Batwoman


Television

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DeathQuaker wrote:
If they'd revamped the show as Batwing and Flamebird and made her and Luke the leads, I'd be there is a f#&+ing heartbeat. As it is, I won't say I'll NEVER watch it, but it's not a priority for me. If I hear it's better than I expect I might catch up later.

The more I think about this, the more of a beautiful not to be fantasy it becomes. If they didn't want to recast Kate, I would have loved to have just seen the story carry on with the existing characters with Luke and Mary as the leads, still contending with Alice, Jake, the Crows, Julia, Sophie, etc. They have enough relationships together it would work. And for representation, you'd have two leads of color and two or more major characters who are LGBTQ (Julia and Sophie, and possibly a returning Reagan). Call it "Shadow of the Bat" and have Luke and Mary work to take Kate's place, becoming Batwing and Flamebird over time, while picking up where Kate left off. You'd have to find a way to write off Kate effectively still, although I assume they have unused footage they could use and maybe have Alice succeed in killing her, and then all of them have to deal with that fallout.

Oh well. It's a nice fanfic idea anyway.


DQ,

I'm not sure watching it rewards them...but I'll certainly stop IF I feel they're not doing anything to move this along.

Dark Archive

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DeathQuaker wrote:

Call it "Shadow of the Bat" and have Luke and Mary work to take Kate's place, becoming Batwing and Flamebird over time, while picking up where Kate left off. You'd have to find a way to write off Kate effectively still, although I assume they have unused footage they could use and maybe have Alice succeed in killing her, and then all of them have to deal with that fallout.

Oh well. It's a nice fanfic idea anyway.

I'd totally dig that. Mary and Luke have some fun chemistry.

And Kate could be written out by A) leaving with Alice, the only real solution she could find to keep her on the straight and narrow being to remain by her side for the rest of her life, far from Gotham, or B) dying with Alice, holding her hand and saying that she'll never leave her behind again or something schmaltzy like that.

And I totally hear you on having zero interest in this new character, and feeling bad for the actress, since she's being thrown into an impossible situation.


Bring in an understudy of Hugo Strange with a secret identity of The Gotham Frankenstein. Have him bring back Alice's twin, with altered DNA that makes her alternately shrink and grow. That method of raising the dead, scrambles the DNA so she wouldn't be a paralel twin anymore. That mother, who had her guts liquified, could come back with an acid touch.

He's also a gifted surgeon, who can also save Batwoman, when she gets shot in the face, making another actress believable. I would totally watch a birds of prey spinoff, so, too many characters problem solved.


So I typically watch streaming shows with my cousin and/or his wife. Less so in the virus era but we're all fairly protocol-minded and there's room to distance at their place. She's a major comic geek, plays 5e Eberron to make things nice with her hubby, and loves her some Batwoman.

Saw the season 2 premier. Will not be watching the rest. Not my choice. I didn't think it was terrible compared to the offerings from season 1. In fact it fit right in. Pizza + Beer + CampyShow = Funtimes. Plot holes? Who the #### cares! Alas cousin's SO not so keen on it and she's the decider. Ah well.


Quark,

I'm mostly ambivalent due to the fact I enjoyed season 1 and seeing Ruby Rose/Kate gone from the mask is more than a little jarring.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I overall enjoyed S1, but thought the premier of S2 was a train wreck. Aside from not being a fan of a new character rather than re-casting, it suffered horribly from trying to fit the last 3 non-filmed episodes of S1 in, plus adding in the new Batwoman, and jammed it all together way too much. They should have taken at least 3 episodes to do all that, not the least of which would have been making new Batwoman more organically introduced and not just part of the team after 1 episode.

Was also super disappointed in how they resolved things with Hush. All that build up, and he is beaten by untrained new Batwoman in a single episode. Doesn't mean we wont' be able to see him again I guess, but would have liked to see him as Bruce Wayne a bit longer, do more damage that way. Also, since they've not introduced the ACTOR who could play Bruce Wayne/Batman in later seasons if he ever shows up again, it would have been good to let him show he had the chops for it now (and even get the batsuit to show that side of things).


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Thomas Seitz wrote:

Quark,

I'm mostly ambivalent due to the fact I enjoyed season 1 and seeing Ruby Rose/Kate gone from the mask is more than a little jarring.

As indicated by JoelF847's remarks, and others I've heard and read, the writing is a horrible mess with lack of continuity being the most jarring.

Ruby Rose was the draw for me and though I gave it only one chance I'm comfortable moving on after that total ####### #### of a season 2 'pilot'.


Oh no, Quark, I totally agree with Joel's assessment. I just hoped it wouldn't turn out the way it did...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Full disclosure: I've not seen it. I've seen by and large widespread praise for Javicia Leslie and the character of Ryan. The problem seems to be as I feared... shoehorning a brand new character into a world so tightly built around a different lead who is now suddenly gone, that while the character is eminently watchable, the plot and pacing is awkward at best. Seems like they would have been better off fully rebooting the series and if they didn't want to lose the cast who wanted to stay, cast them in different characters/re-written characters. That of course would have also been wildly unpopular.

Curious to hear how it does a few episodes in though.


Yeah I have no problem if there had been a more...logical reason for Ryan to take up the Bat-mantle IF there had been more...introduction to this character. But between the shoe horning and the most certainly condensation of three episodes because of Covid, it's hard for me to be...accepting of all these changes.

Still...we'll see how long this all lasts.


Bruce Wayne trains for years in "Nepal" with a quasi-ninja grandmaster, etc. to become Batman; some homeless person picks up an article of clothing and wham! she fights like a superhero. Wut?

Was there any explanation (outside the episode) why they went with this?

Is wearing the Bat-mantle some sort of symbiote like Venom now?


Quark,

Ryan apparently DOES have martial arts training...just maybe not as sophisticated as Bruce or possibly even Kate's. But as to why...I have no fing idea.


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There was a single reference to "all those years" Ryan spent teaching karate, but so far that's all the justification we have for her combat skills.

Overall I liked both Ryan and Ryan-as-Batwoman more than I thought I might, but I agree with those that felt the episode was rushed, or compressed.

Spoiler:
I didn't want Tommy to impersonate Bruce for any lengthy period, but it felt like he got exposed too quickly to do any damage -- he even found the Batmobile for them.

And what's up with Ryan not being killed or even seriously injured by the kryptonite bullet that was supposed to have taken Kate out, and why does she seem to be infected by something that should only be harmful to Kryptonians? Normal humans affected by kryptonite only happened in Earth-167's Smallville, right?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Spoiler:
Kryptonite has been toxic to humans since Crisis (86 Comic Crisis.) Byrne established it was radioactive in Man of Steel. Lex’s Kryptonite ring robbed him of his hand and ultimately his life.


So for those calling for a recast...you got your wish.

Non-Ruby Rose Kate Kane returns

However it appears she won't be taking back the mantle for reasons I guess.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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So.... why did we go through this whole angst about replacing Batwoman if they decided to recast Kate after them explicitly going into Big Reasons why they wouldn't?

And they could cast Javicia Leslie, who I understand is excellent (I have not been watching, I've just heard she's good even if the writing is bad), as a lead in, IDK, another action/superhero series where she wouldn't constantly be compared to another character or treated like a tokenistic knockoff of an established, known character? I mean, this show is barely tottering on the edge of viable viewership, it's not like it's giving her a great chance at recognition. (Also, apropos of nothing but speaking of potential for black lesbian superheroes on television, who are established and also have an amazing performer behind them, why the hell don't we get a Thunder spinoff of Black Lightning already? To be clear, not as an alternative, but in addition to a Javicia Leslie vehicle suited to her potential. I am here for as many lesbians and women of color on TV as possible, and also have my Kate Kane and... uh... eat her too? I think I lost my train of thought...)

Damon: FWIW, in Crisis, all the Earths (including Smallville's Earth) merged together, it's quite possible kryptonite does have an effect on people in unexpected ways now.


I'm disappointed by the disconnect between the CW shows outside of annual crossovers. Okay, over in Black Lightning they did make an offhand reference to Barry when they needed something brought from Central City "in a flash." But Ryan gets poisoned by Kryptonite and no one reaches out to Supergirl or Lena for help, or even information? No, for dramatic purposes her survival is down to a medical student and a mystical flower. As with the Black Lightning reference, they wouldn't have to have guest starred anyone, just made the connection via scripted dialogue.

The final scene in tonight's Batwoman confused me until I saw an explanation online. Still not sure how much sense it makes to me.

Spoiler:
So, Kate is alive, badly burned, heavily bandaged and holed up below a barber shop in Gotham City. What "body parts" of hers were found by Safiyah's people? All those hanging crystals/vials that Safiyah showed Alice might have contained blood, but they all seemed to be of uniform size and too small for most "body parts."

Is she getting a new face intentionally, to hide the fact of her survival until she knows who tried to kill her? If so, I wonder who's she going to be until it's safe for Kate Kane to resurface?


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My decision to just skip it is now confirmed as a wise choice for me. This was the other shoe falling. There is now no question that they did what they did to the story to create their own Batwoman. The Arrowverse was once the best live action DC universe ever created, IMHO. Now its beginning to sputter.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Agree with what everyone else said, especially the lack of reaching out to the Supes family for kryptonite assistance. I also want to know how come Safiyah had zero guards on the precious flowers, and

Spoiler:
stored her explosives on the same field they grew in?

Also, I didn't even realize

Spoiler:
the end scene was supposed to be Kate, I thought it was introducing the next big bad.

It also doesn't help that the entire Safiyah group was horribly acted (the only exception was Ocean), and that the writing this year is also horrible and non-sensical. Even the fights are bad (or non-existent - we get the set up for Batwoman fighting a bunch of white clad islanders, then the commercial and she's captured by them. Then again, being near dead from kryptonite poisoning and going from badass to weak as a kitten doesn't really work well either).

Damon,

Spoiler:
The body parts weren't in Safiyah's dungeon, have no clue why she had a mobile of red crystals there, the body parts were discovered downriver from the plane crash site, and DNA tested.


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Maybe they were cloned parts... I dunno. There is idea (floating in my head) that since we're getting Roman Sionis/Black Mask, that might who is holding Kate.

But mostly yeah it's been a terrible year for Batwoman in terms of story telling. (And some fight scenes)

As for the whole kryptonite thing, I'm not sure how I feel about that since there's PLENTY of super science guys Arrowverse could have brought into help Ryan. But eh.


JoelF847,

Spoiler:
ammonium nitrate is used in explosives but is also a good fertilizer. That was mentioned as soon as the Crows first smelled it. So "the explosives" were in the field fertilizing the flowers.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Damon Griffin wrote:

JoelF847,

Spoiler:
ammonium nitrate is used in explosives but is also a good fertilizer. That was mentioned as soon as the Crows first smelled it. So "the explosives" were in the field fertilizing the flowers.

Yes, I'm aware it was mentioned, but

Spoiler:
there's a big difference between being used in explosives and being explosive itself under very specific conditions, and having a simple torch light an open air storage of fertilizer and burning the entire field. You don't grow a secret island magic flower economy for centuries and leave a bunch of explosives which a stray spark can ignite all over your one and only crop. Then again Safiyah's goons and assassins are so bad that Lucas and Mary were able to take one down, and two of them couldn't contain a bound prisoner who they knew was extremely dangerous, so maybe her security on the farm was equally and embarrassingly bad (or poorly written).

Regardless, I'm suspecting that MAYBE Kate will turn into Bruce ala Batman Beyond. Maybe?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Feros wrote:
My decision to just skip it is now confirmed as a wise choice for me. This was the other shoe falling. There is now no question that they did what they did to the story to create their own Batwoman.

Typically on television, most writers earn royalties for characters they create personally, whenever they are used (this is oversimplifying and there's various contractual things that can vary this but hopefully you get the gist). On shows based on established books/comic books, writers lose out because most of the characters are already owned by DC so nobody earns anything extra. Caroline Dries was clearly hoping to fill her own pockets by creating her own OC Batwoman that she would then earn extra money off of if/when Ryan got used in Crisis-like crossover shows.

Quote:
The Arrowverse was once the best live action DC universe ever created, IMHO. Now its beginning to sputter.

I have to admit I haven't watched ANYTHING new on the CW since around fall of last year. I was really into a lot of these shows, but between the writing getting too atrocious to bear (and I generally handwave a LOT of plot nonsense as long as I am having fun watching superheroes be super) and my being completely unable to keep up with the CW's scheduling (stuff coming on in fall, winter, spring, not till late October, etc.) I just have ceased trying to keep up. I even liked Black Lightning but kept forgetting when it was on and now have about a season and a half to catch up with. I also lost track of Legends of Tomorrow.

Is there any of this that's actually worth catching up with? This is a serious question to the rest of you--what do you recommend?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

DeathQuaker wrote:
Feros wrote:
My decision to just skip it is now confirmed as a wise choice for me. This was the other shoe falling. There is now no question that they did what they did to the story to create their own Batwoman.

Typically on television, most writers earn royalties for characters they create personally, whenever they are used (this is oversimplifying and there's various contractual things that can vary this but hopefully you get the gist). On shows based on established books/comic books, writers lose out because most of the characters are already owned by DC so nobody earns anything extra. Caroline Dries was clearly hoping to fill her own pockets by creating her own OC Batwoman that she would then earn extra money off of if/when Ryan got used in Crisis-like crossover shows.

Quote:
The Arrowverse was once the best live action DC universe ever created, IMHO. Now its beginning to sputter.

I have to admit I haven't watched ANYTHING new on the CW since around fall of last year. I was really into a lot of these shows, but between the writing getting too atrocious to bear (and I generally handwave a LOT of plot nonsense as long as I am having fun watching superheroes be super) and my being completely unable to keep up with the CW's scheduling (stuff coming on in fall, winter, spring, not till late October, etc.) I just have ceased trying to keep up. I even liked Black Lightning but kept forgetting when it was on and now have about a season and a half to catch up with. I also lost track of Legends of Tomorrow.

Is there any of this that's actually worth catching up with? This is a serious question to the rest of you--what do you recommend?

Superman & Lois is good and worth watching, though it's now on an unplanned hiatus due to Covid-19 on set. Instead, that's leading to next week's early return on Supergirl, so we'll see how that show is doing this year as many of the Arrowverse are sputtering.

The Flash has been enjoyable so far, but only has had 4 episodes this season - 3 wrapping up the last season and 1 that's the "real" new season. Something seems a bit off with it to me, but not that I can put my finger on. I'm beginning to wonder if filming under Covid-19 protocols is impacting performances (it's certainly noticeable in filming and writing choices, with things seeming less epic, fewer crowds, hand to hand fight sequences, etc.)

Legends of Tomorrow hasn't returned yet, think it's likely in May from what I remember, along with a S2 of Stargirl.


Legends isn't until may. Same with Stargirl who will have one of the more potent power houses/fearsome foe in Eclipso. So there's that.

Honest what's annoyed me about Flash is the villains haven't been great as they could have been. I mean yeah Bloodwork wasn't awesome but he was at least more formible. This season now (especially after the rough start) it feels like the show is adrift.

Mostly though Superman and Lois is probably the best CW show so far.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

COVID-19 affected a LOT, from the ending of series last year through now. A lot of series finales and openers had to be scrapped and redone, from Wandavision to CW stuff.

Thanks for the recs. I'm not a superfan of Superman (although I like him; who doesn't like Superman?) so I hadn't made an effort to try the new series but if y'all recommend it, I'll check it out. Thanks.


DQ,

While I'm in no way the world's biggest Superman fan, this series truly comes to grip with Clark/Superman's human side moreso than his greater qualities.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Ugh, another cringe worthy, over acted, poorly written, COVID-19 too obviously impacting the scenes episode (Kate's funeral had 4 people, and not even Sophie?, the "press conference" with the police commissioner had 1 reporter, and the protester ambushing him on defund the police had a whole 1 person in it?). I'm questioning whether I should continue watching, but have unrealistic hopes they'll have their new Kate re-take the Batwoman mantle and write Ryan out into the background by end of the season.


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Joel,

That seems unlikely. It seems more like we might have Batwoman versus other Batwoman. Maybe.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Joel,

That seems unlikely. It seems more like we might have Batwoman versus other Batwoman. Maybe.

Agreed, in which case I'll be rooting for Kate.


I would.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:

Quark,

I'm mostly ambivalent due to the fact I enjoyed season 1 and seeing Ruby Rose/Kate gone from the mask is more than a little jarring.

Watch some Dr.Who. That will ween you away from associating a character with only one performer.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Goth Guru wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:

Quark,

I'm mostly ambivalent due to the fact I enjoyed season 1 and seeing Ruby Rose/Kate gone from the mask is more than a little jarring.

Watch some Dr.Who. That will ween you away from associating a character with only one performer.

But it's the same character. I, and most fans would have been thrilled to continue to watch the adventures of Kate Kane, Batwoman, instead of someone we've never heard of, who doesn't fit or earn the role. It would be the equivalent of having the Doctor replaced by Bill Nye the Science Guy, and saying, "hey, he's a doctor, so enjoy him as the new lead!" (To be fair, I'd be down for a Bill Nye led show where he uses science to deal with weird, alien, and supernatural threats, but that show wouldn't be the same as Doctor Who.)


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Yeah there's a BIG difference between the Doctor who is mostly an Alien and thus has had many different faces/personalities, but still some core things about him/her/it. Versus Batwoman who is fundamentally different when you compare Kate Kane (a military trained and highly proficient fighter) and Ryan Wilder, who I would say barely hold her own in a fight most of the time.


With her kryptonite poisoning, she will get stronger fast.
She badly needs someone to change that green to blue before she dies.


I mean if this wasn't green but X-Kryptonite...maybe but it just seems weird to me.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

While last night it was another not so great episode, it did have one thing which went a long way to making some of the earlier episodes more palatable. The AI module for the Batmobile at least explained where she's doing things she has no training to do - I wonder if Lucas also put an AI into the Batsuit.... (nah, unlikely, since she'd actually be able to fight better then).


Yeah. I mean the AI for driving, makes sense. AI for fighting better, unlikely.


They listened to the fans and brought back Kate.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Goth Guru wrote:
They listened to the fans and brought back Kate.

Except not to stay.

However, the 2nd half of the season was a great season of Alice in Gotham, and I enjoyed the main character's growth and heroism. Unfortunately they didn't update the show title to reflect this, and kept it as Batwoman.


Eh. I mean maybe it will be another plot point when Season 3 starts...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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well, regardless of writing, I'm going to have to watch Season 3 now...

Bridget Regan cast as Poison Ivy.

<3<3<3<3 Bridget. (And Ivy, for that matter. But especially Bridget.)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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DeathQuaker wrote:

well, regardless of writing, I'm going to have to watch Season 3 now...

Bridget Regan cast as Poison Ivy.

<3<3<3<3 Bridget. (And Ivy, for that matter. But especially Bridget.)

I read this yesterday and thought of posting it, figured you'd appreciate it. And she'll be an asset to the show, which definitely needs some better direction after a shaky season 2.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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If I was in charge of the DCEU I'd take the whole cast of Batwoman--who are its main asset--ditch the rest of the crew/show runners, and make a DCEU film written by Gail Simone (or at least co-written by her as I don't think she's ever done a film script) and directed by... let's say Cathy Yan (she directed Birds of Prey; yes, the movie had issues, but I'd put those more on producers and writers; there was excellent direction in the film, IMO). (I am open to other suggestions on director.) Let's call it "Gotham: Legend of the Batwoman" or something like that.

Now I just gotta get hired by the DCEU. I'm SURE being a public health communications editor makes me totally qualified to produce movies, right?


I mean I'd hire you for the choices, DQ. I, for one, would love to have Gail Simone doing some TV writing.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Well, as Batwoman episodes go it wasn't awful. Sadly Ryan I have little to say about. She gets the worst writing, although the actress does her best with it.

As an episode of Alice of Gothamland it was pretty good. Alice as a completely ruthless and evil villain is still the best hero this show has.

Mary as always is Best Of All. Glad she's a full MD now.

And I really like Sophie a lot now. I'm sorry, Sophie, I said such mean things about you in season 1.

Cool to see Batwing evolving.

And f%%# YEAH Montoya!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I had hoped that we'd get a bit more of the new Mad Hatter. The revelation that there's 12 Bat villain artifacts out there means we can't expect too much from any one of them, but I'd hoped maybe 2-3 episodes each, rather than purely episodic ones. But I felt that the Mad Hatter's obvious thematic connections to Alice would stick around longer, with them competing for who's the craziest most evil personification of the Alice and Wonderland books and trying to out do each other. Oh well.

The good news is that my expectations for the show are so low, I literally can't be disappointed by it anymore. Only surprised when they do something better.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Given Alice made a point of saying she didn't actually kill Hatter, I expect he is going to return later.

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