Tanglefoot bags are broken

[Frost Man]

So I ran into an issue when considering the tanglefoot bag for my alchemist. At first, I thought that it was too powerful, considering that on hit any creature regardless of size or strength entangles it for 1 minute, requiring 3 actions to remove.

But then I looked into the entangled condition and discover a whole new problem. All that entangling does is reduce speed by 10 ft, and gives a 25% chance of failure to certain action types. This effect is thoroughly underwhelming; unless the bag is throw at the maximum range, most of humanoid races can still close the distance to you and attack you unhindered. And even at maximum range, a tanglefoot bag won't stop an elf.

The entangled condition essentially does nothing. You're better off with liquid ice, since it at least does damage. I think that the entangled condition needs a major overhaul for it to make sense. In fact, I think a lot of the hindrance values need to be rethought.

[Cellion]

Note that entangled gives a 25% fail chance to basically anything with the manipulate trait. This includes the following actions:
- Interact (picking items up, opening doors, interacting with the world around you in any way)
- Dropping an Item
- Somatic Casting
- Material Casting

Effectively, almost all spellcasting gains a 25% fail chance.

[Starbuck_II]

so Tanglefoot is for slow and anti-Casters?

So Heavy armor dudes and Warlocks.

Remember Heavy Armor dude likely has only 5 movement speed after being hit. 25-10 Heavy Armor=15 -10 Bag=5 ft

[Frost Man]

Again, liquid ice is still a better tool against armored/slow enemies, since it slows on hit while still dealing damage. And a 25% failure chance is still not a very reliable way of interfering with casters. So it's situational, and not even all that useful in the applicable situations.

Entanglement should be an actual problem, not a minor inconvenience.

[Shiroi]

It stacks with the liquid ice, and if I read it correctly it stops opening doors, activating the lever to the trap, drawing a weapon or potion, casting a spell...

Size small NPC trying to ring an alarm bell to get the guards? He's going to need twice as many move actions to get across the room, and could fail to get his hand off his own shirt. If you happen to use both, he now has to spend both actions just to get to the bell, and next turn still have a chance of failing to ring it (though failing a flat 5 check twice would be rather unfortunate).

I'm not saying it isn't possible to have it do more, in fact I'd like to see hampered 10 slow 1, but it's possible that could be an improved version. Alchemist feat maybe, make tanglefoot bombs that hamper 15 and slow 1 instead of normal? Or a few item levels higher for the stronger version.

A final version would be roots the target altogether, and slow 2. That basically reduces them to only being able to struggle to break free or take a swing at someone nearby. That's a save-or-suck though, so it would need to be handled at the appropriate...

Ah, now there's an idea.

Tanglefoot Bag Reflex DC15
Critical success: no effect
Success: hamper 5
Failure: hamper 10 slow 1
Critical failure: rooted and slow 2

[Paradozen]

Cellion wrote:

Note that entangled gives a 25% fail chance to basically anything with the manipulate trait. This includes the following actions:

- Interact (picking items up, opening doors, interacting with the world around you in any way)
- Dropping an Item
- Somatic Casting
- Material Casting

Effectively, almost all spellcasting gains a 25% fail chance.

If a spell has Somatic and Material components, does the caster need to succeed at 2 checks?

Also, it's 20%. A DC 5 check means you only fail on a 1-4.

[Xenocrat]

Paradozen wrote:

Cellion wrote:

Note that entangled gives a 25% fail chance to basically anything with the manipulate trait. This includes the following actions:

- Interact (picking items up, opening doors, interacting with the world around you in any way)
- Dropping an Item
- Somatic Casting
- Material Casting

Effectively, almost all spellcasting gains a 25% fail chance.

If a spell has Somatic and Material components, does the caster need to succeed at 2 checks?

Also, it's 20%. A DC 5 check means you only fail on a 1-4.

Yes, each action would be an individual check, so a somatic + material action spell would have a combined probability of failure of 36%.

[Rakle]

Xenocrat wrote:

Yes, each action would be an individual check, so a somatic + material action spell would have a combined probability of failure of 36%.

It will probably be only one check for the spell. Entangle disrupts an activity which includes multi-action spells. The flat check will be for the entire activity rather than each action within the activity.

+++++++

I think that ability to disrupt reactions is going to be the interesting addition to the entangle condition. Reactive shield, AoO's, cleave, deflect arrow, retributive strike, divine grace, nimble dodge & etc will now have a 20% of failure when the user is entangled.

[thorin001]

Since the damn thing require resonance to use it is firmly in the useless pile.

[Jason S]

I noticed this too with the Tanglefoot cantrip.

It's more that the Entangled condition doesn't do enough. That DC 5 check should probably also affect any action with the Move trait as well. That would make it a lot better and it would make sense as well, you're entangled, you're not going to be moving well or fast.

It's curious why the Tanglefoot Bag works differently than the spell. Since it needs 3 actions, it's better than the spell, which only needs a single check.

[Grave Knight]

It doesn't even give the Flat Footed condition. The only bomb that seems to do that at all is Bottled Lightning.

[Edge93]

thorin001 wrote:

Since the damn thing require resonance to use it is firmly in the useless pile.

I'm not so sure alchemical bombs require resonance. They are the only item I've seen that has no activation action. They're just thrown as a touch attack, rather than a specific activation. As far as I can tell that means they don't use RP since you spend RP when you take the activation action. For example the necklace of Fireballs specifically takes an action to detach a bead and another to throw it, and takes Resonance because this action cost is listed in the item entry. But the bombs have no such actions listed implying no cost potentially.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything clarifying this for sure.

[Nettah]

They do not require resonance to use. The item doesn't have an operate activation or the invested trait. The section on alchemic bombs states: "Bombs don’t need to be activated in the same way as other alchemical items, but drawing, preparing, and throwing a bomb takes one hand" -page 359

I think the bag can have it's uses. It does slow them for 1 min unless they spend 3 interact actions (which fails 20% of the time), so it's quite useful of slowing characters down. Especially heavy armor guys, since their TAC is often lower than others. Comparing it with Liquid Ice that only slows for one round doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Ediwir]

They don't require resonance.

However, speaking of resonance...

...the Operate activation has the manipulate trait.
And that's the most common magic item activation action.

Fun, huh?

(Also 25% spell failure is enough to make me nope out, dunno about you guys. Especially with Vancian casting and spell slots being reduced across editions. Big nope. Really don't wanna risk it. I'll remove the tangling, thank you)

[thorin001]

Antitoxin, antiplague, and poisons say that they require activation but have no cost. Bombs do not have the "no cost" tag.

[Ediwir]

thorin001 wrote:

Antitoxin, antiplague, and poisons say that they require activation but have no cost. Bombs do not have the "no cost" tag.

That is because all bombs do not require actovation and so are always cost free, as explained in p.359 “Alchemical Items”.

The only alchemical items that cost resonance are Elixirs and some tools.

[thorin001]

Ediwir wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Antitoxin, antiplague, and poisons say that they require activation but have no cost. Bombs do not have the "no cost" tag.

That is because all bombs do not require actovation and so are always cost free, as explained in p.359 “Alchemical Items”.

The only alchemical items that cost resonance are Elixirs and some tools.

No, it says "Bombs don’t need to be activated in the same way as other alchemical items, but drawing, preparing, and throwing a bomb takes one hand."

That is not the same thing as not paying an activation cost.

[Ediwir]

There is no activation.

All other item types specify that they need to be activated with Resonance and one or more actions, or in some cases, by activations that do not cost resonance.

Bombs never have an activation, which is where the resonance cost comes in.

[thorin001]

"Alchemical items are activated in various ways. Most require one or more Operate Activation actions (see pages 376–377); as with magic items, these activations require the expenditure of 1 Resonance Point unless specified otherwise."

Bombs are alchemical items, thus they follow the rules above. They do not have the 'no cost' note, so therefore they cost resonance.

[Ediwir]

...read your last two posts.
Slowly.

I mean, you got the quotes out yourself.

[Shain Edge]

Do bombs still have resonance cost to use, since the update?

[Alchemic_Genius]

Bombs never had a resonance cost to use, even since launch