RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Given Alice made a point of saying she didn't actually kill Hatter, I expect he is going to return later.
Fair. I'm more making the general point though that if there's 12 new villains this season, we aren't going to get too much time with each. I'm ok with stand alone episodes for really minor ones, but nothing in that Batman vault should have been minor. If they did 6 instead, that would give them more time per villain, and they could always bring others in for future seasons.
Okay, last night's episode had a lot of flaws if you thought even remotely too hard about how the plot was working... or what the writers think of how hypothermia works...
But I love what they did with Nora Fries, in that she was finally a character with opinions and agency rather than the human popsicle plot device she has always been in most Batman stories. I always wondered about how she felt about all that happened and now I know.
If we can't have it on this show... Could we have a Mary and Alice spinoff? The show is using neither character to their full potential and what is especially sad about this is this is even what their dialogue was about.
Someone online posted a theory that Ryan's father might be Lucius Fox, making her an alt version of Tiffany "Batgirl" Fox which is interesting. Would certainly help her build additional ties with the other characters and I like the idea of Luke being her half-brother.
It would be nice to tie her more directly to the Fox/Wayne brand.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Would it be too much to have new Batwoman not jump into the middle of the bad guys and taunt them and brawl? That's not really the Bat____ MO. I know that when Arrow came out, people complained that he was too much like Batman in how he was portrayed on the show, but I expected a Bat title to be at least as much like Batman as Arrow. The whole I have an invulnerable suit and therefore don't need strategy or tactics is dumb, off character, and boring.
Joel,
I mean Kate didn't...but Ryan isn't Kate.
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While I get what you are saying--and I think the bigger issue is that the characters do not appear to think tactically, but I think this is a failing in the writing, not an intended character trait/flaw--I think it would be weird if all Bat-people had exactly the same tactics. Terry does not fight the same way Bruce does, nor does Azrael; Dick, Tim, Jason, Damien, Carrie, and Stephanie all have different styles and approaches; so do Barbara, Cassie, Stephanie (again), and Tiffany... and Bette; neither should Ryan work exactly the same Kate did, or exactly the same as any of the others. Several of the people I just named would also totally taunt someone and jump into a brawl (and others would indeed take a stealth approach).
Also, while I think they do not portray the characters approaching situations tactically well enough, there were some scenes where I think Ryan was trying to draw attention to keep the mooks away from the helpless little old ladies she was trying to rescue.
What I thought was weird is that the lead merc is clearly supposed to be some superbadass capable of taking down the lead superhero, and yet I don't think they even give her a name or provided any evidence how some rando could be so capable. It's weird to have someone appear to be in the role of a nameless mook and yet obviouly is also supposed to be the main threat of an episode. They introduce someone who could totally, with the right introduction and writing, be a recurring villain--and indeed be a new member of a Rogues Gallery specifically for Ryan--but fail to work with any of the potential they themselves set up.
Yeah, DQ is right about the whole "If you're going to make a splash as villain, have some g@&@$~n backstory or something..."
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I always feel like superhero shows like this would work so much better if the writers team consisted of at least 1 actual comic book writer, 1 gamer, and 1 five year old. The 5 year old will find any plot loophole the others overlook.
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I always feel like superhero shows like this would work so much better if the writers team consisted of at least 1 actual comic book writer, 1 gamer, and 1 five year old. The 5 year old will find any plot loophole the others overlook.
Evil Overlord Rule #12: One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Not sure my evil overlord plans needs five year old oversight...but whatever.
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Thomas, clearly you have not discussed enough plots with five year olds. They are the best analysts of any plan you can think of.
The Evil Overlord list is an oldie but goodie. And yes, I was referencing it, but I think the five year old rule is a good one to apply to writing as well.
Considering when I do my evil overlord planning it's generally "don't do what Bond Villains do.' an an axiom. But sure.
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Thomas, just read the list Tectorman posted. It's worth the time and will get you on the same page.
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Not an awful, not a great episode.
I'm starting to root for Mary to become full villain. She and Alice could join forces and take over the city. As noted, she is clearly not appreciated and there is no reason for a famous influencer/skilled medical doctor to put up with these people's BS. Yes, she has that pesky compassion and sense of ethics problem but I'm sure that could be fixed in time...
I am super bummed that we didn't see Ivy yet after Mary's strange kidnapping but I think they only started filming Ivy's episodes a few weeks ago so it was unlikely.
Also, and I am saying this especially to spite younger me earlier in this thread: I am continuing to enjoy Sophie a great deal. I still don't like how they handled Kate's departure, but Sophie has certainly turned out much better without her, and they have fleshed her out a good deal more. She is smart, capable, and has some good sense, and her vulnerabilities are well played and acted. They seemed to have dispensed with how manipulative she used to seem to be, and her growth has led her to no longer make choices that hurt other people just so she can protect herself. And OMG her and Alice as roomies... that is going to be SO much fun.
Clearly Jada is connected to Black Glove society. I'm simultaneously intrigued and yet really not keen on seeing how the writers are going to botch all this corporate espionage nonsense.
Oddly while I've read a lot of Gotham stuff over my lifetime (mind you, I hate Batman, so it's all sub-Batfamily stuff, like Nightwing, Robin, Huntress, Catwoman, Gotham Knights, etc.), I've not come across the Black Glove society before, though I know they do come from the comics. Anyone give me the lowdown?
Honestly I'm more interested to see if maybe Jada's mom is a version of Jezeebel Jett and maybe Ryan is actually a Wayne.
Black Glove Society comes from Batman RIP series. Basically an ancestor of Bruce's (also named Thomas Wayne) tries to destroy Bruce in a pretty horrific fashion. Good series by one of the better writers in DC lore, Grant Morrison.
Did that help DQ?
Thanks, Thomas! I've somehow missed out on a lot of works of Grant Morrison and clearly need to do some catching up.
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Oddly while I've read a lot of Gotham stuff over my lifetime (mind you, I hate Batman, so it's all sub-Batfamily stuff, like Nightwing, Robin, Huntress, Catwoman, Gotham Knights, etc.)...
Hey DQ!
Have you heard of the webtoon: Batman: Wayne Family Adventures by StarBite (aka Rhett Bloom) & CRC Payne?
It is fairly new (began in September 2021) & seems to be a DC-endorsed series, although it's much more light-hearted than the usual (not unlike Lil' Gotham in tone).
Also, despite its name, the main POV character is supposed to be Duke Thomas (The Signal), who has "just joined the BatFamily" & is learning to adjust to everything that that entails.
Perhaps the series will strike your fancy? If so, enjoy! If not, that's cool, too!
Carry on,
--C.
Thanks, Thomas! I've somehow missed out on a lot of works of Grant Morrison and clearly need to do some catching up.
Honestly I felt his run on Batman was far superior to what's been done before. (Even though I enjoy Court of Owls and stuff by Scott Snyder's Batman run.)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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So far this season I'm not really thrilled with how they're leaning into Alice as the victim rather than the villain. Last season, having her with some emotional vulnerabilities was fine, but this season they've turned one of the few consistently good parts of the show into a far less interesting character.
Especially when combined with Luke's plot being mostly about dealing with his PTSD rather than learning to be Batwing, it seems like they're taking away all of the fun parts of the show. I'd much rather see Luke learn how to be a superhero, even if his B plot is also dealing with having been shot. Being sidelined right away is like giving a character cool new special abilities and then immediately saying they don't work anymore.
While agree they seem to be moving away from the good parts, at least with the Black Glove society, we might get more intrigue than say with Court of Owls. Or even League of Shadows.
So my local CW station did something moronic and cut the episode off 10 minutes early. I understand the episode ended with a big twist (I think something to do with Ryan's newfound relatives), but I can't figure out what it is. Could someone post me a spoiler? I don't feel like wrestling with the CW app to watch 10 minutes.
Good episode (for this show) up until "Modern Family" interrupted the climax though. Like that we got some backstory for Montoya and that she has a history with Ivy.
DQ,
The only thing that might be twisted is Mary was also exposed to Poison Ivy. That and Jada's son (Ryan's brother) MIGHT have some very homicidal tendencies thanks to being exposed to Joker and his gas. Also apparently the Flamingo killed those people using a whip.
I got the Mary thing, they've been building that up a couple eps.
It was Jada's brother that I needed. Thank you!
Okay DQ, wasn't sure. I hadn't actually seen the episode. I just read the summary.
Joel,
I mean if we could some how upgrade Stephanie Brown from Bat-girl to Batwoman...might not be a bad idea. Or else introduce Cassandra Cain. Just some ideas tossing. But also consider she MIGHT be Arrowverse's answer to Earth-2 Huntress.
I will never like the way in which they wrote off Kate and introduced Ryan, as it both was in general bad writing and paralyzed a lot of good growth/development from other characters, and also smacked of tokenism with Caroline Dries being all "Look we hired a Black lady!" and making it more about her, a white lady, and how awesome she is that she hired a Black person (to be clear: the issue is making it about herself). Probably also wanting more money via rights to the character as well.
BUT.
This is all old news. We have what we have, and Javicia Leslie is an excellent performer. I agree I like her as a character, and especially outside of the cowl, because then she is much less "Hello, I am replacement cosplay lesbian #12." But the showrunners have done a good job of fleshing Ryan out as a person and to me, the person behind the cowl is more important. So I'm okay with things as they are right now.
The showrunners have made it crystal clear they're not going to move away from her being Batwoman in this show--and it would be a hideous thing to do to Javicia Leslie if they did (especially if they replaced her with a white woman in the name of being someone the fans would prefer more. This is the world we live in; in today's America, there is no way you could write off a Black lead on a television show to substitute her with a white person and not have there be a racial discrimination factor among both showrunner intent and fan response, even if some individuals wishing for alternatives to Batwoman are doing so based out of other motivations, like having a character they like from the comics show up or wanting storyline loops closed). It would just be an ugly situation all around (and again, needlessly cruel to the lead actress). Personally, working with the reality we live in, I would prefer she stayed as lead as Batwoman for many reasons--the show's been shook up enough, she's a good actress, and they're finally solidifying her arc and relationships with the others. She'd have to either choose to leave or... well, basically act like Ruby Rose to get kicked out or name-changed. And my sense is she is not going to do that. So she is here to stay.
Yeah I agree. Javicia and thus Ryan are hear to stay. I just offered an idea if some reason, Javicia couldn't continue in the role. I still like the idea that Ryan's biological mom is a stand-in for Jezebel Jett and MAYBE this means she and Bruce hit it off some time in the past. Thus maybe making Ryan the daughter of the Bat.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Is it just me or are they shying away from having Batwoman actually do much in this show? Sure, she suited up once but didn't actually do a whole lot. I'm not actually complaining, I liked this episode of Poison Ivy, but seems pretty weird how little they're having Batwoman do lately.
Maybe they're saving her for Flash's 5 episode arc...
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Is it just me or are they shying away from having Batwoman actually do much in this show? Sure, she suited up once but didn't actually do a whole lot. I'm not actually complaining, I liked this episode of Poison Ivy, but seems pretty weird how little they're having Batwoman do lately.
I am HERE for this being the Poison Mary and Alice show, but you have a point.
A relatively mediocre pool of writers (I expect some awful and some with some talent) is trying to juggle a LOT of plot points:
- Ryan's quest for family
-- Further subplots there with Jada's quest to help Marquis and Marquis's growth into possible villainy
- Suddenly the Wayne Corp is not just a shell corporation the team was just using for assets
- Mary's quest for being noticed/appreciated and subsequently for chewing the scenery as a new villain
- Alice's arcs of helping team Bat while contending with hallucinations
- Luke dealing with his Daddy issues and transitioning to becoming Batwing
- Sophie helping her sister and putting up with other people's BS
- and then FINALLY Team Bat needing to find the Bat Trophies which are all being used to create 2.0 versions of Batman's rogues gallery, and Montoya being brought into that.
- Oh and then also Renee's personal history with Pamela Isley is definitely also becoming a Thing We Need to Pay Attention To (she has been officially reported to be showing up after winter hiatus in Episode 8 in January, and I am *hoping* she's in the mid-season finale at the very end as a cliffhanger)
- And on the side some Sophie/Renee/Ryan love triangle fun and maybe also Luke's feelings for Mary?
So I think they sometimes forget to throw in some action scenes here and there. (This is not a defense of this situation, just an analysis). It is ultimately an ensemble series I think (of course they should have just officially veered it that way after Rose left but... I'll stop now, I'll stop) but they need to work better on focusing on a primary arc with only a few sub-arcs weaving through.
I did like the confrontation in the botanical garden (super cool set), and everyone was costumed there, the focus was just on the cool garden SFX they did for Mary. I have a feeling next episode will be more trying to talk down the Big Bad. But again, I am so very here for the Poison Mary and Alice show so I can't wait.
I'm mostly here to see if Ryan is actually Bruce Wayne's daughter...but sure.
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I'm mostly here to see if Ryan is actually Bruce Wayne's daughter...but sure.
I doubt it. I can see why that theory is out there, with Jada getting the money. But I think she's more likely Lucius's daughter, and when she loses Marquis, she'll gain Luke as a brother. Personally I hope she's not related to Bruce Wayne... vigilantism does not need to be genetic, and Bruce is a giant a&&~@*@ nobody deserves to be related to.
Maybe so but considering I thought Jada might be a stand in for Jezebel Jett and the whole Black Glove thing, it was just an idea.
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She's clearly that to some degree but perhaps the reason they changed her name was to change her connections.
I'm finding I am not interested in the Marquis thing, which is a shame because it is of course a key plot for the main character. But he feels very much the generic "I am insane and I love to kill yay!" villain you see a lot on these kind of things, and Alice is already that character and she does it way better. Also obviously they are trying to make him the nu-Joker and just... Gotham-based TV shows, stop. Just stop. Stop trying to make Joker-but-not-really. I'm so f++!ing tired of it. Use the Joker or don't, but stop making shallow puppet versions of the real thing. I mean, there's a LOT of potential with Ryan vs Marquis but he needs more of his own personality--he was interesting and likeable (and I thought, still sinister, just in a generic "I'm going to get you to trust me and then I'll steal your company" kind of way), and now he's just Manic Villain #3,452. He feels like a caricature. It's sad, and they need to do better for a new, key villain for Ryan.
I do see the parallel they are trying to build between Marquis and Mary... two people who feel "unlocked" by their encounters with villains and claim to be becoming their true selves.
Luke did some good soul searching this ep but they need to figure out what they are doing with his character; wheels are spinning on his character development. I did like he got more self-reflective.
The Mary and Alice Show still super fun and the best part of this episode.
Now IIRC a break until January and finally we can see Bridget Regan as Pam Isley! *sigh*
I'm looking forward to that, DQ.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I agree about Marquis - wanna-be jokers are about the worse choice for a villain possible.
My big question from the last episode though is: where did Mary get the materials to make the Poison Ivy outfit? At the very least they could have shown the motel shower curtain as bright green plastic (which would make for a very bad and uncomfortable outfit, but at least attempt to explain it).
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Maybe she grew them, Joel. I mean Ivy herself, many of her outfits were plant based.
Latex adjacent?
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Maybe she grew them, Joel. I mean Ivy herself, many of her outfits were plant based.If latex was a plant, I'd buy that answer. :)
Not sure if this is a joke or not, but latex does come from a tree. :)
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Along with plant-based bleaches and pigment for her hair, of course. :)
Gm,
It might be!
DQ,
Maybe she and Alice stopped off somewhere to freshen up.
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First look at Pam! (from Nicole Kang's Instagram). Squeee!
Nice! I approve. :)
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Squeeeee Bridget Regan Bridget Regan Bridget Regan Bridget Regan.
The rest of the episode is ok.
Though I kind of am wondering if the writers really just want to write the villains, because the heroes just keep doing some really dumb s@%#.
Also if *cue music*It Was Montoya all along!!! (and she revived Pam too!), does that mean she actually had a deal with Alice to use Sophie's card at the right time to get her to leave, or am I giving the writers too much credit for thinking that far ahead?
Really loved the costume design and use of color in this ep. I mean generally it is a strong point of this series, but with the party and everything it was really good.
I know the circumstances of the episode couldn't have allowed it, but with Marquis's theme for his party, I really wanted Alice to show up and do something awful to everyone, shouting, "You're nothing but a pack of cards!" I know they were using the card theme to reference the Joker but I always think of Alice in Wonderland whenever I see people dressed with card theming so it was weird to have those visuals have nothing to do with Alice.
I unfortunately didn't see it...but then again I'm planning on binge watching this season. Though I am glad that Bridget is back to work and bringing some much needed Pamela Isely love to our lives.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I fortunately didn't see it...but then again I'm planning on binge watching this season. Though I am glad that Bridget is back to work and bringing some much needed Pamela Isely love to our lives.
Fixed that for you! :)
It was great seeing Bridget, but unfortunately, the rest of the episode is the same steaming pile of mess. DQ, you're being too generous about the heroes doing stupid stuff though. I think the writers are competing to see just how stupid they can make the heroes since the bar keeps getting higher about just how stupid they can be.
Maybe the writers have been looking to Legends to see how heroes should behave and didn't notice that the other show is specifically about heroes who constantly screw things up? I mean, when an evil all powerful Furby god shows up in Batwoman maybe it will be an improvement.
I will still keep watching. I mean I haven't been rooting for the heroes since season 1 anyway so why start now?
Thomas, I'm not sure how bingeable this show is. It really is something better taken in small doses IMO, with breaks between episodes. Given it's free to watch online on the CW it's not like one has to wait for it to drop on HBO Max or whatever. Obviously you do you, just my two cents.
Joel,
That didn't need fixing...but okay.
DQ,
I guess for me, I have things on my plate during the evening that mean I can't make the time commitment I need for this show right now. Later on, down the road, sure.