Batwoman


Television

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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

The plot has been moving at a rapid pace, with less character development.

My judgement of the series is "as a CW superhero show." (IMO, Arrow hasn't been good since season 2.) Compared to plots I've seen on the other CW shows, Batwoman IMO is strong so far. Only stronger, IMO, was Black Lightning season 1.

Compared to the Marvel Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter on ABC? Sure, definitely weak.

And plotting wise perhaps less good than the Netflix series, but pacing wise much better.

I'd be curious what the particular plot points are that you consider "bad tv writing." Is it incidental stuff like "burning cyanide gas wouldn't work that way" or is it core plot twists like Mouse's dad kidnapping Beth?


DeathQuaker wrote:
I think Alice will at least change and grow into a shade of gray kind of character. Someone who might be in the Secret Six...

Hmm. Yes, that would be both interesting and plausible.


DeathQuaker

It's probably a lot easier to list the plotpoints that aren't just bizarre. The "burning cyanide gas" scene didn't make a lot of sense to me as a biochemist, but that was just a minor quibble that can be chalked up to "cinema logic". My issues with the show are much bigger.

Mouse's dad kidnapping Beth was an odd point, I agree.

Batwoman letting a certain villain go several times despite an increasing body count under her belt. I just don't see how that makes any sense despite the plot twist.

The "Where's Bruce Wayne?" conundrum that still hasn't received a satisfactory answer.

Where the plotline with a certain individual *SPOILER* impersonating another individual who is approached by a spouse about divorce. This plotline doesn't really seem like it's going to go anywhere interesting. All it will likely lead to is some confused exposition down the road.

Relationship flip-flopping. It's not a plothole, I just don't like it. I'm less of a fan of soap opera relationship woes and more of a fan of superhero antics. I don't mind some, but it has really taken a big setpiece.

The whole "Batwoman-killing gun" thing. All of it. When it's actually fired, it hits her hard enough to knock her through a brick wall and she falls several dozen feet to the ground and only has a broken rib. And to make matters worse, the only people who could repair the gun were killed... by the villains. So when things go wrong, it's just treated like a big whoopsie.

There's the big question of how Batwoman has access to all of Bruce Wayne's tech. I know from the comics that there were a lot of countermeasures in place that are DNA or retina-locked. Did all of those just vanish?

Batwoman just comes off as unnecessarily combative and paranoid about everything. Take what happened with a certain love interest. When she gets severely injured, Batwoman's response is not to take her to a hospital, it's to get her treated and more or less kidnap her since "she knows who I am". That's not very heroic behavior to me.

The amount of people who are found in places they should not be at hours that literally no one should be around. Somehow, they manage to not get called out for it. Take Batwoman in a certain agency's base of operations at midnight. She is not even questioned for being there even in her civilian persona by Sophie, never mind the other odd questions that arise from that.

I really want to like the show, there's just too much that doesn't make sense, is a bad design choice, or contradicts existing lore. I hope it picks up soon because my interest has been dropping faster for this show than even Supergirl or the last two seasons of Arrow. As it stands, Alice and Sophie are the selling points of the show. Alice, despite being completely insane, looks like she is up for big character development. Sophie is one of the few non-villains that is interesting and provides more than surface-level complexity, a trait she shares with Alice.

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Ash Raven wrote:
The whole "Batwoman-killing gun" thing. All of it. When it's actually fired, it hits her hard enough to knock her through a brick wall and she falls several dozen feet to the ground and only has a broken rib. And to make matters worse, the only people who could repair the gun were killed... by the villains. So when things go wrong, it's just treated like a big whoopsie.

That part at least was covered in the episode. Alice removed a component from the bat-killer-gun, which made it not work at full power. She's still got said component, which means she can 'fix' it whenever it becomes dramatically convenient for her to do so (presumably after everyone assumes the gun is not a threat, and she demonstrates otherwise by blowing a hole in Kate in the cliffhanger ending of the dramatic season finale or whatever).


Ash Raven wrote:
The whole "Batwoman-killing gun" thing. All of it. When it's actually fired, it hits her hard enough to knock her through a brick wall and she falls several dozen feet to the ground and only has a broken rib.

I offer the following pretzel logic/completely out of left field speculation: In the CW-verse's unchronicled version of 2003's JLA-Avengers crossover miniseries, Batman was able to obtain a sample of vibranium, which he incorporated into his batsuit to enhance its shock absorbing properties.

Or...in the CW-verse's unchronicled version of the build up to Dark Nights: Matal, that universe's analog to vibranium was one of the metals infused into Batman's body. When it was found to be slowly compromising his body's molecular cohesion, he got the Flash to help him extract it, but then incorporated it into his suit.

Do I get a No-Prize?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

You would, Damon, except Set is correct. Alice explains/shows in detail that she intentionally sabotaged the gun so it wouldn't work as intended.

As for what tech Kate has access to, it is limited to what is in the Waynetech Batcave that she has found and/or Luke, designated protector of his stuff, knows how to operate. It's already been shown he has other stuff that she isn't using or can't easily take (like the other Batman killing gun that will-be-Hush stole).

As to say why isn't it DNA locked---who's to say it isn't? Bruce may well have left some of his stuff available to his favorite cousin in case he was unable to return, and he would have known she was doing all that training.


Fair enough. The part where there was an explanation must have happened while I stepped away and got my pizza at the door. At least the reason for killing all the people who could fix the gun makes more sense now.

I am still left befuddled how the fall doesn't kill her though. She was knocked out of the building through a brick wall, which takes a lot of force, then falls quite a long way to the ground. It's a freefall too, which is different than if she used her cape to slow her fall. That's almost as bad as "Yeah, breathe in the cyanide until enough fills the room to combust it."

Maybe I'm being overly critical because there just isn't enough for me to stay distracted with. I can suspend disbelief if I am enjoying the experience up to that point, but the Batwoman show has been meh for me so far. And I say that as someone who watched the 90's recolored versions of the old Batman show which- although not as great as some remember it to be- was one of my guilty pleasures.


DeathQuaker wrote:

You would, Damon, except Set is correct. Alice explains/shows in detail that she intentionally sabotaged the gun so it wouldn't work as intended.

Sorry, I wasn't clear: I was aware of Alice's action and motivation with the gun. I was only explaining how the nerfed weapon punched Kate through a wall, to fall several dozen feet and only break a rib or two.

That's why I only quoted that part of Ash Raven's post, and not the part where he challenges the "oopsie!" logic of the villain killing the only people who could have repaired the gun.

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Ash Raven wrote:
I am still left befuddled how the fall doesn't kill her though. She was knocked out of the building through a brick wall, which takes a lot of force, then falls quite a long way to the ground. It's a freefall too, which is different than if she used her cape to slow her fall.

Yeah, body armor does crap all against falling damage, and might even exacerbate the harm you suffer due to it's weight, but whatever. Maybe it's Bat-vibranium and absorbs impact or Bat-Nth-metal and has some sort of anti-gravity properties that makes you fall slowly? :)

Quote:
That's almost as bad as "Yeah, breathe in the cyanide until enough fills the room to combust it."

Ugh, so bad! Like all those shows that say, 'We can only survive five minutes of this radiation!' and then the characters get clear of it in 4 minutes and 50 seconds *and are perfectly fine.* Gosh, good thing we didn't hang out those last 10 seconds, when it went from being 'totally harmless' to 'zap, insta-death!'

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

While I also don't like Sophie as a character, I actually think she's probably one of the most realistic characters in the show. People do that kind of stuff all the time, but it's more rare to have a comic book show have realistic relationship behaviors, so it stands out as unexpected. To me it simply enhances the morally grey set of characters in the show, from Alice to Sophie to even Kate/Batwoman struggling with secret identities and how to act as a vigilante.

I did notice in the last episode that they further referenced the time jump to skip over last year's Elseworld's cross over by now indicating it has been 6 years since Kate left Gotham not 5.

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JoelF847 wrote:
While I also don't like Sophie as a character, I actually think she's probably one of the most realistic characters in the show. People do that kind of stuff all the time, but it's more rare to have a comic book show have realistic relationship behaviors, so it stands out as unexpected.

On the one hand, I agree that she's got a messy realistic vibe to her, in that she's made some utterly regrettable choices in her life.

On the other hand, she isn't one of those hilarious 'messy' characters like Lucille Ball's character on I Love Lucy, who was always making terrible choices that led to shenanigans and hijinks. This isn't that kind of show. Sophie's bad choices don't, IMO, do anything to make the story or the character more enjoyable or relate-able or more fun, they just are annoying and make her look like a weak, crappy, contemptible person (and *she* deserves better than that, as well as everyone around her, and us, the audience).

There's a 'Chekov's gun' aspect to this, in that even a side-characters crappy personal dynamics should *add* to the story, somehow, and I don't feel like she's advancing the story, so much as holding it back.

Then again, that could be the point of Sophie. To stretch things out, like the filler ingredients added to save money by stretching out the better ingredients. She could just be there to run out the clock, which is annoying, since this show isn't on season eight or anything, and shouldn't be running out of stories to tell and need padding or clip shows or stunt casting quite yet...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Damon Griffin wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

You would, Damon, except Set is correct. Alice explains/shows in detail that she intentionally sabotaged the gun so it wouldn't work as intended.

Sorry, I wasn't clear: I was aware of Alice's action and motivation with the gun. I was only explaining how the nerfed weapon punched Kate through a wall, to fall several dozen feet and only break a rib or two.

That's why I only quoted that part of Ash Raven's post, and not the part where he challenges the "oopsie!" logic of the villain killing the only people who could have repaired the gun.

Sorry, I was just realizing I had misinterpreted. Sorry about that. Yes, the No Prize is yours! Of course, I have no authority to offer them, and they're from Marvel, but nonetheless, here's your non-trophy. :)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Set wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
While I also don't like Sophie as a character, I actually think she's probably one of the most realistic characters in the show. People do that kind of stuff all the time, but it's more rare to have a comic book show have realistic relationship behaviors, so it stands out as unexpected.

On the one hand, I agree that she's got a messy realistic vibe to her, in that she's made some utterly regrettable choices in her life.

On the other hand, she isn't one of those hilarious 'messy' characters like Lucille Ball's character on I Love Lucy, who was always making terrible choices that led to shenanigans and hijinks. This isn't that kind of show. Sophie's bad choices don't, IMO, do anything to make the story or the character more enjoyable or relate-able or more fun, they just are annoying and make her look like a weak, crappy, contemptible person (and *she* deserves better than that, as well as everyone around her, and us, the audience).

There's a 'Chekov's gun' aspect to this, in that even a side-characters crappy personal dynamics should *add* to the story, somehow, and I don't feel like she's advancing the story, so much as holding it back.

Then again, that could be the point of Sophie. To stretch things out, like the filler ingredients added to save money by stretching out the better ingredients. She could just be there to run out the clock, which is annoying, since this show isn't on season eight or anything, and shouldn't be running out of stories to tell and need padding or clip shows or stunt casting quite yet...

(Responding to the whole above conversation...)

It's also a CW show... this is supposed to be escapist fantasy, not a sociological set piece on human interaction. I want to watch Kate kick butt, take names, and then kiss all the ladies. I don't want to watch the hero mope over a b@#%& who never deserved her, and Kate certainly doesn't deserve Sophie only because Sophie behaves "realistically."

Sophie's presence in the show makes sense (and she is from the comics) to provide (hopefully temporary) tension and as a representative of the Crows. But with her personality and behaviors--she constantly lies and hurts people and refuses to own it--she should be depicted as a low-key antagonist/villain. (In a well-written pure romance rather than an action series, the codependent, wishy washy clingy dishonest ex usually is.) And if she is just supposed to be an obstacle for Kate to overcome, great. What bothers me is that it's unclear narratively if the writers want us to actually root for her, when there's literally nothing there to root for. (The one redeemable thing I can remember her doing she reversed last episode.)

Sort of like on CW's Legends of Tomorrow on the recent season where Mona and Gary were engaging in literally sociopathic behavior and yet it was written like their heinous actions were defensible and the heroes had been in the wrong toward them. Somewhere in there was an intended lesson about taking people seriously, but the degree of harm the characters caused (like, lives were taken) was never addressed appropriately.

As Set notes, if she is to be rooted for, she needs to develop some other traits or grow. Otherwise it's hard to gauge what her purpose plot-wise is.

ETA: If watching "urban superhero but all the characters are realistically well-written super messy human beings" is your bag, check out Jessica Jones on Netflix.

(I've also edited this post like 1000 times so if you saw it while it's still in the edit window it may have changed.)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Well, damn. Well, Mary is indeed The Best, so Alice has to go down, I guess. If this causes a permanent rift between Kate and Mary, my reasons to watch will go down considerably. Because if I have to choose between the two of them as to who to root for, it will be Mary, especially as Kate legit let her down on multiple levels, and when you don't care about the protagonist, a show is a lot harder to watch.

Not surprised at all what happened to Hamilton but in a way it feels like that escalated way too quickly. A by-product I am sure of them having to cram in Crisis. I always hated crossover events in comics because of how much they always end up f+%#ing up individual solo titles, and it appears it is (continues to be) the same for the TV shows. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fun to see all the heroes come together from the different shows, it's just the same it's at the loss of developments in their own show. Everything becomes about the build up to the big event--something that will then be over in a blink of an eye--rather than about the characters' own journeys, which is what sustains the reason to watch over the long term.

Speaking of, jumping from this to the chaos of Crisis is gonna be some freakin' mood whiplash. Major earthquakes in the relationships on this show and now... whoops, gotta go save the universe. (And no, I haven't been watching Flash or Arrow. Used to watch the shows originally, then got frustrated/bored with them. I will watch everyone's Crisis episode, but I recognize I will barely know what's going on. I remember the general gist from the comics and figure I'll keep up well enough. Multiverse is collapsing, have to fight to save existence, everyone eventually gets merged onto one prime Earth.)

Tyler is a good man and a good husband and deserves far, far more than the train wreck that is Sophie, and instead he will probably be killed off for dramatic purposes now that they are separating. I'd rather she get offed, he be the human connection to the Crows, and Kate get a decent girlfriend like Regan or Julia. I saw the writers post some b&+$$~@& on Twitter about "Be nice to Sophie, coming out is hard." (Which means they DO want us to root for her.) I wouldn't be surprised if every person in the writer's room was a straight person who was clueless. This is not a coming out story. This is a story about a selfish, codepedendent b%*+@ who lies to and uses people without remorse. Doesn't matter that her sexuality is one of the plot points. Coming out IS hard. I still never lied to people the way she does when I was going through that--and more to the point, I never used excuses to explain away why it would be okay for me to lie and hurt people even if I did. That's the problem with Sophie. She may have good reasons to be conflicted, but the fact that she never takes responsibility for her actions is what makes her unsympathetic. She is always blaming other people or her circumstances for why she is the way she is rather than accept and own the choices she has made (see also: theme of the episode). I have known people like her, and their using, lying ways don't change even if they come to terms with something like sexuality.

(Also, as an aside, the argument that Sophie couldn't risk coming out at Point Rock because she didn't have the means to support herself makes NO sense. Especially since she ends up leaving the military ANYWAY and goes to work for Jacob, which she wouldn't need to graduate to do. And given Jacob's role in the whole situation, it seems like she knows Jacob would hire her. And while I understand not wanting to live off your girlfriend, Kate is rich and seemed more than happy to support the two of them, and Sophie could at least have temporarily accepted the support until she found another job. Which being extremely intelligent and capable, she could have. It seems more like she just really didn't want to be with Kate, and now regrets that decision, and is blaming everyone but herself for it.)

While her crimes are obviously worse, Alice is still a better character than Sophie, because at least Alice knows who and what she is and owns it. She may blame other people for how she got there, but she still owns her own choices. I have less faith in Alice's redemption now, but am all the more intrigued by her as a villain and am interested to see where the story goes from here.


DQ, I agree with most of what you said. Alice is an interesting foe for Batwoman, kind of a female Joker. Hopefully, they will not get to kill her, as she will make a decent recurring foe.

Crisis is going to spoil some of the character development but writers are not going to leave her out anymore then Green Arrow. One thing I like from the latest episode is that her fighting style is evolving to look more like Batman or Green Arrow.


DeathQuaker wrote:
...I haven't been watching Flash or Arrow...I remember the general gist from the comics and figure I'll keep up well enough. Multiverse is collapsing, have to fight to save existence, everyone eventually gets merged onto one prime Earth.

Yep, that seems to be the gist. Interesting parallel to the original comics' Crisis: in the comics, the last five surviving Earths (-1, -2, -4, -S and -X) were merged into one; in the CW Crisis, five TV shows will [presumably] merge into a single shared universe -- currently they occupy two or three, as some have speculated that Black Lightning and Supergirl both take place on Earth-38.

Things to be aware of re: Crisis buildup in Arrow:
* Lyla has been secretly working with The Monitor "for a while now." (hardly surprising to comics fans, given both her full name (Lyla Michaels) and her A.R.G.U.S. codename (Harbinger.)

* For reasons of his own, The Monitor brought Ollie's kids, and Bronze Tiger's son, who'd been brought up by John Diggle, from 20 years in the future into present day Star City. So they've been working alongside Ollie for the past few episodes and will presumably play a role in Crisis.

* The Monitor has been sending Ollie on a series of errands, collecting this and that without being told why. Perhaps all these things will be MacGuyvered into a tower like the ones used in Crisis to accomplish the dimensional merger.

* A secondary purpose of some of these errands has been for Ollie to learn the lesson that he cannot escape his fate: he's not coming back from Crisis.

...and in Flash:
* Tom Cavanaugh has yet another identity: "Nash" Wells, who's spent some time tracking The Monitor down to kill him...but who now seems poised to become Pariah.

* Team Flash's prep for Crisis has been a lot of sad faces and Barry prepping Ralph to become Protector of Central City after he's gone. Multiple reiterations of "The Flash must die."

DeathQuaker wrote:
I have less faith in Alice's redemption now, but am all the more intrigued by her as a villain and am interested to see where the story goes from here.

If Kate really has given up on Beth, as it appears from the last episode, I can't see any sliver of motivation remaining for Alice to redeem herself. Her excuse for everything is "everyone gave up on me/abandoned me/forgot me" and Kate was the only contrary evidence. The Alice part of her doesn't want to give up control, or even share with Beth, so that last pillar of support had to be knocked out. By finally alienating Kate, Alice can shut Beth up for good.


Man oh man. All I can say is I still rooting for Kate (as she's still way more interesting than Oliver) but I can understand some of the anger here.

Also I'm not 100% sure Beth is gone...but man did Alice do a number on everyone.

As for Crisis, I think we'll see Kate meeting with Kingdom Come Bruce Wayne maybe help her get her head on straight.

Sophie though...just needs to leave Gotham.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I'm not so much *angry* about what happened between Kate and Mary... just concerned if the rift is permanent, it will affect my investment in the show. I think the development makes a lot of sense.

Alice I'm sure in many ways did what she did to "kill Beth" and make it easier for her to keep on hating/maintain her current sense of self. She has created herself (no doubt with the significant aid of some heavyhanded gaslighting by Mouse and torture by his dad) into the being she is in part by displacing all of her pain into resenting Kate and her father. When she is made aware that Kate never really gave up, that her father was tricked and truly feels sorry... then her carefully constructed house of cards that is her personal reality starts to collapse. She either has to
a) face all the awful things she's done having come to believe something that isn't actually true--which means a lot of deep soul searching and acceptance, not to mention let go of the considerable power she has, which is really hard and traumatic work... or
b)take the easy way out by deciding that Kate and Jake really are the enemy after all and she was right all along. This is the easy way out, where Alice stays in control and she loses no power and does not have to reconstruct her sense of self.

And indeed, villains always take the easy way out. So she does something to make Kate and Jake hate her, so she can then say, "See, you never really loved me to begin with and I was right all along!"

She's a complex enough character it's hard to guess where this will go in the long turn. Mouse, for example, is a key reinforcer of who Alice currently is. If he betrayed her, she would again question the reality he and she built together, and maybe even try to help Kate. Or she could fall further and further darker.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Also, thanks for the lowdown, Damon. That's helpful.


Damon can be helpful. I just read too many comics... :p

That and I still think Sophie is the wrong love choice for Kate.

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