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Bruno and Porridge have expressed at length thoughts similar to my own, but here are my two cents for whatever they are worth. And due respect to the above posts, as while I believe our thoughts are convergent, they did get to the message board first.
It's a simple concept: There are three sources of power going into a melee attack that are static, namely the Item's quality, the magic behind that item, and the character. To be cute, Manufacture, Magic, and Man, no slight meant to females and those who identify as non-binary - good alliteration is all. Let each contribute separately to the overall effect.
MAN: Damage Dice Should Come From The Character: Simply put, a 17th level fighter should be deadly with any weapon he can find. If they pick up a functional longsword in a moment of desperation, they're still a 17th level fighter and someone you don't want to tangle with! Tie the damage dice to the character's level. You can even tie it to class and level; favor the fighter and barbarian for highest damage dice with ranger, rogue, and paladin lagging just behind them, then on down the line.
I am reminded of the old Star Wars RPG's, where the heavy blaster Han used was available to the PC's. You could buy it as starting gear. The weapon wasn't overpowered, but that didn't take away from Han's feats because Han was that good. It made Han special, not the owner of a +5 DL-44 blaster. Han was a hero, not the vehicle by which an OP weapon defeated Stormtroopers.
This paradigm also lets the martials do what casters do; feel the power is mostly coming from themselves.
MANUFACTURE: Weapon Quality Gives a Bonus to Hit and Damage: A better weapon allows for a better to hit and damage roll. For example, allow a +1 to +3 to hit and damage increase for weapons from Expert through Legendary. You can even limit whether someone can benefit from an Expert or better weapon until they gain an appropriate level of skill with that weapon. The justification is simple; anyone who masters an instrument, weapon, or sport knows how good you have to be to really feel the benefit of a high-end piece of gear. I, for example, am an amateur fencer. I can feel a crappy epee when you give it to me compared to a well-made one, but I couldn't really get the nuance of a truly top-tier nationally ranked competitor's weapon.
Now, I can already hear someone thinking, "With 20 points of Proficiency and more from Strength, does that piddly +2 or +3 matter?" The answer is of course YES! Increasing your chance to hit by a flat 10-15% chance is nice, but that also augments your chance to *critical* by the same amount. If have, say, a 70% chance to hit, your chance to crit is 20%. Adding an additional 10% chance to both probabilities is definitely not a trivial gain; that's almost as good as Keen in PF1E + Good Hope.
MAGIC: Magic Adds Special Properties (and ONLY Special Properties): Allow magic to only add in properties to a weapon. Let magic feel special and practical. DR can come down to weapon types, alignment, and special materials instead of magical weapons.
This fits in much more with mythic, religious, and literary genre tropes and will make magic feel special. Magic makes weapons Returning or Flaming and so forth.
Bottom Line: Let the character (Man) dictate the damage dice. Let the magic give the weapon awesome properties. Let the quality (Manufacture) give the weapon a small bonus that - at the margins - does matter.
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Just a correction in the few past posts:
A fighter doenst 6d12+5 damage,
A fighter does 1d12+5 damage
A magic weapon do 5d12 damage
never forget that.
A sorceror do 10d8, 11d12 or whatever the number.
Thats the correct analysis and the main problem of this whrole thread.
Why give the fighter credit for the base damage? Isn’t it the greatsword responsible for the d12, rather than the fighter? The only thing the fighter contributes to his damage is the +5 in this example. After all, if the fighter loses his +6 greatsword and has to use a mundane dagger he finds, he loses all 6d12, not just the 5d12 from the +5.
It sounds like you guys are advocating for the 13th Age system where martial capability is completely divorced from the weapon. A fighter is just as deadly with a dagger as he is with a great axe (or a coffee cup, for that matter, if you are a fan of Riddick).
As a side note, trying to be an Improvised Weapon user in PF2 looks to be a bit harder unless you're tossing magic chairs at people.
MAN: Damage Dice Should Come From The Character: Simply put, a 17th level fighter should be deadly with any weapon he can find. If they pick up a functional longsword in a moment of desperation, they're still a 17th level fighter and someone you don't want to tangle with! Tie the damage dice to the character's level. You can even tie it to class and level; favor the fighter and barbarian for highest damage dice with ranger, rogue, and paladin lagging just behind them, then on down the line.I am reminded of the old Star Wars RPG's, where the heavy blaster Han used was available to the PC's. You could buy it as starting gear. The weapon wasn't overpowered, but that didn't take away from Han's feats because Han was that good. It made Han special, not the owner of a +5 DL-44 blaster. Han was a hero, not the vehicle by which an OP weapon defeated Stormtroopers.
This paradigm also lets the martials do what casters do; feel the power is mostly coming from themselves.
MANUFACTURE: Weapon Quality Gives a Bonus to Hit and Damage: A better weapon allows for a better to hit and damage roll. For example, allow a +1 to +3 to hit and damage increase for weapons from Expert through Legendary. You can even limit whether someone can benefit from an Expert or better weapon until they gain an appropriate level of skill with that weapon. The justification is simple; anyone who masters an instrument, weapon, or sport knows how good you have to be to really feel the benefit of a high-end piece of gear. I, for example, am an amateur fencer. I can feel a crappy epee when you give it to me compared to a well-made one, but I couldn't really get the nuance of a truly top-tier nationally ranked competitor's weapon.
Now, I can already hear someone thinking, "With 20 points of Proficiency and more from Strength, does that piddly +2 or +3 matter?" The answer is of course YES! Increasing your chance to hit by a flat 10-15% chance is nice, but that also augments your chance to *critical* by the same amount. If have, say, a 70% chance to hit, your chance to crit is 20%. Adding an additional 10% chance to both probabilities is definitely not a trivial gain; that's almost as good as Keen in PF1E + Good Hope.
MAGIC: Magic Adds Special Properties (and ONLY Special Properties): Allow magic to only add in properties to a weapon. Let magic feel special and practical. DR can come down to weapon types, alignment, and special materials instead of magical weapons.
This fits in much more with mythic, religious, and literary genre tropes and will make magic feel special. Magic makes weapons Returning or Flaming and so forth.
Bottom Line: Let the character (Man) dictate the damage dice. Let the magic give the weapon awesome properties. Let the quality (Manufacture) give the weapon a small bonus that - at the margins - does matter.
I like all this ideas. To make "perfect" i would make a little less dice than now (now its up to 6d), but each individual bonus applying to each die. I would recommend something like one extra at levels 5,11 and 17. So a longsword-wielding level 17 character with greatest possible item quality (+3) with 18 strength should do 4d8+28 damage.(1d8+7 x4)
That would increase the value of strength to damage... that is almost null at the current state.
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+1 to any rework idea that allows my martial type characters feel like their success in battle is due to their own skill, training, and life choices rather than the qualities and abilities of the tool that they are using. And that allows for backup weapons, improvised/circumstance weapons, and low-magic campaigns.
The math of how it works is much less important to me.
noteworthy flaming magical greatsword
It would be nice if the cool and exciting part of that was the flaming part, but it's a far, far distant second to 'but what PLUS is it?'
As a side note, trying to be an Improvised Weapon user in PF2 looks to be a bit harder unless you're tossing magic chairs at people.
Yep. At least Returning is improved and works out of the box for throwing builds, though you're looking at 6th before you can get the 2 4th level items [return and +1].
Hmm the ideal of using improvised weapons effectively does appeal to me. I suppose alternativly you could wear like a wrap or necklace or something that makes improvised deal more damage but whichever really.
I'd guess they'd make a headwrap type item like pathfinder classic did. The only difference I see is adding a standard quality level to the magic item.
I'd guess they'd make a headwrap type item like pathfinder classic did. The only difference I see is adding a standard quality level to the magic item.
Yeah. hmm is it possible to make improved quality non-weapon items? Is that available for more things or will possibly be available in the future?
I'd guess they'd make a headwrap type item like pathfinder classic did. The only difference I see is adding a standard quality level to the magic item.Yeah. hmm is it possible to make improved quality non-weapon items? Is that available for more things or will possibly be available in the future?
Well the handwraps prove that you can improve an items quality magically and the improvised weapon section says when you
"attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. Treat it as a simple weapon of poor quality (regardless of its actual quality)."So it doesn't seem like you can improve the quality of non-weapons used as weapons without magic. The only mundane way to improve the quality of it as a weapon is to build it as a weapon in addition to it's other purpose.
As a side note, trying to be an Improvised Weapon user in PF2 looks to be a bit harder unless you're tossing magic chairs at people.Yep. At least Returning is improved and works out of the box for throwing builds, though you're looking at 6th before you can get the 2 4th level items [return and +1].
How does it "Works out of the box"? The only thing that seems changed is that it comes back after an attack rather than before the start of your turn.
I suppose that helps you not be weaponless or use weaker options for the following throws.
Upside? It's listed as "Etched" so I wonder if you can draw that into a chair or something.
Seriously, I designed a dwarf that carried around stone chairs to chuck at people.
I'd guess they'd make a headwrap type item like pathfinder classic did. The only difference I see is adding a standard quality level to the magic item.Yeah. hmm is it possible to make improved quality non-weapon items? Is that available for more things or will possibly be available in the future?Well the handwraps prove that you can improve an items quality magically and the improvised weapon section says when you
"attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. Treat it as a simple weapon of poor quality (regardless of its actual quality)."So it doesn't seem like you can improve the quality of non-weapons used as weapons without magic. The only mundane way to improve the quality of it as a weapon is to build it as a weapon in addition to it's other purpose.
Hmm maybe a feat to over compensate for the lack of quality.
Lol So I'm going to use this masterwork Ming vase Its masterwork right so deals more damage ya?
How does it "Works out of the box"? The only thing that seems changed is that it comes back after an attack rather than before the start of your turn.
Ah... That's what was fixed as it means you can make as many attacks as you wish with that single weapons as opposed to needing multiple weapons with the old returning.
So, for instance, I have a monk with the Monastic Weaponry feat and a returning shuriken: I can make a flurry with that single weapon instead of needing multiple ones.
How does it "Works out of the box"? The only thing that seems changed is that it comes back after an attack rather than before the start of your turn.Ah... That's what was fixed as it means you can make as many attacks as you wish with that single weapons as opposed to needing multiple weapons with the old returning.
So, for instance, I have a monk with the Monastic Weaponry feat and a returning shuriken: I can make a flurry with that single weapon instead of needing multiple ones.
I don't see that as a problem myself but different things for different people.
My own throw builds tend to draw on more than one weapon/item to toss for different effects/damage so stocking up on weapons to throw doesn't really bother me.
My take on the problem (to me it is by far the biggest problem of the edition, worse than all other added together)
Rearrange weapon proficiencies around to "balance"(my take should be 6, 11, 16 lv to make on par with PF1 extra attacks)
Untrained: reduce weapon die by 1 step(d8 to d6)
Trained: 1 x WD
Expert: 2 x WD
Master: 3 x WD
Legendary: 4 x WDWD = Weapon Damage = The base die of the weapon PLUS the bonus from the character Strength modifier plus item modifier.
Item modifier = The "plus" of the weapon.
In this version weapons go from +1 to +3 only (+5 is a HUGE modifier... they reduced all spell bonus to +1 cause "the edition changed, every +1 matter" then left the weapon with +5, wich make absolute no sense)
Generic weapons can only be +1
Named rare weapons can be +1 or +2: Flame tongue, Icebrand, Sword of Sharpness, Trident of the Tides, Dagger of Venom, Dueling Rapier, Shield of the Lion, Any named weapon used in all this 40 years of DnD.
Named Legendary top tier weapons are +3: Holy Avenger, Vorpal Sword, Dwarven Thrower, Oathbow, Bow of Thunderbolts, Lifestealer, All other top tier weapons.
The plus of the weapon add on the hit roll and on each dice of the damage roll (like the strength bonus)
Now you have a system were magic weapon matter, but the adventurer wielding than is the most important thing.
This should be the way forward I believe
So, I said this a while ago,
Do we already have someone working on a variant to tie weapon damage die to weapon proficiency?
Because i feel like at least one is coming, fast.I mean... think about it. Potency runes that improve item bonus rather than granting one, max +1 on master weapons, max +2 on legendary weapons, +1 die on expert/master/legendary proficiency, and a couple class features adding damage die for barbarians during rage? Needs some more baking, but...
But I never returned to say the rest. This was what I had the weekend after posting that message:
- Expert, Master and Legendary proficiency in a weapon increases the damage value of that weapon by one die.
- Brutal Critical also increases the damage die of any weapon by one die during rage.
- Clerics also increase the damage die of their god’s favourite weapon by one die. The Emblazon and Align Armament feats allow you to treat any weapon etched with your symbol or aligned by you as your god’s favourite (these do not stack, but they do count for Warrior Priest).
- Magic Weapon and Shellilagh: changed to spell3
- Potency Runes now come in Lesser, Greater, True, as follows:Weapon Potency (Rune 8+, evocation, magical)
You can etch a weapon potency rune on a weapon of the quality listed under the individual entry of the type of rune. Greater and True Potency runes require the weapon to already have the listed weaker rune, and etching the new rune increases the existing potency rune bonus to the new value.
A Weapon Potency rune grants two offensive benefits. The weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls increases by the amount noted on the specific rune. For example, an Expert dagger with a Lesser Potency Rune would grant a +2 item bonus to attack rolls with the dagger.
Second, on a successful attack roll, the weapon deals an additional number of weapon damage dice equal to the item bonus increase. For example, an Expert wielder with the dagger mentioned above would deal 3d4 damage instead of 2d4 damage.
Type Lesser Weapon Potency; Level 8; Price 465gp
This rune can be etched only on a weapon of Expert or better quality. It increases the weapon’s item bonus and damage dice by +1.
Type Greater Weapon Potency; Level 16; Price 9,175gp
This rune can be etched only on a weapon of Master or better quality. It increases the weapon’s item bonus and damage dice by +2.
Type True Weapon Potency; Level 20; Price 61,860gp
This rune can be etched only on a weapon of Legendary or better quality. It increases the weapon’s item bonus and damage dice by +3.Handwraps of Mighty Fists: as the runes
I advocated that as a midway point to have both the items and the skills, and it requires no wealth adjustment. However, it is not without its faults (some characters present damage spikes that are pretty imbalancing, especially early game Fighters and Clerics) as it is basically my earliest draft in this matter.
Lately, I've been leaning more towards a "proficiency total" approach, adding an extra damage die for every 5 points of proficiency (so a 3rd lv fighter would deal 2d8, but monks and rangers would have to be lv4, and everyone else would wait till 5) and reducing wealth by level by 40% (characters generated at high levels reduce the level of their allotted items by 1).
Yes, I plotted wealth by level to do it. No, characters are not supposed to get +5 weapons, check the treasure distribution tables. Yes, the math checks out (to an acceptable level of error).
I think that you are on the right lines with this Ediwir. Like you say, it needs a little tweaking but is moving in the right direction. I shall consider this more over the next couple of days.
I think that you are on the right lines with this Ediwir. Like you say, it needs a little tweaking but is moving in the right direction. I shall consider this more over the next couple of days.
Thank you, but I am afraid I already wrote my full scale ABP by now :)
what's the point of a Barbarian if you have simultaneously both lower accuracy and lower damage/hit while you suffer from a negative AC and fatigue every 4 rounds?
With fighters starting at 2 dices, barbarians should START at 2 dices (on top of the +conditional damage) and your brutal rage fix isn't enough to keep them on par with the 6 dices of Fighters that they'll eventually reach.
Indeed. That is why I dropped the flat proficiency tier damage and instead adopted a more nuanced "proficiency total" approach for my ABP thread.
You're all welcome to have a look and, hopefully, it sparks some good contributions.
They weren't already?
Magic weapons have always been required if you are a martial (unless you are doing a niche build like natural attacks or something). Some of tge abilities like Keen are also basically requirements for certain builds. They also overcome DR and basically prevent breaking.
Even then you would need something like an amulet of mighty fists or enhancement spells generally ...
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You mentioned "2d8". I actually think you meant "2d12". Which brings up the point... magic weapons being tied to the die of the damage make having a d12 weapon insanely important. Anyone not able to find that d12 will suffer heavily. You can somewhat accept d10s for reach, but that's as low as I will go. Rogues with their fairly-easy-to-pull-off sneak attack I guess can accept d8s, since that is the only way to get an agile weapon.
I'd guess they'd make a headwrap type item like pathfinder classic did. The only difference I see is adding a standard quality level to the magic item.Yeah. hmm is it possible to make improved quality non-weapon items? Is that available for more things or will possibly be available in the future?Well the handwraps prove that you can improve an items quality magically and the improvised weapon section says when you
"attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. Treat it as a simple weapon of poor quality (regardless of its actual quality)."So it doesn't seem like you can improve the quality of non-weapons used as weapons without magic. The only mundane way to improve the quality of it as a weapon is to build it as a weapon in addition to it's other purpose.
Jackie Chan would be very sad.
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Bottom Line: Let the character (Man) dictate the damage dice. Let the magic give the weapon awesome properties. Let the quality (Manufacture) give the weapon a small bonus that - at the margins - does matter.
This, right here, is my ideal.
So, as a high level character, I'm still deadly with anything I'm proficient in.
If I have a high quality weapon, I've got a little better chance to hit and a better chance to crit (and a teensy bit of damage).
And if I want returning or flaming or some-such, I need magic.
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Bruno and Porridge have expressed at length thoughts similar to my own, but here are my two cents for whatever they are worth. And due respect to the above posts, as while I believe our thoughts are convergent, they did get to the message board first.
It's a simple concept: There are three sources of power going into a melee attack that are static, namely the Item's quality, the magic behind that item, and the character. To be cute, Manufacture, Magic, and Man, no slight meant to females and those who identify as non-binary - good alliteration is all. Let each contribute separately to the overall effect.
MAN: Damage Dice Should Come From The Character: Simply put, a 17th level fighter should be deadly with any weapon he can find. If they pick up a functional longsword in a moment of desperation, they're still a 17th level fighter and someone you don't want to tangle with! Tie the damage dice to the character's level. You can even tie it to class and level; favor the fighter and barbarian for highest damage dice with ranger, rogue, and paladin lagging just behind them, then on down the line.
I am reminded of the old Star Wars RPG's, where the heavy blaster Han used was available to the PC's. You could buy it as starting gear. The weapon wasn't overpowered, but that didn't take away from Han's feats because Han was that good. It made Han special, not the owner of a +5 DL-44 blaster. Han was a hero, not the vehicle by which an OP weapon defeated Stormtroopers.
This paradigm also lets the martials do what casters do; feel the power is mostly coming from themselves.
MANUFACTURE: Weapon Quality Gives a Bonus to Hit and Damage: A better weapon allows for a better to hit and damage roll. For example, allow a +1 to +3 to hit and damage increase for weapons from Expert through Legendary. You can even limit whether someone can benefit from an Expert or better weapon until they gain an appropriate level of skill with that weapon. The justification is simple; anyone who masters an instrument, weapon, or sport knows how good you have to be to really feel the benefit of a high-end piece of gear. I, for example, am an amateur fencer. I can feel a crappy epee when you give it to me compared to a well-made one, but I couldn't really get the nuance of a truly top-tier nationally ranked competitor's weapon.
Now, I can already hear someone thinking, "With 20 points of Proficiency and more from Strength, does that piddly +2 or +3 matter?" The answer is of course YES! Increasing your chance to hit by a flat 10-15% chance is nice, but that also augments your chance to *critical* by the same amount. If have, say, a 70% chance to hit, your chance to crit is 20%. Adding an additional 10% chance to both probabilities is definitely not a trivial gain; that's almost as good as Keen in PF1E + Good Hope.
MAGIC: Magic Adds Special Properties (and ONLY Special Properties): Allow magic to only add in properties to a weapon. Let magic feel special and practical. DR can come down to weapon types, alignment, and special materials instead of magical weapons.
This fits in much more with mythic, religious, and literary genre tropes and will make magic feel special. Magic makes weapons Returning or Flaming and so forth.
Bottom Line: Let the character (Man) dictate the damage dice. Let the magic give the weapon awesome properties. Let the quality (Manufacture) give the weapon a small bonus that - at the margins - does matter.
I love this idea and would make the increase in damage die occur with proficiency increases, and for the barbarian, I would increase his proficiency while raging so that it can match the fighter in damage. As is, I really hate how magic weapons work, and it really destroys visions of my characters to be completely reliant on weapon.
I agree there is a problem with Monsters being able to do multiple dice of damage with a standard weapon without utilizing a special ability kicking in precision or something like a power attack. However, I like the idea of magic being able to have a significant impact on the damage power produced by magic weapons. And simply put... A greatly powerful magic greatsword should in the end probably do significantly more damage than a greatly powerful dagger in my book. It makes sense to me.
However, I agree that Magic should not be the only way to get bonus dice to weapons/attacks made by the PCs. This should be somewhere in line with what capabilities any average monster would have the ability to get bonus damage from an equivalent manufactured weapon. (I'm leaving out natural weapons as they are frequently arbitrary choices, as far as I can tell.)
I started looking at the bestiary and looking at the attacks that were utilizing non-magical manufactured weapons, at first trying to look and compare at Level, which I had trouble finding anything that looked like a particularly good pattern. So I looked at them some more, just looking at the Statblocks. Searching for items saying "Damage 2d*' and so on. Interesting enough, although not 100%, I did find that the majority of the ones I looked at: when an attack bonus was +10 or higher, the manufactured weapons used 2dX for their damage, for attack bonuses of +20 or higher, those same attacks tended to use 3dX for their damage.
I therefore suggested to insure that PCs could keep up with monsters natural ability to produce damage, we could start with a basic rule that gave you a natural damage bonus dice value that wouldn't' stack with magic bonus, but would be available for when someone isn't using a magic weapon. So (Level + UTEML Bonus, + Ability bonus + Item bonus) / 10 rounded down could give you the number of bonus dice. (honestly, I'd probably allow the conditional bonus of a rage to add to the number before the division by 10, allowing one to get more dice sometimes during a rage, as it makes sense to me)
No it doesn't get rid of Potency Runes, or the magic of magic weapons, but I firmly deny that numeric bonuses aren't cool to have, and magical. I don't think that monsters should be scaled against them, and doing similar damage without having magic weapons or abilities. But allowing such natural damage does make sense. And the PCs should scale up like this very similar to how the monsters would. (doesn't have to be exact, but having a similar mechanic makes perfect sense to me)
This wouldn't give every 20th level character the ability to do 6d8 damage with a sword they pick up, but would give a fighter with a 22 STR, and expert (or magic +1) sword, and legendary proficiency the ability to be doing 4d8 with it. (20 for level + 3 for being legendary +6 for ability +1 for the item quality = 30 -> 30/10 = +3 dice)
That is pretty decent damage as a base. If they pick up a +5 sword, yes, they boost their damage output to 6d8, but just s simple expert quality sword can give him 4d8 of damage, a poor quality weapon would still give them 3d8. All this seams reasonable to me.
Of your other suggestion, the most interesting part is the idea of limiting item quality to the skill level of the user. This has some merit, although I still feel that anyone trained, knows the difference between a good tool and an average tool and can make good use of the good tool better/easier than an average tool, so I don't know the added complexity really would give that much better feel.
For me, any automatic progression would have to be slower than what someone might typically encounter and invest in as far as magic items go so that the automatic progression would would at least one die behind your average high quality magic item that level character might have. (seems like each +1 potency normally counts as 4 levels) So a Automatic Progression to be acceptable for me would have to be at most something roughly like Level 8 = +1dX and +1dX more per 4 additional levels.
That is at least my first stab at looking at how you could make magic items meaningful, but nudging them out of the almost mandated status.
To whoever is interested in removing weapon damage and other tidbits, I suggest a look at this thread. It's a bit wider than weapon damage, but it might be interesting.