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At the very least, it could be so that a natural 1 that still succeeds should only fail normally and not critically.
It actually is that. A nat 1 that would have otherwise succeeded is just a normal failure. Not a crit fail.
Creative Director
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This looks like an ideal bit of text to adjust in the final game to keep Golarion's economy (and that of ANY setting that uses the rules) from collapsing within weeks! Ha. Thanks for pointing this one out, as it's a good example of hyperbolic rules text that might make sense for a PC to deal with but implies a lot more fundamental on a mass scale about a setting that uses the rules to simulate reality.
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I can get behind wanting a master sailor to handle your flagship. That makes perfect sense.
However, that's with Assurance, which is currently seeming like quite the steep feat cost. Not only because it applies to a single skill, but because it's really quite boring as a feat. Look at Intimidating Glare, Cat Fall (especially Cat Fall!), Wall Jump. Those are all impressive actions. Assurance, by virtue of the problem it seeks to solve, is just not impressive. It's necessary though, which is why I'm starting to think baseline Assurance should just be available to everyone. If you're Trained you should be able to use Assurance and take your 10. Expert, take your 15.
Let us spend our feats on fun and interesting things!
I can get behind wanting a master sailor to handle your flagship. That makes perfect sense.
However, that's with Assurance, which is currently seeming like quite the steep feat cost. Not only because it applies to a single skill, but because it's really quite boring as a feat. Look at Intimidating Glare, Cat Fall (especially Cat Fall!), Wall Jump. Those are all impressive actions. Assurance, by virtue of the problem it seeks to solve, is just not impressive. It's necessary though, which is why I'm starting to think baseline Assurance should just be available to everyone. If you're Trained you should be able to use Assurance and take your 10. Expert, take your 15.
Let us spend our feats on fun and interesting things!
I also like the idea of baking it in. Maybe use a feat to raise the assurance # even higher if that's something important to you.
Working as intended.
Pursuant to this, shall we conclude that the lifespan of the average trapeze artist is about three weeks, since they always have a 5% chance of crit-failing on Acrobatics and falling to their deaths?
Maybe this is the real reason everyone has apprentices. You have the apprentice make the check against their apprentice level dc and then the shop owner or whatever just assists the apprentice.
Since the DC for the aid action is a static 15 for typical skill checks you're sure to give the assistant a +2 or even +4 to their check. What's more, who cares if the apprentice gets shamed or fired. It's what apprentices do. :p
Pursuant to this, shall we conclude that the lifespan of the average trapeze artist is about three weeks, since they always have a 5% chance of crit-failing on Acrobatics and falling to their deaths?
At the very least, you should work with a net until you have picked up Assurance (Acrobatics) or higher feats.
Maybe this is the real reason everyone has apprentices. You have the apprentice make the check against their apprentice level dc and then the shop owner or whatever just assists the apprentice.
Since the DC for the aid action is a static 15 for typical skill checks you're sure to give the assistant a +2 or even +4 to their check. What's more, who cares if the apprentice gets shamed or fired. It's what apprentices do. :p
Have you read The Accidental Alchemist perchance?
This is exactly what the backward alchemists did to achieve immortality: they had their apprentices Do The Thing (which then killed them) and the master got the perks.
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Thanks for pointing this one out, as it's a good example of hyperbolic rules text that might make sense for a PC to deal with but implies a lot more fundamental on a mass scale about a setting that uses the rules to simulate reality.
On the other hand, think of the campaign potential. Pathfinder Adventure Path: "The Forsaken Army- a mysterious leader has rallied the masses of ignominiously rejected laborers across several nations into a powerful legion with one goal in mind: revenge!!!"
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I think Take 10 should be in PF2 and Assurance should be out. Take 10 has done nothing but speed up games on easy non-combat checks and removed nonsense situations like this.
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Thanks for pointing this one out, as it's a good example of hyperbolic rules text that might make sense for a PC to deal with but implies a lot more fundamental on a mass scale about a setting that uses the rules to simulate reality.On the other hand, think of the campaign potential. Pathfinder Adventure Path: "The Forsaken Army- a mysterious leader has rallied the masses of ignominiously rejected laborers across several nations into a powerful legion with one goal in mind: revenge!!!"
Unfortunately, his army routed after seeing they would have to cross a succession of twenty rickety wooden bridges.
I think Take 10 should be in PF2 and Assurance should be out. Take 10 has done nothing but speed up games on easy non-combat checks and removed nonsense situations like this.
I sort of agree. I think take 10 should just be what assurance grants. In a system with crit failures, the opportunity to just automatically take a (probable) success seems more powerful than take 10 in a system without it, even if it also prevents non-trivial crit-successes. As assurance stands, it's only ever useful if you have horrendous penalties or you take the skill to master or legendary, where it seems to me that assurance should be at its best for skills you want to be pretty decent at, but aren't your primary skills. Like a rogue who has assurance(athletics) shouldn't fail at climbing a wall, in order to steal a delivery manifest from a crooked noble, since the theft of the manifest is where the dramatic tension is (and thus the place for the roll to be most apt).
Reminds me of the old joke that every podunk village blacksmith in Forgotten Realms is a level 7 Expert because you need that level to have enough skill ranks to be competent at your job.
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I think Take 10 should be in PF2 and Assurance should be out. Take 10 has done nothing but speed up games on easy non-combat checks and removed nonsense situations like this.
Agreed. The Take 10 rule existed for a reason: to not waste the group's time with tedious stuff.
If there is an Assurance feat, then maybe it should work like Skill Mastery in PF1 and allow you to Take 10 even in combat? That could be worth a skill feat.
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People living in fear of getting fired from their job every few days and being shamed out of town -- sounds like a place I used to work once... ;-)
I think Take 10 should be in PF2 and Assurance should be out. Take 10 has done nothing but speed up games on easy non-combat checks and removed nonsense situations like this.
Agreed. The Take 10 rule existed for a reason: to not waste the group's time with tedious stuff.
If there is an Assurance feat, then maybe it should work like Skill Mastery in PF1 and allow you to Take 10 even in combat? That could be worth a skill feat.
As far as I can tell, Assurance already does that...
As far as I can tell, Assurance already does that...I think Take 10 should be in PF2 and Assurance should be out. Take 10 has done nothing but speed up games on easy non-combat checks and removed nonsense situations like this.
Agreed. The Take 10 rule existed for a reason: to not waste the group's time with tedious stuff.
If there is an Assurance feat, then maybe it should work like Skill Mastery in PF1 and allow you to Take 10 even in combat? That could be worth a skill feat.
No, Assurance gives you a total result of 10, regardless of your bonus. As in, you succeed on DC 10 checks, fail on DC 11 checks, and critically fail on DC 20 checks.
And there aren't a lot of DC 10 checks in the book from what I've seen.
As far as I can tell, Assurance already does that...
No, Assurance gives you a 10. That's it. You don't add your proficiency, your level, your attribute modifier, circumstance, moral, luck, conditional, or item bonuses.
You get a 10.
Flat.
When it comes to Assurance I still have mixed feelings on it in its current state.
Personally, I think that it should give a result of 10 + All Modifiers or 10/15/20/30. (whichever is higher)
I also think that it should be an innate mechanic for all skills that are at least 'Trained' rather than costing a feat. Losing out on the 'Taking 10' mechanic is really rough, though losing out on the 'Taking 20' mechanic is IMO a good thing.