I have some concerns about the Monk


Classes

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Scarab Sages

So I get that Pathfinder 2E wants to boil down a class to it's most 'essential components' and then allow feats for you to flavor it back up. That was the intended design idea. I get that. So I'm not too mad that Rangers lost spellcasting, because, if you had to describe Ranger in two words it was 'wilderness warrior' and spellcasting didn't enter into the equation. You want a ranger with spellcasting? Archtype Cleric (or presumably Druid when the full version comes out.) I 100% understand that.

But what was the design decision behind not giving Monks ANY weapon training beyond punching and kicking? Like, I get it, Monks are unarmed, unarmored warriors, sure. And yes, there is a first level class feat that gives them monk weapon training, but that's for monk weapons only.

Here's my deal: Pathfinder has hammered it in, time and time again, that every character should have melee and ranged capabilities. They don't have to be fantastic, but they should be present. Level 1 Kyra has a sword, sling, AND fire-beam. But the monk has . . . nothing. No ranged training and no training in any other weapons.

I'm not asking for much, just simple weapon training so my monk can chuck a javalin at a flying enemy at level 1. Or shoot a crossbow. Listen, eastern Monks were where we got the concept of masters of zen archery, some could do crazy things with spears and hook swords, all sorts of crazy stuff. I'm just asking for a ranged option, that's all.


Yep, Monastic Weaponry needs to be redesigned, and basic weapon proficiencies should be granted baseline.

This is one of my design issues listed here.

Scarab Sages

Another issue my friend and I figured out together is . . . Exactly how does Wind Step Work vs. the rogue's Cloud Step? Monk one is level 6, Rogue is 16. Now, granted, the rogue ability lets you walk on air, but it specifically 'doesn't trigger pressure plates.' Does that mean Wind Step does? What if you walk across a disguised pit trap with wind step? Do you fall in, but if you walk across some tree branch that just happened to fall across a ravine wind step works?


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Though I would counter that the downside of choosing to use a weapon you aren't proficient with isn't that harsh, right? Rather than get the Level+1 you get Level-1. If I had a monk, I'd just grab a sling and go for it.


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I really think Ki Strike should be given to the monk by default, much like how the Paladin gets the Lay on Hands power by default.

Even if you're a wholly mundane martial artist, the whole concept of "project energy to hit harder and more accurately" exists in mundane real martial arts, so we can keep our monks grounded by not selecting other ki powers, but everybody should get that one.


I do feel like monks need something. Maybe Ki Strike. Maybe something else, but as it stands they are basically naked people who get one okay ability as a feat and the ability to combine their first two hits to overcome a little bit of damage reduction, and in exchange get no weapon proficiencies and turn into peasants if they put on leather armor.

Compared with monks in any other system, that's pretty substandard.

Scarab Sages

Grimcleaver wrote:

I do feel like monks need something. Maybe Ki Strike. Maybe something else, but as it stands they are basically naked people who get one okay ability as a feat and the ability to combine their first two hits to overcome a little bit of damage reduction, and in exchange get no weapon proficiencies and turn into peasants if they put on leather armor.

Compared with monks in any other system, that's pretty substandard.

Note that Ki Strike is 1 action, so you can do two actions and still get your two hits in, so that's pretty good. Double move plus two hits, stand and move plus two hits, if you are multiclassed CAST SPELL plus two hits.

Heck, if they go all out, at level 1 they can strike 4 times. Nat 20 always hits!


VampByDay wrote:

Note that Ki Strike is 1 action, so you can do two actions and still get your two hits in, so that's pretty good. Double move plus two hits, stand and move plus two hits, if you are multiclassed CAST SPELL plus two hits.

Heck, if they go all out, at level 1 they can strike 4 times. Nat 20 always hits!

Really good, but also resulting in a class that feels a heck of a lot like what you'd want a monk to feel like--which is a sign the design is headed in a positive direction.


VampByDay wrote:

Note that Ki Strike is 1 action, so you can do two actions and still get your two hits in, so that's pretty good. Double move plus two hits, stand and move plus two hits, if you are multiclassed CAST SPELL plus two hits.

Heck, if they go all out, at level 1 they can strike 4 times. Nat 20 always hits!

Really good, but also resulting in a class that feels a heck of a lot like what you'd want a monk to feel like--which is a sign for me that the design is headed in a positive direction.


VampByDay wrote:
Note that Ki Strike is 1 action, so you can do two actions and still get your two hits in, so that's pretty good.

I think you're confusing Ki Strike (which is a free action triggered by an attack roll using an unarmed strike which costs 1 spell point and gives +1 to hit) with Flurry of Blows (which is one action to make 2 unarmed attacks).

Scarab Sages

PossibleCabbage wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Note that Ki Strike is 1 action, so you can do two actions and still get your two hits in, so that's pretty good.
I think you're confusing Ki Strike (which is a free action triggered by an attack roll using an unarmed strike which costs 1 spell point and gives +1 to hit) with Flurry of Blows (which is one action to make 2 unarmed attacks).

Sorry, I meant flurry of blows. Posted that last night when I was tired. Original post was how the flurry of blows ‘only’ lets You combine two attacks and my point was that it was also a single action.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My group has started playing the Doomsday Dawn adventure, and we're most of the way through the first scenario. At least so far, our monk is cleaning the heck up with flurry of blows, doing far and away the most damage - and frankly, I see relatively few ways for anyone else to catch up as time goes on. I think the monk is doing just fine for himself.

I do understand the desire for a ranged weapon, but as has already been pointed out, nonproficiency just isn't that much of a problem. Just grab a bow anyway, that -2 isn't going to hurt you much.


VampByDay wrote:
Sorry, I meant flurry of blows. Posted that last night when I was tired. Original post was how the flurry of blows ‘only’ lets You combine two attacks and my point was that it was also a single action.

We had this come up in our game and I took time to look over the ability. It says:

Make two unarmed Strikes. If both hit the same creature, combine their damage and enhancements for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses.

That's two strikes. Each strike is the use of an action. If it were worded 'spend an action to make two unarmed attacks' I would interpret it the way you are. As written it seems like what it does is combine together the damage from two attacks so that you can power through resistances easier.


Viscount K wrote:


I do understand the desire for a ranged weapon, but as has already been pointed out, nonproficiency just isn't that much of a problem. Just grab a bow anyway, that -2 isn't going to hurt you much.

If you are fully DEX-based, sure.

If you are STR-based, then it gets dodgy.


Flurry of Blows specifically costs one action, though.


Grimcleaver wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Sorry, I meant flurry of blows. Posted that last night when I was tired. Original post was how the flurry of blows ‘only’ lets You combine two attacks and my point was that it was also a single action.

We had this come up in our game and I took time to look over the ability. It says:

Make two unarmed Strikes. If both hit the same creature, combine their damage and enhancements for the purpose of resistances and weaknesses.

That's two strikes. Each strike is the use of an action. If it were worded 'spend an action to make two unarmed attacks' I would interpret it the way you are. As written it seems like what it does is combine together the damage from two attacks so that you can power through resistances easier.

But Flurry is marked up as being a 1 Action Activity you can use once a round, so that overrides the Action cost of the individual Strikes.


Monks should be renamed "Goku" in this version.

At level 13, the one i build can ki blast, wall jump, fly for lets of minutes,heal himself a lot of times for 11d8+wis each time.

And on a side note, Ki Strike doesnt have a cost. You can use it always as long as you can do a free verbal action (in other words, you can speak). Ki strike gives you access to ki pool, but doesnt have a cost associated both on the ability or the power itself.

Sincerely, the monk is too much anime... and more concerning, the "animeish" options are by far the best options by the current rule system. That said, he is one of the most powerful classes, specially if you get every single ki power you can get. You have a lot of spell points and actually is a better caster than a multiclassesed mage and probably better at many things than a full classed mage.

I just did a lv 13 figher with mage multiclass and the monk is superior in every aspect, that fighter with spells didnt got better in a single aspect aside from detect magic. (even the ranged option of a cantrip is better as a monk cause of huge move and ability to teleport out of battle if needed, the only saving grace for the fighter was the possibility of getting a bow, but since magic weapons rules above all, at the current system changing weapons is like lowering your damage output by half or worse in many situations)

If they redo the damage system, maybe a more mundane monk could be better, ATM, even if dont invest heavily on wis, its better to be a ki monk and fly, teleport, ki blast, heal.


RafaelBraga wrote:


I just did a lv 13 figher with mage multiclass and the monk is superior in every aspect, that fighter with spells didnt got better in a single aspect aside from detect magic.

Seems hard for me to believe, wouldn't the Fighter have better ability score economy (given that they only need 14 DEX for max AC, whereas the Monk always needs as much DEX as possible) and the MC Wizard grants them better DCs than Ki Blast could have because of Expert/Master Spellcasting proficiencies.

Combined with the aforementioned better ability score economy for higher INT, seems like it should actually be closer than what you are saying.


Andy Brown wrote:

But Flurry is marked up as being a 1 Action Activity you can use once a round, so that overrides the Action cost of the individual Strikes.

Okay now I'm concerned that I've been running it wrong. Is there some system for figuring out when something's a 1 Action Activity that I've missed? Maybe I'm just not grokking the formating.


Grimcleaver wrote:
Andy Brown wrote:

But Flurry is marked up as being a 1 Action Activity you can use once a round, so that overrides the Action cost of the individual Strikes.

Okay now I'm concerned that I've been running it wrong. Is there some system for figuring out when something's a 1 Action Activity that I've missed? Maybe I'm just not grokking the formating.

Flurry of Blows indicates that it is a one-action activity because it is prefaced with the "this requires one action" symbol, much like how Sudden Charge is prefaced by "this requires two actions" symbol or Whirlwind Strike is prefaced by the "this requires three actions" symbol.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Flurry of Blows indicates that it is a one-action activity because it is prefaced with the "this requires one action" symbol, much like how Sudden Charge is prefaced by "this requires two actions" symbol or Whirlwind Strike is prefaced by the "this requires three actions" symbol.

That's those diamond shaped bulletpoints that show up every once in a while, aren't they? I've looked right past those every time. Crazy. Thanks for the catch you guys!


Secret Wizard wrote:
RafaelBraga wrote:


I just did a lv 13 figher with mage multiclass and the monk is superior in every aspect, that fighter with spells didnt got better in a single aspect aside from detect magic.

Seems hard for me to believe, wouldn't the Fighter have better ability score economy (given that they only need 14 DEX for max AC, whereas the Monk always needs as much DEX as possible) and the MC Wizard grants them better DCs than Ki Blast could have because of Expert/Master Spellcasting proficiencies.

Combined with the aforementioned better ability score economy for higher INT, seems like it should actually be closer than what you are saying.

End values of both(at level 13)

Fighter/mage
Str 20
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 18
Wis 14
Cha 12 (for roleplaying, could be put in wis or dex)

Monk
Str 20
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 10

Both have 190HP with toughness

Base saves without magic items:

Fighter: F+17 R+15 W+16(with Iron Will)

Monk: F+18 (i chose master fortitude with path to perfection) R+17 W+18

Monk has 12SP, Whroleness of Body, Ki Blast, Abundant Step, Wind Jump with all heigthned to 7th level (12d4 Ki Blast, 11d8+4 WoB, 15ft Dimensional Step, Can fly for 55ft and acrobatic DC30 to keep flying (current at +23 acrobatics, will be +27 at level 15 meaning almost perfect flying, if he falls he get no damage due to catfall and daredevil boots, at level 15, just due catfall)

Fighter has 2/2/1/1 for sell slots. So a total of 6 casts... at levels 1-4, monk get at least 6 casts (since most powers use 2 SP, but some use just 1) all at 7th level potency.

The monk still got some options left for some stances, stance strikes and othe stuff to do while not using SP. I chose the Tiger Stance path, but anyone of them could work.

The fighter is master of Perception but have an overall lower perception since the monk is expert with higher wisdom.

After build the two, i would probably say the multiclass system is crap cause even at level 13, i used most of my character options to praticly dont have casting power at all. That said, i think a speciallized wizard, specially on the damage department, would fall very far behind non-spell slot based classes. To me te Spell Power system is a much better system overall and should be the stardard casting system, it would as a side effect make multiclass a lot easier to balance(specially if we go back to the BETTER level based multiclass, instead of this BAD feat based multiclass).

This new system proved to me the most dipping/gimmicky system ever... its like you just pick it not when you want to play a multiclass but something that you pick when you visualize a very powerful powercombo beteween some cherrypicked abilities.

The only thing the fighter/mage was good was recognizing spells... but that was a effect of arcana skill, not the wizard multiclass.


Seems like the Fighter's AC should be 3 points higher than the Monk, given that the Monk would be at 28 AC and the Fighter at 31 AC. That's a non-trivial difference and what I was referring to when I mentioned the Fighter had better ability score economy – granted though, Bracers of Armor is pretty affordable, so the Monk would likely be at 2 points lower for practical effects. But that's still significant in a world where crits matter.

Not to mention Fighter's have legendary proficiency with weapons at that level, and Expert Spellcasting for +1 DC over the Monk.

Magic items could help the monk recover AC, but that's part of the budget they are spending that the Fighter's free to spend elsewhere.

With this being said, I think 13th level is a pretty Monk-favored level for this comparison.

If you compared at 12th level, the Monk would be FOUR points of AC below the Fighter, which is pretty terrible. Furthermore, the Monk's Powers would be 6th level, while the Fighter would still have access to a 4th level spell slot, which is comparable in power but much more flexible.

If you compared at 14th level, the Fighter would have access to a 5th level spell slot, another 3rd level spell slot out of Arcane Breadth, as well as a chance to pick up several types of relevant class feats. Meanwhile, Ki Monk is only getting access to Wild Winds Gust which is pretty redundant with the rest of the kit, even if it's pretty neat.

Dunno, I'm not sold on one of the options being strictly better than the other. A lot of the low level spells the Fighter MC Wiz could get could be more relevant than the abilities of the Ki Monk... and on the meanwhile, the Fighter MC Wiz is better at combat than the Monk due to higher attack and much higher AC.


My monk AC is 31.

+13 level, +2 master, +3 dex, +3 bracer.

The spells mus be prepared at their respective level, meaning that their overall power is very low and you basicly have 1 use of each... wich is not THAT bad since some dont need level scaling.

But the SP give the flexibility to cast that 6 spells you need when you need. At level 15 all of them will power up again for increased damage, healing and distance.

The flexibility of the monk is even higher than the flexibility of the fighter/mage. It will also increase every new book that a new option of ki power is released.

In combat, you optimum damage is flurry+ki blast.

You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4 without the MAP.

That said tried to opmize my fighter at every choice, i just build the monk as a ki monk on the fly, since my original choice was to do a stance style dancer... but the "open" trait dont allow and worse still, every single ki choice is stronger and scale exponentially the more choices you take.


My biggest complaint about the Monk is that if you focus on ki powers (like you recommend) you miss out on some of the other interesting abilities. They're not as good as the powers, but it would still be nice to deflect arrows or flying kick from time to time.


RafaelBraga wrote:

My monk AC is 31.

+13 level, +2 master, +3 dex, +3 bracer.

Then the Fighter has +3 magic armor, so it's AC is 34.

Quote:
But the SP give the flexibility to cast that 6 spells you need when you need. At level 15 all of them will power up again for increased damage, healing and distance.

Heightened lower level powers are weaker than equal level spells (that is, a 3rd level power heighted to 6 vs. a 6th level spell.)

At 15th level, Fighters get Improved Flexibility, so they have a lot of tricks of their own.

Quote:
You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4 without the MAP.

How are your attacks dealing 1d10 base damage btw?

Anyway, I think you are willfully ignoring all the benefits of the Fighter, so I don't think I can help. The Fighter is better at martial combat than the Monk, and has less powerful abilities but with better accuracy in terms of spells. The Monk has more powerful abilities but worse combat stats. Not many ways around it. Nice talk I guess?

Scarab Sages

Secret Wizard wrote:


Quote:
You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4 without the MAP.

How are your attacks dealing 1d10 base damage btw?

Anyway, I think you are willfully ignoring all the benefits of the Fighter, so I don't think I can help. The Fighter is better at martial combat than the Monk, and has less powerful abilities but with better accuracy in terms of spells. The Monk has more powerful abilities but worse combat stats. Not many ways around it. Nice talk I guess?

The Dragon style feat makes your unarmed strikes deal d10. Spends an action to get into at the start of combat Unless you take Stance Savant at level 12 (a level where there are no ki power feats.)

I just have a problem with RafaelBraga combative attitude. I dunno, maybe I'm reading it wrong, and I'm sorry if I am, but it seems like he's just saying "Build a monk this way. Period." Personally I have stated out a brawling-type Goblin Monk that I'd really like to play that completely eshews ki stuff and is more about consistent mobility and not losing all his spell points in one or two battles. But it sounds like neither of us have actually played either character so right now we are monks fighting on salt plains just comparing numbers.


Dragon Stance attacks do do 1d10 base, but they're neither Agile or Finesse, which makes it a poor fit for Dex Monks, although the posted Monk is Str-based. It's also Tiger Stance, which is 1d8 base, which also doesn't work, there is a 1d12 attack you can do with it, but that's not the same.


Secret Wizard wrote:
RafaelBraga wrote:

My monk AC is 31.

+13 level, +2 master, +3 dex, +3 bracer.

Then the Fighter has +3 magic armor, so it's AC is 34.

Quote:
But the SP give the flexibility to cast that 6 spells you need when you need. At level 15 all of them will power up again for increased damage, healing and distance.

Heightened lower level powers are weaker than equal level spells (that is, a 3rd level power heighted to 6 vs. a 6th level spell.)

At 15th level, Fighters get Improved Flexibility, so they have a lot of tricks of their own.

Quote:
You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4 without the MAP.

How are your attacks dealing 1d10 base damage btw?

Anyway, I think you are willfully ignoring all the benefits of the Fighter, so I don't think I can help. The Fighter is better at martial combat than the Monk, and has less powerful abilities but with better accuracy in terms of spells. The Monk has more powerful abilities but worse combat stats. Not many ways around it. Nice talk I guess?

The bracer of +3 AC doesnt equal to a +3 armor, its actually around +2 armor level costwise.

There is also the fact that i am not min-maxing the monk at all.

The fighter has some cool abilities, i never denied that, i am saying that the abilities you get after wasting a ton of feats on multiclass are VERY lackluster.

If i min maxed, the monk AC would be up there with the fighter. The d10 for tiger stance is comming from the fierce flurry ability.

Like i said, i actually build both characters, i am not expeculating, i am comparing having both in front of me.

The immense small amonth of spell slots simple kill the multiclass, they are too few to be of real value. MAYBE you will find one use for a spell out of combat, its possible, but the ting that i see you using most is mirror image. Even haste, since it only give a strike option and not an action for an ability that make you strike, is very lackluster. Fly is now 4th level, meaning you have 1 daily casting and thats it... competing with goodies like fire shield or stoneskin.

Instead of expeculating, go ahead and build the character youself, you can probably do many things better than i did for sure, but you will realize how few resources you have at your arsenal.

If i gonne for a dex monk, my AC would be equal to a fighter, with a better TAC, losing like 2 damage per strike... (well, 4d10+3+1d6fire+1d6vsevil against 4d10+5+1d6fire+1d6vsevil)

Just build and you will see.


Meophist wrote:
Dragon Stance attacks do do 1d10 base, but they're neither Agile or Finesse, which makes it a poor fit for Dex Monks, although the posted Monk is Str-based. It's also Tiger Stance, which is 1d8 base, which also doesn't work, there is a 1d12 attack you can do with it, but that's not the same.

Fierce flurry.


Fierce Flurry! Knew I was missing something.

I get what you are saying though, and I think it's a GOOD thing. PF1 made min-maxing too powerful, PF2 makes min-maxing less important.

I like the fact that you can effortlessly build a very viable character!

However, the Monk does have issues that go beyond tuning. Early level fragility is a problem, being terrible at ranged weapons (until you can Ki Blast or get Monastic Weaponry) is a problem, being forced to max DEX to remain competitive in defence is a problem, very limited Signature Skills is a problem.

These issues are divorced from the other good parts of the class, and if they are solved, they don't take away from them or imbalance the class. The Fighter would still have more AC and better damage, and the Fighter would still have more versatile talents.

That being said, the Fighter needs some love too – more Signature Skills, at the very least.


RafaelBraga wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Dragon Stance attacks do do 1d10 base, but they're neither Agile or Finesse, which makes it a poor fit for Dex Monks, although the posted Monk is Str-based. It's also Tiger Stance, which is 1d8 base, which also doesn't work, there is a 1d12 attack you can do with it, but that's not the same.
Fierce flurry.

…Oh, I missed that. I was just looking at the feats. Sorry, must be a bit tired. Thanks for the correction.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
RafaelBraga wrote:
Monks should be renamed "Goku" in this version.

I might agree if I knew what that meant. :-)


Anyclass that doenst cantrip will suck at melee or ranged, there is no way to evade that the way damage work right now.

You cant afford to have 2 good weapons with same enchantment, and enchantment plus trumphs everything in the system right now.


The fact that i have the tools to overcome MOST problems without even having to resort to magic items(of course not counting magic weapons, since in this edition magic weapons resort to you from time to time, not you that resort to a magic weapon) make the monk one of the most versatile class, if now the most.

Wind step to fight in melee with flying monsters, awesome heal both in and out of combat, escape a grapple with a short distance teleport...

if youre clever you can even ready action to dimensional step out of area of a breath weapon or are spell.

So much versatility. While being good at climbing, sneaking (if you peak as a skill), jumping, resisting effects (saves).

The only thing a monk is bad is perception... but everyone sucks at perception since monsters have unfair boosts on perception and unless youre max dex rogue, with max items, you will never sneak at anything anyway.

To me the stances need a SERIOUS buff as well as much more abilities to be competitive with ki powers.


Anyone made a Gnome or Elf monk? It seems like being able to grab acid splash or electric arc as a cantrip with an ancestry feat is significantly more powerful than the ranged options you can select with class feats (even ones not available at level 1), which is kinda weird.


RafaelBraga wrote:

Anyclass that doenst cantrip will suck at melee or ranged, there is no way to evade that the way damage work right now.

You cant afford to have 2 good weapons with same enchantment, and enchantment plus trumphs everything in the system right now.

Doubling Rings are 50gp, you don't need two weapons with the same potency.

RafaelBraga wrote:


The only thing a monk is bad is perception...

And AC.

And skills.

And early game.

And longevity.

And read my other thread XD


Bro, my perception of what can i acomplish with a monk at the current state is very different than yours.

I ended with a AC far better than i expected. Skills doesnt matter much at all, unless you get to master for some absurdity (combat medic, catfall), otherwise they are more flufy than anyhing... and the fact that you dont have armor problems too athlectics or acrobatics works in your favor.

I ignored the monk relation with religion and did one with survival... i could get everything i wanted. To be honest only medicine, acrobatics and craft have something really worth above expert, and the skill feats are unbalanced as possible. Some are simples much better than others and many are just noobtraps that shouldnt be there in the first place.

I will actually play theese characters this friday and will see... (The party has a fighter, ranger and sorceror) i will play with the monk and sincerely i dont foresee many problems.

If something come up, i will come here and post.


RafaelBraga wrote:
Bro

Bro

Quote:
Bro, my perception of what can i acomplish with a monk at the current state is very different than yours.

Yes! Because I care about low levels, build versatility, and giving meaningful choices.

I'm glad the Monk does everything you want!

What I want is for the Monk to work for people who want to do different builds too.

Also, just for the record, you should build a Fighter with 14 DEX – that way, you can use Master Splint Mail (or better yet, Mail of Luck!) which has only a -1 ACP (and remember that ACP doesn't apply to Athletics checks to make maneuvers!) and provides as much protection as any other heavy armor. Clumsy doesn't matter as long as you have 14 DEX.

If you want, I can give you more tricks to optimize like this and the Doubling Rings I mentioned before.

This allll being said, I do believe Fighter should be a bit more intuitive about things like that.


RafaelBraga wrote:

My monk AC

In combat, you optimum damage is flurry+ki blast.

You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4

4d10 each of the two unarmed strikes, for a total of 8d10 if both hit? How is this achieved?


@RafaelBraga

If I read you correctly, you seem to suggest that the two strikes from flurry do not consider MAP. I did not read that in the rules text. Has that been explained elsewhere?

My understanding is that the two strikes from flurry are at, for example, +10/+6 (the second flurry strike takes a higher MAP penalty than the prior one, unless the MAP penalty is already max). The only benefit is that their damage is summated before being applied; they do not otherwise count as just one attack.

Edit:

Just reviewed the monk preview on the Paizo blog:

Quote:
Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4


Nadlor wrote:
RafaelBraga wrote:

My monk AC

In combat, you optimum damage is flurry+ki blast.

You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4

4d10 each of the two unarmed strikes, for a total of 8d10 if both hit? How is this achieved?

No, he meant 4d10 after combining two 2d10 flurry attacks.


LoreKeeper wrote:
Nadlor wrote:
RafaelBraga wrote:


In combat, you optimum damage is flurry+ki blast.

You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4

4d10 each of the two unarmed strikes, for a total of 8d10 if both hit? How is this achieved?

No, he meant 4d10 after combining two 2d10 flurry attacks.

Still can't see it. Fierce Flurry changes the dice of Tiger Stance unarmed attacks from d8 to d10, but it's still only one dice, isn't it? What am I missing? Or is this assuming handwraps of mighty fists?


LoreKeeper wrote:
Nadlor wrote:
RafaelBraga wrote:

My monk AC

In combat, you optimum damage is flurry+ki blast.

You get 2 attacks, with agile, base 4d10 each if both hits plus ki blast for 12d4

4d10 each of the two unarmed strikes, for a total of 8d10 if both hit? How is this achieved?

No, he meant 4d10 after combining two 2d10 flurry attacks.

Nope, i meant 8d10 combined damage.

At level 13, youre a +3 weapon wielding a monk (since youre a weapon in this edition trying to find a level equivalent adventurer).

Your monk have the ability to flurry.. you will do your second attack at -4... but as part of the same action of the first attack, so its a bonus... then you Ki Blast... since ki blast is save DC based, it isnt affected by MAP... so you use your normal DC instead of a -8 attack...to me, a VERY worthshile trade.

If both attacks hit... you are doing 8d10+(2xSTR) (cause fierce flurry) with 1 action and have the option to ki blast or do something else with your 2 actions. In a DPS race i would always Ki blast unless the oponent have a way to always critical success or have a incredible low AC.

The way magic weapon plus works, your tiger strike decreases in power and utility VERY fast, specially costing 2 actions, since some cool combinations can be done with the 2 actions.


And since a monk has a free +1 conditional to every attack, this -4 can be considered just -3 in most situations.


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RafaelBraga wrote:
And since a monk has a free +1 conditional to every attack, this -4 can be considered just -3 in most situations.

I believe that is still up for debate. I think the default behavior is everything costs 1 point unless otherwise stated. A 0-point cost would have to be explicitly stated. A 1-point cost not. Similar to how every action is a standard action in 1e unless otherwise stated.

This is particularly true since the text implies that there is a cost.


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RafaelBraga wrote:
And since a monk has a free +1 conditional to every attack, this -4 can be considered just -3 in most situations.

Ki strike indicates that you use your Ki pool, even said so in the monk reveal.

That the actual cost is missing, (should be 1) is not a proper way to playtest, that's just an errata.

It's mediocre to bad (1 Ki for a +1 attack)


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RafaelBraga wrote:
And since a monk has a free +1 conditional to every attack, this -4 can be considered just -3 in most situations.

Is there any point in playtesting this in a way you know is a mistake? It's clearly at least 1 ki per ki strike. What use are you going to get out of knowingly playing the class incorrectly? You get to tell Paizo that the mechanic that they typoed doesn't work well?


VampByDay wrote:


Here's my deal: Pathfinder has hammered it in, time and time again, that every character should have melee and ranged capabilities. They don't have to be fantastic, but they should be present. Level 1 Kyra has a sword, sling, AND fire-beam. But the monk has . . . nothing. No ranged training and no training in any other weapons.

I'm not asking for much, just simple weapon training so my monk can chuck a javalin at a flying enemy at level 1. Or shoot a crossbow. Listen, eastern Monks were where we got the concept of masters of zen archery, some could do crazy things with spears and hook swords, all sorts of crazy stuff. I'm just asking for a ranged option, that's all.

Sorry for getting on topic again...

You completely missed that weapons with the monk trait can be used with the monks unarmed proficiency. That includes Shuriken, which is a ranged weapon.

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