For those who don't feel the flavor of Charisma's connection to magic as some element of their "spirit" fits, there are other examples in PF1 than Sorcerors (and other spontaneous casters) and use magic device.We've pretty much beaten of a quadruped that is no longer living for sorcerer and UMD: covered already.
SLA's: cover the range of stats: con, wis, cha, int are all there.
Smite evil: you are "call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil"... Seems like a cha check to me, an appeal and not innate.
lay on hands: has more to do with the classes casting stat IMO and/or the same point as smite.
channel energy: I'm not sure manipulating divine energy is the same as innate magic everyone has. Well, unless you're using a divine item.
Undead: Unlike mortal creatures they all are infused with magic to animate them. I wouldn't argue if THEY had resonance, or any other creature "animated by spiritual or supernatural forces".It just isn't as cut and dry as you make it seem. A rogue using minor/major magic uses int alone with the wizard using school abilities. A kineticist uses con [which seems the BEST match for using your 'internal' magic], A cleric uses wisdom for domain powers. This makes it so there really isn't a stand out stat for this kind of thing.
Oh I dunno. Charisma has plenty of things other than sorcerer and umd. I know some of these are because of the sorcerer, but a lot of spontaneous casters who use magic innately do so because of charisma.
Bloodrager uses charisma for their casting stat. Arcanist knows his spells from intelligence, but can innately exploit them through charisma. Bards use it, as their force of personality exudes from themselves into the world in the form of magic. Magus to, when going Eldritch Scion, goes from learned prepared casting to spontaneous innate casting, they go from Int to Cha.
Wisdom typically is used to represent magic from a divine or natural source.
Intelligence to learned spells.
Charisma for innate power.
Sure, this doesn't work for everything [oracle and paladin being the main exceptions, though I suspect charisma as their casting stat was to reflect other aspects of that kind of character.] Id say that makes it a pretty good standout for innate magical ability, Arcanist and Magus change being the main points.
Oh I dunno. Charisma has plenty of things other than sorcerer and umd.
But it isn't the ONLY stat that covers those other things. All 3 mental stats and Con can be used for spells and/or SLA's.
Id say that makes it a pretty good standout for innate magical ability
As a casting stat? Sure. That isn't resonance though.
I said the concept of animal magnetism gave rise to the concept of personal magnetismAnd I disagree. As I said, I see nothing that indicates animal magnetism did that or merely the ACTUAL effects of scientific magnetism, the electromagnetic force.
EI: a physical phenomenon produced by the motion of electric charge, resulting in attractive and repulsive forces between objects got equated with the ability to attract and charm people.
PS: As to the google search, the animal magnetism THEY speak of isn't the one you had a link for before. It's NOT linked by the historical version of animal magnetism but the the more modern version that is "a quality of sexual attractiveness". It's more that the modern version is type of modern magnetism. None of them are about historical mesmerism.
PPS: And I'm not sure how ANY of this relates to resonance in any substantial way: animal magnetism [historical] has closer ties to do with Ki than resonance, so it seems to have more to do with spell points.
Well, I can't prove the etymology, and as I already said I don't really care about the order the terms came in, just that they're related.
If you looked at the first page of the google results and came away with "they're just talking about sex appeal" then you use a very selective reading indeed. The very first hit is
It enables the man or woman who possesses it to attract or repel at will, or to draw to themselves SUCCESS, MONEY, FAME, POWER, HAPPINESS (if they use it wisely)! Animal magnetism, then, is a very subtle substance filling the entire universe.
I don't see the others focusing on sex appeal either. If you want the connection to "mesmerism" then add that to the search. That gets me, for instance, a 1903 paper titled
The secret of animal magnetism, mesmerism, clairvoyancy and mind reading; how to develop the magnetic power
and a blog post about mesmerism
The expression of Animal Magnetism, in our relationships with other people, finds origin in what is also called “personal magnetism”, a faster, natural and more sure way to approach other people.
Personal magnetism can be manifested through gaze (hypnotic gaze), touch (magnetic touch) and voice.
And the point is that by viewing charisma as a measure of something like animal magnetism it becomes a real force, capable of interacting with magic items via UMD in PF1 or Resonance in PF2.
Ironically, charisma's original usage was an indication that someone was blessed by the gods. The belief that gods were part of everyday life meant that innate beneficial traits were instead divine. The separation between divine casting and charisma casting would indicate that the Pathfinder gods, and whatever grants power to druids, are all usurpers.
It's probably not going to be helpful to poke at the origins of the words beyond what has been stated in the Pathfinder books, and that leads us to the weird "personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance" phrase which doesn't even start to explain the magic powers.
Oh I dunno. Charisma has plenty of things other than sorcerer and umd.But it isn't the ONLY stat that covers those other things. All 3 mental stats and Con can be used for spells and/or SLA's.
Id say that makes it a pretty good standout for innate magical abilityAs a casting stat? Sure. That isn't resonance though.
Right. But what I was getting at was of the casting stats, the one that typically represents an innate ability is Charisma. Resonance represents your innate magical ability to synchronize with magical items. Which is why between the options presented, charisma does jump out as the best fit
I'm still digging the metaphysical encumbrance interpretation. I think that'll be fairly easy to explain to new players.
Right. But what I was getting at was of the casting stats, the one that typically represents an innate ability is Charisma. Resonance represents your innate magical ability to synchronize with magical items. Which is why between the options presented, charisma does jump out as the best fit
Casters that do not prepare spells, yes. Innate? I don't agree. Bards aren't innate. Oracles aren't [someone comes along and slaps them with curse + everything else]. Paladins get it from 'good' and/or deities, Mediums channel spirits, Mesmerists draw their magic from the Astral Plane, ect. Pretty much only the sorcerer is painted as an innate caster.
I thought SLAs are always Cha-based in 3rd Ed/PF1
No. The default is cha but countless SLA don't follow the default. Take for instance all the SLA's granted by classes that aren't Cha based: all kineticist sla'a, all wizard school sla's, all cleric domain sla's, rogue sla's, spiritualist sla's, qinggong monk sla's, ect.
I'm still digging the metaphysical encumbrance interpretation.
For me, that falls apart with consumables: if you look at it from an encumbrance, it's like rations you ate: I know I marked them off after I ate them. Or water used if I catch on fire. IMO, used items shouldn't still affect an encumbrance after they stop working as they aren't exerting any 'metaphysical' force anymore.
PS: That said, if your players can work with that view, more power to you and good gaming: It just doesn't work for me. ;)
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I think it's a bit silly to argue about how Resonance is interpretted in game. I'm pretty sure all of us can come up with a head canon that can smooth over the cracks in the system, we've been doing it all our lives.
I simply reject the notion that there should be a game mechanic that limits the number of potions I can drink based on how many rings I'm wearing. I could imagine it as out-of-phase speed-force pim particle crystal energy shenanigans, I just don't want it.
The stories I tell don't make magical items a strain, and don't turn magic potions into a crapshoot. So, one way or another those rules are getting ignored or houseruled in my home games, unless I can successfully argue against them during the playtest.
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I simply reject the notion that there should be a game mechanic that limits the number of potions I can drink based on how many rings I'm wearing. I could imagine it as out-of-phase speed-force pim particle crystal energy shenanigans, I just don't want it.
I'm more ambivalent towards the mechanic, but you summed up my issue with the mechanic far better than I could have.
I get wanting to limit the number of potions/wand charges. I get wanting to limit the number of magic items. I don't like the idea of using the same pool for both.
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Yes they have changed how they work, but you're missing the point I made: We still have enough information in relation to the magic items to gauge if we like or dislike the system on that aspect. If I have to spend Resonance for a 1 minute Invisibility duration, when I have to worry about how much Resonance I have in relation to healing options (which counts as effective HP for a given adventuring day), I won't like it due to how much it shoehorns my playstyle into balancing effective HP and cool magical effects.People often assume they will dislike new dynamics before trying them. They are sometimes correct, but by no means always.
But I actually wasn't talking about that. I was talking about trying to remove the Resonance rules before seeing the way they work mechanically and interact with all the other rules. And how it's a terrible idea because it will warp the game in utterly unpredictable ways that cannot even be compensated for since you don't know the way things normally work.
Imagine that someone, having never played PF1, decided that they hated the slots system and didn't like charges so items with charges were now unlimited use, and you could have as many items in one slot as you wanted. The results of a game using those changes diverge rapidly and extremely from those of a standard game of PF1.
That's the sort of thing you're courting by removing Resonance without understanding how it interacts with the magic item rules. And is a terrible idea. Which is sorta the whole point I was making there.
Well, consider the CLW Wand paradigm of PF1. For Clerics, it meant they didn't have to invest in healing with their character choices (at least, not as much as if they didn't have one), simply because CLW Wands provided cheap "effective HP" in the form of a consumable. Paladins might not have needed to invest as much in Lay on Hands, but since it didn't conflict with action economy that much to ruin their character options, and had multiple applications beyond just healing with proper archetypes, they did it regardless.
Anyway, the point is that this assumes PF2 doesn't change the "effective HP" paradigm, and they don't since we know that consumables, such as healing potions and wands, still exist in a (mostly) similar format from PF1. So, we know that "effective HP" is still a thing; the only kicker here is that Paizo has now put a proper limit on how much "effective HP" you can have in a given day through the Resonance system.
So, when I want to use items that give me cool special options (such as going Invisible), I'm paying "effective HP" to do that, because using those items is being done in exchange of using consumables for "effective HP," whereas in PF1, I didn't have to make those sacrifices. I could go Invisible without a care of whether or not I can recover from whatever injuries may be inflicted upon me. (Except for the arbitrary limit of said item, but that's a lot easier to worry about and account for than "Is it a wise decision to use this item for fear of not having enough effective HP?")
The above example is precisely why I don't like it, and I don't even have to playtest it to raise this as a legitimate concern, since a lot of the concern for this comes from PF1 mechanics, which have changed only minorly in comparison to what we know about PF2 now; I now have to forego my cool options for fear of not having enough effective HP to make it through the adventuring day, whereas in PF1, I practically never had to worry about it as long as I was prepared enough for it in the form of appropriate tactics and purchases. Here, it doesn't matter what amount of preparation I have, since it means I will either waste Resonance points for fear of not having enough HP for my character to live and forego any cool/useful stuff my character could do, or I run out of Resonance trying to be cool, and get my character killed for it because I burned through my "effective HP" pool to do so.
I simply reject the notion that there should be a game mechanic that limits the number of potions I can drink based on how many rings I'm wearing. I could imagine it as out-of-phase speed-force pim particle crystal energy shenanigans, I just don't want it.
One of my tentative house-rules is simply to add a clause to Potions of Healing stipulating that younautomatically succeed at overspending checks to activate such a potion while Dying.
That way the 'balance' of using RP to limit magic items is maintained, but neither will a character ever die just because their potion turned into colored water.
Anyway, the point is that this assumes PF2 doesn't change the "effective HP" paradigm, and they don't since we know that consumables, such as healing potions and wands, still exist in a (mostly) similar format from PF1. So, we know that "effective HP" is still a thing; the only kicker here is that Paizo has now put a proper limit on how much "effective HP" you can have in a given day through the Resonance system.
To Deadman's point, we don't know what else has changed with the system. Specifically, will rituals allow the effective HP that spamming cure light wounds wands? The medicine skill? Perhaps something else?
It's probable you're correct, but possible that the change really does make sense in the new paradigm. It's definitely going to be something worth testing as completely as possible, finding ALL the possible pitfalls, before it becomes finalized.
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I simply reject the notion that there should be a game mechanic that limits the number of potions I can drink based on how many rings I'm wearing. I could imagine it as out-of-phase speed-force pim particle crystal energy shenanigans, I just don't want it.One of my tentative house-rules is simply to add a clause to Potions of Healing stipulating that younautomatically succeed at overspending checks to activate such a potion while Dying.
That way the 'balance' of using RP to limit magic items is maintained, but neither will a character ever die just because their potion turned into colored water.
That only solves one problem. I can never see myself telling a player "I know you bought that water breathing potion just for this moment, and it'd be super appropriate if you could use it now to dive in the pool and search, but you used a wand to heal up after the last fight so you've got a 50% of it working."
I wouldn't be able to look my players in the eye and stand firm on that ruling.
Likewise: "I'm sorry, the scroll of remove disease you brought to flesh out your character's healing kit has a 50% chance to go up in smoke because you put on and used those boots earlier today."
If these situations *literally never* come up, then okay whatever, but the very second they do I will have a house rule document out before the overspending dice stop rolling.
That only solves one problem.
Yes that is the point. Trying to solve multiple problems with over-arching rules is what created that problem to begin with.
Thankfully, the concept is extensible. I could instead write a Tag that allows automatic success when overspending to activate, and write a white-list of items which now have that tag (such as potions of healing) for my table.
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So, when I want to use items that give me cool special options (such as going Invisible), I'm paying "effective HP" to do that, because using those items is being done in exchange of using consumables for "effective HP," whereas in PF1, I didn't have to make those sacrifices. I could go Invisible without a care of whether or not I can recover from whatever injuries may be inflicted upon me. (Except for the arbitrary limit of said item, but that's a lot easier to worry about and account for than "Is it a wise decision to use this item for fear of not having enough effective HP?")
Exactly. I'm not sure what's weirder, that people don't recognize the burn mechanic in a fake mustache and glasses, or that someone thought the burn mechanic was so great that everyone needed it.
I'm still digging the metaphysical encumbrance interpretation.For me, that falls apart with consumables: if you look at it from an encumbrance, it's like rations you ate: I know I marked them off after I ate them. Or water used if I catch on fire. IMO, used items shouldn't still affect an encumbrance after they stop working as they aren't exerting any 'metaphysical' force anymore.
PS: That said, if your players can work with that view, more power to you and good gaming: It just doesn't work for me. ;)
There isn't really a mechanical equivalent to consumables. If charisma is your "magic muscle", then using a consumable is like lifting weights for a bit. It makes you tired.
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Yeah I hated Resolve too. Resonance is just an even more pervasive form of it.
I also liked it. Didn't like the use of it to fuel class abilities though, but for simply checking it you were dying or healing after battle, Resolve/Stamina is my favorite iteration of that mechanic.
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Anyway, the point is that this assumes PF2 doesn't change the "effective HP" paradigm, and they don't since we know that consumables, such as healing potions and wands, still exist in a (mostly) similar format from PF1. So, we know that "effective HP" is still a thing; the only kicker here is that Paizo has now put a proper limit on how much "effective HP" you can have in a given day through the Resonance system.To Deadman's point, we don't know what else has changed with the system. Specifically, will rituals allow the effective HP that spamming cure light wounds wands? The medicine skill? Perhaps something else?
It's probable you're correct, but possible that the change really does make sense in the new paradigm. It's definitely going to be something worth testing as completely as possible, finding ALL the possible pitfalls, before it becomes finalized.
Doubtful, simply because Rituals are meant to be something anyone can do with the proper ingredients and know-how, and that Paizo has specifically stated they want to remove the CLW Wand dependency. Simply disguising it as a Ritual doesn't really remove the dependency that Paizo wishes to be rid of.
The Medicine skill has only demonstrated the ability to remove conditions with a Legendary Skill feat (which is a 16th level requirement), and nothing else. While a blog post says it can be used to heal in-combat, we don't know how much for, if it scales, how long it takes to do so, etc. It could be possible for a spell-less healer, but since magic is a thing, I highly doubt Medicine will be as instantly gratuitous, at the very least without severe higher level investment, and at most not at all. It might be useful for out-of-combat healing, but now you're back to the CLW Wand issue being reskinned, not to mention the "Everyone Takes Perception" paradigm being reskinned from PF1 to instead be "Everyone Takes Medicine," which just seems silly to me.
As for something else, who knows. I just don't think Paizo wants players to have an easy means of restoring HP similar to CLW Wands, otherwise they would be missing a major reason why they invented the Resonance mechanic, so the odds of some other mechanic doing what a CLW Wand already does just seems counterintuitive to this point.
Maybe if the math balances out to not always require healing, in-combat or not, then it won't be as bad as I make it out to be. However, the most difficult of fights will most certainly put that aspect to the test, and at my tables, numerous fights are built and improved to be difficult to face.
We know there was a way for a barbarian to be the main healer of one of their internal playtest parties. So there is almost certainly something we're not being told about.
Mind,up until this last week I had assumed the barbarian wasn't a caster, and that is possibly not the case (Mark talked about there being a way for non-caster classes to get spell slots up to 8th level, through multiclassing or something kind of feat I assume).
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If we are talking about Effective HP then I think a lot of concerns are based on a myopic vision of it to be honest. Going invisible in most situations is effective HP, because getting caught leads to downsides (9/10 a fight) which lead to HP loss. If you can't see that being invisible for a minute can save you a whole lot more damage than a single potion I question your inventiveness is using that invisibility well.
Same for most other things. Magic gloves of climbing, thats effective HP a lot of the time because a) falling causes damage and b) you are normally climbing to get towards something (which in a fight the longer you are climbing the longer the enemy is likely getting free shots at you) or get away from something (double bad for your HP if you fall whilst trying to run away!)
I'm reminded of the Resolve in Starfinder debate where people honestly thought it was better to keep resolve in case you went down, rather than spend that resolve to stop yourself going down in the first place.
Even then so long as you are SUPER worried about making sure you've got that Resonance to use a wand and save a life, unless they add something to the game that drains Resonance you are only really having to worry about spending the last point, not the 1-26 depending on level (assuming there are no feat options to get more) others.
Not every use of Invisibility can spare you tons of HP. Monsters that see invisibility are very common by 8th level in PF1, and I don't see anything to suggest this has changed, unlike Weaknesses and Resistances, which has been addressed. If a PC doesn't know a monster can see invisibility, that's effective HP and action economy he's wasted on a monster who has a counter for it.
I'm not sure if Resolve is a proper comparison simply because Resolve was mostly an effective HP mechanic. If Resolve was used for numerous things outside of effective HP, you'd have a point, but I don't remember that being the case here.
I also wouldn't be surprised if there is a condition that reduces your Resonance (an Enervated condition, perhaps?), or reduces your Charisma (which in turn reduces Resonance available). The former of which isn't likely, but the latter is most easily possible.
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I'm pretty sure all of us can come up with a head canon that can smooth over the cracks in the system, we've been doing it all our lives.
I'd take that bet. ;)
There isn't really a mechanical equivalent to consumables. If charisma is your "magic muscle", then using a consumable is like lifting weights for a bit. It makes you tired.
That seems like fatigue/exhaustion and THOSE can be cured/recovered from in ways that don't require waiting until the next day: hence, my not seeing metaphysical encumbrance as a satisfying interpretation.
Exactly. I'm not sure what's weirder, that people don't recognize the burn mechanic in a fake mustache and glasses, or that someone thought the burn mechanic was so great that everyone needed it.
A million times this and it's hard to express how much I loathe burn.
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There isn't really a mechanical equivalent to consumables. If charisma is your "magic muscle", then using a consumable is like lifting weights for a bit. It makes you tired.That seems like fatigue/exhaustion and THOSE can be cured/recovered from in ways that don't require waiting until the next day: hence, my not seeing metaphysical encumbrance as a satisfying interpretation.
Fatigue and exhaustion usually take eight hours of rest to recover from...
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Fatigue and exhaustion usually take eight hours of rest to recover from...There isn't really a mechanical equivalent to consumables. If charisma is your "magic muscle", then using a consumable is like lifting weights for a bit. It makes you tired.That seems like fatigue/exhaustion and THOSE can be cured/recovered from in ways that don't require waiting until the next day: hence, my not seeing metaphysical encumbrance as a satisfying interpretation.
Or 3 rounds with lesser restoration.
Or 3 rounds with lesser restoration.
This was what I was thinking of. That and plenty of things like Rage that restore far quicker than 8 hours rest.
Fatigue and exhaustion usually take eight hours of rest to recover from...There isn't really a mechanical equivalent to consumables. If charisma is your "magic muscle", then using a consumable is like lifting weights for a bit. It makes you tired.That seems like fatigue/exhaustion and THOSE can be cured/recovered from in ways that don't require waiting until the next day: hence, my not seeing metaphysical encumbrance as a satisfying interpretation.
So you're saying I can get resonance back after 8 hours rest? I can activate and use a wand's charges until I spent all my RP 3 times per day? If not, it's not really like exhaustion/fatigue.
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My take on Resonance is that it solves a problem that doesn't exist, and does it poorly, particularly with respect to charged items. To me, the point of magic items are that they are a source of power outside the character. Something to use when your own abilities have run dry or are inadequate for the task at hand. It makes no sense to me that your ability to chug a potion is at all dependent on whether you depleted some character-based resource shooting laser beams out of your sword 6 hours ago.
CLW wands too cheap, or contain too many charges? Change them. I think 5E's way of handling charged items is more elegant if you want to limit spamming (lower number of total charges, recharge 1dX per day, use the last charge and you risk burning it out forever).
Regarding Charisma, if we must have a character-based resource for this purpose, Charisma is the one to use for sorcerer and UMD reasons.
OP: Though I agree with you that Resonance is a bad idea in the first place, I don't think we know enough about the system as a whole yet to make informed decisions about how to ignore Resonance other than "assume all characters have infinite Resonance" (because I think it has its fingers in too many pies to simply ignore it).
Well put - and I think that you're right, it probably can't be ignored.
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Not every use of Invisibility can spare you tons of HP. Monsters that see invisibility are very common by 8th level in PF1, and I don't see anything to suggest this has changed, unlike Weaknesses and Resistances, which has been addressed. If a PC doesn't know a monster can see invisibility, that's effective HP and action economy he's wasted on a monster who has a counter for it.
I'm not sure if Resolve is a proper comparison simply because Resolve was mostly an effective HP mechanic. If Resolve was used for numerous things outside of effective HP, you'd have a point, but I don't remember that being the case here.
I also wouldn't be surprised if there is a condition that reduces your Resonance (an Enervated condition, perhaps?), or reduces your Charisma (which in turn reduces Resonance available). The former of which isn't likely, but the latter is most easily possible.
Invisibility was just an example of how thinking about EHP only in terms of damage received versus damage healed is a very narrow way to define it. But yes sometimes players make mistakes or lack the knowledge to properly deal with things. I think this is a boon, as do my players. Regardless I see this as no different than expending any resource and having it unwittingly countered. Regardless it does not matter that the resource was wasted or not, it matters that the player was willing to spend it in the first place.
Resolve is used for numerous mundane special abilities.
And you are right that there will likely be means to reduce folks Resonance, maybe not on release but eventually. If a player is concerned of such things it would then behoove them to maintain a more healthy stock, or look for other ways to solve problems. Again I consider this a good thing.
Late response is late, but meh.
It makes the gameplay more dynamic, but if people are extremely concerned with their character's well being, they aren't going to be too focused on having options to bypass certain obstacles for fear of them ending up backfiring and thereby "wasting" effective HP. Yes, I understand it's part of the game, but in this case effective HP is now competing with your ability to do cool stuff, whereas in PF1, this was a minimally invasive aspect that players could optionally take (or not take), and deal with the consequences for either choice; but that's the kicker, it's a choice, and not something hardbaked into the system. Here, you either have the Resonance to survive X amount of encounters you're having the day through raw HP, or you don't (and your character dies for it). I just think there are ways to limit effective HP for a given day without it affecting your ability to do other cool things.
I never played SF, so I didn't entirely know. I just remember people saying there was a separate pool for healing, which I assumed was what Resolve was talking about. But it wouldn't surprise me that people used it solely as a healing pool, instead of a pool that could (also) be used to do cool things. It's honestly a telling example of what people would do in regards to Resonance, since they are identical in terms of function.
If there are nonmagical ways for things to solve problems, then you're stuck with people just ignoring Resonance for anything more than effective HP through out-of-combat (or even in-combat) healing, since the nonmagical ways for resolution means they don't have to waste a valuable resource to solve the problem. I know, it's hypocritical to say that having nonmagical ways to solve problems would be nice (instead of having magic dominate everything), but if Resonance was created with the intent to have an impact on what characters can do with magic period, then it's a pitfall to consider. The big question would be if X situation should be necessary to solve with magic or not. A diplomatic/social encounter, not so much. Sneaking past guards, that's different and varies on what kind of guards we're talking, whether it's bandits, undead, etc.
I should have been more precise - I do not like THE IDEA that, let's say Fighters, have an inner magic resource that determines how magic items interact with them. Playtesting won't change this - it's a totally subjective like/dislike thing.
AFAIK this is the only specific objection you've registered to using the system; is it the only one you have? Do you object to the use of Charisma? To potions sometimes being useless? Anything else?
I should have been more precise - I do not like THE IDEA that, let's say Fighters, have an inner magic resource that determines how magic items interact with them. Playtesting won't change this - it's a totally subjective like/dislike thing.AFAIK this is the only specific objection you've registered to using the system; is it the only one you have? Do you object to the use of Charisma? To potions sometimes being useless? Anything else?
LOL Yeah, you don't have to pick just one: it's ALL bad as/is. ;)
I should have been more precise - I do not like THE IDEA that, let's say Fighters, have an inner magic resource that determines how magic items interact with them. Playtesting won't change this - it's a totally subjective like/dislike thing.AFAIK this is the only specific objection you've registered to using the system; is it the only one you have? Do you object to the use of Charisma? To potions sometimes being useless? Anything else?
I've got another; Goblins as being Charisma based, but that's easy to house rule in the final game, so no biggie. And I wil playtest it.
I WILL playtest Resonance and give feedback. Mechanicly it might work fine - and a lot of people may like it.I won't have though in MY game, so if it is too imbedded in the system to avoid, I'd probably stick with P1.
So far it looks like some of the proposed rules for P2 actually could solve some problems, we'll see.
I think that potions should work, unless there's a specific in-game reason for them to malfunction.
I should have been more precise - I do not like THE IDEA that, let's say Fighters, have an inner magic resource that determines how magic items interact with them. Playtesting won't change this - it's a totally subjective like/dislike thing.AFAIK this is the only specific objection you've registered to using the system; is it the only one you have? Do you object to the use of Charisma? To potions sometimes being useless? Anything else?I've got another; Goblins as being Charisma based, but that's easy to house rule in the final game, so no biggie. And I wil playtest it.
Whoops, I should have said "the Resonance system"---I'm not going to try to address all your PF2 concernes.
I WILL playtest Resonance and give feedback. Mechanicly it might work fine - and a lot of people may like it.I won't have though in MY game, so if it is too imbedded in the system to avoid, I'd probably stick with P1.
So far it looks like some of the proposed rules for P2 actually could solve some problems, we'll see.
I think that potions should work, unless there's a specific in-game reason for them to malfunction.
Ok, so you don't like the fluff of Resonance and you don't like potion malfunctions. I present the Strain variant system, based on ideas from Vidmaster7 and Mathmuse:
(1) Instead of Resonance and max Resonance, you have Strain (starts at zero each day) and Tolerance (equal to unmodified Cha mod plus level).
(2) Whenever the Resonance system tells you to spend a Resonance, increment your Strain.
(3) If your Strain exceeds your Tolerance you take a penalty of... something fairly debilitating... say -2 to every stat per point of overstrain.
(4) The overstrain penalties can only be overcome or removed by getting a full night's sleep, and only once a day (much like casters regaining spells).
This represents the use of magical items putting a strain on your mind/spirit, not drawing power out of you. Fluff fixed. And potions never malfunction, but they might make you sick if you've been too busy.
I believe this will have at least 98% of the designer-desired effects of Resonance---I can't judge exactly what they want from overspending being probabilistic. If PF2 happens to include any abilities/items that screw with Resonance in odd ways, the mapping to Strain/Tolerance should be straightforward unless it touches overspending (which I find unlikely).
Your thoughts, GRuzom? Better than reverting to PF1?
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I should have been more precise - I do not like THE IDEA that, let's say Fighters, have an inner magic resource that determines how magic items interact with them. Playtesting won't change this - it's a totally subjective like/dislike thing.AFAIK this is the only specific objection you've registered to using the system; is it the only one you have? Do you object to the use of Charisma? To potions sometimes being useless? Anything else?I've got another; Goblins as being Charisma based, but that's easy to house rule in the final game, so no biggie. And I wil playtest it.
Whoops, I should have said "the Resonance system"---I'm not going to try to address all your PF2 concernes.
I WILL playtest Resonance and give feedback. Mechanicly it might work fine - and a lot of people may like it.I won't have though in MY game, so if it is too imbedded in the system to avoid, I'd probably stick with P1.
So far it looks like some of the proposed rules for P2 actually could solve some problems, we'll see.
I think that potions should work, unless there's a specific in-game reason for them to malfunction.
Ok, so you don't like the fluff of Resonance and you don't like potion malfunctions. I present the Strain variant system, based on ideas from Vidmaster7 and Mathmuse:
(1) Instead of Resonance and max Resonance, you have Strain (starts at zero each day) and Tolerance (equal to unmodified Cha mod plus level).
(2) Whenever the Resonance system tells you to spend a Resonance, increment your Strain.
(3) If your Strain exceeds your Tolerance you take a penalty of... something fairly debilitating... say -2 to every stat per point of overstrain.
(4) The overstrain penalties can only be overcome or removed by getting a full night's sleep, and only once a day (much like casters regaining spells).This represents the use of magical items putting a strain on your mind/spirit, not drawing power...
I think that it's very neat, but it only solves a fluff issue - potions aside - but it is basically the same as Resonance at its root. It will work differently for people with different stats.
I don't want ANY connection between the magic item's abillity to work and the PC's stats. It doesn't matter what it's called. I've a problem with what it IS.
I think that it's very neat, but it only solves a fluff issue - potions aside - but it is basically the same as Resonance at its root. It will work differently for people with different stats.
I don't want ANY connection between the magic item's abillity to work and the PC's stats. It doesn't matter what it's called. I've a problem with what it IS.
Ah, didn't realize that objection. Change "Tolerance is unmodified Cha mod plus level" to "Tolerance is three plus level." Better?
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Heh,no not really. The Item will STILL works differently for different characters - now it's just tied to thier level.
The item should just work - no limits tied to anything that stems from the owner.
Fuzzy-Wuzzi, this is not about fluff - I just really don't like the underlying idea. I think that what you're trying to do is great - making Resonance work for someone who doesn't like it. This is to your credit - and, thanks - it's apreciated!
Fuzzy-Wuzzi, this is not about fluff - I just really don't like the underlying idea. I think that what you're trying to do is great - making Resonance work for someone who doesn't like it. This is to your credit - and, thanks - it's apreciated!
You're quite welcome! Re-engineering a mechanic to meet specific objections while preserving most of the effect of the mechanic is an interesting challenge.
Heh,no not really. The Item will STILL works differently for different characters - now it's just tied to thier level.
The item should just work - no limits tied to anything that stems from the owner.
Hmm, you realize that this actually is the case with Strain/Tolerance? The item always works. Any item, any time. It's the wielder who gets negatively affected if they overstrain, not the item functionality. Admittedly different wielders have different thresholds. If that's a problem, we could always just set Tolerance to twelve, period.
But if you object to having any interaction between the item and the wielder at all... yeah, then I'm out; I don't think there's going to be a straightforward way to redefine each magic item to have its own limits (typically X/day) instead of relying on a "global" wielder limit. :-/
I don't think there's going to be a straightforward way to redefine each magic item to have its own limits (typically X/day) instead of relying on a "global" wielder limit. :-/
I don't think the issue is items that have x/day limits but those that normally just work at will: like a set of armor or basic staff use. Add to that some items STILL have x/day uses and it doesn't seem a good fit for a ""global" wielder limit" IMO.
Wrong thread ignore sorry.