This might sound silly, but looking at the math for average monster statistics by level, I am actually fine with the monster math for attack bonuses, AC, and damage. Monsters are more accurate than PCs, but they also have lower damage and lower AC, so it balances out. Where things start to go wrong is Perception and skills, which, by the way, influences combat due to how initiative is Perception/skill-based.
According to page 327 of the rulebook, "If something improves or lowers chances of success, give a +1 circumstance bonus or –1 circumstance penalty," and "If you're not sure how difficult something significant should be, use a high-difficulty DC for the party's level." How well does this guideline hold up with a character's highest skills? The answer is "quite depressingly." As you can see, even for a character's peak skills, success chances dwindle starting at 4th level. A character's non-peak skills will lag behind even further, and armor check penalties will sack that even more. Granted, armor penalties dwindle as the levels rise, but so will skill success rates in general.
• 1st Level: 1 level + 4 ability modifier + 0 trained = +5 vs. high DC of 14, success chance 60% before armor penalties
• 2nd Level: 2 level + 4 ability modifier + 0 trained = +6 vs. high DC of 15, success chance 60% before armor penalties
• 3rd Level: 3 level + 4 ability modifier + 1 expert = +8 vs. high DC of 17, success chance 60% before armor penalties
• 4th Level: 4 level + 4 ability modifier + 1 expert = +9 vs. high DC of 19, success chance 55% before armor penalties
• 5th Level: 5 level + 4 ability modifier + 1 expert = +10 vs. high DC of 21, success chance 50% before armor penalties
• 6th Level: 6 level + 4 ability modifier + 1 expert = +11 vs. high DC of 22, success chance 50% before armor penalties
• 7th Level: 7 level + 4 ability modifier + 2 master = +13 vs. high DC of 23, success chance 55% before armor penalties
• 8th Level: 8 level + 4 ability modifier + 2 master = +14 vs. high DC of 24, success chance 55% before armor penalties
• 9th Level: 9 level + 4 ability modifier + 2 master = +15 vs. high DC of 26, success chance 50% before armor penalties
• 10th Level: 10 level + 5 ability modifier + 2 master = +17 vs. high DC of 27, success chance 55% before armor penalties
• 11th Level: 11 level + 5 ability modifier + 2 master = +18 vs. high DC of 28, success chance 55% before armor penalties
• 12th Level: 12 level + 5 ability modifier + 2 master = +19 vs. high DC of 30, success chance 50% before armor penalties
• 13th Level: 13 level + 5 ability modifier + 2 master = +20 vs. high DC of 32, success chance 45% before armor penalties
• 14th Level: 14 level + 5 ability modifier + 2 master = +21 vs. high DC of 33, success chance 45% before armor penalties
• 15th Level: 15 level + 6 ability modifier with potent item + 3 legendary = +24 vs. high DC of 35, success chance 50% before armor penalties
• 16th Level: 16 level + 6 ability modifier with potent item + 3 legendary = +25 vs. high DC of 36, success chance 50% before armor penalties
• 17th Level: 17 level + 6 ability modifier with potent item + 3 legendary = +26 vs. high DC of 38, success chance 45% before armor penalties
• 18th Level: 18 level + 6 ability modifier with potent item + 3 legendary = +27 vs. high DC of 39, success chance 45% before armor penalties
• 19th Level: 19 level + 6 ability modifier with potent item + 3 legendary = +28 vs. high DC of 40, success chance 45% before armor penalties
• 20th Level: 20 level + 7 ability modifier with potent item + 3 legendary = +30 vs. high DC of 41, success chance 50% before armor penalties
Again, the above is for peak skills. Non-peak skills will suffer even further.
What of monsters? Monsters generally have some unfair advantages: better peak skills, far better non-peak skills, and no pesky armor check penalties. When PCs go up against monsters' Perception/skill DCs, and effectively make contested rolls against monsters' Perception/skill DCs when rolling for initiative, this brutalizes any PC's odds of fairly competing with a monster. It is especially cruel in a situation wherein the GM calls for Acrobatics or Athletics for initiative, as pages 304 and 331 suggest might happen, because then PCs suffer their armor check penalty on initiative.
• A 1st-level PC has Perception +6 if they have Wisdom 18 and expert Perception. Untrained skills are -1 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +3), and trained skills are +1 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +5). Armor gives skill penalties to PCs, but not monsters and NPCs.
• A 1st-level drow fighter has Perception +5 (and darkvision), Acrobatics +6, Athletics +6, Stealth +6, other Dexterity-based skills +5, Intelligence-based skills +1, Wisdom-based skills +2, Charisma-based skills +2.
• A 1st-level ghoul has Perception +5 (and darkvision), Acrobatics +6, Athletics +6, Stealth +4, other Dexterity-based skills +6, Intelligence-based skills +5, Wisdom-based skills +6, Charisma-based skills +6.
• A 1st-level imp has Perception +5 (and greater darkvision), Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Deception +7, Religion +6, Strength-based skills +0, other Dexterity-based skills +4, other Intelligence-based skills +2, Wisdom-based skills +2, other Charisma-based skills +3.
• A 2nd-level PC has Perception +7 if they have Wisdom 18 and expert Perception. Untrained skills are +0 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +4), and trained skills are +2 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +6). Armor gives skill penalties to PCs, but not monsters and NPCs.
• A 2nd-level bugbear thug has Perception +6 (and darkvision and scent), Acrobatics +4, Athletics +5, Intimidation +6, Stealth +7, other Dexterity-based skills +3, Intelligence-based skills +2, Wisdom-based skills +2, other Charisma-based skills +1.
• A 2nd-level serpentfolk has Perception +6 (and darkvision and scent), Acrobatics +7, Arcana +7, Deception +9, Occultism +7, Society +7, Strength-based skills +1, other Dexterity-based skills +5, other Intelligence-based skills +6, Wisdom-based skills +4, other Charisma-based skills +5.
• A 2nd-level sinspawn has Perception +7 (and darkvision), Athletics +5, Stealth +7, Survival +7, Dexterity-based skills +4, Intelligence-based skills +2, other Wisdom-based skills +3, Charisma-based skills +3.
• A 3rd-level PC has Perception +8 if they have Wisdom 18 and expert Perception. Untrained skills are +1 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +5), trained skills are +3 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +7), and expert skills are +4 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +8). Armor gives skill penalties to PCs, but not monsters and NPCs.
• A 3rd-level dryad has Perception +8 (and low-light vision), Acrobatics +9, Athletics +7, Crafting +8 (+11 woodworking), Nature +10, Stealth +9, Survival +10, other Dexterity-based skills +4, other Intelligence-based skills +5, other Wisdom-based skills +5, Charisma-based skills +7.
• A 3rd-level ghast has Perception +8 (and darkvision), Acrobatics +9, Athletics +9, Stealth +9, other Dexterity-based skills +6, Intelligence-based skills +4, Wisdom-based skills +5, Charisma-based skills +6.
• A 3rd-level mercenary scout has Perception +10, Acrobatics +9, Athletics +8, Nature +8, Stealth +9, Survival +9, other Dexterity-based skills +5, Intelligence-based skills +1, Wisdom-based skills +3, Charisma-based skills +1.
• A 4th-level PC has Perception +9 if they have Wisdom 18 and expert Perception. Untrained skills are +2 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +6), trained skills are +4 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +8), and expert skills are +5 plus ability modifier (highest possible is +9). Armor gives skill penalties to PCs, but not monsters and NPCs.
• A 4th-level barghest has Perception +10 (and darkvision and scent), Acrobatics +11, Deception +11, Stealth +9, Strength-based skills +9, other Dexterity-based skills +6, Intelligence-based skills +6, Wisdom-based skills +5, other Charisma-based skills +7.
• A 4th-level green hag has Perception +10 (and darkvision), Arcana +11, Athletics +9, Deception +11, Stealth +11, other Dexterity-based skills +6, other Intelligence-based skills +6, Wisdom-based skills +5, other Charisma-based skills +7.
• A 4th-level vampire spawn rogue has Perception +9 (and darkvision), Acrobatics +11, Athletics +9, Intimidation +11, Society +9, Stealth +11, other Dexterity-based skills +9, other Intelligence-based skills +4, Wisdom-based skills +6, other Charisma-based skills +7.
Once more, note that the optimistic PC Perception numbers up there assume a maxed-out modifier via Wisdom 18 and expert Perception, and the high PC skill numbers likewise assume an ability score of 18. Obviously, PCs will have only so many ability scores at 18.
I just do not see how PCs are supposed to feel heroic when making Perception and skill checks if these are the odds that PCs are up against. Add critical failures (especially misinformation from critical failures on Recall Knowledge) to the mix, and PCs wind up as bumbling buffoons more often than not.
I have run through two iterations of The Lost Star, two iterations of In Pale Mountain's Shadow, two iterations of The Rose Street Revenge, and two iterations of Raiders of Shrieking Peak so far, and I have seen plenty of failures and critical failures. The amount of times I have have to come up with plausible-sounding misinformation on a critical failure on a knowledge check is irritating.
It was stated by a dev somewhere on another topic that Monster skill are too High and should take around a -2 or-3 everywhere (with some exception because some Monster should be stronger in some area than even the best optimized pc)
A 1st-level PC has Perception +6 if they have Wisdom 18 and expert Perception.
I don't think this is actually possible. Wis 18 at level 1 is only possible if Wis is the key ability of your class, ie if you play a Cleric or a Druid. Those classes aren't expert in Per.
Spoiler:
... And PCs are required by law to have high Dex, otherwise they are quickly vaporized by the über-legendary attack of level 1 opponents. Every level 1 opponent has +7 attack; if a PC has Dex 12, his AC (without shield) is at best 16, he's critted on 19-20 by any level 1 monster - that's not even counting the occasional Level+2 boss.
Having high Dex, and a high key ability, and a bit of Cha to use healing potions at level 1, I don't think any Level 1 PC may afford for more than Wis 12 - barring from Cleric and Druid, and Rogue whose key ability happen to be the AC ability. I don't think a level 1 Fighter or Ranger with Wis 14 will ever see the Level 2.
Your array of "peak skills" omit the item bonus. Some skill may have a +1 item bonus at level 2 (using expert tools) and +2 at level 7 (master tools), other skills can't because they don't use tools (eg Stealth), but you can dive into the magic items to find something (eg there's a level 10 item giving +3 Stealth, and a level 18 for +5). Diving into the useless items is boring as hell, but it seems that how you're supposed to play Path 2 - if you don't want to fail every check.
Spoiler:
Anyway the WBL are quite limitative. eg at level 9, you have one level 8 item, two level 7 item, one level 6 item and two level 5 item.
Your level 8 item is a +2 sword, one of your level 7 item is a +2 armor, and your level 6 item is something giving +2 Per (I don't remember the name, I just know it exist). All of this is required by law, otherwise your damages are too low, or the enemies dispatch you in a few lucky rolls, or you can't possibly succeed any Per check and always lose Init - remember, no class can have max Wis and master Per at the same time, your Per being level-appropriate is reliant on items.
So you have one level 7 item and two level 5 items. The level 7 item may be a master tool for a skill or some magical item for that skill. Hence you can have at most 1 skill with max bonus - including item bonus. looking at your table, that's 1 skill succeeding 60% of the time.
...Of course, another solution is not to dive into the list of 200+ useless magic item, not get any +skill item, and simply ignore skills, skill feat etc; just don't bother to chose your skills, skill feat etc. If the DM asks for a skill check, roll 1d20+Level and call it a day, you'll fail anyway - but at least you didn't lose your time diving into useless feats and items to define how you will fail.
Skill bonuses are assumed to have item bonuses baked in, just like other bonuses in the game. For peak skill bonus, you should add 2, 3, 4, 5 item bonuses at appropriate levels:
- +2 Item bonuses are level 5-6 (See Choker of Elocution and Clandestine Cloak)
- +3 Item bonuses are level 10 (See Daredevil Boots, Goggles of Night)
- +4 Item bonuses are level 13-14 (See Choker of Elocution, Cloak of the Bat, Belt of Giant Strength etc.)
- +5 Item bonuses are level 17-19 (see Messenger Ring, Greater Mutagens, Virtuoso's Instrument, Third Eye)
Skill bonuses are assumed to have item bonuses baked in, just like other bonuses in the game. For peak skill bonus, you should add 2, 3, 4, 5 item bonuses at appropriate levels:
- +2 Item bonuses are level 5-6 (See Choker of Elocution and Clandestine Cloak)
- +3 Item bonuses are level 10 (See Daredevil Boots, Goggles of Night)
- +4 Item bonuses are level 13-14 (See Choker of Elocution, Cloak of the Bat, Belt of Giant Strength etc.)
- +5 Item bonuses are level 17-19 (see Messenger Ring, Greater Mutagens, Virtuoso's Instrument, Third Eye)
In other words, skills are more dependent on the time you've spend searching in the magical items section than your proficiency level.
... At least it's consistent with weapons: your melee capability is more dependent on your sword than on your class and feats.
I have actually done some playtesting at levels 9-12, and at higher levels it becomes ever worse. Not only Stealth and Perception mechanics suffer, all skills are tuned in favor of monsters. As a result, you feel less and less competent when advancing in levels. Reducing monster skills by 2-3 won't save the day; some skills might need greater reduction, especially on CR 13+ monsters.
My group went a bit desperate about using Stealth, they are not trying it any more.
The thing is, why even bother with giving player characters "trained" ranks from Int or starting, if they are basically 100% useless by level 9 because everything in the game uses the very peak of a skill mod you can have as the bare average.
If doing an "average" task assumes:
A) Max ability mod for your level
B) max proficiency mod for your level
C) max item bonus mod for your level
Then, it's no longer "average".
For starters, it irks me that there isn't an "average" DC. It goes from low to high.
So, I propose instead of: trivial-easy-high-severe a much more streamlined easy-average-hard.
Then:
Imo, average DC for your level should be 10-13+level. This would be the check of a trained character with 10-16 ability mod for the skill.
Hard DC should be around 2-3 points lower than current high DC is.
Easy DC should be around 4 points lower than average DC
I just do not see how PCs are supposed to feel heroic when making Perception and skill checks if these are the odds that PCs are up against.
Yep, the monsters are godly, better than the PCs in every aspect. Every monster is super perceptive, there is never any variation.
So two things:
1) They need to reduce the skill bonuses of monsters. I believe attack bonus too. It seems like monster stats should be reduced by 2, maybe 3 in some cases.
2) Although having a baseline for skills is good, there needs to be much more customization and tweaking. Every level 4 creature should not have Perception +9/10.
Colette Brunel wrote:
The amount of times I have have to come up with plausible-sounding misinformation on a critical failure on a knowledge check is irritating.
I just don't use secret rolls. I don't think it's realistic to recall erroneous information that often.
Monster identification is punishing anyway because it takes an action. In a tactical system were all actions matter, it's a big deal.
It was stated by a dev somewhere on another topic that Monster skill are too High and should take around a -2 or-3 everywhere (with some exception because some Monster should be stronger in some area than even the best optimized pc)
If this is the case they should actually release an updated bestiary (probably not going to happen) or at least put it into the official errata.
It was stated by a dev somewhere on another topic that Monster skill are too High and should take around a -2 or-3 everywhere (with some exception because some Monster should be stronger in some area than even the best optimized pc)
If this is the case they should actually release an updated bestiary (probably not going to happen) or at least put it into the official errata.
What about saving throws and hit points?
after some posting of the (insane) numbers, I think it was Jason that commented that they checked back the monsters and found out that they were using an old proficiency formula (if you check skill feats like extra lore, i assume at some point 13level was legendary at some point and etc)
due to this, proficiency modifiers were 1-2 higher than normal.
since proficiency ties into almost everything, i assume it's 1-2 points out of everything.
I think he did say that there won't be an updated bestiary for this playtest due to some stuff like wanting them to check things out and etc, which i find hilariously bad, since EVERYTHING we playtest is basically against bloated numbers, skewering balance like nothing else does...
Yep, there are some underlying issues with how Monster skills, and especially Perception are calculated. Mark Siefter has acknowledged some issues with their back end math that exacerbated the situation. But, the issue appears to be deeper than that. Well see how they address this issue moving towards release. As written, they are bad and need to be fixed.
You can check out my thread posted in this forum addressing the issue. My method give a lot more viable numbers that should fix most of your listed issues., especially the most agregious violator Perception.
It was stated by a dev somewhere on another topic that Monster skill are too High and should take around a -2 or-3 everywhere (with some exception because some Monster should be stronger in some area than even the best optimized pc)
If this is the case they should actually release an updated bestiary (probably not going to happen) or at least put it into the official errata.
What about saving throws and hit points?
It looks like DCs, Saving Throws, AC, To Hit, Damage, and HP are all solid. It is skills and perception that are the worst.
In other words, skills are more dependent on the time you've spend searching in the magical items section than your proficiency level.
... At least it's consistent with weapons: your melee capability is more dependent on your sword than on your class and feats.
This sounds pretty classic Pathfinder to me. A 20th level fighter with a masterwork greatsword in 1E is not nearly as threatening to an end-game opponent as one with a +5 keen holy advancing greatsword, for example.
If doing an "average" task assumes:
A) Max ability mod for your level
B) max proficiency mod for your level
C) max item bonus mod for your level
Then, it's no longer "average".
Not only that, but it might not be possible to have A and B at the same time, such as how no class that can get max WIS also has the max Perception proficiency. You can only have A in one stat out of six, only have B in up to three skills out of sixteen, and probably can't have C in more than a few.
This sounds pretty classic Pathfinder to me. A 20th level fighter with a masterwork greatsword in 1E is not nearly as threatening to an end-game opponent as one with a +5 keen holy advancing greatsword, for example.
While that's true, they're still on the same general plane of power in PF1e, since ~20 additional damage is nice but it's also relatively minor at that level. In comparison, a PF2e fighter with a masterwork blade is doing 1/5 the damage of the other fighter.
This sounds pretty classic Pathfinder to me. A 20th level fighter with a masterwork greatsword in 1E is not nearly as threatening to an end-game opponent as one with a +5 keen holy advancing greatsword, for example.
While that's true, they're still on the same general plane of power in PF1e, since ~20 additional damage is nice but it's also relatively minor at that level. In comparison, a PF2e fighter with a masterwork blade is doing 1/5 the damage of the other fighter.
By also factoring in the chance to hit increase from the +5 weapon, the PF2 Fighter is doing at least 10x the damage, if not up to 20x. Some math guy could tell you exactly how much the +5 Sword improves a lv20 character, but it's insane.
Skill bonuses are assumed to have item bonuses baked in, just like other bonuses in the game. For peak skill bonus, you should add 2, 3, 4, 5 item bonuses at appropriate levels:
- +2 Item bonuses are level 5-6 (See Choker of Elocution and Clandestine Cloak)
- +3 Item bonuses are level 10 (See Daredevil Boots, Goggles of Night)
- +4 Item bonuses are level 13-14 (See Choker of Elocution, Cloak of the Bat, Belt of Giant Strength etc.)
- +5 Item bonuses are level 17-19 (see Messenger Ring, Greater Mutagens, Virtuoso's Instrument, Third Eye)
This is straight up b$+&&@#+ if it's the case. They need to change this ASAP. Why? Because they straight up stated several times they wanted characters to function without mandatory items. What's the point of claiming that they're removing the "Big Six" only to make PC's be on the expected curve by requiring them to have skill items?
That's something that must change asap. If you get an item to give you bonuses on some area, you better be way above average on it! Not having the item just so you don't fall behind. 70% chance of success for your best skill buffed by an item is not something to be unexpected.
I'm reposting this from another thread:
The rules are advancing monster checks by about +35 over 20 levels (assuming +20 from level, +7 from ability*, +3 from proficiency, and +5 from equipment)... *Armor replaces your ability modifier with an equipment modifier at the cost of up to 4 TAC. It is noteworthy that many creatures also have reduced TACs comperable to the TAC penalty imposed by armor.
Meanwhile most characters can only achieve a +29 to +31 over 20 levels in checks they invest in (assuming +20 from level, +4 or +5 from ability, +0 to +1 from proficiency, and +5 from equipment). With their specialty hitting +35 (assuming as above), and a few dumped proficiencies sitting between +18 to +25 (assuming +20 from level, -1 to +3 from ability, -2 to +0 from proficiency, and +1 to +2 from equipment).
+18 represents neglecting a proficiency as much as possible, +25 represents minimal investment, +30ish represents a significant investment, and +35 requires specialization.
As such I think monsters should have been built in the +30 range instead of the +35. So that the specialist characters can shine, but the minimally invested characters can still contribute. The Weak and Elite adjustment should be used to scale up and down from the middle; instead of needing the apply the Weak Adjustments to multiple times to bring anything down to the PCs actual level of proficiency, and the elite adjustment making any creature far surpass the values appropriate for their level.
On a pedantic note, a Human Cleric or Druid can have Perception +6 at 1st level by getting the Alertness General Feat.
More generally, it's worthwhile noting that assuming maximal Item Bonus on Skills has a huge issue in that many Skills don't have maximal Skill Items available at the minimum 'expected level' and often not anywhere close. This makes using it as an assumption hugely problematic.
And that's not even getting into the whole thread I did on the math assuming optimal PC stats.
Pretty muc this. I recently ran a level 10 test with an elite stone golem. Pretty muchh no-one could make the DC34 athletics check allowing it to trample people three times per round.
I don't think this is actually possible. Wis 18 at level 1 is only possible if Wis is the key ability of your class, ie if you play a Cleric or a Druid. Those classes aren't expert in Per.
It is possible with a human with General Training for Alertness.
Gaterie wrote:
Your array of "peak skills" omit the item bonus.
I omitted those because they are generally quite expensive, and skill items being mandatory is bad game design.
