Spell points = innate magic used to activate special powers
Resonance = innate magic used to activate magic items

Spell point + resonance = innate magic that can be used to activate special powers or magic items.

Sorcerers could use their innate magic to activate special powers, magic items, or cast spells.

All that has to be worked out is the math.


Zorae wrote:


Honestly, they just need to make the level 1 angelic bloodline not terrible.

I'd like to see angelic halo be 24 hours. Seems a little weird that you are an angel for 1 minute x spell points per day. The rest of the time you are just like everyone else.


Zorae wrote:
Honestly, they just need to make the level 1 angelic bloodline not terrible.

True enough

Quote:
If you gish it up a bit with the demonic bloodline you can get a ton of temp hp that should easily rival the amount of healing done by Clerics.

Temp HP doesn't stack, fyi. Its only a d4 each time.

Quote:
The only one that is super subpar is the Angelic bloodline ability. A self-only +1 to AC is terrible. Even with the heightened being a circle, you'd be better off just being a bard with inspire courage. I think they're actually the best choice to receive some sort of regen/fast healing based power. Since fast healing would pair nicely with their 8th level temp hp ability - give an ally fast healing and a temp hp shield to allow them to function while waiting for the fast healing to do its thing. And it's got precedent for being a thing from PF1's celestial healing (which has a drop of blood as a material component).

That's an interesting idea.


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houser2112 wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
houser2112 wrote:
Gavmania wrote:
Free heightening improves sorcerers way more than it does wizards.
Free heightening is thematically appropriate for the sorc to have. The current heightening rules double down on the wizard's strength, and the sorc's weakness.
Not really sure what you mean by that, in what way does it double down on the wizard's strength and the sorc's weakness?

The heightening rules for the wizard say he can heighten any spell he knows into any higher slot he has available. Every spell he learns is potentially up to 9 spells in reality.

Because the wizard has no hard limits on the size of his spell repertoire, each individual spell isn't worth much, but it's value is multiplied by how many heightening options it has, for free. This is how the rules double down on the wizard's strength, his ability to know every spell (theoretically) in existence.

The problem with this assessment is that wizards could already do this. There was nothing stopping them from spending pretty trivial amounts of gold to learn both invisibility and greater invisibility, for example. And that's just for the spells where heightening makes a big difference. For lots of spells the status quo is effectively unchanged, and for lots more (like blasts) using a heightened lower level spell tends to be suboptimal compared to higher level blasts. So wizards aren't actually improving much from where they were already.

Sorcerers on the other hand gained a lot from this-- they can now get more mileage out of a single spell known by turning it into multiple spells known, and effectively swap spells out on a daily basis. That's a huge buff from PF1.

Quote:
The rules add insult to injury by introducing daily preparation mechanics to a class that previously never had any, which I'd argue is the primary reason people like to play sorcerers.

Nah. While I'm sure there are some folks out there that feel this way, I doubt they are in the majority. I've seen a bunch of people using the Spirit Guide Oracle archetype, which makes for some of the most powerful oracles in the game. One of my players just told me he doesn't want to convert his Spirit Guide Oracle to a PF2 cleric because while he loves choosing his wandering spirit each day, he doesn't want to do full blown prepared casting.

The reason folks don't want to do prepared casters is because preparing the exact number of spell slots each day is a pretty mentally taxing process; picking two from your repertoire to spontaneously heighten is much easier. And giving free heightening would probably make sorcerers even more mentally taxing than prepared casters, only that tax would be applied mid-combat making it slow the game down much worse.

I can dig sorcerers getting more spontaneous heightening options (I think it is weird that the bard has these options and they don't) but lets not mischaracterize the issue.


Zorae wrote:


The Bard's inspire courage helps to end the fight faster and reduces a bit of damage through the AC buff so it has some unmeasurable amount of indirect healing.

Inspire Courage doesn't give an AC buff. Just to hit, damage, and saves against fear.


Captain Morgan wrote:
houser2112 wrote:

The heightening rules for the wizard say he can heighten any spell he knows into any higher slot he has available. Every spell he learns is potentially up to 9 spells in reality.

Because the wizard has no hard limits on the size of his spell repertoire, each individual spell isn't worth much, but it's value is multiplied by how many heightening options it has, for free. This is how the rules double down on the wizard's strength, his ability to know every spell (theoretically) in existence.

The problem with this assessment is that wizards could already do this. There was nothing stopping them from spending pretty trivial amounts of gold to learn both invisibility and greater invisibility, for example.

And now he doesn't even need to do that much. He gets a 4th level spell AND a 2nd level spell for the price of a 2nd.

Captain Morgan wrote:
And that's just for the spells where heightening makes a big difference. For lots of spells the status quo is effectively unchanged, and for lots more (like blasts) using a heightened lower level spell tends to be suboptimal compared to higher level blasts. So wizards aren't actually improving much from where they were already.

You're forgetting the new baseline changed from spells scaling in effectiveness with increased caster level, to only improving with increased slot level. Prepared casters were given the ability to freely heighten, spont casters are forced to learn each spell level separately. Effectively, wizards have magic missile on their spell list, while sorcerers have magic missile i, magic missile ii ... magic missile ix. The Spontaneous Heightening feature lets them get around this for a limited number of spells (spell groups, really) per day.

The fact that upcast low level spells not being as effective as a higher spell cast from that same slot exacerbates the problem, because the sorc MUST burn another known slot to know that higher level spell. Spontaneous Heightening CAN'T help him.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Sorcerers on the other hand gained a lot from this-- they can now get more mileage out of a single spell known by turning it into multiple spells known, and effectively swap spells out on a daily basis. That's a huge buff from PF1.

Again, if you're going to compare the PF2 sorc to the PF1 sorc, you have to take into account that the PF1 sorc didn't need SH to scale his spells. If we're going to compare apples to apples, the PF2 sorc is WORSE off, because he only gets 2/day.

Captain Morgan wrote:
houser2112 wrote:
The rules add insult to injury by introducing daily preparation mechanics to a class that previously never had any, which I'd argue is the primary reason people like to play sorcerers.
Nah. While I'm sure there are some folks out there that feel this way, I doubt they are in the majority. I've seen a bunch of people using the Spirit Guide Oracle archetype, which makes for some of the most powerful oracles in the game. One of my players just told me he doesn't want to convert his Spirit Guide Oracle to a PF2 cleric because while he loves choosing his wandering spirit each day, he doesn't want to do full blown prepared casting.

How is this refuting my point? He didn't like prepared casting then, so he played a spontaneous caster. He doesn't like prepared casting now, so he's not going to play a cleric, which is a prepared caster.

Captain Morgan wrote:
The reason folks don't want to do prepared casters is because preparing the exact number of spell slots each day is a pretty mentally taxing process; picking two from your repertoire to spontaneously heighten is much easier.

Of course it is. I know well the feeling of needing an invisibility and only having a knock, and this is why I exclusively play spont casters. Again, how is this refuting my point?

Captain Morgan wrote:
And giving free heightening would probably make sorcerers even more mentally taxing than prepared casters, only that tax would be applied mid-combat making it slow the game down much worse.

I played a Dreamscarred Press psion in PF1, which is a free-spont-heightening sorc on steroids (due to many powers having more options to augment them than just bigger bangs). Deciding what powers to have in my repertoire was more agonizing than the tactical power use.


Draco18s wrote:
Zorae wrote:
Honestly, they just need to make the level 1 angelic bloodline not terrible.

True enough

Quote:
If you gish it up a bit with the demonic bloodline you can get a ton of temp hp that should easily rival the amount of healing done by Clerics.

Temp HP doesn't stack, fyi. Its only a d4 each time.

That's an interesting idea.

Yes, but the Sorcerer uses a single spell point and then for 1 min they get temp Hp every time they hit something. So unless the DM is ignoring the melee sorcerer, they'll prevent about as much as a single Cleric casting of heal with 2 rounds of attacking and being hit. So theoretically it could be waaay more "healing" than a Cleric is capable of if you somehow went the full 10 rounds of shielding+being hit.

Although it is self only, so that really just makes them a unique sort of tank rather than a healer (still cool though!). If they do make a Sorcerer archetype and allow reasonable access to bloodline powers, then it would be crazy strong to take it with a paladin.


Xenocrat wrote:
Zorae wrote:


The Bard's inspire courage helps to end the fight faster and reduces a bit of damage through the AC buff so it has some unmeasurable amount of indirect healing.
Inspire Courage doesn't give an AC buff. Just to hit, damage, and saves against fear.

Oops. Was reading the description in the bard class and just stopped at "which boosts your allies’ attacks, damage, and defense". The fact that "against fear" is the rest of that sentence is pretty important.

It still does provide a reasonable amount of indirect healing by improving hit+dmg.


houser2112 wrote:


And now he doesn't even need to do that much. He gets a 4th level spell AND a 2nd level spell for the price of a 2nd.

And that is a pretty trivial gain.

Quote:
And that's just for the spells where heightening makes a big difference. For lots of spells the status quo is effectively unchanged, and for lots more (like blasts) using a heightened lower level spell tends to be suboptimal compared to higher level blasts. So wizards aren't actually improving much from where they were already.
Quote:

You're forgetting the new baseline changed from spells scaling in effectiveness with increased caster level, to only improving with increased slot level. Prepared casters were given the ability to freely heighten, spont casters are forced to learn each spell level separately. Effectively, wizards have magic missile on their spell list, while sorcerers have magic missile i, magic missile ii ... magic missile ix. The Spontaneous Heightening feature lets them get around this for a limited number of spells (spell groups, really) per day.

The fact that upcast low level spells not being as effective as a higher spell cast from that same slot exacerbates the problem, because the sorc MUST burn another known slot to know that higher level spell. Spontaneous Heightening CAN'T help him.

No, I'm taking that into account. The thing is that neither a sorcerer or a wizard WANTS to be heightening the average lower level spells that regularly. A sorcerer who learns 5th level burning hands instead of Cone of Cold is a bad sorcerer. A wizard who prepares a 5th level Burning Hands is being a bad wizard.

What either version of heightening lets the caster do for the majority of spells is A) try and substitute a lower level spell to do the job of a higher level one, or B) try and leverage a lower level spell for a very specific task like an elemental weakness. Given a days notice, both casters have the ability to pull this off. The wizard can do this for more spells in a day than a sorcerer, but is then having to hope they fill their slots in correctly where the sorcerer can cast as many burning hands as she ends up needing across all of her spell slots.

There are a smattering of spells that break this rule. They include Dispel Magic and the Summons, all of which function better with spontaneous heightening than they do with a wizard trying to guess which level he will need ahead of time.

It also includes stuff like Invisibility, where it only has 2 levels of relevant use. I don't think there are a lot of spells that fall under this umbrella. This is where the wizard gets a benefit over the sorcerer, but in the case of Invisibility, if the wizard and sorcerer both want Greater Invisibility then the PF2 wizard is just saving the money of scribing a second level spell over his PF1 counterpart.

Now, if the spell list worked how, sayFlight spells shttp://www.starjammersrd.com/magic-and-spells/spells/f/flight/eem to work in Starfinder, you'd have more of a point. That's a spell where heightening it would have enormous implications. But we don't really have stuff like that in the current spell list.

What we have is mostly have is either save or suck and utility spells that don't have heightened benefits at all, and combat spells like blasts and polymorph effects that you really mostly want to use in your highest level slot anyway, because otherwise they fall behind in relevancy. These latter spells are often rendered obsolete by higher level spells even when heightened.

Either way, a sorcerer is better off replacing 1st level Burning Hands with True Strike or something and using their highest level spell slot to snag the best blast on the market. Should this happen, then I suppose the wizard's edge has a small chance to come into play if a Heightened Burning hands becomes a better option than the top of the line blast spell, because he still has it in his book. Assuming he prepared it, of course. I don't like the odds of that happening very often.

Quote:
How is this refuting my point? He didn't like prepared casting then, so he played a spontaneous caster. He doesn't like prepared casting now, so he's not going to play a cleric, which is a prepared caster.

Because the Spirit Guide Oracle is a spontaneous caster with daily preparation mechanics. It chooses a different wandering spirit each day which grants an additional spell known of each level they can cast. It is extremely similar to the Sorcerer's spontaneous heightening or Arcane Evolution mechanics.

You claimed that most people don't want a daily preparation mechanic on a prepared caster, but everyone I've met who has become aware of the Spirit Guide has appreciated the additional power and flexibility their daily preparation mechanic provides. This has held true even for players who don't want to play a full blown prepared caster.


Zorae wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
Palinurus wrote:
DataLoreRPG wrote:

Cleric absolutely needs a nerf to channel (they are otherwise fine). Making everyone as good as the current cleric would make the game a cakewalk.

I disagree - but my dwarf cleric only has three heals a day (but the battle cleric feat is really helping). My playtest experience so far suggests improving other healers would be better. I think with an optimised healer cleric you can get by with only one source of healing but it feels as though you need a couple to get by without one at the moment.
Dwarf Cleric with no charisma still has more Channel uses than a divine sorcerer (2 to 0).

And if Angelic Halo wasn't so bad, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Although, if you go the Demonic bloodline you effectively get to spend 2 actions and then get an finesse attack that gives you 1d4 Temp HP every time you hit a living creature (scaling with level). Which is pretty neat - you could effectively prevent as much damage as a single channel with just a few rounds.

What exactly is so bad about Angelic Halo? At 1st level, as per Protection (evil) you get +1 to AC and saves against evil creature, +3 AC against summoned evil creatures and +3 saves effects that directly control you. Oh and you only need to spend two actions on what is essentially a three action spell. Additionally at 5th level, you automatically heighten it to a 3rd level spell and it effectively becomes Circle of Protection (evil), another three action cast reduced to two actions when using this ability that forces evil summoned creatures to make a will save to get within 10 feet of you. And at 9th level, it is auto heightened to 5th level and lasts an hour instead of a minute. It costs spell points, not spell slots so this is in addition to the four spells per day you get.


Snickersnax wrote:
Zorae wrote:


Honestly, they just need to make the level 1 angelic bloodline not terrible.
I'd like to see angelic halo be 24 hours. Seems a little weird that you are an angel for 1 minute x spell points per day. The rest of the time you are just like everyone else.

10 minutes would be OK. In present form it is very underwhelming.


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On another note, People seem not to notice that Sorcerers have a specialty that they are better at than any other class, and that is Counterspelling. A sorcerer can Counterspell using a slot instead of a prepared spell that the wizard's Counterspell ability uses. As a divine caster, a sorcerer with the Heal spell as one of his heightened spell for the day can effectively block an enemy cleric from healing with his Heal at any spell level the sorcerer can cast. Even if this does not block all of the cleric's heals, it still blocks at least four of them and that can be incredibly useful especially if the enemy cleric is using the three action heal.

This also makes the Sorcerer the only Divine, Occult, and primal casting class so far capable of Counterspelling, and even though Wizard's can use it, the Sorcerer version of Counterspell is objectively better.


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FoxofShadows wrote:
On another note, People seem not to notice that Sorcerers have a specialty that they are better at than any other class, and that is Counterspelling.

While true, Counterspell is still bad. If you're using a spell slot equal to what the enemy is using, you need to make a spell roll vs. that effect's DC. If you use a slot lower, you have a -5 penalty.


FoxofShadows wrote:
Zorae wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
Palinurus wrote:
DataLoreRPG wrote:

Cleric absolutely needs a nerf to channel (they are otherwise fine). Making everyone as good as the current cleric would make the game a cakewalk.

I disagree - but my dwarf cleric only has three heals a day (but the battle cleric feat is really helping). My playtest experience so far suggests improving other healers would be better. I think with an optimised healer cleric you can get by with only one source of healing but it feels as though you need a couple to get by without one at the moment.
Dwarf Cleric with no charisma still has more Channel uses than a divine sorcerer (2 to 0).

And if Angelic Halo wasn't so bad, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Although, if you go the Demonic bloodline you effectively get to spend 2 actions and then get an finesse attack that gives you 1d4 Temp HP every time you hit a living creature (scaling with level). Which is pretty neat - you could effectively prevent as much damage as a single channel with just a few rounds.

What exactly is so bad about Angelic Halo? At 1st level, as per Protection (evil) you get +1 to AC and saves against evil creature, +3 AC against summoned evil creatures and +3 saves effects that directly control you. Oh and you only need to spend two actions on what is essentially a three action spell. Additionally at 5th level, you automatically heighten it to a 3rd level spell and it effectively becomes Circle of Protection (evil), another three action cast reduced to two actions when using this ability that forces evil summoned creatures to make a will save to get within 10 feet of you. And at 9th level, it is auto heightened to 5th level and lasts an hour instead of a minute. It costs spell points, not spell slots so this is in addition to the four spells per day you get.

Because it's really only helpful for being a gish, and the demonic bloodline power is superior for doing that. If they got something that let them buff other people or some form of healing/shielding of other people from level 1, then they would actually be able to function as the party healer/support.

It would put them on equal footing with Clerics and Leaf Order Druids as far as that role goes.


Gavmania wrote:

As I understand it, the clerics healing abilities are pretty much a must have to survive encounters. nerfing them means nerfing the chances of survival.

But giving divine sorcerers equal healing power would cut in on the cleric (and they still wouldn't be as good as a cleric who gets armor proficiency, weapon proficiency and divine powers); they really need something different but cool to give them back their mojo.

That's why I think some kind of advanced bloodline feat chain would work. Angel bloodlines be coming pseudo angels or demon bloodlines becoming pseudo devils would be cool and give sorcerers something to do besides just cast (lame) spells and be a poor cleric substitute.

My table didn't have anyone drop to 0 until the boss in the playtest where he just rolled 3 crits in 1 round at which point we suddenly remembered hero points where a thing while only having a bard for healing. If people remember this thing called tactics and caution then you aren't gonna get mobbed by 6 skeletons.


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Kodyboy wrote:

Sorcerers are simply not competitive as is.

Make their bloodline powers at will and they would be.

I mean.. That would be true if the bloodline powers were useful.

See the Fey bloodline power for an exercise in frustration. It actually does nothing. This gets infinitely more painful when you look at the powers they had in PF1.

No, they need Better powers, free heightening.

I think a much more useful option would be a single casting/level that was fully spontaneous, (any common spell on your spell list) this is especially true for Primal and Divine Sorcs, where 70% of the spell list is circumstantial at best owing to the fact that druids and clerics have access to their entire spell list from the word go.

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