Zwordsman wrote: I can say.. I will be using darts (or shuriken depends if i take fighter multiclass) on my main playtest characte the whole way through
I simply feel that using mostly thrown darts/shuriken fits my alchemist far better for how he plays.
currently there are no rules for dartshurikens being destroyed on use.. so at least I'll be able to afford the one and slap returning on it
Darts are also a pretty good way to use poisons. Early on there are some decent poisons that are even more damaging than your early bombs so if you coat a couple daggers with them during prep phase any time during that day if you hit somebody with that dart there is a good chance they get hit by the poison as well for some solid damage/debuffs.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
PossibleCabbage wrote: I figure alchemists benefit a lot from taking an ancestry trait that gives them weapons.
It generally feels like if a single feat can address a shortcoming of a class, it's probably fine.
Problem with designing and balancing for taht kind of thing, is that it limits build capacities. You get so VERY few Ancestry feats.
it really is just another part of Alchemists that are strange. but in general I cant see balancing a class on the idea that they can pick up something like that.
Just taking human for a n example (because this came up in my current Alchemist)
You can use your level 1 ancestry feat to pick up a weapon profiency. But. that means you can not get the Assist boost feat for instance.
I really don't think that is good design.
kaid wrote:
Darts are also a pretty good way to use poisons. Early on there are some decent poisons that are even more damaging than your early bombs so if you coat a couple daggers with them during prep phase any time during that day if you hit somebody with that dart there is a good chance they get hit by the poison as well for some solid damage/debuffs.
Yup, its nifty.
but realistically you have so few that you want to save that poison for something special. My alchemist had 5RP. but I wanted elixirs and such, ya'kno useful tools? which meant i had far less number of poisons to spread around.
Though by sheer luck he crit on darts surpringly often. Though for a total of.. 7 damage, which was still less damage than anyone else.
Though eventually I might turn him into a ranged assist via Fighter MC.
but this is off topic now, except I guess, as an example that the dice choices available can really make a class have issues, and I fully suspect, at higher levels, to be pretty impotent with the choices I have base weapon wise. (which is one reason I was looking at ranged Assist. Though, its usefulness is debatable)
ThatGuySteve wrote: PossibleCabbage wrote: For the most part it seems like d4 weapons are ones with a huge pile of traits (e.g. whip, sai, starknife), have a reliable way to increase the damage to respectable levels (staves are d8 if you 2 hand them, light picks are fatal d8), or aren't things that will be your primary choice of weapon unless they are your deity's sacred weapon (which you have a class feature to address). Since things like daggers, fists, and light shield bashes are more "holdout weapons" than primary combat options for most people. Even with fatal, a light pick will do less average damage than a short sword in almost every case. Short swords then get Finesse and Versatile on top.
That's simply not true.
Light pick has a 3.7-3.5x crit multiplier
Your first attack with it, in a build made to crit (high attack bonuses) gives you more than 30% chance to crit with it.
Add keen on it to have 10% flat crit chance (19 is almost always a hit with an agile weapon in such a build) and there's no way a short sword can reach that.
Simple example: you crit on a 15+, you're wielding a +3 weapon and have +5 strength.
That's : 30% crit, 50% hit, 20% miss
Light pick:
0.3*(9d8+8+10)+0.5*(4d4+5)= 25.05
Shortsword :
0.3*(8d6+10)+0.5*(4d6+5)= 20.9
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
kaid wrote: Zwordsman wrote: I can say.. I will be using darts (or shuriken depends if i take fighter multiclass) on my main playtest characte the whole way through
I simply feel that using mostly thrown darts/shuriken fits my alchemist far better for how he plays.
currently there are no rules for dartshurikens being destroyed on use.. so at least I'll be able to afford the one and slap returning on it
Darts are also a pretty good way to use poisons. Early on there are some decent poisons that are even more damaging than your early bombs so if you coat a couple daggers with them during prep phase any time during that day if you hit somebody with that dart there is a good chance they get hit by the poison as well for some solid damage/debuffs. It's not a "good chance".
You have like 50% chance to miss (wasting the poison) followed by more than 50% for the monster to save (wasting the poison)
That's 75% to do nothing with your RP. At least bombs do their splash even on miss...
As you progress in levels, poisons get even worse the way Fort saves and poison immunity scales for monsters and the way your attacks don't grow in proficiency, meaning even more misses.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
shroudb wrote: ThatGuySteve wrote: PossibleCabbage wrote: For the most part it seems like d4 weapons are ones with a huge pile of traits (e.g. whip, sai, starknife), have a reliable way to increase the damage to respectable levels (staves are d8 if you 2 hand them, light picks are fatal d8), or aren't things that will be your primary choice of weapon unless they are your deity's sacred weapon (which you have a class feature to address). Since things like daggers, fists, and light shield bashes are more "holdout weapons" than primary combat options for most people. Even with fatal, a light pick will do less average damage than a short sword in almost every case. Short swords then get Finesse and Versatile on top.
That's simply not true.
Light pick has a 3.7-3.5x crit multiplier
Your first attack with it, in a build made to crit (high attack bonuses) gives you more than 30% chance to crit with it.
Add keen on it to have 10% flat crit chance (19 is almost always a hit with an agile weapon in such a build) and there's no way a short sword can reach that.
Simple example: you crit on a 15+, you're wielding a +3 weapon and have +5 strength.
That's : 30% crit, 50% hit, 20% miss
Light pick:
0.3*(9d8+8+10)+0.5*(4d4+5)= 25.05
Shortsword :
0.3*(8d6+10)+0.5*(4d6+5)= 20.9
I've not seen a build that hits on 5+ against equal level enemies before, how are you getting your attack bonus so high? Your other post replying to kaid was only assuming a 50% hit rate, rather than 80%.
Not everyone is guaranteed to have critical specialisation, I think. Without it your only doing 22.65 avg with the pick. Just to keep in mind.
Have you calculated the damage of 2nd and 3rd attacks for the round where you will only be criting on 20 (19 with keen)? Once you drop the crit rate, bigger dice will win out.
ThatGuySteve wrote: shroudb wrote: ThatGuySteve wrote: PossibleCabbage wrote: For the most part it seems like d4 weapons are ones with a huge pile of traits (e.g. whip, sai, starknife), have a reliable way to increase the damage to respectable levels (staves are d8 if you 2 hand them, light picks are fatal d8), or aren't things that will be your primary choice of weapon unless they are your deity's sacred weapon (which you have a class feature to address). Since things like daggers, fists, and light shield bashes are more "holdout weapons" than primary combat options for most people. Even with fatal, a light pick will do less average damage than a short sword in almost every case. Short swords then get Finesse and Versatile on top.
That's simply not true.
Light pick has a 3.7-3.5x crit multiplier
Your first attack with it, in a build made to crit (high attack bonuses) gives you more than 30% chance to crit with it.
Add keen on it to have 10% flat crit chance (19 is almost always a hit with an agile weapon in such a build) and there's no way a short sword can reach that.
Simple example: you crit on a 15+, you're wielding a +3 weapon and have +5 strength.
That's : 30% crit, 50% hit, 20% miss
Light pick:
0.3*(9d8+8+10)+0.5*(4d4+5)= 25.05
Shortsword :
0.3*(8d6+10)+0.5*(4d6+5)= 20.9
I've not seen a build that hits on 5+ against equal level enemies before, how are you getting your attack bonus so high? Your other post replying to kaid was only assuming a 50% hit rate, rather than 80%.
Not everyone is guaranteed to have critical specialisation, I think. Without it your only doing 22.65 avg with the pick. Just to keep in mind.
Have you calculated the damage of 2nd and 3rd attacks for the round where you will only be criting on 20 (19 with keen)? Once you drop the crit rate, bigger dice will win out. a fighter with flank and some self-buffs (or a bard in party).*
the numbers are taken directly from my high level fighter sheet when i was looking for "optimal dps weapons".**
**that was level 14 and level 20, with varying support of extranal buffs due to party/build composition.
And yes, not everyone will have crit specialization.
but some people will have it.
There's certainly not a need for everyone to use the same weapon.
some will do better with some weapons, some will do better with other weapons.
*It's not "vaccuum dpr" that one can do in a nova, but more like "I have this specific build for this party, what would be best?" kinda of scenario.
In an optimized +attack build, crit weapons will do fairly better than non-crit ones, in a +damage build, RAW damage weapons like the falchion will do better, etc
As an example, if you don't have an easy way with your party to set up flank, sword specialization is amazing.
If you have flank 90% of the time already, it's not that great.
Similary, if you have attack buffs in your party, Picks are great. If not, they are subpar.
That's good. that means that more weapons willbe usable and there won't be the one-true-king weapon for all builds to maximize their damage.
But claiming that "a shortsword will outdps a light pick every time" is a purely false statement.
edit:
the post replying to kaid was assuming an alchemist attacking.
alchemists suck at +to hit, hence the 50% to hit
I never said it would be every time, just most cases. I doubt most characters will be able to get as high as hitting on 5+ without some serious help and optimisation.
I've run numbers on light pick vs short sword, from mundane to +5 and considering whether you get 1, 2 or 3 attacks. This is counting crit specialisation for picks but not for swords, flat footed is not a guaranteed bonus as you might already have flanking, etc, so hard to quantify mathematically but but could situations provide a good boost to landing 2nd/3rd attacks.
If you are hitting between 9+ and 12+ on 1st attack then short sword is better. 8+ or better swings to pick. 13+ or worse and it gradually switches to picks depending on number off attacks; 15+ single attack is the last time short sword is better.
My choice would be short sword as I think between 9+ and 12+ to hit is the normal range for level appropriate enemies. Tougher enemies should be few and far between. Weaker enemies shouldn't need to be optimised against to defeat.
ThatGuySteve wrote: I've run numbers on light pick vs short sword, from mundane to +5 and considering whether you get 1, 2 or 3 attacks. This is counting crit specialisation for picks but not for swords, flat footed is not a guaranteed bonus as you might already have flanking, etc, so hard to quantify mathematically but but could situations provide a good boost to landing 2nd/3rd attacks.
If you are hitting between 9+ and 12+ on 1st attack then short sword is better. 8+ or better swings to pick. 13+ or worse and it gradually switches to picks depending on number off attacks; 15+ single attack is the last time short sword is better.
My choice would be short sword as I think between 9+ and 12+ to hit is the normal range for level appropriate enemies. Tougher enemies should be few and far between. Weaker enemies shouldn't need to be optimised against to defeat.
have you included Keen in your calculations? for me that was what pushed light pick in multi attack calculations way above shortswords
shroudb wrote: ThatGuySteve wrote: I've run numbers on light pick vs short sword, from mundane to +5 and considering whether you get 1, 2 or 3 attacks. This is counting crit specialisation for picks but not for swords, flat footed is not a guaranteed bonus as you might already have flanking, etc, so hard to quantify mathematically but but could situations provide a good boost to landing 2nd/3rd attacks.
If you are hitting between 9+ and 12+ on 1st attack then short sword is better. 8+ or better swings to pick. 13+ or worse and it gradually switches to picks depending on number off attacks; 15+ single attack is the last time short sword is better.
My choice would be short sword as I think between 9+ and 12+ to hit is the normal range for level appropriate enemies. Tougher enemies should be few and far between. Weaker enemies shouldn't need to be optimised against to defeat.
have you included Keen in your calculations? for me that was what pushed light pick in multi attack calculations way above shortswords No, I hadn't included Keen, which would favour the pick. Keen only comes into play at 13th level and for the cost of Keen I could add several +1d6 energy runes to a short sword instead.
Edit: if you are hitting on a 5+, keen is only giving you a bonus on your 3rd attack with a light pick, why choose it?
shroudb wrote: a fighter with flank and some self-buffs (or a bard in party).*
the numbers are taken directly from my high level fighter...
Care to share this fighter? I've been trying to build one and I can't duplicate your numbers and I'm curious what I'm missing.
Chess Pwn wrote: shroudb wrote: a fighter with flank and some self-buffs (or a bard in party).*
the numbers are taken directly from my high level fighter...
Care to share this fighter? I've been trying to build one and I can't duplicate your numbers and I'm curious what I'm missing. which one out of all of them? ^^
i had a pretty standard fighter, a fighter/cleric with some limited self buffs, a fighter/wizard relying on wand of true strike+magical striker, etc
the simple fighter, was at:
+20 from level, +7 from strength, +5 from item, +3 from proficiency, fo a +35
vs 44 ac cr20 monsters, -2 from flank he hits on a 7+, add in a bard he hits at minimum 6+
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I agree, they should be Reload 0. But in the meantime, I ruled that since he has two free hands due to not using a shield, he can use one Interact action to draw two weapons (darts), one in each hand. This doesn't seem to be addressed or forbidden anywhere, and it makes them much more playable and sane than taking a separate draw-weapon action for each dart. And it's not like there's off-hand penalties, soooo....
Probably because darts as weapons are not board game darts, but war darts, which are about the same size as a throwing dagger.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Which aren't really that hard to draw honestly.
I really can't see the act of drawing the lawn dart (if you're from the 90s) to be functionally harder than pulling an arrow from quiver and knocking it properly. Time or effort wise.
I would, though point out, that even the blow gun has a reload. which should be far easier than either of the above examples. (granted it also can't really get more damage in any method other than poison I know of. even magic)
I do get that its a mechanical thing. They want bows to be superior (what with martial) so they impose difficulty I suppose.
it does hurt though, with the way quick draw works in this edition (and that it is restricted)
Zwordsman wrote: Which aren't really that hard to draw honestly.
I really can't see the act of drawing the lawn dart (if you're from the 90s) to be functionally harder than pulling an arrow from quiver and knocking it properly. Time or effort wise.
I would, though point out, that even the blow gun has a reload. which should be far easier than either of the above examples. (granted it also can't really get more damage in any method other than poison I know of. even magic)
I do get that its a mechanical thing. They want bows to be superior (what with martial) so they impose difficulty I suppose.
it does hurt though, with the way quick draw works in this edition (and that it is restricted)
They are probably a bit harder to draw then you give them credit for. A dagger lies flat against you. A (war) dart has fins that are not as easily stowed on your person, which requires more effort to stow, and more to pull out of that storage.
Until they alter it. I'm assuming they're more or less the same as E1. Which is not the same as the tin ydarts for a blowgun.
It is shorter than a javelin, and longer than arrows.. BUT. The description implies its as thin and flexi as an arrow just longer (but still shorter than javelin).
Javelin are 2lbs.
Darts 1/2lb. So.. they gotta be pretty darn smaller than a javelin.
but arrows are .15lbs so there are 3-4 worth of weight to a Dart. due to length rather than fletching or girth it seems.
So, I'd still say you could have them in a almost standard quiver relatively easily-probably slightly longer quiver on the back or waist. Daggers in Pathfinder are 1ft long and I rather doubt are significantly thicker than a dagger with how blades typically are made.
That is all from P1 though. so basically no real application to this system.
but I do feel that they make a judgement to the idea of hte designer's weapon thoughts.
Even if they wouldn't allow free dart drawing like arrows. There really is no reason the Blowgun doesn't have a free reload the the least.
but I still do feel like it is very odd and likely purely a mechanical choice to not allow certain combat styles that mix range and CQC
(for the throwing dart. i'd call nebulous because slightly longer should probably equal out the trouble of knocking with both hands--and potentially pulling the strings)
"Darts are missile weapons, designed to fly such that a sharp, often weighted point will strike first. They can be distinguished from javelins by fletching (i.e., feathers on the tail) and a shaft that is shorter and/or more flexible, and from arrows by the fact that they are not of the right length to use with a normal bow."
Zwordsman wrote: HWalsh wrote: The problem is the people using d4 weapons (that stay d4) are mostly rogues.
Alchemists, unless they expand their weapon choice via multiclass or general feat, have a pretty good likelihood of being stuck with d4.
Simple weapons that aren't d4. Club. Longspear. Morning Star, Spear.
All other simple melee weapon I see are D4. The decent d6 and d8 weapons you yourself mentioned (never mind crossbows you ignored) seem like pretty good reasons they won't be "stuck" with d4 weapons.
Incidentally, I do think custom Repeating Crossbow is fodder for Tinker Alchemist Feat. (as are Fire-arms/ Hand-Cannons)
That probably deserves discussion in another thread, part of probem is Alchemist is just such an over-all wreck right now,
and will likely play rather differently after Resonance is over-hauled, probababy no longer using Resonance or it's replacement.
It's just not conceptually coherent with Alchemy-is-not-Magic and is more appropriate to future Occultist class.
the long spear is 2 bulk and 2 handed. So. rather unlikely for an Alchemist to use- The alchemist, even a str focused one, will have a hard time justifying the 2 bulk of that spear. The 2handed is relatively neglibile.
If they are the type of Alchemist who hands out all their goodies to everyone else so they'll never draw an item in battle. Then yeah. it is a pretty darn spiffy weapon for them! Enough that they probably won't mind not picking up higher martial weapons.
But for an who wishes to use Bombs or specialty items with semi regularity will be quite unlikely to use them. (it used to be 1 action to remove hand-free now. it is still 1 action to "rearm" your second hand--Much less any "draw" actions)
The Club. Morning Star, Mace. Spear. i mentioned are all 1 bulk as well. Which again, is at a premium for any Alch who wants to carry their goodies. Mace and Morning stars are rather expensive at creation-when Alchemist have less spendable money than other classes.
Club is fine.
Spear is also fine, even the bonus of throwing. Though those two actions use different stats.
Money and Weight issues go down as you level up though. and in particular any Alchemists who won't be using Quick Alchemy and hand out their goodies have even less bulk issues as they don't need to have ready access to their kit.
Alchemist area already way overloaded on weight and requirements of Hands (often wanting two free hands, or at least one). The cash and weight issues are lessened at later levels. but prior to the first stat boost might be problematic
Additionally, none of the D6 or D8 weapons have Finesse property. Which, if an Alchemist is into the bomb usage, they likely will prioritize (with int) and put str as the 3rd boost. So they likely will want Finesse. So they, like the rogues, likely would get stuck with D4 in some cases. or at least for a while.
It changes of course if they're the alchemist who doesn't care about bombs, or hands out all their goodies.
but.
it is a concern for the discussion of the thread.
----
I left out Crossbow as that portion of the discussion was referring to melee weapons. not ranged ones. Although, I personally find Crossbows a bit disappointing without the move reload ability.
That detail is why i mentioned "range is a bit better"
-----
I would like if they made "hand canons" sorta thing that were Alch items. be a fun way to modify bombs. more so if you can get a cone on it
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Alchemist Kit bulk really is it's own issue, it shouldn't be so much it impedes on other basic options just by itself.
IMHO Quick Alchemy shouldn't even need the full tools, or say each full kit has L or - component you can keep on yourself that suffices for Quick Alchemy
I'd just slap a Cone on a directional charge bomb modification, but something like 2-square-wide Line could be good Hand-Cannon material (still using Bombs somehow). My personal take on Fire-Arms is heavily Alchemist inclined, although I guess that isn't expected in Core even if they go that direction. Tinker Repeater X-Bow seems like it would be popular, and keeps it from being trivially available to everybody.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
At the d4 issue again
I see that d4s suck pretty much in comparisation with almost everything and I have especially a problem with it as my characters are often followers of desna
d4 starknife hurts - no damage increase from paladin or cleric special because its not a simple weapon, no extra accessability because its a common martial weapon
Followers of desna have literally no benefit from wielding their deities favored weapon which is kind of silly.
imo the starknife is because of this one of the best examples how much the d4 suck on some weapons
graystone wrote: What's a bummer is that the only monk ranged weapon is a d4 one [and that's AFTER you take a feat to use it]. :( It depends on which Feat you take. If you're willing to have a high INT, you can take the first Wizard Multiclass Feat and have a 1d8 Ranged Cantrip, and no ammunition to carry.
Yeh, okay, still probably not worth it. :(
Recent threads in Magic Items
|
