PF2 Combat Maneuvers Discussion

[Bruno Breakbone]

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori monk, is currently poring through the playtest materials and working on a very rough guide to PF2 combat maneuvers. Bruno welcome all thoughts and discussion and looks forward to seeing how initial analysis changes after we see maneuvers in actual play.

PF1 to PF2 Overview:

CMB and CMD no longer exist, so without the full-, ¾- or half-BAB progressions of PF1, theoretically any PF2 class can be good at basic combat maneuvers if A) they can max their STR and B) can make Athletics a Signature Skill. However, certain classes are built with the ability to enhance their attacks/maneuvers, giving them better action economy and DPR. At a glance:

POSITIVE CHANGES
+No longer dependent on BAB
+No minimum stat pre-reqs
+No feat requirements to avoid AOOs.
+Disarm, Shove (formerly Bull Rush), and Trip upgraded to work on creatures up to 2 sizes larger than you
+Since maneuvers target FORT or REF, you can use a maneuver that target opponent’s weakest save

NEGATIVE CHANGES
-All maneuvers are currently under Athletics, meaning you have to invest in both the skill and your STR stat
-Grapple downgraded to work on creatures up to 2 sizes larger than you
-No “greater” version of maneuvers that creates AOOs
-Some maneuvers require a Critical Success to actually do what they’re supposed to
-All maneuver improvements/enhancements are currently locked under class feats i.e. you’d need to be a Fighter (or take the Fighter multiclass archetype) to get Combat Grab and Improved Combat Grab
-Since maneuvers target FORT or REF, you don’t get any benefits from a target being flat-footed (i.e. flanked, prone, etc) or any condition that doesn’t affect a save.
-Only certain weapons can be used for certain maneuvers
-No Dirty Trick, Drag or Sunder: expect table variation on what you can and can’t do during the playtest
-No replacing Reactions with a combat maneuver (i.e. PF1’s tripping someone who’s charging you, or disarming someone getting up from prone, etc.)

Early Maneuver Rankings:

(*): A poor option.
(**): An OK option.
(***): A recommended option.
(***): A great option.

DISARM (*) vs REF: If you succeed...you only grant a +2 circumstance bonus on further disarm attempts until the start of the creature’s turn. So, since all maneuvers are tagged attack, if you attempted to disarm your foe with your first attack and “succeeded”--they’d still have their weapon and you’d continue your way down the multi-attack penalty line (-5 on your second disarm attempt, -3 if you “successfully” disarmed on the previous attempt). On the positive side, someone else could use their best attack with the +2 bonus to attempt to disarm the foe and hope for a Critical Success...or you both could just attack.

Disarm Weapon Support: 10 weapons...but since Disarm is hot garbage, it’s better to get a weapon that supports another maneuver (like trip) and treat the disarm trait as a situational option.

GRAPPLE (**to***) vs FORT: Grapple is a mixed bag but definitely has been nerfed from it’s PF1 incarnation. You no longer can grapple creatures much larger than you (2 sizes larger max), but you only need one free hand and suffer no penalty for using just that one hand. You can no longer maintain a grapple and damage at the same (with one monk class feat exception)--in the 3 action economy, it seems like you are expected to Grapple with one action and then Strike on subsequent actions. There is no grappling “flow”--your opponent’s status can fluctuate between Grabbed and Restrained from round-to-round depending on how you roll...with no way to progress from Grabbed to Restrained. Currently, there are no rules for tying up a foe. Finally, Critical Failure is really bad for a grappler--your opponent can reverse the grapple and give you the grabbed condition or force you to fall prone! Until we see how grappling plays out in actual games, this Grapple is a situational 2- or 3-star maneuver.

Grapple Weapon Support: 0 weapons. Not even a net.

SHOVE (*to**) vs FORT: Like Grapple, Shove is a mixed bag. While you can now Shove creatures 2 sizes larger than you, you can only push them 5 feet, 10 feet on a Critical Success (vs the scaling distance you had in PF1). Furthermore, there is the risk of falling prone on a Critical Failure. As AOOs have been severely reduced, Shove is situational at best.

Shove Weapon Support: 5 weapons. Of note, this includes the only d12 weapon capable of a maneuver--the Maul.

TRIP (****) vs REF: Trip has been given some love in PF2. On a success, a creature is tripped; on a Critical Success, it also takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage--while not much, it does make those Nat 20s or Critical Successes feel good at the table. Another boost is that Trip now inherently works on flying creatures (Prone Condition: “If you’re Climbing or Flying when you would be knocked prone, you fall instead.”) Critical failure, as always, is you falling prone instead.

Trip Weapon Support: 13(!) weapons...but half are gated as Uncommon weapons. For martial melee weapons, the Guisarme has high damage and Reach, making it a nice control option while the Scythe with Deadly makes for wicked crits. For uncommon martial weapons, Monks with the Monastic Weaponry class feat should consider the Temple Sword; Goblins and Gnomes with the Weapon Familiarity ancestry feat should consider the Horsechopper (reach, versatile P) and Gnome hook hammer (two-hand d10, versatile P) respectively.

Suggested Stat Array:

Athletics is STR-based, so you’ll always be looking to pump your STR as much as possible. DEX edges out CON as the inflated L1 HP gives you some cushion. WIS improves your mental defense and perception. INT and CHA are your low-priority stats.

For martials, your stat array:
STR > DEX > CON > WIS > INT = CHA

If you are caster that focuses on self-buffing:
STR > DEX > CON > CASTING STAT > OTHER MENTAL STATS

Ancestries:

When looking at Ancestries, we’re generally looking for a non-STR Ability Flaw, medium size (so you can affect up to huge-sized foes), and solid HP. For traits, we’ll be looking for options that directly increase our Athletics, improve our defenses (since we’ll be in melee), give us access to maneuver weapons or give other useful options.

TL;DR RATINGS -- full breakdown will be in guide
DWARF (***1/2)
ELF (**)
GNOME (*)
GOBLIN (*½)
HALFLING (*½)
HUMAN (****)

Backgrounds:

While the backgrounds are pretty varied, we want to make sure that we can follow STR > DEX > CON > WIS (or Casting Stat). Since this is primarily from the POV of martial characters if a background forces INT or CHA, it’s automatically 1 star, adjust as necessary if you’re a caster. If a background grants you the ability to take STR and either DEX or CON, it’s 2 stars. Farmhand is 4 stars because we get Assurance in Athletics and we will keep that maxed during our career.

Acolyte (***): STR or WIS + Free. Student of the Canon, (Deity) Lore.

Acrobat (***): STR or DEX + Free. Steady Balance, trained in Circus Lore.

Animal Whisperer (**): WIS or CHA + Free. Train Animal, Animal Lore.

Barkeep (***): CON or CHA + Free. Hobnobber, Alcohol Lore.

Blacksmith (***): STR or INT + Free. Specialty Crafting, Blacksmith Lore.

Criminal (***): DEX or INT + Free. Experienced Smuggler, Underworld Lore.

Entertainer (***): DEX or CHA + Free. Fascinating Performance, Entertainment Lore.

Farmhand (****): CON or WIS + Free. Assurance (Athletics), Farming Lore.

Gladiator (***): STR or CHA + Free. Fascinating Performance, Gladiatorial Lore.

Hunter (***): DEX or WIS + Free. Survey Wildlife, Hunting Lore.

Laborer (***): STR or CON + Free. Robust Recovery, Labor Lore.

Merchant (*): INT or CHA + Free. Bargain Hunter, Mercantile Lore.

Noble (*): INT or CHA + Free. Courtly Graces, Nobility Lore.

Nomad (***): CON or WIS + Free. Assurance (Survival), (Terrain) Lore

Sailor (***): STR or DEX + Free. Underwater Marauder, Sailing Lore

Scholar (**): INT or WIS + Free. Assurance (Arc/Nat/Occ/Rel), Academia Lore

Scout (***): DEX or WIS + Free. Forager, Scouting Lore.

Street Urchin (***): DEX or INT + Free. Pickpocket, Underworld Lore.

Warrior (***): STR or CON + Free. Quick Repair, Warfare Lore.

Classes:

Bruno working on this section right now. Bruno currently work his way through Barbarian (***), Fighter (****) and Monk (TBD). Ranger, Rogue and Paladin next. You can view the evolution of this section at the google doc linked at the top of the post.

Maneuver Weapons:

A list of weapons able to deliver maneuvers. A more thorough breakdown and rating of weapon traits that complement maneuver builds will be forthcoming.

Table of Maneuver Weapons

Helpful conditions:

The following conditions are helpful in that either they lower your enemy’s defense (FORT or REF) or penalize a relevant skill (Acrobatics or Athletics to escape a grapple). Whether you can inflict these yourself or a fellow party member drops these on your enemy, these definitely make your job as a lockdown artist much easier!

Fatigued: -1 AC and saving throws per action until the start of your next turn

Frightened: Penalty to checks and saving throws

Sick: Penalty on all checks

Sluggish: Conditional penalty to AC, attack rolls, Dexterity-based checks, and Reflex saves

Magic Items:

This section is hyper-focused on items that specifically boost your STR, your Athletics skill or a specific maneuver.

Armbands of Athleticism (L9 or L17)
Belt of Giant Strength (L14)
Bronze Bull Pendant (L5)
Owlbear Claw (L1)
Wolf Fang (L1)

Bruno welcome your thoughts and experiences as the playtest continues.

[Atalius]

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori monk, is currently poring through the playtest materials and working on a very rough guide to PF2 combat maneuvers. Bruno welcome all thoughts and discussion and looks forward to seeing how initial analysis changes after we see maneuvers in actual play.

** spoiler omitted **...

The man, the myth, the legend is back. Good to see you again. You have put in some serious work today, I salute you.

[Odimeer]

Bruno, thanks for the reply on my thread about sundering as well I feel that sundering is only in class feats.. the rouge has sabatoge and maybe others? If we find this rule outside the obvious that’s floating in the equipment section it will be nice to know how to resolve within the system

[Secane]

Hi Bruno! Thanks for working on this guide.

Can I ask why is Grapple working on creatures up to 2 sizes larger than you considered a downgrade?
Should it be a plus if you can use grapple on more targets?

[Mats Öhrman]

Finesse weapons may use Dex for combat maneuvers:

Facebook link

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

If you are performing the Trip with a finesse weapon (such as the whip that has the trip trait), you add your Dexterity instead of Strength to that particular Athletics attack roll.

[Mudfoot]

I don't see why you gave the farmhand ****. It doesn't give a bonus to STR, and Assurance is useless (though it might be OK when/if Pz fix it).

I'd have thought you'd just want anything with a STR bonus and something else vaguely useful for your character. Like Warrior or Blacksmith.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Secane: PF1 grapple didn't have any size restrictions, so you could grapple any creature regardless of size differential (you only needed enough CMB or a lucky d20 roll). A 2-size cap is a reduction of power. As for the multiple-grapples, it's a wash(?)--you can grapple more creatures BUT the -5 MAP in PF2 is a much more harsh penalty than a -5 in PF1.

Mats: Bruno believes that Trip is the go to maneuver now--not only are the DCs lower (see table at end of post), but it has weapon support with trip weapons and now this finesse clarification.

Mudfoot: You need CON as a frontliner, so you simply take STR as the free bonus. Assurance is a mixed bag, but for trivial/low checks and the ability to ignore any penalties, Bruno feel it absolutely in the wheelhouse of a grappler who will most likely doing many athletic-based things.

TABLE OF 18 STR, MAX ATHLETICS GRAPPLER VS FORT DEFENSE -- Bruno's take aways: Grapple suffers in comparison to Trip, which not only faces (usually) lower DCs, but can add in weapon bonuses because of the many trip weapon options.

Other question Bruno's been wondering--can you use Assurance on Athletics when used to trip/grapple?

[Pramxnim]

You can certainly use Assurance when trying to Trip/Grapple, because you're rolling an Athletics check.

[Mats Öhrman]

Look at this post for an analysis of Trip with Assurance.

[Mats Öhrman]

Some more developer clarifications from Facebook regarding the fact that "Fist" is also a Finesse weapon and that it comes with a "free hand" (which means you don't need the Trip trait to trip with it). Quotes below are from the Facebook thread:

Sammy Tamimi wrote:

Follow up: #1 Does the weapon need to have the Trip trait or only need be finesse? For DEX-based Unarmed trippers, would they be able to use their DEX and get a bonus from their Handwraps? #2 Since trip/grapple is an athletics skill check, can you use Assurance?

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

#1 Typically a weapon needs to have the trip trait to trip even if you don’t have a free hand (Trip trait page 183). Because a trip is usually done with a free hand, it does not need to have the trip trait. And yes, you would gain any potency bonus from the wraps. #2 Yes, you can use Assurance with those checks (and not apply any bonuses, penalties, or modifiers), as normal.

As you can see, Assurance on combat maneuvers also seem to be ok for now.

[PossibleCabbage]

So my reading was that combat grab doesn't have anything to do with grappling except for you want your break grapple DC to be high in order for improved combat grab to stick.

Since combat grabbed uses "grabbed" instead of "Grabbed" the term appears informal, and doesn't even seem to occupy your previously unoccupied hand (so you can still do stuff like Dueling Parry, which is a bit weird, but useful).

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Since combat grabbed uses "grabbed" instead of "Grabbed" the term appears informal

How so? Conditions are not generally capitalized. AFAICT Improved Combat Grab inflicts the grabbed condition with all that entails. (Why it doesn't seem to take up your free hand in doing so I don't know.)

[Taenia]

One additional class to look at is Druid of the Wild Order. Though they may not get the same feats they can get really good Athletics checks in their forms nad get the size needed to trip/grab anything.

[sherlock1701]

My biggest issue is that Disarm only disarm on a crit success, which means you won't be succeeding often. That +2 on a normal success doesn't help much compared to your MAP.

Can't see much use for it given that it has to compete with actually dealing damage or tripping.

[Atalius]

Bruno do you have any updates for us yet?

[The Once and Future Kai]

Thanks for putting this together. I'm a big fan of combat maneuvers being rolled into skills alongside Feint, Intimidate, and similar. I do wish that skills other than Athletics had seen a bit more love (e.g. Disarm in Acrobatics, Dirty Trick in Deceive, Steal in Thievery, etc).

That said, I'm not as keen on the details... Trip feels right. It's a viable tactic that's powerful and threatening. On the other hand - Disarm is just terrible, Shove seems useless unless you happen to be beside a cliff, and Grapple feels a bit too weak. As much as I like the four degrees of success for spells and attacks I don't like how it's replaced scaling success for certain skills.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Bruno has no updates because a lot is in flux.

Trip still remains the best maneuver (especially with weapon support), Grapple needs another pass, Shove is too situational and Disarm is only good for mooks...and if you're dealing with a mook, why not just drop 'em with standard attack instead?

Bruno hope Devs take a look at combat maneuvers and give another rules/mechanics pass. As it is right now, Bruno not very engaged by the current implementation.

[Wolfism]

They definitely need to add back in dirty trick and steal. Dirty trick is the go-to maneuver for doing interesting ad-hoc things in combat and steal just leads to great character moments for the rogue types.

[breithauptclan]

I also saw Disarm in its current form and feel that it is unusably bad.

But that might not be a bad thing. If the entire party invested in doing a disarm, they might very well be able to pull it off.

And disarm is a fight-ending event. Especially at higher levels where you not only have to have a weapon, but have to have a magical weapon in order to do any significant damage.

A lot of monsters use natural weapons that can't be disarmed. However, all of the player characters are at risk of being disarmed and taken out of combat for that reason. Having a low risk of being disarmed doesn't seem too bad.

So having the difficulty of Disarm being much harder to pull off than grapple or trip seems about right since the impact of successfully disarming is a lot more powerful too.

[Draco18s]

What if the successful disarm also applied a penalty to the disarmed person's attacks?

i.e. You get a +2 to your next disarm, they get a -2 to hit you. This effect ends when they spend an action to regrip.

(costs them an action at worst)

[Bruno Breakbone]

Bruno like idea that a "successful" disarm causes some sort of negative for enemy versus the current version.

[DerNils]

That sounds like a good idea.
As to Dirty Trick, I always wondered if the Aid/Hinder Action wouldn't be an approporate replacement. But as Aid is very poor in it's current Iteration, I don't think it would work.
Shove needs to turn into a General "Reposition" Maneuver, or we Need a specific repositioning mechanic to drag People around the battlefield.