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For what it's worth, in the first level adventure of Doomsday Dawn the shield block was so good my DM was mad. It was especially good against creatures that deal low amounts of damage with debilitating effects added on if it does damage, ie poison. I haven't looked sufficiently at the Bestiary to know if there are similar monsters at higher levels, who do little damage but have paralysis or very damaging poisons added on.
I do think shield block is meant to be used frequently, though, since if you look at the Fighter, they get one feat (Quick Shield Block) that specifically allows them to shield block once for free each turn.
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I'm confused as to how people are interpreting the RAW to state that a shield can only ever take one dent at a time, when the RAW explicitly states a shield can take two dents with sufficient damage?
The part that states it can take 2 dents is an example of how items take dents (aka no more than two at a time) and used shields as example. Maybe a poorly thought out example. Read this carefully (I bolded the important part):
You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken.
The shield can only ever take 1 dent at a time from the use of the shield block reaction because the shield block reaction only forces the shield to take the damage that it blocked (up to it's hardness). This is not ambiguous in the slightest.
There are currently no rules for sundering items directly, but presumably unattended shields/weapons might be attacked.
I suspect that the wording for Shield Block will change next update to match the wording of Construct Armor (see Animated Objects in the Bestiary). Which will be a solid nerf to shields, but also make their mechanics line up with the Item Damage example (as well as the examples given for damaging hazards).
I hope that once we're giving feedback using the 'correct' mechanics, Paizo will seriously reconsider their chosen Hardness values. If straight up doubling everything's Hardness isn't workable; perhaps Shields could use the 'Item' value instead of the 'Thin Item' value. Nearly doubling its hardness, and allowing more of them to survive contact with a stiff breeze (or heaven forbid, an adamantine weapon).
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I'm hoping this goes one of two ways: either shields are seen as a showstopping move that can do amazing things but only once or twice per combat (i.e. huge damage reduction but get dented and broken easily) or shields should be usable basically every round as a defensive buff that doesn't otherwise break the game.
I'm starting to wonder why shields need to get dented and broken at all. Is damage reduction in exchange for an action and not being able to use the highest base die weapons really 100% worth it at all times?
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I'm hoping this goes one of two ways: either shields are seen as a showstopping move that can do amazing things but only once or twice per combat (i.e. huge damage reduction but get dented and broken easily) or shields should be usable basically every round as a defensive buff that doesn't otherwise break the game.
I'm starting to wonder why shields need to get dented and broken at all. Is damage reduction in exchange for an action and not being able to use the highest base die weapons really 100% worth it at all times?
Its not just the damage reduction. The main use of shields is the bump to AC you can always have on hand. The DR is more of a bonus. At least thats what it feels like now.
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After the last update, here's how I interpret shield block :
Imagine you have a 3 hardness shield.
A Goblin attacks you for 2 damages. You shield block. Your shield takes 2 damages, you take 0 damages. Damages to your shield are erased after the attack is resolved.
Another attacks you for 5 damages. You shield block. Your shield takes 3 damages, gets 1 dent, and you take 2 damages. Damages to your shield are erased after the attack is resolved.
A third Goblin attacks you for 10 damages. You shield block. Your shield takes 3 damages, gets 1 dent, and you take 7 damages. Damages to your shield are erased after the attack is resolved.
After the last update, here's how I interpret shield block :
Imagine you have a 3 hardness shield.
A Goblin attacks you for 2 damages. You shield block. Your shield takes 2 damages, you take 0 damages. Damages to your shield are erased after the attack is resolved.
Another attacks you for 5 damages. You shield block. Your shield takes 3 damages, gets 1 dent, and you take 2 damages. Damages to your shield are erased after the attack is resolved.
A third Goblin attacks you for 10 damages. You shield block. Your shield takes 3 damages, gets 1 dent, and you take 7 damages. Damages to your shield are erased after the attack is resolved.
This is how I interpret it as well. This is also the most balanced interpretation imo as well. Hopefully we will get full clarification soon, but if we don't I'll be using this interpretation during our playtest.
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Page 309. Shield Block / Reaction
You snap your shield into place to deflect a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken. See page 175 for rules on dented and broken items.This is the SPECIFIC Action here and the rules that apply, the only reason Dented and Broken Rules are refrenced is to indicate what Dents and the Broken Condition are. The Shield can only EVER take damage up to it own Hardness, it's spelled out VERY clearly right here.
ALSO NOTE: It mentions NOTHING here about a Shield Block destroying a Shield.
In the Twitch stream tonight (Aug 31) with designer Stephen Radney McFarland, he clarified that a shield can take multiple dents with the same blow. I asked the question,
“A fighter with a wooden shield of 3 hardness performs a shield block, and is hit for 100 damage. (1) how much damage does the fighter take, and (2) how many dents does the shield take? “ his answer was that the fighter takes 97 damage and the shield is destroyed, as in “took multiple dents at once”.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shield blocks really aren't very good then, are they?
GM: "The guard fires an arrow at you. Nine damage."
Fighter: "Wait, I block it with my shield!"
GM: "Your shield is shattered into tiny pieces - lose 2 AC - and you take six points of damage."
“A fighter with a wooden shield of 3 hardness performs a shield block, and is hit for 100 damage. (1) how much damage does the fighter take, and (2) how many dents does the shield take? “ his answer was that the fighter takes 97 damage and the shield is destroyed, as in “took multiple dents at once”.
... Waaaaaaaaat ? B-b-but... It's stated that the shield only takes damages up to its Hardness, so it shouldn't take the extra 97 damages... should it...?
At level 18, with the best level 18 shields, monsters of the same level causing min damage will both dent your shield and usually deal some damage to the wielder. So the shield block reaction becomes worse as you level up... That's not right at all.
Have you taken into account that Legendary items get +6 to their hardness ? I don't know if this helps though, I still have to see it in play.
Page 309. Shield Block / Reaction
You snap your shield into place to deflect a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to its Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken. See page 175 for rules on dented and broken items.This is the SPECIFIC Action here and the rules that apply, the only reason Dented and Broken Rules are refrenced is to indicate what Dents and the Broken Condition are. The Shield can only EVER take damage up to it own Hardness, it's spelled out VERY clearly right here.
ALSO NOTE: It mentions NOTHING here about a Shield Block destroying a Shield.
In the Twitch stream tonight (Aug 31) with designer Stephen Radney McFarland, he clarified that a shield can take multiple dents with the same blow. I asked the question,
“A fighter with a wooden shield of 3 hardness performs a shield block, and is hit for 100 damage. (1) how much damage does the fighter take, and (2) how many dents does the shield take? “ his answer was that the fighter takes 97 damage and the shield is destroyed, as in “took multiple dents at once”.
To be fair, he also said the shield takes "at least one dent". He said as a GM he would have destroyed a shield because the damage was so extremely high above the shield's hardness. He never said the shield takes two, three or 33 dents.
Sounded to me that he wasn't too sure (or not willing/allowed to share) about the RAI on shields.
His answer wasn't specific at all, unfortunately.
I've had another look and it isn't quite as bad as I thought. But still pretty bad. Damage varies depending on if the artack does damage only or damage plus poison or some kind of conditional effect. Focusing on pure damage effects:
** spoiler omitted **
The damage-hardness-comparisson seems fair. At level 18 the party should have more than enough resources and possibilities to fix some dents in a shield quickly. Not so much at level 1.
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I really like the feel of this action. From my personal use of shields through SCA and Larp-like games, It functions very similar. When a person strikes the shield, an amount of force is transferred into the shields face potentially denting it. Once the material has been dented, thereby compressing the material, the force is transferred into the object supporting the shield. I.E. in the form of most humans, your arm. The arm then is thrown with the force of the blow allowing the weapon to hit you.
Using this representation, the shield block action seems spot on.
But... What if they added a feat or static bonus that adds your str mod to the hardness specifically for the shield block action?
Something like: When taking the shield block action, the PC adds his/her strength modifier(Min 1) to the amount of damage absorbed by hardness. The damage does not increase the Materials actual hardness and the shield gains dents as normal.
So when a monster hits you with 10 dam
PC blocks with wooden shield absorbing 3pts of damage at which point the force is transferred into his arm.
The feat kicks in giving his str bonus of 3 to make an additional 3 pts negated.
Leaving the 4 damage to continue into his shoulder.
The shield would take 1 dent as normal, but the 3 damage negated by the feat would just be negated.
The question I have is, If my interpretation is true, wouldn't armor also offer a hardness defense against attacks?
If armor already has this mechanic, great! I haven't read the whole rule book yet, but plan on doing so soon.
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I think that's a GREAT idea!
Shield Focus
Feat 1
General Feat
When you use a Reaction to Shield Block, your Shield gains a Conditional Bonus to its Hardness equal to your Strength Modifier.
Greater Shield Focus
Feat 4
General Feat
PreReq : Shield Focus
Treat all Shields you wield as having double their initial Hardness. (Ex. Light Shield = 6 Hardness, Heavy = 10 Hardness) This Hardness Stacks with the Conditional Bonus from Shield Focus.
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To be fair, he also said the shield takes "at least one dent". He said as a GM he would have destroyed a shield because the damage was so extremely high above the shield's hardness. He never said the shield takes two, three or 33 dents.
Sounded to me that he wasn't too sure (or not willing/allowed to share) about the RAI on shields.
His answer wasn't specific at all, unfortunately.
More specific than we have had, however, so I’m going with it until a dev says otherwise, better or ill. I do better like the interpretation of “one dent per hit”, however, because it means you get at least three (or four with a Sturdy Shield) dents before being smashed to bits. There’s a scene from 13th Warrior that I always liked where a Viking warrior has his shield smashed, he grabs another from a nearby friend, and keeps fighting. I’m cool with shields that are made to be destroyed and tossed, but tossing after EVERY USE (as in most cases with nonmagical wood and steel ones) is just impractical in a game.
All right, finally listened to the stream. (At about the 46 minute mark.) Gonna sum it up. (Also going to post it in more than one place because I really don't want more misinformation spreading.)
Question: A fighter uses a wooden shield and blocks a 100 point hit. How much damage does the fighter take and how many dents does the shield take?
1) Stephen decisively says the fighter takes 97 damage; this is consistent with the common reading of the rules.
2) "Now the shield is gonna take AT LEAST one dent, and if I were the GM, though this isn't really codified, it would just shatter." Slight paraphrasing there.
3) He justifies this by saying the point is moot; if you are using such a low level shield you probably don't have 97 hit points and are just dead anyway.
4) "But yeah, you'd take AT LEAST one dent."
5) Dan asks Stephen if that would be dependent on the GM. At this point Stephen is clearly thinking through it out loud but again that would be him as the GM.
6) Stephen says "if it was a critical hit it would be two dents." There is nothing in the rulebook that supports this AFAIK.
7) He says "I think there's also a thing where if you hit double that damage threshold you're gonna take 2 dents as well." He's almost certainly referencing page 175, but as discussed page 175 doesn't gel (or technically contradict) with what the shield block reaction says. Also he's expressed enough uncertainty by now that taking this as gospel seems rather shaky.
8) "So the shield would be destroyed, you would be dead... Just don't take that much damage at that level with a wooden shield." That's his final point. It seems clear that he's too hung up on the extreme amount of damage and is dropping into "What is the most cinematic for me as GM" rather than actually answering the question.
9) In conclusion: This is completely inconclusive. Next time we get Paizo answering questions, let's use a more realistic example, like a fighter with a light wooden shield (hardness 3) blocking 10 damage.
10) I'm sticking to "one dent per block max" for now.
9) In conclusion: This is completely inconclusive. Next time we get Paizo answering questions, let's use a more realistic example, like a fighter with a light wooden shield (hardness 3) blocking 10 damage.
10) I'm sticking to "one dent per block max" for now.
If you use that example, he’d likely say, “that’s in the book” and leave it at that - that’s why I changed it up.
Boy, getting a definitive answer that satisfies everyone is harder than pulling teeth!I’m still going with the other interpretation, because he’s pretty clear on the “takes at least one dent” to me.
I don't know how they didn't come here to put a definitive answer... We are talking this almost 1 month...
None dev came here... We already asked twice in the stream, and again, no definitive answer...
I saw an interesting Forged In Fire episode today. The August 28 season 5 episode 25 was titled The Sengese, because the final weapon forged was a Sengese Throwing Blade.
The first test was the kill test, where each blade sliced a goat carcass in half. The second test was the strength test, where each blade had to chop at a hide shield on a wooden frame to see how much damage the edge took.
Yet these blades had worked perfectly well in cutting the carcasses. They had also penetrated the shields, but did less visible damage. Even though the shields would have counted by page 354 as thin leather with Hardness 2 and would counted as "dented" after a few strikes, they were still solid enough to break the blades.
This was actual blades hitting actual shields, so Hardness ought to be consistent with this, after being simplified for playability.
9) In conclusion: This is completely inconclusive. Next time we get Paizo answering questions, let's use a more realistic example, like a fighter with a light wooden shield (hardness 3) blocking 10 damage.
10) I'm sticking to "one dent per block max" for now.
If you use that example, he’d likely say, “that’s in the book” and leave it at that - that’s why I changed it up.
Boy, getting a definitive answer that satisfies everyone is harder than pulling teeth!I’m still going with the other interpretation, because he’s pretty clear on the “takes at least one dent” to me.
"At least one dent" is technically accurate with either interpretation. We all agree that the shield in that example takes at least one dent-- but that also means it COULD be exactly one dent. But everything about it taking 2 dents or being outright destroyed on the hit seems to either be GM fiat or him using rules that have no basis in the current rulebook. (Such as critical hits giving more dents, for example. That might have been in the rules at some point during the development but it sure isn't now.)
And you might be right that using the example I suggested would get another non-answer as well since it is fairly close to what the book has. I say "fairly" close because the page 175 example still doesn't specify HOW the shield took that damage, and the rules as written on page 309 mean it can't take that much damage on a shield block.
Maybe asking what happens when a steel shield takes 12 damage?