Batwoman


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Don't worry PDK. I didn't notice.

Also I dunno if Luke is playing discount Chidi so much as he's clearly not yet channeled his inner Luke enough to be...well like Batwing for starters.

Gotham is always hard to keep track of the players, even when it's just in the Bat-universe. I'm just glad I knew a little before the series started so I'm less lost than some others.


Pennyworth is blowing my mind these days. Loving it big time!

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Feels to me like each episode is better than the last. I'm getting really interested in Alice's story (no DQ, you? Fascinated by a witty blonde psychopath named for a storybook heroine? Do tell). Oh, she's an awful person, but she's clearly complex and conflicted more than she lets on, and I love that kind of character and storytelling. That scene where she finds Kate's search map was intriguing. Perhaps that feeds into why she saved Kate.

Kate is growing on me. Someone on another site pointed out that her sometimes wooden-ness may be a result of her trying to do an American accent (I think she's Australian?). She seems to be getting better at overcoming both obstacles as the series carries on. I am finding I am rooting for her more and more. And I like her chemistry with Regan the Bartender. Sadly it may mean Regan gets killed soon, since she seems a bit of a throwaway character (hope I'm wrong). But I'm frankly more interested in Kate with her than with Sophie. It was enjoyable to watch Sophie suffer in the mess of her own making this episode. I hope she's not endgame for Kate; Kate can do so much better (and indeed, I hope we get Montoya eventually).

Love the new ("true") costume though the timing of exactly when they did the upgrade felt really weird. Everyone's dying and trapped in elevators, let's go take an hour or two to spruce up the costume. Seems like Luke should already at least have had it fixed up by then, and maybe even done some of the redesign as a concession to saying that he now believes she really should wear the costume.

Everything else worked for me, though. (Well, also, elevators don't work that way, but I'm assuming Elliott had them custom designed into death elevators.)

And wow... so we're getting Hush. Oh yeah, I expect we'll see Tommy again. I hope they do him justice.

Mary is becoming one of my favorites. Really love the two sides to her and how more obvious it is becoming that her "influencer" persona is just that.

And y'all were right. Luke is growing on me. He's getting a little less nervous nancy and growing into his own role.


DQ,

Ruby Rose is Australian, yes. However this is not her first time struggling with an American accent as Elseworlds showed us. I do think though she's starting to over come it.

I fully expect Hush to be done justly for the sake of comic fans.

I'm a tad...ambivilant about Alice/Beth in this show...but only because the one in the comics was a kind of a nice pastiche of Joker meets the Mad Hatter. This ones feels a little less than that. But still intriguing, no question.

Also, told you about Luke. Just give him time, and he'll don some Batwing threads too! :)

But yes, of all the supporting cast that wasn't in the comics, Mary is the clear winner here.

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I've read that Mary is this show's take on Bette Kane (whose full name is Mary Elizabeth). Step-sister instead of cousin (or niece, if you want to go Golden Age), which works as I think they're trying to keep the number of Kate's actual blood relatives low. And it would be confusing to have both "Bette" and "Beth."

I think comics-Alice's dialogue would be a lot harder to pull off in a live action show. She is working for the genre and tone they are going for--just the right level of zany, with some lovely scenery nibbling by Skarsten, but enough humanity she is legit interesting as a person and not just a "supervillain."


Ah. Well I do remember Bette Kane (ask Flame Bird for a time). I never recalled her first name as Mary though. But okay! This feels even better.

And yeah, you're right. For TV, that kind of dialogue would be hard to pull off in the right context, especially for a super hero show.


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I'm trying, and failing, to see Bette Kane in Mary. No insult to Mary that to me she's not pre-Crisis Betty Kane (Bat-Girl) or post-Crisis Mary Elizabeth "Bette" Kane (Flamebird), but it's not a connection I would ever have made, and if that's what the showrunners are going for, color me baffled.

Honestly, Mary's probably the closest thing we'll see to the Bruce Wayne persona in this show: by day seemingly a shallow idle rich partier, by night secretly doing something worthwhile.

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Damon Griffin wrote:

I'm trying, and failing, to see Bette Kane in Mary. No insult to Mary that to me she's not pre-Crisis Betty Kane (Bat-Girl) or post-Crisis Mary Elizabeth "Bette" Kane (Flamebird), but it's not a connection I would ever have made, and if that's what the showrunners are going for, color me baffled.

Honestly, Mary's probably the closest thing we'll see to the Bruce Wayne persona in this show: by day seemingly a shallow idle rich partier, by night secretly doing something worthwhile.

I don't know, we got Superman in season 2 of Supergirl, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see Bruce/Batman in season 2 or 3 or Batwoman.


Joel,

Well technically we'll see Bruce Wayne of Batman Beyond universe...so that KIND OF counts...


JoelF847 wrote:
I don't know, we got Superman in season 2 of Supergirl, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see Bruce/Batman in season 2 or 3 or Batwoman.

Who plays Supes in Supesgal?

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GM PDK wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I don't know, we got Superman in season 2 of Supergirl, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see Bruce/Batman in season 2 or 3 or Batwoman.
Who plays Supes in Supesgal?

Tyler Hoechlin, who is amazing at the role. YMMV, but I prefer him to Cavill. I think they were hoping to spin him off into a Lois and Clark style series raising their kid (last time we saw them, Lois was pregnant, and they were leaving for Argo City, away from yellow suns, so the birth wouldn't hurt Lois). Not sure if that was really true or just fan speculation.

Unpopular opinion, but I hope they keep Bruce Wayne away from this series for a good while (Elseworlds/Crisis versions possibly excluded). I admit I am heavily biased as I love everything about the Batverse except Batman himself... Loathe the dude. Yes, he's necessary as he's a lynchpin of the universe, but I only tolerate his existence as such. I really like that part of this premise is a Post-Bruce Gotham and hope they keep it that way for awhile. I know fan sentiment is largely counter to mine, and CW showrunners tend to bow to fan pressure, so I am fully prepared to be disappointed.


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I am a fan of 70's, pre-TDKR Batman. There is a lot I don't like about directions Batman has been taken since then, in comics and especially in movies. I won't go into it all here; it's a long list. I still think of myself as a Batman fan, though.

That said, I don't want to see Batman or Bruce Wayne in Batwoman. I don't even want to see him in Crisis unless, as DQ mentioned, it's Batman from a different Earth. This is Kate's show and needs to remain unsullied. She's not a placeholder for Batman's eventual return. Bruce skipped out, Kate stepped up, and even a guest appearance by Bruce would feel like a step back.

Also, while I was fine with Superman making a couple of brief appearances on Supergirl, I hated the way they were handled. Yes, it's Kara's show. No, Clark should not have swooped in to save the day when Kara couldn't handle something. So far so good. But that mewling, subservient "Gosh, Kara, you were always stronger than me" b+$#%$#* really stuck in my craw. Given that they both have to hold back most of the time, there should usually be no discernible difference in strength levels between them; they should be equal in power for most purposes. If they really have to test their ultimate limits, I feel like Superman should edge out Supergirl simply due to his greater muscle mass: he should be storing more solar energy.

...remember Batgirl? This a song...er, thread about Batgirl.

So, yeah, I guess I'd also be worried about what they'd decide to turn Bruce/Batman into in order to make it clear to the casual viewer that he might be the OG, but he's not better. He just has more mileage.


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I'm fascinated by those sentiments. I love the deeply flawed Batman of the 90s and 2000s Bat family. Mostly I love the family, but none of that psychology works without the various ways in which they stand in the Shadow of the Bat. If anything, I find Kate to be stronger in the comics when Bruce says, "I'm Batman, you're not. Go home." And then she just goes and does her thing. Of all of the Bat family, Kate is the least co-dependent with Bruce compared to the many Robins and Batgirls.


Damon Griffin wrote:

...remember Batgirl? This a song...er, thread about Batgirl.

Batwoman, dammit.


I didn't read Batwoman. 52/Infinite Crisis/Final Crisis was for me the start of a spate of dissatisfaction with DC, so I was dropping titles rather than picking up new ones. Batwoman brought additional diversity to comics, so if I hadn't been on my way out DC's door, so to speak...

I also missed Stephanie Brown's run as Batgirl a few years later. Maybe "skipped" would be a better word; I was aware of it but was pretty well divorced from DC by then. I'd enjoyed her as the Spoiler, but wasn't yet ready to give DC my money again.

(As a separate issue, one of the things I've grown to dislike about Batman is the sheer size of the extended Batman Family, including a global franchise -- Batman, Inc. -- and more recently an entire Dark Multiverse.)


DeathQuaker wrote:
GM PDK wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I don't know, we got Superman in season 2 of Supergirl, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see Bruce/Batman in season 2 or 3 or Batwoman.
Who plays Supes in Supesgal?

Tyler Hoechlin, who is amazing at the role. YMMV, but I prefer him to Cavill. I think they were hoping to spin him off into a Lois and Clark style series raising their kid (last time we saw them, Lois was pregnant, and they were leaving for Argo City, away from yellow suns, so the birth wouldn't hurt Lois). Not sure if that was really true or just fan speculation.

Unpopular opinion, but I hope they keep Bruce Wayne away from this series for a good while (Elseworlds/Crisis versions possibly excluded). I admit I am heavily biased as I love everything about the Batverse except Batman himself... Loathe the dude. Yes, he's necessary as he's a lynchpin of the universe, but I only tolerate his existence as such. I really like that part of this premise is a Post-Bruce Gotham and hope they keep it that way for awhile. I know fan sentiment is largely counter to mine, and CW showrunners tend to bow to fan pressure, so I am fully prepared to be disappointed.

Holy cow!! the kid from Perdition with Tom Hanks?! he was great back then... I gotszzzz to thcheckszz this out now! O_O O_O O_O


How would the fact that Albert being Batman's real dad - with Martha Kane still being his mom, of course - change the family dynamic between Batman and Batwoman?


GM PDK wrote:
How would the fact that Albert being Batman's real dad - with Martha Kane still being his mom, of course - change the family dynamic between Batman and Batwoman?

Who is Albert?

If you mean Alfred the faithful butler, that just seems...odd, and it should have no effect on any dynamic between Bruce and Kate.

If you mean kate's dad Jacob Kane, then [where did "Albert" come from?, and] that would seem to suggest that Jacob impregnated his own sister, before or after she married Thomas Wayne. So that's even weirder.


I think PDK has the same problem I do with some names...but yes I think he meant Alfred. And yes it would be weird for Alfred to be Bruce's BIOLOGICAL dad. But really he's been a surrogate father to him for much of the comics.

Also I think he's suggesting that while Jacob Kane (whom Martha is his sister) would be Bruce's uncle, I think he was thinking about how it might alter the dynamic about Bruce finding out he's not REALLY a Wayne.

But honestly, I don't see that affect the Bat-family. Unless Lucius Fox or someone else found out.

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GM SuperTumbler wrote:
I'm fascinated by those sentiments. I love the deeply flawed Batman of the 90s and 2000s Bat family. Mostly I love the family, but none of that psychology works without the various ways in which they stand in the Shadow of the Bat.

My main issue is the level of arrogance he often showed. I am also biased because a lot of my favorite characters were gray-area heroes like Helena Bertinelli/Huntress with whom he clashed, and made a lot of stupid hypocritical assumptions about (which then bad writers who didn't do their research then based their characterization on Batman's opinion [as written by another writer] rather than the character's own history and development).

(For example, there is an issue of Detective Comics where Huntress returns to Gotham, and of course Batman is all "Grr Argh My City Blah Blah Blah." He doesn't like that she is ruthless and most of his arguments with her are are "Grr Argh Ruthless Blah Blah Blah." [Never mind that in her prior stories she's fighting real-world-based criminals like drug and gun runners and protecting kids from predation while he's fighting murderer clowns who would never exist without him and people with funky hat and umbrella fetishes.] The big moment comes where a criminal is strapped to a delicately wired bomb that is powerful enough to do damage to a square city block or so. Huntress wants to throw the criminal into the ocean where when only he is killed and lives are protected. Batman insists on trying to disarm the bomb to save everyone, the criminal included, even though failing to disarm it in time (and of course they have like one minute tops) would get everyone killed. Of course, Batman disarms the bomb "because he's Batman." He's furious with her because she was willing to let the one bad guy die (even though doing so absolutely guaranteed saving hundreds of innocents); she's furious with him because he arrogantly risked hundreds of innocent lives simply to prove a point to her about the "preciousness of all life" (not to mention saving a man who was wanting to die doing what he had planned).

The story itself was okay, and addresses a delicate moral quandary that doesn't necessarily have an easy answer.

But the problem with it was after this story, Huntress was characterized as someone who always was willing to kill as the quickest answer, which was not how she had been characterized in that story or even in her own pretty damn gritty monthly series prior. She tried to save lives, but she was far more pragmatic about who was worth taking risks for, and not afraid to let a criminal die.

And this is just one example. And Batman was and still often is characterized as "always right" about such issues even when he really, really wasn't/isn't. Both in the narrative and metanarratively I hated how infallibly Batman was treated (and is treated to a large extent.) Heck, I have my issues with it, but it might have been the Justice League film where I at least enjoyed Batman's character for the first time in a long time as someone who had recognized he screwed up and was trying to do better. (Mind we still have to ignore how utterly stupid and arrogant he was in BvS, but there's a lot that has to be ignored in that movie.)

Yes, as I mentioned his presence is crucial for everyone else's characterization and origins in some cases, but he still can just go f&*~ himself. I think this is why I like Batwoman's world. His influence on the world is there and acknowledged and is a big part of things, but he himself is not there, so it's the best of all Gotham worlds.

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If anything, I find Kate to be stronger in the comics when Bruce says, "I'm Batman, you're not. Go home." And then she just goes and does her thing. Of all of the Bat family, Kate is the least co-dependent with Bruce compared to the many Robins and Batgirls.

It will be interesting if they DO bring in Bruce, how they address their relationship--are they going to repeat that conflict (and her ignoring them) or have him give her his blessing or something else?

Damon Griffin wrote:


(As a separate issue, one of the things I've grown to dislike about Batman is the sheer size of the extended Batman Family, including a global franchise -- Batman, Inc. -- and more recently an entire Dark Multiverse.)

I have mixed feelings about the size of the world. I like a lot of the characters that come out of it. I think the issue as mentioned above is maybe "all the Robins and Batgirls." They become a bit cookie cutter for all that they try to make them stand out. Although a lot of time what they become after they leave his shadow is where things get interesting. Nightwing is hella more interesting than original-flavor-Robin and had some great stories. And Oracle is miles ahead of Batgirl (and I am STILL furious they wrote Oracle out of existence, even though it's been over 10 years now, I think). Batgirl got shot by the Joker. Oracle, with no functioning legs, beat him within an inch of his life. Another good reason why exploring a post-Bruce Gotham is a good one. His associates also become better without him.

And I preferred Spoiler and felt it was a step backwards to make her Batgirl. I like a lot of the Gotham originals--the ones not named for the Bat or a Robin--Spoiler. Huntress. (Even though obviously the first Huntress was literally related to the Bat.) I think Misfit counts (although actually she started off masquerading as Batgirl, so.). A lot of the villains and gray area folks--Catwoman is key (and a longtime favorite).

GM PDK wrote:
Holy cow!! the kid from Perdition with Tom Hanks?! he was great back then... I gotszzzz to thcheckszz this out now! O_O O_O O_O

Do note quality of "Supergirl" goes up and down quite a bit. The first season was on CBS also and has a very different feel than the later CW seasons. Season 3 is particularly abysmal (though might be necessary to watch for certain episodes.

GM PDK wrote:
How would the fact that Albert being Batman's real dad - with Martha Kane still being his mom, of course - change the family dynamic between Batman and Batwoman?

I assume you're referring to a development in Pennyworth where Alfred macked on Martha (MAARRRTHAAAA!). It would be weird as f#$! for Bruce--he'd feel hurt and lied to I expect. The father whose death he lived to avenge wouldn't be his father to some extent. And Alfred just let him live that lie? Doesn't seem likely, and really messy and chaotic. OTOH, maybe in the universe we're working with, that's why he stops being the Bat? He leaves to assess his life choices and self-identity. And thus paves the way for Kate. (As an aside however, IIRC Pennyworth is not in the Arrowverse so the idea is probably irrelevant to the events in Batwoman.)

But working hypothetically I don't think it'd affect Kate or her relationship with Bruce much. They'd still be blood relatives, and he'd still have affection for her from his looking after her when she was younger. Kate might be a bit annoyed at Alfred for lying and or drawing her aunt into an affair (unless her relationship with Thomas was loveless, but that's not usually how their marriage is portrayed), but I don't think it would affect her work either.

A good question though is where is Alfred in this world? No Bruce can be explained by a lot of things. Is Alfred with him? Did he die? Is that why Bruce is gone? Has it occurred to Kate to contact Alfred to determine Bruce's whereabouts?


i'm hoping we get a good satisfying answer as to where Bruce is. I can't stand a batman who just bails and is on permanent vacation. If he's pulling some kind of Ollie here where he's been pulled to another earth to help stop some super crisis... then fine.

If he's just hanging out drinking tea in Italy... that's insanely lame.

Also curious what the story will be on the sidekicks. Is there a Batgirl in this earth? Robin has been name dropped, how many of them are there?

I have a feeling this will be the kind of show that buries itself with its own easter eggs and ends up painting itself in a corner.


Phantom,

I HOPE they don't paint themselves into a corner. That was kind of the reason I hoped Gotham would do it's own thing.

As for where is Alfred? Maybe he died and that's why Bruce left the mantle...

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I've read rumors that the Titans from the DC Universe show will show up in Crisis (most likely from another Earth). However, since a likely outcome of Crisis is that multiple Earths will be merged, it's possible that Robin from Titans could wind up as one of the former Robin's from Earth-1.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Yes, as I mentioned his presence is crucial for everyone else's characterization and origins in some cases, but he still can just go f@*$ himself.

LOL! That's...a perfectly fair assessment of Batman these days.

He wasn't always so insufferable, though (when properly written) he has always been deeply damaged.

DeathQuaker wrote:
I have mixed feelings about the size of the world. I like a lot of the characters that come out of it. I think the issue as mentioned above is maybe "all the Robins and Batgirls." They become a bit cookie cutter for all that they try to make them stand out. Although a lot of time what they become after they leave his shadow is where things get interesting.

Granted, and I like many of the individuals in the Batman Family, I just often wish there weren't so damn many of them. Yes, I think excluding Carrie from TDKR, you can count five Robins (plus a bonus Red Robin), two Batwomen and as many as five Batgirls? Nightwing, good. Spoiler, good. Damien Wayne, awful. The Signal? Pass. I have a knee-jerk antipathy toward Batwing (and Batwing), but it's based solely on "God, not another Bat!" as I haven't read anything with David Zavimbe or Luke Fox in that role.

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phantom1592 wrote:

i'm hoping we get a good satisfying answer as to where Bruce is. I can't stand a batman who just bails and is on permanent vacation. If he's pulling some kind of Ollie here where he's been pulled to another earth to help stop some super crisis... then fine.

If he's just hanging out drinking tea in Italy... that's insanely lame.

LOL, I think I'm the only person in the world who liked the ending to that movie. I felt like he deserved a break after the specific events of that film and go try to live a life for a bit, and Anne Hathaway is hot. And it felt to me like both would return to adventuring when needed later.

But I don't think that's what's going on here, anyway. The implications are that whatever is keeping him away are bigger than that. This past episode was took pains to establish that--that if Bruce was able to come back, this is the kind of situation that would pull him back, and he's not here, so ergo what's drawn him away is something he can't extract himself from. I don't think Luke would discuss Bruce's absence in the way he does if Bruce is just off getting his rocks off with Selina somewhere.

It's clear whatever has happened to him is something dire or important. He could indeed be in another universe. He could have been severely injured a la Bane and left to find a miracle cure or otherwise is convalescing away from his enemies, physically unable to defend himself. He could be in trapped in a death prison hole in the desert. He could be raising Damien away from his enemies in secret. He could be hunting down a dangerous criminal who keeps eluding him, but the criminal is so dangerous he can't afford to leave the hunt to check on Gotham. He could have been thrown in a Lazarus Pit and gone insane.

We haven't even found out yet what happened to Luke's dad and why Luke is caretaker of everything on his behalf (not Lucius or Alfred). That could also be a factor.

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Also curious what the story will be on the sidekicks. Is there a Batgirl in this earth? Robin has been name dropped, how many of them are there?

I have a feeling this will be the kind of show that buries itself with its own easter eggs and ends up painting itself in a corner.

Given they HAVEN'T mentioned the sidekicks yet, it gives me the confidence the threat of being buried in Easter Eggs WON'T happen (I mean, you can't have it both ways). They are staying very focused on Kate's story. Easter Eggs have been minimal--we know Joker was driving the school bus the day Kate's mom died. Hush briefly mentioned Riddler. A lot of the stuff that happened in Bruce's time is apparently done and is only going to come up when it's affecting Kate and her story. Could it happen later? Sure. But I'm not going to borrow trouble worrying yet about a thing that has had no sign of happening yet.

Even the one guy who knows Bruce, Tommy Elliott--while he has a backhistory with Bruce, he is a newer Batman villain without a lot of baggage and expectations on the part of the audience. That's a sign to me that they're trying to get away from a lot of fanservice as far as name dropping goes (and doing better than Gotham did on that part so far). While it would be nice to have a sense of how far Batman was in his career before he disappeared, I figure what we will learn, we'll learn when it's relevant.

Heck, outside of Luke and a couple of brief mentions of the above bad guys, the only longstanding Bruce Wayne-related character (as opposed to Kate Kane-related character) that's been mentioned is Vesper Fairchild, who clearly has a distant role to play as sort of a third party narrator that provides balance and levity to Kate's journal-narration. (As an aside, there's something delightful about hearing the serious and politically passionate Rachel Maddow play a schlocky gossip DJ). Only other namedrop I recall was a humorous reference to Wonder Woman, and I definitely don't think we're gonna see the Justice League on Batwoman (notwithstanding some reference/play in the Crisis Crossover).

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Don't forget last year's crossover which first introduced Batwoman. There were lots of Easter eggs about other Batman characters who exist in Earth-1.

Doors labeled:
"E. Nygma", "P." Isley, "B." Karlo, "O. Cobblepott"

Bane's mask

Scarecrow's fear gas

Mr. Freeze's gun and wife

So we can safely assume all of those characters exist and could be referenced or even appear in the future on Batwoman.


Well I'm assuming they'll be saved for later seasons I'd I'd prefer to see Scarecrow get a REALLY long arc. Or at least more than 2-3 episodes...

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I'm not taking stuff that happened before the show was even being filmed as Easter Eggs on this show. AFAIC those were (yes Easter Eggy) visuals to confirm to the audience they were in Gotham, as it was the first time the city was seen in the Arrowverse.

Speaking of Arrowverse--while again, I agree with the hope they don't go overboard with guest stars and large branches of the Batfamily tree, I remember a way long while ago Bludhaven was mentioned on Arrow. So if there's any Batfamily member who might show up eventually, Nightwing is a good possibility.

Onto last night... This episode didn't grab me as much as the last two, but things are coming along.

I wanted to like Magpie more. Maybe we'll see more of her, but she felt just very Catwoman-knock off here, with none of the charm or depth. Catwoman with explosives. The "you rich people are the bad guys!" doesn't fly for sympathy when you've nearly blown up a little kid for no really good reason (and since I brought her up, something Catwoman herself would have clawed up Magpie for doing).

However slightly cheesy, I loved the rescue of said little kid.

Although I know it's for reasons of plot, it's interesting Kate was overseeing the loan of Martha's necklace rather than Jacob (Martha's brother), or that he wasn't there at the unveiling.

Martha Kane-Wayne is an awkward name.

Bummed about already having a breakup with Regan. I liked her. I know they had to set up the whole "you can't have a life" scenario, but still. I liked that they acknowledged Kate is really bad at hiding her identity, and while plotwise it's problematic, I like that she's such an awful liar. It might be a dangerous trait, but it also indicates she's generally a decent person. (I also wonder though if Regan put it together that Kate is Batwoman, given she's so good at reading people. And damn she's so good at the cold read, she should be a fortune teller.)

Mary continues to be MVP with both saving that dude's life AND successfully interrogating him.

I'm not sure if the reveal of Catherine's treachery is more of a relief or a disappointment. They seemed to be building up to something more sinister, and yet the reveal about simply trying to get Kate to give up is completely in line with what they showed in prior episodes.

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DeathQuaker wrote:
I'm not sure if the reveal of Catherine's treachery is more of a relief or a disappointment. They seemed to be building up to something more sinister, and yet the reveal about simply trying to get Kate to give up is completely in line with what they showed in prior episodes.

I'm thinking that reveal is a partial truth at best. We also found out that Catherine is running a major weapons/tech company which Alice is interested in one of their projects. I'm guessing that there's more dirt to be dug up on Catherine, and part of Alice's endgame is to expose her.

On a separate note, for those playing Batman character reference bingo, there was confirmation that Killer Croc is around/exists.


JoelF847 wrote:

<snip>

On a separate note, for those playing Batman character reference bingo, there was confirmation that Killer Croc is around/exists.

LOL

Accurate is accurate... (^v^)=b

Still funny! :D

Carry on,

--C.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Bummed about already having a breakup with Regan. I liked her.

I'm not sure if the reveal of Catherine's treachery is more of a relief or a disappointment. They seemed to be building up to something more sinister...

Agreed on both counts. A lot of things seem to be moving at breakneck speed. Hush was a year-long storyline in Batman, and while that was in part due to a boatload of characters we wouldn't have expected to see in Batwoman, I had expected a multipart arc rather than have the whole thing "done in one." In particular because the comic Tommy Elliot was a brain surgeon who removed skull fragments from a badly injured Batman...I wondered if they were going to tie him into Beth's back story as someone Catherine paid to remove skull fragments either from a badly injured Beth or from her mother so she could plant them. (But seriously...a deer?)

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Damon Griffin wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

Bummed about already having a breakup with Regan. I liked her.

I'm not sure if the reveal of Catherine's treachery is more of a relief or a disappointment. They seemed to be building up to something more sinister...

Agreed on both counts. A lot of things seem to be moving at breakneck speed. Hush was a year-long storyline in Batman, and while that was in part due to a boatload of characters we wouldn't have expected to see in Batwoman, I had expected a multipart arc rather than have the whole thing "done in one."

I strongly doubt we have seen the last of Tommy Elliot. He hasn't even taken on the Hush name yet, and I expect his journey to Arkham and what happens after will be revisited later.

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In particular because the comic Tommy Elliot was a brain surgeon who removed skull fragments from a badly injured Batman...

I expect that was probably not intended to be a tie in (although who knows)?

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I wondered if they were going to tie him into Beth's back story as someone Catherine paid to remove skull fragments either from a badly injured Beth or from her mother so she could plant them. (But seriously...a deer?)

Being from a deer isn't unrealistic at all. I read a lot of Kathy Reichs novels--CSI/mystery stories written by a certified forensic anthropologist who in real life has helped do victim ID at 9/11 and plane crashes as well as for various murder cases. Her books have noted a few times that animal remains are very frequently sent to the police, mistaken for human. Even seemingly unlikely critters.

And especially if they were truly fragments--a chunk of occipital bone ridge here, a small section of a jaw there--I can see how to an untrained eye they could appear to be from a small human rather than an animal. (And a likely set of the right size bones to be found on a farm.)

I think part of why the pacing is so fast is because they're trying to get her origin/early story finished before Crisis invades everybody's storyline.


I'm not convinced yet we know ALL of Catherine's secrets. But I am convinced now that this has driving an effective wedge between her and the Col.

With regards to Magpie, yeah I felt she was too...one note to be much of a foil. Other than the bombs thing. Also Catwoman would TOTALLY kick her butt.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I wasn't suggesting we know all her secrets. But the fandom was suspecting she had a much more direct hand in creating Alice and/or had a far more sinister reason for altering the evidence. I think Occams Razor suggests her admission is the truth: she was trying to get Jake to stop so he and Kate could move on. I'm sure she wanted to snag marrying Jake while she was at it to get at the Kane money he'd inherit from Martha too.

Sure, she's researching something nasty at her tech company. I don't think she's a supervillain however. (Villain, maybe. supervillain, no.)


Supervillain? Nah. I'm pretty sure we got enough of those in Arkham running around now...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Well, Saint Bernard, you got your lenses this ep (though I don't know if she'll always use them or they're just for night vision).

This episode was creepy. Didn't grab me as much as other ones, but provided some necessary backstory. Everybody knows Alice is Beth now. Wonder between the revelation and Catherine's betrayal if Jacob is going to have a deep downslide.


I hope not. If nothing else, Kate might need his help if/when Alice's plan starts to come together.

My guess is she's going to pull a kind of Hush thing wherein Mouse gets a face and uses his voice mimicry to some how further push Gotham to the edge and also do irreparably harm to the Commander.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Among other things, even without a new face, he could mimic Vesper Fairchild and use her radio show to turn public opinion against the Crows and Batwoman.


Well maybe but I think Rachel Maddow wouldn't like that... :p ;)

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I liked the Daddy/Daughter drama.

I have decided Sophie Is The Worst and Needs to Go Away, and yes that's even after her more redeeming moments this week.

Mary continues to be The Best, and if Sophie screws over her illegal clinic op I curse her name forever. Curse it!!


I don't disagree that if Sophie DOES screw over Mary, she's on my shizzle list.

BUT what interests me is Alfred's kid, Julia, will be appearing in the next episode! :D *squee*

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Oh cool! I somehow missed the "next week" trailer (just went and watched it now).

Also it took me this long to realize all the episode titles are phrases from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

"I'll be judge, I'll be jury, said cunning old Fury; I'll try the whole cause and condemn you to death."

I couldn't remember the poem that was from (despite having read AIW many times) and looked it up... It is the Mouse's Tale! Duh! "Mine is a long and sad tale" is also from the same scene (and why the Mouse's Tale poem is written to look like a mouse's tail in the book).


Well I'm unsurprised by the usage, but I'm glad to know they all are. I wasn't sure but now we know.

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Any goodwill Sophie was just barely earning from me with her flashbacks and developments earlier in the episode were crushed when she (a married woman) threw herself at Kate and then, when rejected, threw herself back at her husband and bald-faced, outright lied to his face. It doesn't matter what her sad complicated family life is, she is a liar and a user; a terrible friend and a far worse, unfaithful romantic partner. I've known people like her. She is terrified of herself most of all, clings codependently to whomever lets her cling so she can keep hiding from herself, swings from one codependent partner to the fresher more interesting face of the week when the older partner starts pointing out her flaws, and then refuses to accept consequences or take responsibility when she inevitably hurts the people she tricks into loving her. Oh my god I know this b&!$# so well and I hate her.

You know what's messed up? I am FAR more interested in the redemption of Alice, and she frikkin' kills people. And enjoys it. And I still am far more invested in her development and growth. While obviously deluded, she is yet more self-aware and accepting of the consequences of her own actions than Sophie is. That's messed up (especially when you bear in mind Alice still blames a lot of what she does on Jake).

The best thing that could happen to Sophie is she sacrifices herself heroically. And then stays dead. She's a drag on the show, and I hope now that we've had the episode that focuses on her story she gets less screentime.

If you like Sophie, don't mean to piss on your parade, just need to rant. It's okay to like her if you do.

Julia was awesome, and had great chemistry with Kate. I hope she comes back. Kate now has TWO potential lovers/love interests that are way worth rooting for more than Sophie. Get with the program, show.

So Kate is doing an Early Oliver and building a club in the slums (but yet is somehow across the street from a fancy restaurant). I love the pride message thrown in, although I was a bit thrown off because in the city where I live, gay bars are going out of business because they're considered outdated; as far as I am aware (and have discussed with my fellow local queers) most younger LGBTQ+ folk feel safe enough to just go whereever. The few gay bars left tend to be occupied by people over 55, who frequented the places since they were young and needed that safe space and it's still just where they go because that's where their (older and often whiter) community is. While I am VERY aware my East Coast city is not typical to all of the U.S., and there are many places where LGBTQ+ folk need public places they know are safe, isn't Gotham supposed to be near NYC? Like, a fairly socially progressive area? It feels weird to be seeing a 20-30 year old woman act like a gay bar in an East Coast city is an up and coming revolutionary thing to do and that would actually do good business among young people rather than be seen as a thing the Olds do. The whole scenario felt oddly contrived and written by straight people trying to imagine what it is like to be gay. (Plus, as skeevy and terrible as Sophie is in general, Kate trying to make their get together feel "datey" was also creepy. Sophie's married and no matter how conflicted she may seem WRT her feelings, she has still told you "no" often enough, Kate. So ew.) But maybe I am sitting in an unlikely safezone (or am blissfully ignorant) and her plans are on point.

It's interesting that Kate namedrops Mary to threaten the terrible restaurant guy rather than, say, her dad who more or less commands the Crows. Not to mention, the Kanes are supposed to be fairly well known, yes?

Mary is Still the Best. I really hope Kate tells her she is Batwoman soon--girl is better at keeping secrets than Kate is, given she's been running that clinic all that time. Love that Kate is pulling her into the club project.


So my takes that are reflective of what DQ was going on about;

Yes Sophie is a drag on the show. She and Kate have 0 actual chemistry. I'm also WAY more shipping Julia and Kate than I would anyone else. Especially after that lack luster reasoning even if it has some semblance of logic.

Mostly I'm glad Julia is in this show and while the gay bar thing MIGHT seem a little contrived, speaking as someone that believes in safe spaces for minorities, gay bars even a place that's LIKE NYC (but isn't) that doesn't mean you can't have one.

I do agree that Kate should have named dropped her dad or hell the Kane name along with "Bruce Wayne is my cousin." Those two alone should have been enough for that prick.

But hopefully, as you suggested DQ, Mary and Kate get to be closer and certainly they'll find themselves in more sister-ly fashion.

What I think you MISSED (and I have watch it three times to be sure) is the name dropping of Safiyah from the rather good Batwoman arc, the Many Arms of Death. So that has me feeling pretty decent. (Also because the Cult of Crime Bible was/is still weird...) So we'll see if that's something that comes down the road later.

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I caught the name drop, though know little about the plot. I do know fans of the comic are excited. I'm intrigued without comics knowledge simply in that clearly there's a bigger player behind the scenes Alice is working against.

Yeah, of course she can build her bar and of course part of it is an FU to the guy across the street.

It would be even more beautiful if she'd bought HIS building and then turned HIS restaurant into a gay bar. ^_^


DQ,

Well while the Kanes have the money, I think Kate isn't ready to tap into the family fortune while the divorce is going on...

But yes, Sayifiah is kind of a big deal. Not quite Ra's Al'Ghul or even Talia and/or her sister. But she's still a big player.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Any goodwill Sophie was just barely earning from me with her flashbacks and developments earlier in the episode were crushed when she (a married woman) threw herself at Kate and then, when rejected, threw herself back at her husband and bald-faced, outright lied to his face.

Yeah, that was a big disappointment. I do not want her to heroically sacrifice herself and stay dead. Partly because I'd rather see her world gradually crash down around her, lose her husband and still can't get Kate back, cease to be Cmdr. Kane's favorite, etc. All without taking up too much screen time. And also because the actress is super attractive and I'd miss having her around...so sue me.

DeathQuaker wrote:
You know what's messed up? I am FAR more interested in the redemption of Alice, and she frikkin' kills people. And enjoys it. And I still am far more invested in her development and growth.

Alice is definitely the more [most?] interesting character. I don't expect she'll ever find redemption, but it is nice that she's modifying her behavior just enough to keep Kate alive. The recent realization that Kate never gave up on her clearly matters to her a great deal, but it'll never be enough to overcome over a decade of perceived abandonment, imprisonment and psychological torture.

DeathQuaker wrote:
Julia was awesome, and had great chemistry with Kate. I hope she comes back. Kate now has TWO potential lovers/love interests that are way worth rooting for more than Sophie. Get with the program, show.

I was kind of "meh" on Julia. I think that was mostly due to my being entirely unfamiliar with her from the comics; I'd literally never heard of her prior to this episode and from my perspective she might as well have been invented for the show. So despite having read otherwise in the past couple of weeks, my knee jerk reaction was still "So Alfred suddenly has a daughter...who's a badass agent of...something...and she has a past with Kate?" (See my previous rant on the too-large size of the extended Batman family.)

DeathQuaker wrote:
So Kate is doing an Early Oliver and building a club in the slums (but yet is somehow across the street from a fancy restaurant).

Well, neighborhood borders have to fall somewhere. This border happens to be on that street. Contrast is stark, but I can recall one time as a kid when it was raining steadily in my parents' back yard with not a drop in the front yard.

DeathQuaker wrote:
It's interesting that Kate namedrops Mary to threaten the terrible restaurant guy rather than, say, her dad who more or less commands the Crows. Not to mention, the Kanes are supposed to be fairly well known, yes?

Right, but social media buzz can make or break a restaurant, faster and more surely than one well known rich couple telling their friends not to go.

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