Batwoman


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Joel,

I wouldn't mind having the stunt double do the whole "Blam, get shot" and someone else fills the void...maybe Helena Wayne?

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That is a good point about the stunt double.

But it still doesn't resolve that literally everyone's life revolves around Kate.

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Welp, unfortunately it looks like the news is real, confirmed by the showrunner Caroline Dries at ATX Festival. Direct quote from an interview with the source:

Caroline Dries wrote:
To be honest with you, I did consider the "soap opera version" [of recasting] for a hot minute, because selfishly we already had a couple episodes written, and transition-wise it would be seamless. But upon further reflection — and I think [Arrowverse EP] Greg [Berlanti] helped me make this call — he’s like, ‘I think we should just reboot Batwoman as a different character.'”

Well this sucks. Mind you, I fully respect Rose's decision to leave. But honestly, I have a feeling they are going to be abandoned by their small but rabid fanbase.

Also, has this woman not noticed she is a producer on the CW? They're already making the "soap opera version" of everything. A different face on the same character is the LEAST of DCTV's character development problems.

And given some of the BEST character development on the show was Alice, not having her sister to anchor her may well make the show well and truly lost.

I hope I'm wrong.


Yeah, I don't think that would have been an issue, either. We canonically have three different versions of what Kal-El looks like (main continuity, Smallville, and Brandon Routh), and two versions of Bruce Wayne (Hush and Kevin Conroy, though Mr. Conroy might just be what Hush would look like older).

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Exactly. And while I recognize it is not exactly the same because the initial casting was a throwaway flashback scene, Sara Lance was a recast (and looked almost entirely different from the original). It's been done before.

Especially given we are in a world with, as noted, multiple universes AND ACTUAL FACE SWAPPING. I could understand if this was a hardcore drama taking place fully in our real world, but we have a show where one of the villain's specialties is literally actually giving people new faces.

I find it really, really hard to understand what the CW finds "plot feasible" and what seems outrageous and cheesy to them. Their mode of thinking doesn't fit any graspable mode of normal human thought, intellect, logic, or good storytelling by any stretch.

I mean, do they actually think we watch these shows for the writing and believable plot lines?

I'm here for Rachel Skarsten being amazing (which will be the only reason I tune in if at all now) and some surprisingly decent overarcing villain plot (which will now have to be entirely undone). And okay, and watching pretty girls kiss and then beat bad guys up, but I can watch other things for that.

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Longer quotes from Dries:

Quote:
I did consider the soap opera version for a hot minute, selfishly, because we had a couple episodes already written, and transition-wise, it would be seamless [since] we already started breaking Season 2. But upon further reflection, and [EP] Greg [Berlanti] helped me make this call — and he’s way smarter than me about this sort of stuff — he’s like ‘You know, I think we should just reboot the character in terms of reboot Batwoman as a different character.’ Just to also respect everything that Ruby [Rose] put into the Kate Kane character.”

I am really, really struggling not to read: "and he’s way smarter than me about this sort of stuff —" as anything but "I am a self-hating woman who needs a big strong man to make my decisions for me, and also I am totally unqualified for this job, constantly second-guessing myself, and I keep better men and women from a job like this just because I know how to kiss up to the executives."

Please correct me and tell me a better way to think about this.

Quote:
“I just think it helps the audience a little bit, too, that we’re not asking them to not address the elephant in the room. I’m inventing a whole new character. In her past, she was inspired by Batwoman. She is going to take on the mantle and is completely maybe not be the right person at the time to be doing it. That’s what makes it fun.”

And I struggle not to read the first sentence as, while she thinks Greg Berlanti is the smartest guy in the room, she believes her audience is even more stupid than she is. And also that she is excited because now she gets to write her OC Batwoman fanfiction than do anything connected to the comics--not to mention of course, earn more money because she'll get the royalties for creating the new character (writers who create a character usually get paid extra when that character is used).

Yeah, I think I'm out.


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I'm sorry DQ. I'll stick around because I want to see if Season 2 is salvageable or not...but I'm almost in the same boat as you when it comes "Can't we just recast Kate?" So we'll see.

But mostly this feel like more of Berlanti's crap which is partial why I never liked him as much as I did other writers back when they were doing DC Comics. I mean Gail Simone would be great. :)


Blast it, DQ, I was going to put something here about how, assuming the writers has a little bit of lead time, it might be significant that Alice was referring to wanting to kill "The Bat" rather than her sister by name, and maybe they were preparing for a multiverse-fueled plot explanation for the casting change.

After seeing your last couple of posts, now I'm just depressed. Please excuse me, I need to go blame Cosmo for putting you up to it.


I'm kind of done blaming Cosmo...since I doubt he could be this diabolic for an entire year...


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I agree, I think it would be unfair to blame even Cosmo for some of the existential issues that 2020 has thrown at us. The cluster#^!$ that has resulted out of the Batwoman issues? Still on the board... : )

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I am only fixated on this when I am as a temporary escape from the true, serious issues going on in the world. It feels good to yell about something this stupid---but completely recognizing there is a lot more serious stuff to be angry about (and I am addressing those issues in whatever small way I can).

Sorry Readerbreeder. They have time to change their minds. We can still hope for the best.

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Thomas Seitz wrote:
I'm kind of done blaming Cosmo...since I doubt he could be this diabolic for an entire year...

You have no idea...


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(I haven't been keeping up with this thread or a bunch of other threads, sorry. Finally getting around to replying here.)

I stopped watching season 1 about halfway through. I didn't think the show was bad, but it still has a lot of the usual CW/Berlanti-isms that make it not "must watch TV" for me. [rant] One of things that bugs me about the CW shows is that there is a wealth of solid, very good, and fantastic stories about these DC characters that are already written and storyboarded. But no, the show writers only pay the briefest service to those storylines and try to write something divergent... and it often comes off under-par and/or amateurish. If the comic stories and characterizations are what make it popular enough to get the nod for a show, then don't throw all that away. Especially when too often the people behind the scenes don't seem to be fans so much as "this show would be a perfect vehicle to tell my shoehorned-in fan fiction." [/rant]

I am sad to see Ruby Rose go, but I don't begrudge her for leaving, especially after her serious neck injury. I don't think the show should bother creating a totally new character when there are so many good existing characters who could step in, like in the comics when Nightwing/Dick Grayson took up Batman's cowl. I think Holly Robinson has too much potential as a foil/antagonist. Instead, I'd suggest either Renee Montoya/The Question or Kate Spencer/Manhunter as the next person the wear the cowl & cape. Neither have reappeared post-Crisis, so recasting either role (previously appearing in Supergirl and Arrow, respectively) and hewing closer to the comics versions of both characters shouldn't be a problem.

If I had my druthers, I'd have Montoya become the new Batwoman (instead of The Question) and offer a more noir detective-oriented perspective (while still keeping the action and superheroics). Spencer could be a sometimes antagonist, sometimes ally who has crossed the line into killing her foes and working as a government agent. Let Robinson be Earth-Prime's Catwoman.


What about Cassandra Cain or hell, Helena Wayne? :) I mean just some thoughts...though I would enjoy Montoya as Batwoman.

Diego Valdez wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
I'm kind of done blaming Cosmo...since I doubt he could be this diabolic for an entire year...
You gave no idea...

Well that may be true, but considering I consort with fiends a goodly amount...I find it unlikely.

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Did Montoya show up in Supergirl? Comics-Kate's OTHER love interest Maggie Sawyer did, but I don't remember Montoya.

Mind, I would LOVE to see Montoya on DCTV, IF they did her well. I am not sure if because there is a movie version of Montoya now if they will want to do her on DCTV given she is not a majorly well known character, but I would be fine with being wrong. But personally, in that case, I'd rather them cancel Batwoman and make a new show, the Question, set in the same Gotham but with a supporting cast set up to revolve around and bounce well off Renee, which I do not believe the Batwoman cast could do (as awesome as they are). And given the CW wants to have a show with a lesbian lead, she would still be that, and also be a Latina lead, which the CW hasn't had since they ended Jane the Virgin. (Which, BTW, is an excellent show that is not what you think it is and I highly recommend watching and not just because it has Bridget Regan as an evil lesbian in it).

I will also cast a vote for Kate Spencer showing up somewhere, although she might make more sense for Green Arrow and the Canaries. Even though I am also not watching that show because my god I have TRIED but I just can't with Mia.

And heck, bring back Maggie while we are at it.


Some how I don't think Maggie will be coming back...but with regards to Montoya, I'm not aware of her showing up in Arrowverse.


What would folks think of Monica Raymund (The Good Wife, Chicago Med/PD/Fire, Hightown) as Renee Montoya?


https://www.cbr.com/batwoman-kill-off-ruby-rose-kate-kane/

With all the talks about how they respect Rose and the Character Kate Kane this makes me wonder what the showrunner would have done if she did not "respect" her.

Revealing in the next season that Kate was evil all along?

The best option would have been just recast and move on.

But this makes me wonder what kind of plan the higherups have or if they even have one.

On one hand I would love to know the talks they had leading to this.

On the other hand do I really want to know too much about the things happening behind closed doors?


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low,

Some times there's such as thing as knowing too much. But we'll see.

Damon,

I mean it's not the WORST casting choice.

Dark Archive

A just wish they would recast the part without any unnecessary explanation. We all know the reason.

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So does every fan and fansite I've seen on the Internet. While many were sad to see Ruby Rose go, the initial report that she would just be recast was met with little but supportiveness and casting ideas. Few if anyone had any problem with this--especially as since we've all mentioned here, we are in a universe with both multiversal doppelgangers and actual faceswapping.

This on the other hand, I've seen no one say any good things--and if they proceed with this plan, I truly, truly feel sorry for whoever they cast. Ruby Rose got enough hate from jerks and bigots. The new woman will get both the hate from the jerks and bigots AND fans who don't know how to separate actor from character. I mean, while I wish it were otherwise, I have far too often see fans be nasty to an actor because either they didn't like a character or indeed were mad at them for "replacing" an actor who left/whose character was written off (even if the actor left on good terms). The poor woman is going to just get every bit of insane Internet vitriol thrown her way and she won't deserve it. Meanwhile the idiot bootlicker so-called showrunner will shake her head and decry the meanness of Internet bullies while refusing to take any responsibility for throwing an actor into the fire just because she wanted royalty rights for writing an original character. I mean, it is isn't the idiot bootlicker showrunner's fault people are mean on the Internet, it's just the inevitable nastiness the actress will have to deal with is one of many, many, many downsides her ridiculous decision/inability to stand up to Greg Berlanti will lead to.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Meanwhile the idiot bootlicker so-called showrunner will shake her head and decry the meanness of Internet bullies while refusing to take any responsibility for throwing an actor into the fire just because she wanted royalty rights for writing an original character. I mean, it is isn't the idiot bootlicker showrunner's fault people are mean on the Internet, it's just the inevitable nastiness the actress will have to deal with is one of many, many, many downsides her ridiculous decision/inability to stand up to Greg Berlanti will lead to.

Is it the bootlicker's fault that people are mean on the internet? No. Is it the bootlicker's fault that people are going to be mean to this person on the internet, due to the bootlicker's easily-avoided, selfish decision? Absolutely.

Sorry if I seem to be repeating what you just said, DQ, but it bears repeating if, as you (we) fear, it plays out this way. People being #&%@heads on the internet is inevitable; deciding who gets those #&%@heads weaponized against them is not, at least not always.

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Oh my god, Caroline Dries, the greedy idiot bootlicker , has actually put the words, "creator of Batwoman" in her Twitter profile. It is SO obvious all she wants is this credit for creating this new woman in the Batwoman mantle and doesn't care about anything else.

First of all, Batwoman was created in 1956 by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff (I am talking about the original Katherine Kane, the first superhero I am aware of named Batwoman). Their estates should sue her for libel and infringement. As should for good measure, Geoff Johns and Greg Rucka. Second of all, she is not the creator of Batwoman. Maybe she's the creator of "Ryan Wilder" (not necessarily character's final name). But that is outright a lie. That would be like Brian Michael Bendis putting "Creator of Spider-Man" on his profile. (He, sensibly, has "co-creator of Miles Morales" which he definitely can lay claim to).

I have other things to say but they break the board's rules and I shouldn't be getting myself this worked up. It's just a TV show.

BTW I looked at her profile because she made a statement promising their killing off Kate/putting her on a bus isn't an invocation of the Bury Your Gays trope*. (Really, honest, guys, because she says so!) Which is is pretty cold comfort.

* Warning: link is to the TV Tropes website. Click at your own risk of your time being spent productively.


Thank you for those links DQ. I completely agree with the fact she's not the creator of Batwoman. She's the creator of the SHOW that stars Batwoman, but not the character herself.

As for this whole thing, I'm shelving it all until 2021...mostly because by then we might get better clarity about this whole show. Maybe.

But regardless, I agree with DQ.

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Yeah, I think it's probably wise to let go. Just feels good to rant sometime. :)


No kidding. Believe me, I've had occasion to use less than 'professional' language in a chat recently...and that was just in a computer game! :p ;)


This is getting more stupid by the minute.

Seeing what she did during all this, I would not even make a crazy guess about what Caroline Dries does next.

But the Twitter about her not using the "Bury your gays" trope is classic backpedaling. Replacing a lesbian character with another did not go so well with the fans? Big surprise.

Wonder, how long the higher-ups at Warner look at this mess and stay quiet. Her saying she created Batwoman should not really go well with them.

Dark Archive

DC is just a part of Warner (much like WotC is to Hasbro) that they may not notice, or care, what her self anointed title may be. DC on the other hand should speak up about it.

Personally I think I'm done with this hot mess.

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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Thank you for those links DQ. I completely agree with the fact she's not the creator of Batwoman. She's the creator of the SHOW that stars Batwoman, but not the character herself.

I wouldn't even go that far. She mentioned being offered the job of producer, so she isn't the one who pitched the series.

Sometimes directors might be referred to as "creators," but she is not a director. And more likely they are usually honored with "auteur."

And sometimes actors are referred to as "creating" a role, usually if they are the either the first actor, or the first well-known, actor in a role that is frequently performed over and over again, such as in a popular play or remake of a film. A lot of time they are remarked upon for "creating" a role because people want to honor the stamp they put on their character--their interpretation and performance feeds into future ones and becomes a standard for comparison. For example, Carol Channing "created" the role of Lorelei Lee in "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes," even if Marilyn Monroe is also well known for playing the character in the movie version.

You might even say George Reeves created the role of Superman as an actor; while no one has ever remade specifically his series, of course Superman is a character who has appeared again and again on the small and large screen. It's important still to acknowledge him--is performance and his series kept Superman in the hearts and minds of viewers in a way comic books alone likely would not have---so without this groundwork, we may not have gotten to enjoy Christopher Reeve, Brandon Routh, Tom Welling, Henry Cavill, Tyler Hoechlin, etc. Lynda Carter is performance-wise the creator of Wonder Woman while Gal Gadot carries on the role marvelously.

One day, Ruby Rose could be honored acting-wise as the "creator" of the performance of live action Kate Kane, while the very important specific tale of Kate Kane (Jewish lesbian who was kicked out of the military due to DADT who became a vigilante, who contends with the traumatic loss of a sister and mother, whose sister survived to become something terrifying, etc.), is continued to be told by other writers, actors, producers, etc.

But that's less likely if Dries gets her way.

Quote:


DC is just a part of Warner (much like WotC is to Hasbro) that they may not notice, or care, what her self anointed title may be. DC on the other hand should speak up about it.

If, say, James Jacobs started walking around claiming to be "creator of Dungeons and Dragons" because he had made significant contributions to a particular edition, etc., I am pretty damn sure Hasbro would sit up and take notice and C&D him. And of course fans of the game and/or of Gygax and Arneson would be quick to condemn him. (THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL HASBRO AND FANS PLEASE DO NOT GO AFTER JAMES JACOBS).

Maybe Warner IS too big to care, but SHOULD DC or Warner pay attention she would probably get a good dressing down at least.

Quote:


Personally I think I'm done with this hot mess.

*sigh* Yeah.


DeathQuaker wrote:
You might even say George Reeves created the role of Superman as an actor; while no one has ever remade specifically his series, of course Superman is a character who has appeared again and again on the small and large screen.

My completely uncalled-for nitpick: Kirk Alyn was the first live action Superman; serials in 1948 and 1950.


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Nitpick aside, most people recognize George Reeves as the Superman most saw on the TV, even if Kirk Alyn was first. By recognize I mean name wise. Like "Name me actors that have portrayed Superman."

DQ,

Again, with your insights about creator versus "People that say stuff." I defer to you. I just figured since she's sort of a force on the show (not one I'd consider a good force) giving her the creator for the Batwoman TV show wouldn't have been out of line. I can see I was in error. Thank you. But you're correct, Ruby Rose will be in the same "pantheon" as Tyler Hoelicin, Brandon Routh, Michael Keaton, Christian Bale and the rest.

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Damon Griffin wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
You might even say George Reeves created the role of Superman as an actor; while no one has ever remade specifically his series, of course Superman is a character who has appeared again and again on the small and large screen.
My completely uncalled-for nitpick: Kirk Alyn was the first live action Superman; serials in 1948 and 1950.
DeathQuaker wrote:
usually if they are the either the first actor, or the first well-known, actor

This is also why I did not mention Cathy Lee Crosby or Ellie Wood Walker as Wonder Woman. ;)


DeathQuaker wrote:
This is also why I did not mention Cathy Lee Crosby or Ellie Wood Walker as Wonder Woman. ;)

Cathy Lee Crosby's outfit for WW is terrifying...


DeathQuaker wrote:
This is also why I did not mention Cathy Lee Crosby or Ellie Wood Walker as Wonder Woman. ;)

The Crosby movie was awful; the Walker pilot was an abomination that thankfully never saw the light of day! Never mention it again!


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My whole take on the situation? A mix of, "Aw, I was enjoying that show a lot!" and, "Thank goodness, one less TV show to watch next year!" :/


I'm not sure I'm at the point Feros is..(IE not watching it) but we'll see what happens when 2021 rolls around and the CW start airing new Arrowverse shows.


Batwoman has found it's star

While I'm still saddened we'll not get more Kate Kane, this is a slightly more welcome addition to the Bat family. In its own way.


Wish her best of luck. She will need it :(

Regarding the "mystery" of Season 2:
One possibilty is them trying to salvage the mess they made with Ryan finding Kate in during season 2 and they introduce the new actress for the role.

And in Season 3 they take a page from the "Secret of the Batwomen" movie and both of them will use the name. Or they go the Oracle route with one of them.

But I think I am putting too much stock in the higher-ups and they act more like paniced chicken esp. after how they handled it until now.


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I'm kind of in the same boat as you low. Though again I think there's some reason to suspect Ruby didn't quite leave on her own terms.

But we'll see.

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lowfyr01 wrote:

Wish her best of luck. She will need it :(

Regarding the "mystery" of Season 2:
One possibilty is them trying to salvage the mess they made with Ryan finding Kate in during season 2 and they introduce the new actress for the role.

And in Season 3 they take a page from the "Secret of the Batwomen" movie and both of them will use the name. Or they go the Oracle route with one of them.

But I think I am putting too much stock in the higher-ups and they act more like paniced chicken esp. after how they handled it until now.

My problem with this is if they're going to go ahead and re-cast Kate, why not just do it now and not de-rail existing plots? They could always introduce a second batwoman when they wanted to.


Joel,

Right now what we don't know is wider than what we do know. Maybe down the road, we'll get a clearer picture. If the show makes it to Season 3.

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I've heard tremendous things about this actress and I want her to have every success. I just wish she hadn't been cast as Replaceable Lesbian #263 (and I'm also a bit disturbed that the new black lady gets cast as the "chaotic and wild former criminal/drug runner" so we are dealing with dodgy racist stereotypes AND Bury Your Gays altogether). And in a show that has screwed 100% of its existing plot threads by ditching the show's first main character. On a network that barely markets or pushes its primarily African-American superhero show (anyone remember Black Lightning? Or, say, the character on that show, Thunder, the first actual first lesbian superhero they put on their channel but then said it was Kate?). The only audience investment is going to come from the fact that this is a good casting for a lead role, because nearly all existing emotional investment in the show's characters is gone, and who at this point has any faith in the writers to do right by this actress or the rest of the show?

I really, really hope a miracle happens and somehow this woman can rescue the show---or if not, get enough visibility to get better roles elsewhere due to it.

I'm sorry I keep posting grumpy things on this site.

Here, let's remember brighter days and sing along with the first (to my knowledge) lesbian performer to appear on a live action series taking place in Gotham City. (No of course she wasn't publicly out back then. Still. Stop arguing, just sing with me dammit!)


I'm not sure you want me to sing with you...but I am glad to see you're a little less grumpy. (Even though you have 10,000% right to be about this whole mess.)


Sorry, I am unable to see or hear Lesley Gore while Julie Newmar's Catwoman is in the room.

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I SAID SING WITH ME DAMON.

Also, why not enjoy both?


Just catching up on this thread and I just want to say if they are going forward with the idea of changing the show such that a new character is taking on the role of Batwoman instead of them just doing an actor swap for Ruby Rose they're being dumb - especially if they can't have Rose do a transition episode to explain why this other character is suddenly in a position to put on the suit and has all of the skills and training to do what is needed. Plus isn't the Kane character special in terms of the Crisis plot line?


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Legendarius wrote:
Just catching up on this thread and I just want to say if they are going forward with the idea of changing the show such that a new character is taking on the role of Batwoman instead of them just doing an actor swap for Ruby Rose they're being dumb - especially if they can't have Rose do a transition episode to explain why this other character is suddenly in a position to put on the suit and has all of the skills and training to do what is needed. Plus isn't the Kane character special in terms of the Crisis plot line?

You're singing our song, Legendarius. Writing out a character that's central to every character, plot-line, and sub-plot in the show AND is central to the whole Arrowverse rather than just recasting is beyond stupid.


I wasn't singing. I was damn just screaming this is a bad idea...but I still wait and see what Season 2 gives us. If anything.

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Legendarius wrote:
Plus isn't the Kane character special in terms of the Crisis plot line?

Yup, she was the Paragon of Courage, and they made a big deal pointing out it was specifically her, Kate Kane, not "Batwoman." There is also a specific seat for her at the Hall of Justice. (And I WEEP that we will never see more of her friendship with Kara, or see her interact with the Legends.)

I have no plans as of now to watch Season 2--I have no desire to reward the showrunners' extraordinarily bad decision and disrespect for the existing series by adding to their ratings. The first reason I watched was because I was invested in specifically Kate and Alice's story and seeing either Alice completely fall (which is only interesting as it relates to her relationship with Kate) or reconcile with Kate (a la in the comics) and as that story is finished and will never be completed in a way I could imagine as satisfactory, I have no reason to continue watching. The second reason I watched was I ADORE Mary and watched it for her too, but I also have no desire to also see all of her character development flushed down the toilet and play second fiddle to a newbie nobody has any existing relationships with. If they'd revamped the show as Batwing and Flamebird and made her and Luke the leads, I'd be there is a f@~@ing heartbeat. As it is, I won't say I'll NEVER watch it, but it's not a priority for me. If I hear it's better than I expect I might catch up later.

I feel really bad for the new actress they hire for all the undeserved secondary flack she is going to get for the showrunners' bad decisions. I wish her the best of luck in this job and furthermore hope down the road she gets a better job and one that she deserves far more, rather than Replaceable Lesbian/Questionable Black Stereotype #512.

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