Batwoman


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Mary is great.

Duela's origins has been widely varied, but the most recent version comes from the Nu 52, which is SORT of like this one. I, myself, am glad to see them using an rather relative unknown in such a fashion.

As for Scarecrow, I don't necessarily think that Cartwright will be the replacement for ole Jonny Crane, but at the same time, who the heck knows?

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I'm pretty sure some of the fear toxin was in Arkham in the Elseworlds crossover, and therefore could easily have gone missing. The fact that Cartwright has it could be as simple as he getting his hands on it. Or he could have been a scientific peer of Crane and gotten the formula that way. I don't think he'll be the next Scarecrow though.


Joel,

Neither do I but some people seem to think just because you HAVE something, you get to brand yourself that. But we'll see come next episode.

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Not only was there a new episode last night after a month, but what a

Spoiler:
Batman killed Joker 5 years ago!

Also, looks like Julia is sticking around for a while.


Well I'm glad that Julia is. As for that thing...I'll believe when I see the rotting corpse myself.

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Wow, great season finale, even though it wasn't planned to be the finale, it ended on a great cliffhanger.

Spoiler:
And looks like they've cast arrowverse's Bruce Wayne! Even if he won't be playing Bruce now, it certainly sets up having him come back in season 4, 5, or whatever.


I was thinking the same thing Joel. It also would help set up dueling World's Finest with Supergirl and Batwoman and Superman and Batman maybe having to find a way to destroy all Kryptonite because it's become unstable thanks to Crisis.

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Ruby Rose Exits Batwoman, Role to Be Recast


We're coming up on the 50th anniversary of "Kryptonite Nevermore" (Superman #233) in January, which is the only thing that makes me think we might see an end to the stuff in the CW-verse. Traditionally speaking the only things that could hurt Superman (and by extension, Supergirl) are kryptonite, red solar radiation and magic. Lex can only turn the sun red so many times, and we've yet to see unambiguous magic in Supergirl.

Regarding Batman, my feeling is we'll never see him, or that if we do, it'll be in a blink-and-you'll-miss-it flashback -- perhaps in a situation where [real] Bruce Wayne is explaining to Kate why he left that role behind for good.

All I know is that 'second banana Superman' better not get an echo in Batwoman. If Batman does briefly return, only to gush "Gosh, Kate, you're so much stronger than I ever was", I will scream.

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Damon Griffin wrote:

We're coming up on the 50th anniversary of "Kryptonite Nevermore" (Superman #233) in January, which is the only thing that makes me think we might see an end to the stuff in the CW-verse. Traditionally speaking the only things that could hurt Superman (and by extension, Supergirl) are kryptonite, red solar radiation and magic. Lex can only turn the sun red so many times, and we've yet to see unambiguous magic in Supergirl.

Regarding Batman, my feeling is we'll never see him, or that if we do, it'll be in a blink-and-you'll-miss-it flashback -- perhaps in a situation where [real] Bruce Wayne is explaining to Kate why he left that role behind for good.

All I know is that 'second banana Superman' better not get an echo in Batwoman. If Batman does briefly return, only to gush "Gosh, Kate, you're so much stronger than I ever was", I will scream.

While we haven't seen magic in Supergirl itself, now that it's part of Earth Prime, magic certainly exists, since it's been heavily featured in Legends of Tomorrow with Constantine, et al.


Marik Whiterose wrote:
Ruby Rose Exits Batwoman, Role to Be Recast

*screams into the void*

Also Joel is correct. John Constantine is the magic guy. So it might show up now that Legends fully into Earth Prime.

Secondly...I doubt Batwoman and Batman get into an arm wrestling contest to prove who is better crime fighter.

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Marik Whiterose wrote:
Ruby Rose Exits Batwoman, Role to Be Recast

Whhaaaaaaa?

That was totally out of the blue. It is not given as a reason--and other articles suggest it's probably not the case--but I have to wonder if her injury doing stunts gave her second thoughts. Seems like what happened to her was pretty traumatic.

I'll be honest I thought she was pretty wooden in the pilot, but she improved dramatically over the season. And she really made the part her own, it is going to be hard to have someone take the lead and make it their own.

But whatever flaws the CW has, they generally do a good job in casting. I just hope they do a (sisterly/nemesisly) chemistry test with Rachel Skarsten because how the actress bounces off her will be key.

Thought Skarsten knocked it out of the park in the last episode. I could buy her grief even while being fully aware of her twisted heartlessness.

Yeah, for an episode not meant to be a finale, it's hard to imagine one better. I hope we'll get more... this show mostly got better from start to finish, with one notable dip in the middle that quickly righted itself. But it seems like they are proceeding. Will be hard to wait til January for more.


I think the IMDB 3.5 rating is explanation enough.

None of the MCU or DCU TV adaptations are particularly popular (except Agents of SHIELD) but a 3.5 rating makes "yes we're going to continue with season 2" the most astonishing thing about this announcement.


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I dunno about THAT astonishing...

But I agree with DQ this is totally out of the blue. But I imagine some of it is the injury. I also read somewhere that the travel to and from Australia to Vancouver was a bit much. But regardless, I agree she went from being not so great/wooden to pretty much Kate as the season progressed.

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The show got reviewbombed early on by sweaty basement-dwellers with nothing else to do who didn't like the girlpower messaging of the early promos, let alone that it was a Gotham-based show with a mostly female cast and a lesbian lead. While the pilot was also rough, it was getting bad reviews well before the show even came out, which speaks to the fact that any review scoring had little to do with how good or bad the show actually was. (I am not suggesting there is nothing to criticize in the show and many of my prior posts speak to that; only saying that fan review scores on major review-poll-sites have been purposely skewed by online trolls and are an unreliable source of said critique.)

The CW is aware of this and I seriously doubt puts much stock into extraordinarily poorly curated fan review scoring. (Also, is there anyone who lacks so much capacity for reason that they actually look to IMDB for reliable review ratings? The only time I usually ever hear people talk about IMDB reviews is as a punchline.) More than any other network, the CW understands online viewership, including how things can be manipulated or skewed--and indeed, even accept a fair deal of criticism, fair or unfair, as "all press is good press." What they care about at the end of the day are clicks, views, and buzz in any form, and especially the revenue they can earn from their free (but very ad driven) web streaming and app. The CW has a much smaller budget than most networks, so they would not have renewed the show if they weren't getting something (i.e., lots of money) out of it.

More specifically, Ruby Rose is no stranger to online bully doofuses and definitely not someone to be scared away from them. I expect in an alternate world if the CW were to shut down filming because of the review brigades, she'd be fighting tooth and nail against it. But that isn't happening, and I sincerely doubt she is leaving because some sweaty, drooling 13 year old programmed a few thousand bots to leave bad reviews on IMDB. Likely injury and travel are key issues. Herniated discs are nothing to sneeze at, and I too have read the speculation/gossip on TVLine that she didn't like Vancouver. Could be possible (But this is entirely speculation on my part) she also wanted more pay (she is a lead after all) and didn't get it. That is often behind many actor departures. Or just she didn't like the production schedule--or it conflicted with something else she wanted to do. Whatever happens, I hope she continues a successful career and that the CW casts another suitable woman for the role.

Scarab Sages

Ruby Rose's Batwoman Exit: The Story Behind Her Shocking Departure

An "insider", so I'd take it with a grain of salt. It kind of makes sense though.


Thanks Aberzombie. Actors/entertainers aren't known for their stability of interpersonal relationships.

As for IMDB, well they use an algorithm to prevent astroturfing/demonizing with bot or sock-puppet accounts.

That^ metric and the viewership numbers crashing are pretty good indicators that the show isn't suffering from anything external.

Tron Legacy has a pretty bad IMDB score, and it's even worse on MetaCritic. I really like that movie but I also recognize that it's IMDB score is just about right.

For Batwoman lets hope the recasting is worth it and maybe pump up the dialog with some new writer/s.


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I think even with a grain (or a pound of salt) it seems like there was something keeping Rose from wanting to stay on. The combination of factors is clearly at the root of it. I will miss her, but I will respect the hell out of her for a) sticking it out through one season (truncated though it was) and b) giving us a Batwoman.

Recasting is never fun, but I have hope/faith the CW will work around this and get us to have at least 4-5 seasons of Batwoman.

Btw, I side with DQ on the whole review bombs.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Btw, I side with DQ on the whole review bombs.

I'm sure you do. That's why I avoid 4Chan, Reddit reviews, etc.

Myself, I always try to side with the data. And since the viewership data parallels nicely with the IMDB score, I'll make the safe bet and believe agreeing with those two independent data sources is the correct position to hold.


Uhm not a 4chan person or a Reddit guy. I just prefer to trust my gut. It's been a reliable indicator to me!


Yeeaahhh... Here's a repeat of something I said up thread but in a whole new way.

Objective Me: Tron Legacy is a bit of a dog.

Subjective Me: I love Tron Legacy.

Both of those statements are true.
The differing context allows that^ situation to be a coherent state.

For most people Objective Me and Subjective Me feel like they coincide but it's not wrong for them to differ regardless of one's feelings.


So basically you're saying that yourself exists in a Schrodinger's Cat kind of life...


Thomas Seitz wrote:
So basically you're saying that yourself exists in a Schrodinger's Cat kind of life...

I'm saying my subjective opinion doesn't touch the fact that the movie I love is less than awesome.

Similarly the IMDB rating for the series under discussion is rather telling. Even when broken down demographically, as they do here, it never rises above a 6.4 (which is in the "D-" range) among the most favorable sub-group.

I'm free to have my own opinion. That small subjective fact will not change the very, very large objective fact that most people thought season 1 is a load of ##############.

In addition, the viewership ratings tacitly agree with IMDB.

Those two scores are highly independent from each other. They are in fact two functionally independent measures of the same phenomenon. The phenomenon of ###### viz-a-viz Batwoman.

I have high hopes season 2 will be better. If for no other reason than it can't hardly get worse.
Raises glass and toasts to a better season 2

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Quark Blast wrote:


Similarly the IMDB rating for the series under discussion is rather telling. Even when broken down demographically, as they do here, it never rises above a 6.4 (which is in the "D-" range) among the most favorable sub-group.

You're not really interpreting IMDB data right if you're saying a 6.4 is only a D-. Even the best titles rarely get above a 9 on IMDB, such as Empire Strikes Back at a 8.7, Avengers: Endgame at a 8.4. Shows like the Flash are around 7.5. So while Batwoman isn't at those levels and is objectively from that metric not as well liked, saying it's best demographic puts it at a 6.4 which is like a D- isn't really the right curve.


JoelF847 wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:

Similarly the IMDB rating for the series under discussion is rather telling. Even when broken down demographically, as they do here, it never rises above a 6.4 (which is in the "D-" range) among the most favorable sub-group.

You're not really interpreting IMDB data right if you're saying a 6.4 is only a D-. Even the best titles rarely get above a 9 on IMDB, such as Empire Strikes Back at a 8.7, Avengers: Endgame at a 8.4. Shows like the Flash are around 7.5. So while Batwoman isn't at those levels and is objectively from that metric not as well liked, saying it's best demographic puts it at a 6.4 which is like a D- isn't really the right curve.

I hear ya but there are a few problems with your point.

1) The unpublished algorithm that IMDB uses, which also insulates the rating from being either unduly promoted or 'canceled', certainly does not correspond to the 90%-80%-70%-60% standard grading curve despite both systems using a theoretical range of 0 to 100 (or 0.0 to 10.0) units.

2) TV ratings seem (qualitatively) to be about a full point above the movie ratings.

3) Similar shows, say Gotham or The Flash, have reasonable metrics that show all the FBs and FGs can't artificially inflate a score. Similarly deflation is guarded against. FWIW I agree with the IMDB score for both of these superhero shows as well. The algorithm is pretty bulletproof.

Remember, the best sub-group gives only a 6.4 rating to Batwoman. Hell Top Chef crushed it comparatively. You can give it a "D+" if you like but it doesn't change facts.

Silver Crusade

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The fact that's it's better than average? Going off those number provided.

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Stop it, stop it. The horse is dead

Each person view of the show, being subjective, is going to be different. Yes, sure the show was rating bombed before it even aired because some people took offense to the LGTBQ nature of the hero. Others flat out didn't like it.
Personally I'd give it a C- rating. Perhaps Ms. Rose's injury and dissatisfaction with the show showed through, but it did seem to be getting better as it progressed. With a chance to recast the lead the CW can hopefully find someone who can embrace the role and have some fun with it (we just got rid of brooding loner Oliver Queen, we don't need another one to replace him so soon).


Oliver was only broody because Dad killed himself.

We'll see how this shakes out in 2021.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Oliver was only broody because Dad killed himself.

Also, five years of Lian Yu, Deathstroke, League of Assassins, and Bratva do not incline one toward a cheery disposition.


Rysky wrote:
The fact that's it's better than average? Going off those number provided.

Considering more than 3/4 of TV shows get cancelled sometime before season 2, being "above average" in this context is not really a brag.

I'm just glad they got the green light to recast the lead and give this show a second chance.


Damon Griffin wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
Oliver was only broody because Dad killed himself.
Also, five years of Lian Yu, Deathstroke, League of Assassins, and Bratva do not incline one toward a cheery disposition.

Don't forget Amanda Waller...


Reader is correct. One shouldn't forget the Wall.

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I would never forget the Wall, but I will choose to forget the horrifically cast and portrayed Not Amanda Waller who was on Arrow. I get broody just thinking about that.

Believability of ratings aside, what I was attempting to get at upthread is that Ruby Rose was highly unlikely to have quit because of what IMDB users said about her. Indeed, more articles have come out repeating that she disliked the long hours of filming. Combined with chronic pain that was probably too difficult for her to maintain.

Fortunately while she had some broodiness going along (as I believe is required in Gotham City), their portrayal of Kate did have her working with and relying on a team much more quickly and I would hope that would continue regardless of who is cast.

What I'm curious about is if they will just fly along with a recast just pretending she doesn't look a little different, or if they will actually plot in an appearance change. I actually hope for the former, but wonder what they'll do.


DeathQuaker wrote:
What I'm curious about is if they will just fly along with a recast just pretending she doesn't look a little different, or if they will actually plot in an appearance change. I actually hope for the former, but wonder what they'll do.

Beth could give Kate a new face, just out of spite. But the writers might tie themselves in knots working out a rationale for her to drop her plan to kill Kate.

Dark Archive

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Damon Griffin wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
What I'm curious about is if they will just fly along with a recast just pretending she doesn't look a little different, or if they will actually plot in an appearance change. I actually hope for the former, but wonder what they'll do.
Beth could give Kate a new face, just out of spite. But the writers might tie themselves in knots working out a rationale for her to drop her plan to kill Kate.

Yeah, that could be a possibility, with Alice rationalizing that she's 'killed Kate' by taking away her face (and yet, somehow also 'saved her sister' and 'not abandoned/betrayed her, the way she abandoned/betrayed me?'). It doesn't have to completely make sense, because, she's cray-cray, and I'm sure the actress who plays Alice/Beth could *totally* sell it!

Alternately, they could just recast and it go completely without in-story explanation, other than sister Mary saying in the first episode she appears, "Oh, hey Kate. Love the new look!"

Sort of hang a lampshade on it and walk on by.


DeathQuaker wrote:
I would never forget the Wall, but I will choose to forget the horrifically cast and portrayed Not Amanda Waller who was on Arrow. I get broody just thinking about that.

I agree with you about the Arrowverse version of Not Waller (I like that!). To say that they "went in a different direction" would be an understatement.

DeathQuaker wrote:
What I'm curious about is if they will just fly along with a recast just pretending she doesn't look a little different, or if they will actually plot in an appearance change. I actually hope for the former, but wonder what they'll do.

My daughters and I predict multiverse shenanigans...


Readerbreeder wrote:
My daughters and I predict multiverse shenanigans...

Vegas will give you 1:1 odds on that bet!

:D

DeathQuaker wrote:
Believability of ratings aside, what I was attempting to get at upthread is that Ruby Rose was highly unlikely to have quit because of what IMDB users said about her.

IMDB users, or any other gaggle of #### punks, or all of 'em put together!

:D


Multiverse or maybe the kryptonite bullet causes Kate to go find a way to get ress and there's that side effect...

Just saying.

Dark Archive

Readerbreeder wrote:
My daughters and I predict multiverse shenanigans...

Also an option. They've got different actors being Clark/Superman on different earths of the multiverse, so there's plenty of precedent for it.

I'd prefer if they stuck with in-show-stuff, like Alice's face-swapping stuff, but they've already used a multiversal dupe of Alice in-show, so they are clearly willing to embrace all the wildness of the greater WBDCU.

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Ooh, since Multiverse Beth came through, maybe her Kate also came through? The only problem with this is that she has not been feeling any serious pain from the paradox. But proximity seemed to make it worse, so maybe Alt Kate showed up still training in Native Mystic Training Land and/or was protected by wherever she was.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Ooh, since Multiverse Beth came through, maybe her Kate also came through? The only problem with this is that she has not been feeling any serious pain from the paradox. But proximity seemed to make it worse, so maybe Alt Kate showed up still training in Native Mystic Training Land and/or was protected by wherever she was.

If they do decide to go the multiverse route, something like this could work. It would not be difficult at all to retcon something like Native Mystic Training Land, at least.

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Different Kate from elsewhere in the multiverse could come through later - doesn't have to be an immediate aftereffect of Crisis which was somehow on pause. Just because Earth Prime doesn't yet know about the other Earths in the new multiverse, we as viewers know they exist, so sooner or later they'll have jumping between them again.

Dark Archive

Batwoman Will Not Recast Kate Kane in Wake of Ruby Rose's Exit; New Character Eyed to Lead Series

Silver Crusade

Marik Whiterose wrote:
Batwoman Will Not Recast Kate Kane in Wake of Ruby Rose's Exit; New Character Eyed to Lead Series

*hesitation intensifies*

Quote:
“She’s likable, messy, a little goofy and untamed,” the casting notice reportedly went on to read. “She’s also nothing like Kate Kane, the woman who wore the batsuit before her. With no one in her life to keep her on track, Ryan spent years as a drug-runner, dodging the GCPD and masking her pain with bad habits. A girl who would steal milk for an alley cat could also kill you with her bare hands, Ryan is the most dangerous type of fighter: highly skilled and wildly undisciplined. An out lesbian. Athletic. Raw. Passionate. Fallible. And very much not your stereotypical All-American hero.”

*anticipation intensifies*

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looks like this is based on a reddit post of a "leaked" casting posting. That may or may not be accurate, or could even be CW anonymously testing the idea out to gauge reaction.

If they did that though, there'd be a lot to work out, like the new character's connection to the Wayne/Kane family, which is a pretty core part of the plot, not to mention they'd need someone as Kate Kane for at least part of the first episode. It would be pretty crappy to just say...2 weeks passed, and have Luke talking about "what are they going to do now that Kate disappeared" with no on-screen explanation.


I think the major explanation about Kate 'vanishing" might be more like "she got murdered."

And as for the new Batwoman...well I mean we had Terry McGinnis for a time...Maybe this like his grandma.

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As JoelF847 notes, given the ultimate source of the info seems to be a Reddit post the content of which has now been removed, there's a fair chunk of salt this news needs to be taken with. While it could be true, of course, I think it's sensible to not borrow too much trouble until the network offers a reliable confirmation.

I also agree with Joel this could have been a test to gauge fan reactions about how they would feel about a new character vs recasting.

Another thought that is PURELY SPECULATION: it is real, but there is a typo (intentional or no) in the casting description that was leaked. The description of "Ryan Wilder" sounds an AWFUL lot like Holly Robinson. Who would make a great Catwoman for this series.

If Kate were to be replaced, having Kate disappear or even be murdered by Alice off screen would be deeply unsatisfying I think for all parties involved, within the narrative and for both the audience and the actors involved.

The first season so deeply revolved around Kate's relationships with other people. The only regular who didn't have a deep past relationship with Kate is Luke, and nonetheless they still built an important friendship. Everyone else--Jake, Kate's dad. Sophie, Kate's Ex. Julia, Kate's Other Ex. The crux of the show was arguably Alice and Kate's relationship, and also that dysfunctional sisterhood being contrasted with the closeness Kate and Mary as stepsisters are slowly building. Everyone, writers, actors, audience would suffer a major case of whiplash for that to just suddenly END with no closure. Likewise, the entire cliffhanger was Hush taking on Bruce's face to mess with Kate.

I have seen speculation that if there was a new Batwoman it would be a take on Helena Wayne would would at least resolve the cliffhanger--but not do much else to resolve the potential problems this would provide. (Also, Helena Wayne is not a lesbian, although I wouldn't mind that change to her character.) You'd really be better off cancelling Batwoman and either continuing the current cast in a new show called, say, "Batwing and Flamebird," making Luke and Mary the leads, or starting a new Gotham-based show like Birds of Prey. Which seems to be NOT what the CW wants to do. Is it possible someone could write a way to provide closure to Kate's storylines while carrying the existing regular cast toward a new, interesting relationship with a new Batwoman? Sure, it's possible. Is a typical CW writer's team capable of that? I sincerely doubt it.

But we'll wait and see what happens.


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I stand with DQ on what might occur and what's actually possible.

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The casting name of "Ryan Wilder" is most likely purposeful (assuming it's remotely real). Lots of big characters who aren't announced get cast under fake names, to keep the secret of who they're actually going to have in the show.

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Oh, and I did realize that if they want to write Kate off the show, they do still have access to Ruby Rose's stunt double. So they can have her play Batwoman in multiple scenes if in costume and probably pull off a death or whatnot at least on screen.

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