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The writers posted on Twitter they didn't understand why everyone gravitates to the villains on their show. Of course they did this in a way that made (friendly, mind) fun of the fans. So yeah, I was apparently giving them too much credit for not realizing how badly they write the heroes. If one of them could just have some consistency to their decisions it would make it so much better.
And Sophie and Ryan are now a couple, cementing the fact that Ryan is not really supposed to be her own fully realized human character but just a clone of Kate Kane colored but Black. My worst fears have been realized, she really is just Replacement Lesbian #472. Both characters deserve better--especially since Sophie has actually had some really good character development overall and deserve to be with someone who consistently treats her with respect and dignity, which Ryan does not. The saddest part is most queer female watchers will still adore it and eat it all up because they are so desperate for representation. And I just want to see Ryan be someone other than Really Kate, but Tacked on with a Different Backstory so You Don't Notice As Much. (The similarity is in personality and generally how horribly they treat their friends/family members/allies).
This said I enjoyed Sophie a lot this episode--I'm really starting to think they should have just made her Batwoman and focused the show on her growth since that's something they actually did well. Mind you, as a performer Javicia Leslie is great; Ryan is just frustrating. Ryan's character--like Kate's--seems to primarily be "I will treat everyone around me badly, realize I am wrong, apologize, and then go back to treating them badly." Which is actually the personality type of an abuser.
Luke's arc was good, and I'm glad to see his arc come full circle. The seen with---Diggle!---was really good. Diggle's role in the story, as a friend of Jada's but also clearly knowing Lucius Fox well really further makes me think Lucius is Ryan's dad. He knew Jada when she got pregnant and seemed to be interacting with all of them at the same time. I believe Diggle's appearance is also setting him up for a future series where he may or may not be made a Green Lantern.
This episode was fun at least with the horror tropes, and subverting them.
Montoya wasn't handled well... after setting her up as a brilliant mastermind last episode, she is reestablished as making things up as she goes along and having some inexplicably unrealistic expectations about Pam (although it is in character for her for this series). So we can chalk her temporary evil/brilliance to sacrificing character on the altar of plot, a great CW tradition.
It's still worth watching it all just to see Bridget Regan as Pam. And of course Alice and Mary are highlights of the show as they have been since season 1. But as they solidify Ryan, Luke, and Sophie as the core lead team (I don't know if Mary will return to the fold), they really need to make Ryan less prickly/standoffishly Kate-like and allow the three of them to make smarter decisions. Yes, heroes have to have flaws, but if that's all they have...
Then, writers, that's why everybody roots for the villains, where at least their flaws become fun to watch.
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Some times I think the CW writers need like a creative writing course or something...
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As an English major who's taken creative writing courses (BA concentration was in writing)... I can say I am pretty sure the writers have also gotten a similar background (and those qualifications likely got them hired). But a) taking classes does not necessarily make you a good writer (I have plenty of training but still struggle with designing a solid plot arc), and b) sometimes you don't get the right training. Especially with the romance-heavy aspects of the plot, I expect the writers are not trained in or experienced with genre fiction from a writer's perspective (even if they may be genre, e.g., sci fi or comic book, fans). And while you need to write an action hero to also be a human being with flaws, they don't seem to know how to manage both sides of things. Indeed a lot of heroes on CW shows seem like they are two different character--in the action scenes they are a certain kind of action character construct and in another they are a certain kind of romance novel construct. They don't feel whole. I think that's why they are better at villains--because the villains' flaws directly tie into their role as a villain, they write them better as whole people.
And while it may not improve everything, I always stand by the statement that before you write any show where people have superhuman abilities or beyond-normal prowess in fighting... you should GM roleplaying games, at least one module's worth if not more. When you effectively become pitted against how another mind, who is only in control of one character, comes up with how to use their powers--and moreover, how that will inevitably ruin the plot you so carefully crafted--you in turn learn to write characters with powers/super-skills, on both the hero and villain side, much better and much smarter. (I can't write a plot arc well, but being a GM has definitely made me much better at it, and at coming up with both effective obstacles for heroes as well as how they overcome those obstacles, far more so than any class I ever took in writing.)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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DQ, I get what you're saying, but the show would be 10 times better if Ryan was more of a Kate clone. At least Kate's Batwoman was competent as batwoman, knew and understood tactics and misdirection.
From this episode, I really want to know why Ryan wasn't in the batsuit the entire time they were in the woods - seems like when you're going against a super powered villain that would be an advantage.
As for Diggle, in case you haven't seen the other thread about it, CW has announced they're developing a new Arrowverse show staring him, called Justice U where he's leading a team of 5 college freshmen aged heroes to develop them into the heroes they have the potential to be. Presumably, his GL box plot line would get resolved there, as the GL show on HBO Max in development hasn't mentioned him at all (though crossovers seem possible?)
I for one want some GL in the Arrowverse some how.
I’m not sure where the “format change” talk is coming from. I’ve only encountered it in two forums.
Not sure how likely that makes it
All the reports I’ve seen have said NexStar Media is still the front runner. It’s also important to note this isn’t an out and our sale, but a majority stakeholder sale. Both Warners and Viacom would retain shares, which one expects would require provisions like first look options for programming.
Well I guess we'll see when the chips fall/cards are dealt.
Sure, but the one thing is being reported in Variety and Forbes the other is being shared by randos on web forums who never seem to get around to repeating where they heard it from when directly asked.
So let’s not pretend they’re both opinions of equal merit when one is sourced reporting and the other seems to elude pages of google results.
I'm not pretending ANYTHING. I'm just saying "We don't know the future and it could change." Therefore, let's wait and see.
DQ, I get what you're saying, but the show would be 10 times better if Ryan was more of a Kate clone. At least Kate's Batwoman was competent as batwoman, knew and understood tactics and misdirection.
On this show, though? I recall Kate doing some really dumb stuff too, especially when it came to Alice, some of which was not explainable away by having a blind spot related to her being her sister. (And they are making Ryan as stupid about Marquis, which makes NO sense because she's known him for maybe two weeks? At least the thing with Kate and Beth was that they shared a life for 13 years.)
From this episode, I really want to know why Ryan wasn't in the batsuit the entire time they were in the woods - seems like when you're going against a super powered villain that would be an advantage.
Meta-wise, it was because they were prioritizing creating visuals typical to a horror movie. But they need to leave the pop culture homages to Legends of Tomorrow.
I suppose otherwise they were traveling to the park incognito, but Ryan should have changed as soon as they passed the entry gate.
As for Diggle, in case you haven't seen the other thread about it, CW has announced they're developing a new Arrowverse show staring him, called Justice U where he's leading a team of 5 college freshmen aged heroes to develop them into the heroes they have the potential to be. Presumably, his GL box plot line would get resolved there, as the GL show on HBO Max in development hasn't mentioned him at all (though crossovers seem possible?)
I knew he was slated to re-appear in something new but I didn't know the deets. Thanks.
Yeah but while we “wait and see” let’s limit our discussion factual statements and verifiable claims rather than putting forward rumors that we’ve heard.
Whatever. I'm going to sit here and listen to DQ wax poetic about Batwoman.
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Leaves of three, let me
Be entangled in viney
joy, Bridget Regan
:)
Meh, this poetry moves me not.
I'm touched by it.
Simple pleasures I guess
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Well, I guess that was going to be as good as it was going to be. I wish there had been more time between Mary and Ivy, really do more with getting into each other's heads. But it was fun to watch the final fight and I liked that it wasn't about brute force interaction but using sneakiness and tactics which we need to see more of.
So Gotham never heard of a fish ladder?
Also wouldn't flooding the industrial sector put MORE pollutants into the water and soil?
I love that Montoya's serum looked like pepto bismol.
Ending of the Ivy plot was... okay. I'm glad she lives to murder in the name of Mother Earth again. It's a shame there wasn't a lot of growth/development in her and Montoya's relationship. It's basically all "choose between me or genocide!" "But why can't it be both?" and not much else. (Me, I'd choose Vicki Cartagena without missing a beat, but what do I know?) My biggest disappointment is that I really wanted Montoya to be a regular part of the cast and maybe eventually become the Question. Ah well. She is kind of a fun grey-area-but-on-the-good-guys-side kind of character.
Now we're back to the corporate drama and the sudden family stuff I really don't care much about. (Also, Batwoman is a vigilante, it doesn't matter what public opinion says about her; she's still a criminal anyway.) This said, Robin Givens is really freaking good. I prefer Jada as a villain vastly to Marquis. He's just incredibly two dimensional. If the focus remained on Jada it would be much better.
I'll probably watch to the end of the season--after all there's always the Mary and Alice show to enjoy--but I was mainly here for Ivy (and for Mary getting her moment) and it's gonna take seeing some real shifts in the heroic crew actually not being terrible to each other all the time to make me want to keep watching. Yes they SAY they will change but we'll see.
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Oh wait. I know what happened to Gotham dam's fish ladder. Green Arrow stole it to do his exercises on. ;)
(Also I've been doing some reading and apparently fish ladders are only so effective and a lot of fish don't make it through, which is sad.)
Honestly I always wondered if fish ladders were ever a thing beside being on Sasuke/American Ninja Warrior.
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And just like that - season 3 is thankfully over. More Batwoman not doing a lot of Batwoman stuff, and then when she does, it's silly:
"bring the blimp down so I can get to it"
"I can't move it closer, my control over it is broken"
"Ok, I guess I'll just get to it myself" Shoots grappling gun hundreds of feet if not more to where the blimp is and gets on board.
Why did they need to control the blimp to get it close in the first place then?
And it ended with everyone happily ever after, which is good since it's not yet been renewed for season 4. Hopefully it won't be.
Aw, I actually thought the season finale was pretty good, at least by this show's own standards. Joel I think you and I agree at least 80% on much of this show but for this episode, I actually felt like Ryan's Batwoman was at her Batwomaniest here. She went on her own (but supported by her team), had some decent fight moments. No, Ryan isn't as tactical as Kate. That is good. They already make her too damn close to Kate. Kate was trained to be a Marine and Ryan was a street fighter. Ryan should not think like a Marine; also, that's what Sophie is there for, and fills that role well. Ryan needs to be her own character. I don't need every person in a bat-cowl to be pathologically analytical about things.
Why did they need to control the blimp to get it close in the first place then?
I think they were trying to get it close enough to the tallest building in the city so she could board; they only had loose control of it so if she wasn't able to get close enough to climb in, he could at least get her within the (appropriately comic book ridiculous) length of her grapple gun (he had mentioned he was only going to be able to get it so close).
The way Jada was talking about Lucius I am damn certain he is Ryan's dad.
I hate all these shows' efforts to make not-Jokers (I hated Jerome on Gotham too) but Marquis was at least at his best as a villain in this ep before that arc closed.
Liked Mary finally using her voice. And girl, you take that champagne.
Rachel Skarsten KILLED it in Alice's part here and given she has been one of the main draws of this story for me consistently since season 1, I loved where they took her.
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I completely agree that Alice is wonderful - the only consistently good character in seasons 2 and 3.
But, I do wonder how she'll evolve as a character if the show continues. Sure, they can use a lot of season 4 to show her struggle to recover, but they need to eventually have the payoff of her doing so. Then what? As her fantasy a few episodes showed, it's not like she'd going to just get free to live her life, she'll still be on the run from law enforcement. And if she's recovered and more rational, will she be a character that's as interesting?
Also from the finale, I was super annoyed and sick of Sophie's "I don't want you going into danger, cause we're dating and I worry about you" schtick. She's dating a superhero, that's their job, it's dumb to say in the first place, and it's annoyingly dumb when it's every single time she goes out as Batwoman.
In the comics (which I am not deeply familiar with,* I've just read about it), Alice changes with the aid of therapy and time into Red Alice, a more antiheroic character who certainly looks like she could still be really interesting (pretty much probably like the way we saw her this season but less murdery).
If season 4 happens, I expect she may be not be in every episode but be away for a bit and then come back at an appropriate dramatic moment to save the day.
As for the consequences of her actions, setting aside comic book conveniences, I can imagine with adequate therapy and a good lawyer, if she turned herself in for current charges, she might be able to get a plea deal with a mental health clause where she may be able to go out on probation. In other words, a slightly more realistic version of what she fantasized about--she doesn't go scott free, but she doesn't get sent back to Arkham. Which could then become a plot point: what can she try to do to help the team/accomplish what she wants without violating terms of her probation. There would probably be an inevitable moment where she is supposed to meet with a caseworker/parole officer but nearly misses or misses the meeting because she needs to save someone or something.
(* I don't know *why* I didn't get into Batwoman as I think I'd like it but when it was first starting out I guess I wasn't interested in adding to my pull list or something.)
Also from the finale, I was super annoyed and sick of Sophie's "I don't want you going into danger, cause we're dating and I worry about you" schtick. She's dating a superhero, that's their job, it's dumb to say in the first place, and it's annoyingly dumb when it's every single time she goes out as Batwoman.
On one hand, that's the only way CW writers know how to write girlfriends.
On the other hand, as Ryan was kind of doing the same thing to Sophie in previous episodes, Sophie may have been doing it to give Ryan a taste of what it feels like.
The final scene suggests another Solomon Grundy.
The one from Gotham and the one from Stargirl might end up fighting.
Only if they some how crossed dimensions...
So I guess we know the answer...
Oh well. I had hopes for this show...but I think with CW in flux and shows that aren't having a strong ratings draw...this makes sense.
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Probably for the best, sadly. And they ended the show well--knowing renewal wasn't a certainty, they did a good job wrapping everything up well enough at the end of the season. At least I got to see Bridget Regan as Poison Ivy! If Warner Brothers has any sense (and I realize I just typed a ridiculous phrase there), they will cast her again if Gotham City Sirens ever comes to fruition (which rumors occasionally suggest it could).
It is sad as the show, despite wild ups and downs and some goofy writing decisions, had some potential, and moreover an incredible cast. I especially need to see Rachel Skarsten in something else (preferably as another villain) but everyone, Camrus Jansen, Nicole Kang, Javicia Leslie, Meghan Tandy deserve roles where more people can see them shine.
I am intrigued by the upcoming Gotham Knights series which is probably part of why the show got cancelled... it's a new opportunity to work with the same/similar universe but without a lot of the baggage the show unfortunately got burdened with (as in externally with the Ruby Rose drama and whatnot).
Yeah the Ruby Rose drama made for this show to be...less than it could have been some times.
As for Gotham Knights...we'll see. I remain skeptical that CW will keep ANY of the DC shows beyond Flash for one more season.
I mean I liked the first season...but then we had the whole Ruby Rose drama followed by the hatred...and then 3rd season being uneven.
i'm a generally a nice guy...and I figure being generous to this show that COULD have run to at least 5-6 season is being nice.