The STR / DEX Dichotomy in 5E


Prerelease Discussion

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BluLion wrote:
This topic reminds me of the kobold paladin character I made in 5e that had a strength of 4. Due to dex to damage, he was able to keep in in damage despite this, and that was what made me realize how you need to be careful with dex to damage and to give strength a means to keep up with it.

As an exaggeration of this, I rolled some stats and made a character sheet I still have somewhere for a 1 str 18 dex kobold rogue.


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Bardarok wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

And that 12 - 14 dex is easily allowed to come by later with ability boosts. In addition this investment is a lot less of a cost for the fighter, than it would be for the rogue doing vice versa.

...

And that's still a way more significant investment than a strength build would need to put in for their defenses. If melee weapons had a maximum str bonus to their to hit or damage, then it'd be the equivalent investment required. Instead a flat +2 means less damage or less utility than a fighter.

I don't see your argument. Why is investing in Str more of a burden for a Dex Rogue than investing in Dex is for a Fighter?

Because Dex has a effective cap in terms of usefulness to the fighter (in terms of the armor's max dex bonus), whereas Str doesn't for a rogue that has to use Str for damage.

Currently the ability boosts generation table looks like this from what we know:
Ancestry: + + + -
Background: + +
Class: +
Level 1: + + + +
Level 5: + + + +
Level 10: + + + +
Level 15: + + + +
Level 20: + + + +

For a str/dex rogue, they have to invest 14 of their 26 boosts (15 if they have a - to strength) of their boosts to stay on par with a Str Based Character in terms of damage.

Double edit to bring this here: A str based rogue would only need to use 8 of their boosts to have the same defenses and 1 less damage than the others. Widely increasing their utility.

Whereas the Str based char is only investing a total of 10 boosts (if max is is +2, 11 if dex is a -) for the same attacks and defenses as the Str/Dex based char (perhaps more AC but lower TAC).

In addition, the str based char doesn't have a class feature/feat wasted on splitting the relevant stats for damage, thereby gaining even more of an advantage in terms of resources.

Edit: If weapon's had a max str similar to armor's max dex (based on the weapon) and for agile/finesse weapons it capped at +2 str, then the dex char would only need to invest in str as much as a str char needs to invest in dex.


Sorry quoting on my phone is not working. So I'll just note that, I can only work under the assumption of what we have and I'm in full support of waiting until the play test before we hashed out significant details. using Pathfinder 1 logic pro Pathfinder to is rather erroneous in something I don't really support, however, It is the only baseline I have to work with, however, well I tend to lurk these forums, until someone noted it I did not realize that the third level road only had one v6. Insulin last follow-up post speculated that it might be more Slayer like rather than just completely half the dice it arbitrarily.

As for the note of investment and strength or Dex without having to invest in skill or abilities, that more has to do with the disparity of armor being quote-unquote free defensive making decks unnecessary or at least minimally impactful defensively. However we don't know the mechanics of armor and the benefits of wearing light armor. So we don't know how that'll actually impact AC and avoidance. Even noting it purely in vacuum state that just means there needs to be a balancing point for damage equipment wise 4 week or characters like there is armor for Less dexterous characters to make up the difference.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Isn’t this the same for every other melee version of a class that doesn’t give a STR boost? It seems like the only problem would be if there is no other options worth selecting for a rogue that build off of any other stats.

Liberty's Edge

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Bardarok wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This still incentivizes all Rogues to be as thuggish (ie: low Int and Cha) as possible, which is a bad incentive. There's certainly a place for Rogues like that, but it being the singularly optimal choice is distinctly not fun for all the people who want to play clever or charming Rogues.
That's a very power gamer focused analysis.

It's an analysis of how rules incentivize behavior. So yes, it's gamer focused, but it's also true.

Bardarok wrote:
Giving a static +2 damage gives reason for Rogues to invest in Str sure but there is no reason that it would make all rogues thuggish. It makes it a real choice.

-5 damage behind what's already pretty mediocre damage at best almost necessitates Str investment in a game as combat focused as Pathfinder.

Bardarok wrote:
At least it would have a much weaker effect than having dex to damage which encourages all rogues to be weaklings.

Sure. But I'm not advocating Dex-to-damage as universal, I'm arguing a choice of that and something favorable to Str characters.


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Unicore wrote:
Isn’t this the same for every other melee version of a class that doesn’t give a STR boost? It seems like the only problem would be if there is no other options worth selecting for a rogue that build off of any other stats.

No actually it isn't, a rogue/(other class that doesn't give a boost to str) who doesn't split their stats and goes pure str instead of splitting between dex/str only uses 8 of their boosts on damage while having the same defenses and dealing 1 less damage than a str based char in a class that gets a str boost.

This gives them a huge boost in versatility and utility, and while they may trash a feature they're gaining way more out of it.


willuwontu wrote:

Okay I see that. Though The Str Fighter does have a class feature that lets them split their relevant stats for defense, it's heavy armor proficiency. And while they don't need more than 12 or 14 dex to maintain the highest AC every point of dex improves their reflex save and allows them to move down to a lighter armor on top of boosting the dex skills. Maybe that is balanced with +1 damage and +1 bulk though I am not so sure. Thank you for clarifying.


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Has anyone here ever seen an acrobat up close? I have, and let me tell you, those folks are ripped. Not quite Bruce Lee in his prime ripped (go and watch one of the many clips of his topless fight scenes if you don't know what I mean) but ripped. There's no such thing as a weak acrobat. I mean, have you seen the kind of stuff they do? Take a look at this, and seriously ask yourself if someone with Strength 10 (never mind Strength 8) could even consider doing stuff like this. Sure, I wouldn't consider Strength 18 as a prerequisite for that kind of stuff, but 14 seems pretty reasonable - which of course then gives the bonus to damage in melee.

Now I can think of two ways to model this. The first would be to have stat requirements instead of level requirements for specific levels of training. For example, Acrobatics would require a strength of 10 just for training, a 12 for expert and a 14 for master or higher - it's not that higher strength makes certain movements easier, just some movements require a certain amount of strength before you can even attempt them. Likewise, mastery in a given weapon proficiency would probably require an intelligence of 12 or 14 (if combat expertise still exists and has one of those as a prerequisite, maybe use that prerequisite instead).

Alternatively, and I actually kind of prefer the idea of doing it this way, have gaining a level of proficiency higher than trained give a stat bump to a related stat (though preferably not the one it's keyed to). For example, becoming an expert archer would probably net you a strength bump, as would becoming an expert acrobat, while becoming an expert in perception might give you an intelligence bump as you start noticing patterns that others miss. The main reason I kind of prefer this is that it encourages considering skills that you otherwise might not think of. If there's a concern regarding people having much higher stats at first level than is currently the case, maybe consider reducing the number of stat bumps available in character creation.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

-5 damage behind what's already pretty mediocre damage at best almost necessitates Str investment in a game as combat focused as Pathfinder.

Bardarok wrote:
At least it would have a much weaker effect than having dex to damage which encourages all rogues to be weaklings.

Sure. But I'm not advocating Dex-to-damage as universal, I'm arguing a choice of that and something favorable to Str characters.

I think we want fundamentally different things from the game. I think it is bad when any rules system which favors Dex or Str to the exclusion of the other. That's what the OP pointed out happens in DnD 5e.

You are only behind in damage by 5 points if you have a Str of 8 and leave it there. For a melee character to invest so little in Str I think they SHOULD do a whole let less damage. They made the choice to boost something other than that and get the benefits of it.

I think that dex-to-damage plus boosting Str could make them equivalent but I still then it is bad game design because they would still be exclusionary to each other leaving no room for a high Dex and high Str character.

Said another way I think as a game design principle a character who invest all of their ability boosts into Str, Dex, and Con should be a better physical combatant than a character who only invested in two of those.


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Bardarok wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Okay I see that. Though The Str Fighter does have a class feature that lets them split their relevant stats for defense, it's heavy armor proficiency. And while they don't need more than 12 or 14 dex to maintain the highest AC every point of dex improves their reflex save and allows them to move down to a lighter armor on top of boosting the dex skills. Maybe that is balanced with +1 damage and +1 bulk though I am not so sure. Thank you for clarifying.

Boosting reflex saves is a fair point (and the armor class feature), however I feel the post conveyed my point to you.

It's the bolded portion that I agree with the most. If str had more of a role than, "Thog smash harder" or "Thog carry mountain now", it'd be much healthier for the stat. That's why I like the suggestions of increasing ACP and having str reduce it (thematically it also makes sense, more str and control of it means the armor is less of burden to you), and the idea of str being used in place of dex for light or no armor (abs of steel).

I'd rather expand Str than constrain dex even more.


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willuwontu wrote:


I'd rather expand Str than constrain dex even more.

Right I understand your points. I think I am just more concerned about overlap. In my opinion all characters should want Str and Dex (and Con, and Int, and Wis, and Cha).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Amalie Grisae wrote:
The conditional dex to damage is slightly too high a swing, so simply adding dexterity mod to damage as precision damage, and thus unable to multiply on a crit, in addition to strength would make more sense. By removing the critical benefit of it it allows for some moderate damage increase without crowding out strength. This however is a stopgap to the issue.

The issue with this is that all damage (including Sneak Attack) doubles on a crit.

Amalie Grisae wrote:
I apologize I was referring to the damage curve. As they gain sneak attack every other level beginning with the first the bonus to damage would only be plus one,

Actually, evidence suggests Sneak Attack comes less frequently than this. A 3rd level Rogue in a demo game had only 1d6 Sneak Attack.

Errors like both these are why I think we should wait until the playtest is out to discuss this.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like "the rogue who is strong and a bruiser" should be every bit as viable and supported by the rules as "the rogue who is intelligent and a tactician" or "the rogue who is charming, and a manipulator".

Building "dex-to-damage" into the class puts the former in a bad position, since you have a class feature which runs counter to your (wholly reasonable) concept.

I agree. I'd rather it was a choice of several valid options rather than automatic.

Secret Wizard wrote:
My problem with DEX-to-damage is that it encourages 8 STR, and nothing else encourages raising STR. That's the crux of the matter.

I'm not actually sure this is a problem as long as Dex-to-damage costs something of value to compensate.

Secret Wizard wrote:
UnRogue needs DEX-to-damage because of point-buy issues. If a regular Rogue could have 18 STR and 18 DEX, they wouldn't need DEX-to-damage for output, right?

True.

Secret Wizard wrote:
PF2E Rogue does NOT need DEX-to-damage for point-buy issues. Due to four +2 ability boosts to
...

You make a good arguement. I still would like to see the dex to damage not be a baseline rogue class feature. or heck str and dex to damage so str isn't irrelevant but that might be too strong really.


So how about a rogue ability which adds dex-to-damage on a crit (to represent the benefit of precision when hitting a vital spot) but not on a normal hit?

How is that as a compromise?

Verdant Wheel

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:


Ideas:
1. First level ability grants Rogues +2 damage with Agile/Finesse weapons. Simple enough. If a Rogue goes gung-ho on STR, then they'll have to deal with their bad AC and increased crits coming to their face due to not having good armor proficiencies. If they have high DEX and good STR, they'll be good hitters, but miss out on utility. If they take high DEX and good mental stats with middling STR, they'll be more utility focused than damage focused, but they'll still be able to Sneak Attack to compensate.
This still incentivizes all Rogues to be as thuggish (ie: low Int and Cha) as possible, which is a bad incentive. There's certainly a place for Rogues like that, but it being the singularly optimal choice is distinctly not fun for all the people who want to play clever or charming Rogues.

Why do you think this incentive would be too strong?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

So how about a rogue ability which adds dex-to-damage on a crit (to represent the benefit of precision when hitting a vital spot" but not on a normal hit?

How is that as a compromise?

I suggested that earlier but I think the disagreement is more fundamental.

I think everyone would agree that they want strength and Dex to be balanced such that both Str and Dex based characters are viable. And there are ways to do that with Dex to Damage by buffing Str or without Dex to damage by buffing finesse weapon damage.

But Dex to damage is about wanting to dump Str, or to put it nicer not forcing a Dex based character to take Str. And I think that's a pretty binary thing.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

So how about a rogue ability which adds dex-to-damage on a crit (to represent the benefit of precision when hitting a vital spot" but not on a normal hit?

How is that as a compromise?

Would it be str + dex on a crit, or just dex?

Str + dex is overbearing and makes the rogue feel really swingy in its attacks. Just dex means switching stats for damage which feels wonky.

TBH, the best way to go about not having dex to damage, would be giving both dex and str to hit, with str still being damage.


willuwontu wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

So how about a rogue ability which adds dex-to-damage on a crit (to represent the benefit of precision when hitting a vital spot" but not on a normal hit?

How is that as a compromise?

Would it be str + dex on a crit, or just dex?

Str + dex is overbearing and makes the rogue feel really swingy in its attacks. Just dex means switching stats for damage which feels wonky.

TBH, the best way to go about not having dex to damage, would be giving both dex and str to hit, with str still being damage.

I say Str+Dex, since "devastating critical hits" are sort of part and parcel to the rogue's identity, and we're only talking about an extra 4-8 damage anyway. Doubling sneak attack damage on a crit is going to have a bigger effect once you have 3d6.


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Dex is still really important for characters with heavy armor because of reflex saves, with +10 being a critical each point is worth twice as much. So Dex already has value for any character.

If you have Dex to damage than the rogue will boost Dex con and Wis with a choice of cha or int. Str has no value for them. If they have no boost to damage they will stay ranged or go Dex str con Wis and not spend any stats on cha or not. I don't think that's a good solution.

If they have a flat boost to damage then each point of str will be a lower portion of their damage, and it will be a valid choice of what to boost between str int and cha. Maybe sneak attack is enough (I don't think so), maybe +2 damage and sneak attack is enough (I think so).

As it stands boosting str is not a reasonable option for rogues, I hope for 16 str 18 Dex to be as viable as 16 cha 18 Dex, that is currently not the case.

Liberty's Edge

Secret Wizard wrote:

My problem with DEX-to-damage is that it encourages 8 STR, and nothing else encourages raising STR. That's the crux of the matter.

UnRogue needs DEX-to-damage because of point-buy issues. If a regular Rogue could have 18 STR and 18 DEX, they wouldn't need DEX-to-damage for output, right?

PF2E Rogue does NOT need DEX-to-damage for point-buy issues. Due to four +2 ability boosts to spread around, Rogues would be easily able to afford to boost STR to get extra damage.

PF2E Rogue would lag behind in damage, ostensibly, if they didn't have DEX-to-damage. Well, then give them another boost to damage elsewhere, somehow. They can always increase their Strength to get more base damage.

Ideas:

1. First level ability grants Rogues +2 damage with Agile/Finesse weapons. Simple enough. If a Rogue goes gung-ho on STR, then they'll have to deal with their bad AC and increased crits coming to their face due to not having good armor proficiencies. If they have high DEX and good STR, they'll be good hitters, but miss out on utility. If they take high DEX and good mental stats with middling STR, they'll be more utility focused than damage focused, but they'll still be able to Sneak Attack to compensate.

2. High level ability grants Rogues DEX+STR to damage. A capstone of sorts, at 7th level or higher so it's not easy to pick, but a good boost to damage that also says "leveling up STR is not a waste."

I may be wrong but what I get from this post is that a DEX-based frontliner that wants to stay relevant should boost STR as much as possible. Which is pretty much opposite to the whole concept

I agree that characters that boost both STR and DEX should get more benefits in combat than those who boost only one of those

But currently, the right way to build a non-Rogue frontliner seems to be highest STR and average DEX

And I still want to play a DEX18 STR12 frontliner that stays relevant (and not only through a Rogue build). We do not have enough info yet about PF2 to know what damage output would be needed for this. Maybe 75% of a STR-based builds damage would be enough. Maybe 90%

But the answer should not be just get higher STR


Yeah my idea for the way attributes should work it they should all be valuable at some level. Ofcourse the wizard is going to prioritize int and figther str etc. but when it comes down to the last bit I like it to be some what of a decision.


Isn't it already true that if a Rogue wants to build for damage, they'd go with STR?

So to me, the ultimate effect of DEX-to-damage is that it INCREASES the damage differential of the STR-based Rogue while simultaneously making STR-based Rogues feel like they are squandering class power budget. A Rogue with a cudgel still outdamages a Rogue with a dagger by a lot in exchange for a few points of AC.

If you replaced DEX-to-damage with a flat +2 boost to finesse weapons, which increases to +3 and then +4 later on, you'd be reducing the damage potential of a full STR build, while also giving STR builds a lower damage cap.

This would incentivise DEX builds more than DEX-to-damage, as it would make the STR builds worse in comparison, as they'd deal less comparative damage with 18 STR and a cudgel than having 18 STR and a dagger. Similarly, the DEX build would deal more damage than a DEX-to-damage build if it had 14 STR at least, and it could certainly overtake STR and a cudgel, narrowing the gap between it and the STR build.

So, the way I see it, a scaling bonus to finesse weapon use would be better for balance for DEX builds than DEX-to-damage as it reduces the potential of STR builds while increasing their baseline.

Liberty's Edge

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Bardarok wrote:
I think we want fundamentally different things from the game. I think it is bad when any rules system which favors Dex or Str to the exclusion of the other. That's what the OP pointed out happens in DnD 5e.

No, I agree with that statement entirely. I very much want Str to be the equal to Dex in terms of combat options. But that's just the thing, I want them to be equal.

Bardarok wrote:
You are only behind in damage by 5 points if you have a Str of 8 and leave it there. For a melee character to invest so little in Str I think they SHOULD do a whole let less damage. They made the choice to boost something other than that and get the benefits of it.

Actually, that was a mid level average for Str 10 or so. And realistically, they're behind more like 13 points of damage at high levels, and 5 points per hit even at 1st if they lose Dex-to-damage.

And I'd agree that being way behind in damage if low Dex characters were equivalently behind in AC, but they aren't. Dex 10 can have as much AC as Dex 20, by all the evidence. Dex 12 can seemingly do so easily.

But that's not the case. And given that it's not, I'm much less inclined

Bardarok wrote:
I think that dex-to-damage plus boosting Str could make them equivalent but I still then it is bad game design because they would still be exclusionary to each other leaving no room for a high Dex and high Str character.

High Dex and high Str combined definitely need an advantage, and I'm all for adding one. What I'm against is making all Rogues and other Dex-based chatracters have to do this, especially when Str-based ones mostly don't.

Bardarok wrote:
Said another way I think as a game design principle a character who invest all of their ability boosts into Str, Dex, and Con should be a better physical combatant than a character who only invested in two of those.

Sure, but ditching Dex-to-damage without other significant changes makes this only necessary for Dex based characters, which makes Dex the notably weaker combat stats.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So how about a rogue ability which adds dex-to-damage on a crit (to represent the benefit of precision when hitting a vital spot) but not on a normal hit?

How is that as a compromise?

This is a tiny bit of damage on average. Equivalent to something like 5%-10% of their Dex bonus. I don't think a max of less than a single point of damage per hit, on average, is a valid compromise.

rainzax wrote:
Why do you think this incentive would be too strong?

Because it's a huge DPR boost and Int and Cha don't help directly with combat at all. When combat boosts compete with non-combat boosts, the non-combat ones rarely come out ahead.

This is a very common principle of game design in something as combat oriented as Pathfinder, and one of the main reasons you get an entirely separate pool of Skill Feats from other Feats.


Deadmanwalking, just made a post thinking about your comments right above the one you made, don't miss it <3


The thing I will say I agree with Deadman on is that finesse weapons are already dealing less damage and it might be significantly less damage so the dex might be necessary to keep up with that difference. I would need to see the full document to really decide. If a rogue can do a str build and noticeably out damage a dex build then I am ok with it in the end. Its not perfect for me but its acceptable. If Str rogue is viable then I am all good at the end of the day.

I still would prefer rogue to have some other damage bonus that wasn't just dex to damage to allow them to keep up but hey I'm reasonable.

Liberty's Edge

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Isn't it already true that if a Rogue wants to build for damage, they'd go with STR?

Not with Dex-to-damage options, at least not that we know of. I mean, it's possible, but we have little info on which will do more damage.

Secret Wizard wrote:
So to me, the ultimate effect of DEX-to-damage is that it INCREASES the damage differential of the STR-based Rogue while simultaneously making STR-based Rogues feel like they are squandering class power budget. A Rogue with a cudgel still outdamages a Rogue with a dagger by a lot in exchange for a few points of AC.

We actually don't know if a club Rogue does more than one with, say, a rapier. We need way more information before assuming this.

Secret Wizard wrote:
If you replaced DEX-to-damage with a flat +2 boost to finesse weapons, which increases to +3 and then +4 later on, you'd be reducing the damage potential of a full STR build, while also giving STR builds a lower damage cap.

Uh...you can use Str with finesse weapons. Quite readily. Or are you g=suggesting it only apply when attacking with Dex.

This damage bonus is also quite a bit lower than Dex-to-damage, thus enforcing raising Strength to be relevant at combat. Which, again, is something I'm really against given that it's not reciprocal (ie: nothing enforces Str characters to raise Dex).

Secret Wizard wrote:
This would incentivise DEX builds more than DEX-to-damage, as it would make the STR builds worse in comparison, as they'd deal less comparative damage with 18 STR and a cudgel than having 18 STR and a dagger. Similarly, the DEX build would deal more damage than a DEX-to-damage build if it had 14 STR at least, and it could certainly overtake STR and a cudgel, narrowing the gap between it and the STR build.

My issue is that you need to heavily invest in Strength and Dex to do this. That's a heavier investment to do less damage as compared to a Str-based Fighter. Which is bad.

Secret Wizard wrote:
So, the way I see it, a scaling bonus to finesse weapon use would be better for balance for DEX builds than DEX-to-damage as it reduces the potential of STR builds while increasing their baseline.

I disagree, but even if true I strongly feel that requiring both stats for Dex to work in combat is asymmetrical with Strength in a really unfortunate way.


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The way it should work IMO is ok I got a good dex and it helps with most of what I'm suppose to do. So now should I be the party face/item user and up charisma, should I really get my wisdom up there so that I can find traps easier have good will saves, up int for more skill, we all know how con works, or up my str a bit to improve my damage some more. Then I can look at my concept and my party and decide which is more dire. As opposed to well this is the primary rogue build. Keep dex up and boost my saving throw stats.

I've never liked dex to damage. I accepted it for unrogue because rogues needed something.

Liberty's Edge

Unicore wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I plan to build and compare 3 frontliners once we have the book :

STR-based Fighter to get a baseline
DEX-based Rogue
DEX-based Fighter

I expect the last one to fare very poorly :-(

Could be fun to build and compare a STR-based Rogue too

There is a good chance that things like "dex-based fighter" might not hit optimal viability until more archetypes and feat options open up, but I think asking ourselves what those builds need, and providing that feed back will be very useful. SO it is totally cool to engage in these projects.

Is the concept behind a dex based fighter a two-weapon fighter? a fighter that uses thrown weapons to maximize attacks per round without having to move?

It is important that our character concepts focus more on what a character does in play than just looking at mechanical options. IF Dex based fighter is just Valeros with a 16 Dex and 16 STR, there may be some value in seeing what that build looks like, but it is probably ok for that build to be less optimal than the exact same build with a 18 STR and 14 Dex.

Frontliner, as in melee weapons. STR12 DEX18 since we have a STR18 DEX12 Paladin.

I really wish for a STR12 DEX18 non-ranged martial to be able to contribute significantly to combat, even if not a Rogue. Or a Rogue without the Dex to damage feature as many posters advocate

And that does not rely only on higher AC nor on better Reflex saves in my experience


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Bardarok wrote:
I think we want fundamentally different things from the game. I think it is bad when any rules system which favors Dex or Str to the exclusion of the other. That's what the OP pointed out happens in DnD 5e.
No, I agree with that statement entirely. I very much want Str to be the equal to Dex in terms of combat options. But that's just the thing, I want them to be equal.

yes we both want them to be equal but I am against rules that make them interchangeable.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


Bardarok wrote:
You are only behind in damage by 5 points if you have a Str of 8 and leave it there. For a melee character to invest so little in Str I think they SHOULD do a whole let less damage. They made the choice to boost something other than that and get the benefits of it.
Actually, that was a mid level average for Str 10 or so. And realistically, they're behind more like 13 points of damage at high levels, and 5 points per hit even at 1st if they lose Dex-to-damage.

You posted originally in response to my suggestions of replacing Dex to damage with a static +2. Assuming you dumped Str to 8 the total difference would be 3 famage at level one increasing to 5 at lvl 20 (probably 6 with an item though actually). In order to be getting 13 points of damage you must be talking about comparing a Str based build with a d8 weapon to a finesse weapon which was not what my post was about. I was comparing fineness with Dex to damage vs finesse with 2+Str to damage.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


Bardarok wrote:
I think that dex-to-damage plus boosting Str could make them equivalent but I still then it is bad game design because they would still be exclusionary to each other leaving no room for a high Dex and high Str character.

High Dex and high Str combined definitely need an advantage, and I'm all for adding one. What I'm against is making all Rogues and other Dex-based chatracters have to do this, especially when Str-based ones mostly don't.

That's a fair point this discussion had made me realize how problematic Max dex is on armor. Honestly I feel we should just remove AC bonuses and let armor do damage reduction but that's a whole other thread and probably too much of a departure for PF2e.

Deadmanwalking wrote:


Bardarok wrote:
Said another way I think as a game design principle a character who invest all of their ability boosts into Str, Dex, and Con should be a better physical combatant than a character who only invested in two of those.
Sure, but ditching Dex-to-damage without other significant changes makes this only necessary for Dex based characters, which makes Dex the notably weaker combat stats.

Then we should look for notable changes. We'll need to look at what the devs thought up because they seem to think you can make a Dex monk, a Dex Ranger, and a Dex fighter without dex to damage. They only thought the rogue needed it. I think there are other options and they should be explored.


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The Raven Black wrote:

I really wish for a STR12 DEX18 non-ranged martial to be able to contribute significantly to combat, even if not a Rogue. Or a Rogue without the Dex to damage feature as many posters advocate

And that does not rely only on higher AC nor on better Reflex saves in my experience

I fully agree that should be a test. Though I think we should also make sure that a 12/18 is better than an 8/18 because the latter just got +4 Wisodm by moving their ability boosts over.

Verdant Wheel

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Ideas:

1. First level ability grants Rogues +2 damage with Agile/Finesse weapons. Simple enough. If a Rogue goes gung-ho on STR, then they'll have to deal with their bad AC and increased crits coming to their face due to not having good armor proficiencies. If they have high DEX and good STR, they'll be good hitters, but miss out on utility. If they take high DEX and good mental stats with middling STR, they'll be more utility focused than damage focused, but they'll still be able to Sneak Attack to compensate.

This still incentivizes all Rogues to be as thuggish (ie: low Int and Cha) as possible, which is a bad incentive. There's certainly a place for Rogues like that, but it being the singularly optimal choice is distinctly not fun for all the people who want to play clever or charming Rogues.

rainzax wrote:
Why do you think this incentive would be too strong?
Because it's a huge DPR boost and Int and Cha don't help directly with combat at all. When combat boosts compete with non-combat boosts, the non-combat ones rarely come out ahead.

Would it still be an unacceptable DPR boost if it was instead:

Finesse Striker
First level ability grants Rogues +1 damage with Agile or Finesse weapons, +1 every five rogue levels.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don’t understand why the assumption needs to be that INT and CHA can’t contribute to combat viability. They absolutely should. It should be possible for a rogue to sick things in combat utilizing skills and skill feats. In addition to the +2 scaling finesse strike, I want to see Str boost damage for a rogue, and other builds boost in and out of combat utility. CHA should be pretty easy based off what can be done with feinting and intimidate. INT might cover itself with extra skill options, but might need one or two more options. What I don’t want is 4 different attribute build options that just end up doing the same thing, or only one viable build option which is what happens if balancing these builds has to center on making sure each build ends up with an attribute replacing str for damage, and they all end up with the same DPR. In my opinion that is false build diversity.


rainzax wrote:

Would it still be an unacceptable DPR boost if it was instead:

Finesse Striker
First level ability grants Rogues +1 damage with Agile or Finesse weapons, +1 every five rogue levels.

Since there's nothing there limiting it to dex-focused/-using characters, that just encourages Muscle Rogue to use an agile/finesse weapon with high strength. Solid first draft idea though.


Well thats idea is that a str rogue would us an agile weapon I think. He gonna still need dex for a lot of things.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well thats idea is that a str rogue would us an agile weapon I think. He gonna still need dex for a lot of things.

That's not really going to change anything then? It's not like the rogue will be proficient with greatswords, so he'd probably use a beefy agile weapon even without this. It just increases the rogue's damage compared to other classes (which is already covered by Sneak Attack).


I'm confused what is the purpose you think his suggestion was meant to address?


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I'm confused what is the purpose you think his suggestion was meant to address?

I would've assumed making dex and str focused rogues comparably useful in combat, creating more versatility in builds.

Alternatively, his suggestion might be intended to encourage non-combat focuses by already covering combat, making it unnecessary to focus on combat statistics in your build. This would not work either. Giving a bonus to combat statistics only encourages further focus on combat statistics. It would be an unusual occurence for a PF1 Fighter player to say "golly gee! I don't need to get so many combat feats or enhancements to my weapons and armour. High bab, weapon spec, armor training and fighter feats make me good enough at combat :) ".


Well The idea is that instead of Dex to damage it would just be a flat damage bonus so that the rogue doesn't lag behind. IF they wanted to buff damage more they could put some into strength, but even if they don't the idea is with that damage bonus they should be able to be where they are suppose to be on damage.


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I never thought of the rogue/thief needing much in the way of damage bonuses, since Sneak Attack is the source of their damage (as Backstab is in AD&D, though, that can be too hard to set up with some DMs). Str is a nice extra, so the rogue with a bit more Str does a bit more damage, but the rogue who would rather be more into deception and what-not would invest more in Cha, and is better in social situations, or Int for a spy, or Indiana Jones type or something.


Barathos wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Would it still be an unacceptable DPR boost if it was instead:

Finesse Striker
First level ability grants Rogues +1 damage with Agile or Finesse weapons, +1 every five rogue levels.

Since there's nothing there limiting it to dex-focused/-using characters, that just encourages Muscle Rogue to use an agile/finesse weapon with high strength. Solid first draft idea though.

That's easily fixed with a "uses Dexterity in place of Strength on attack rolls" clause, which has been present in numerous PF1 options (even if recently and in splatbooks).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Barathos wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Would it still be an unacceptable DPR boost if it was instead:

Finesse Striker
First level ability grants Rogues +1 damage with Agile or Finesse weapons, +1 every five rogue levels.

Since there's nothing there limiting it to dex-focused/-using characters, that just encourages Muscle Rogue to use an agile/finesse weapon with high strength. Solid first draft idea though.
That's easily fixed with a "uses Dexterity in place of Strength on attack rolls" clause, which has been present in numerous PF1 options (even if recently and in splatbooks).

Personally, I'd rather still encourage the rogue with some points in str to keep using agile and finesse weapons. I understand your concern, but a rogue in this edition isn't going to be able to get an 18 STR at first level, so the pure STR rogue build isn't a very likely option and if the rogue is being tied to these weapons for sneak attack, it makes sense to give all rogues a bonus to damage with these weapons.


Unicore wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Barathos wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Would it still be an unacceptable DPR boost if it was instead:

Finesse Striker
First level ability grants Rogues +1 damage with Agile or Finesse weapons, +1 every five rogue levels.

Since there's nothing there limiting it to dex-focused/-using characters, that just encourages Muscle Rogue to use an agile/finesse weapon with high strength. Solid first draft idea though.
That's easily fixed with a "uses Dexterity in place of Strength on attack rolls" clause, which has been present in numerous PF1 options (even if recently and in splatbooks).
Personally, I'd rather still encourage the rogue with some points in str to keep using agile and finesse weapons. I understand your concern, but a rogue in this edition isn't going to be able to get an 18 STR at first level, so the pure STR rogue build isn't a very likely option and if the rogue is being tied to these weapons for sneak attack, it makes sense to give all rogues a bonus to damage with these weapons.

Alternatively you could offer an option at first level. +2 dex and dex to damage as it currently is OR +2 Str and you can sneak attack with any one handed weapon. We know that there is already a feat that allows you to sneak attack with maces and clubs at least.


Barathos wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Would it still be an unacceptable DPR boost if it was instead:

Finesse Striker
First level ability grants Rogues +1 damage with Agile or Finesse weapons, +1 every five rogue levels.

Since there's nothing there limiting it to dex-focused/-using characters, that just encourages Muscle Rogue to use an agile/finesse weapon with high strength. Solid first draft idea though.

Here's the balancing factor –

If you have a feature - let's call it, DAMAGE BOOST – that says "you deal an additional X damage with weapons", you are giving a +X boost to anyone looking to deal damage.

If you have a feature – let's call it, SUBSET BOOST – that says "you deal an additional X damage with SUBSET weapons", you only give an +X boost to people staying within that subset.

If Agile/Finesse weapons is the subset here, and Agile/Finesse are only weapons with 1d6 or 1d8 damage dice, which is plainly an assumption at this point, someone who goes full STR is receiving MUCH less from investment in STR than someone who gets a plain DAMAGE BOOST.

With DAMAGE BOOST, if you want to deal damage, you clearly need to go with the 1d12 two-hander to maximize output.

With AGILE/FINESSE BOOST, if you go with a 1d8 STR-based agile weapon, you only deal +1 damage over the DEX-based 1d6 alternative. Sure, that compounds as you get more weapon potency, but the DEX-based build has enough incentives to make +5 damage less appealing.

IN COMPARISON, if you simply had Sneak Attack, there'd be no incentive to stay DEX-based.

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