How is Bewildering Koan going to work on Varklops if he can’t hear the noise? His heads are 200 feet above ground level, and that is assuming he decided to land instead of remain flying with his 1,200 ft range breath weapon. Pretty sure the Perception DC for him to hear the Bluff check is too high, and as such, that build doesn’t work against him.
The base DC to hear someone screaming questions at the top of their lungs is probably around -10. Varklops has a +34 Perception bonus, so he can hear the koan from 450 feet away even if he rolls a natural 1. Meanwhile, Ferdinand can fly up invisibly with a +63 Stealth bonus before distance modifiers - which, as previously mentioned, Varklops has no way of countering. Getting within 450 feet won't be a challenge.
Baalzebul, Varklops, Vorgozen, the Oliphaunt, Black Butterfly, and possibly Tawil at’Umr can all be incapacitated as a swift action by a decent Bewildering Koan build. A davana titan, meanwhile, just sits back and laughs.
It only says you lose your next action, not your next turn.
And sign language is not an official language in the game, even though I think it should exist so a GM can easily say "show me sign language in the book". I don't know if drow sign language exist in Golarion or not, but that is the closet you'll likely get to an official language that doesn't use sound.
It only says you lose your next action, not your next turn.
It was specifically clarified by Sean K Reynolds to be referring to the creature's next turn.
wraithstrike wrote:
And sign language is not an official language in the game, even though I think it should exist so a GM can easily say "show me sign language in the book".
They most certainly could, at which point I would show them Black Markets, page 24, where it explicitly lays out the rules for sign language and describes several different types, including Drow Sign Language (Sakvroth) and the sign language of Varisia. I could also point them to the list of drow bonus languages, as well as references to sign language in the rules for the monk vow of silence and the spells aphasia and shield speech. If all else failed, I would simply take the Gesture Expertise trait - or learn to speak Flail Snail.
The base DC to hear someone screaming questions at the top of their lungs is probably around -10. Varklops has a +34 Perception bonus, so he can hear the koan from 450 feet away even if he rolls a natural 1. Meanwhile, Ferdinand can fly up invisibly with a +63 Stealth bonus before distance modifiers - which, as previously mentioned, Varklops has no way of countering. Getting within 450 feet won't be a challenge.
You’re calculating this wrong.
It’s base 15. It is a whisper to him, for the same reason a fly flying a mere 10 feet away sounds like a whisper to us, but would sound normal to the fly. +5 for terrible conditions (he is a colossal flying “dragon”, and the terrible conditions says the noises of a dragon count). +5 for being distracted (he has a 3 in int. The moment he notices with sight someone to kill, he isn’t going to be focusing on anything but killing them). And +1/10ft away.
That’s a 55 dc to hear them in combat when 300 feet away, which means even on a 20 he fails, but he only has to roll a 1 to see them when 350 feet away. And before combat starts? Same 55 dc to hear them, but when 350 feet away. He can see them no matter what, but never hear them.
Let’s see someone who spent his entire build on bluff survive 3 breath weapons each dealing 40d6 damage.
It’s base 15. It is a whisper to him, for the same reason a fly flying a mere 10 feet away sounds like a whisper to us, but would sound normal to the fly.
Um... no. Not how it works. A whisper is a whisper and a scream is a scream - the listener's size doesn't affect the DC of their Perception checks, because the rules don't say it does.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
He can see them no matter what, but never hear them.
Also no. No matter what you think the Perception DC is, there's no way he sees the koaner before hearing them. Did you miss the part about the +63 Stealth bonus? About Varklops having no answer to invisibility or hide in plain sight? He couldn't see them if they were standing right next to him, let alone hundreds of feet away.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Let’s see someone who spent his entire build on bluff survive 3 breath weapons each dealing 40d6 damage.
I mean, he would, because he's also a monk/paladin/shadowdancer with evasion and a +35 Reflex save before any of his save-boosting abilities. But that's beside the point.
It only says you lose your next action, not your next turn.
It was specifically clarified by Sean K Reynolds to be referring to the creature's next turn.
wraithstrike wrote:
And sign language is not an official language in the game, even though I think it should exist so a GM can easily say "show me sign language in the book".
They most certainly could, at which point I would show them Black Markets, page 24, where it explicitly lays out the rules for sign language and describes several different types, including Drow Sign Language (Sakvroth) and the sign language of Varisia. I could also point them to the list of drow bonus languages, as well as references to sign language in the rules for the monk vow of silence and the spells aphasia and shield speech. If all else failed, I would simply take the Gesture Expertise trait - or learn to speak Flail Snail.
I'd also say that's fair. The monster would have to close it's eyes to prevent any sign languages from working so if it can survive it should try to escape unless it has some way to stop the sign language, maybe by paralyzing the "speaker".
Off-topic: I don't see why the +2 damage is an option when compared to "lose a turn". 99% of the time the action is the better option.
Weird slight tangent off the main tangent :P ... would the Koan's sign language used in conjunction with the feat be consider a 'vision based effect'?
And the difference between a loss of a turn and loss of an action is a HUGE difference. One reading is fairly weak the other ruling makes it quite deadly 1 vs 1 since it's a non magical, no save, no way to avoid other than to beat a Bluff specialists ability with Sense Motive.
@Reksew_Trebla Keep in mind not only does Avoron's Koan build above have Evasion but he is also 'only' 20th level character. Add more levels of abilities and the Reflex save (and Bluff) are likely even higher yet.
I'm wondering how long the Koan and BB are wondering around the void trying to find each other :P
Weird slight tangent off the main tangent :P ... would the Koan's sign language used in conjunction with the feat be consider a 'vision based effect'?
And the difference between a loss of a turn and loss of an action is a HUGE difference. One reading is fairly weak the other ruling makes it quite deadly 1 vs 1 since it's a non magical, no save, no way to avoid other than to beat a Bluff specialists ability with Sense Motive.
@Reksew_Trebla Keep in mind not only does Avoron's Koan build above have Evasion but he is also 'only' 20th level character. Add more levels of abilities and the Reflex save (and Bluff) are likely even higher yet.
I'm wondering how long the Koan and BB are wondering around the void trying to find each other :P
No, it's not a vision based effect, but considering the level of the PC's by the time they can force an encounter with any of these beings they can easily have a counter in an actual game, and Im not taking about using magic items the monster doesn't have access to.
For BB she has access to Mage's disjuction which should take out some of the magic items that are granting the high bluff bonus. She should at least be able to knock it down by 15.
There are other options. She has a +53 to stealth not counting the +20 from Silence between.
She's likely getting a surprise round.
Mr Koan is being tagged with steal breath, and even if he makes the 37 DC hes likely still going to lose initiative, which can be done most likely.
She cast time stop and gates in some other 28HD monster on her regular turn.
Now I don't know what the exact build is that Mr.Koan is made up, but it makes sense for her to know enough to know what to bring in to kill or give him a lot of trouble.
With all that aside, yes any monster in the book can be defeated if you plan a build just for that monster, but in most games you're not building for monster X. You're building something that is always useful, and Mr.Koan like any other build(monster or PC) will have weaknesses that can be exploited.
I just realized the koan wouldn't work on Baalzebul because he's "Immune to any effect that targets a specific number of creatures" and the koan only targets 1.
I just realized the koan wouldn't work on Baalzebul because he's "Immune to any effect that targets a specific number of creatures" and the koan only targets 1.
"Your question has been redirected to fly #467. It's a difficult question, so you may need to swing by us after your upcoming demise to find out what answer was decided."
So the Koan build is impressive, but technically speaking, each item would have to make a saving throw. Not sure if they get the gnome’s evasion on that though, as as far as I can see, it doesn’t say they do in the rules for items making saves.
But let’s say they do get evasion.
7 or less means they fail their save. Three breath weapons. So that means there is a 72.5375% chance one of them will land. For 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeoning damage, and yes, the 20d6 fire damage is full due to Varklops Devastating ability. Also because of same said ability, he ignores the first 20 points of hardness.
Pretty sure there is a good chance a lot of those items get broken right away.
So the Koan build is impressive, but technically speaking, each item would have to make a saving throw.
Only on a natural 1:
CRB, magic wrote:
Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.
If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
V does have an ability to deal more damage to objects, but nowhere in the breath weapon text does it call out an exception to the normal damage to gear. In other words, the items would take extra damage in the event they take damage, but them taking damage only occurs on a natural 1.
breath weapon description:
d20SRD, Varklops wrote:
Each of Varklops’s three heads can exhale a blast of searing fire and billowing ash in a 1,200-foot line once every 4 rounds. Each head’s breath weapon is a separate attack with its own 4-round recharge period. The kaiju can exhale one line of fire as a move action, two lines as a standard action, or three lines as a full-round action.
Each breath weapon deals 20d6 points of fire damage and 20d6 points of bludgeoning damage to all creatures in the area of effect as they are barraged with semisolid chunks of superheated rock and magma expelled in the torrent of fire; targets are also stunned for 1 round by the overwhelming force. With a successful DC 43 Reflex save, a creature takes half damage and negates the stun effect. If Varklops exhales more than one breath weapon, he can use them in different directions. If a creature is subjected to more than one breath weapon in a round in this manner, it takes damage from and must attempt separate saves against each breath weapon. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
So the Koan build is impressive, but technically speaking, each item would have to make a saving throw.
Only on a natural 1:
CRB, magic wrote:
Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack dealt.
If the selected item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.
V does have an ability to deal more damage to objects, but nowhere in the breath weapon text does it call out an exception to the normal damage to gear. In other words, the items would take extra damage in the event they take damage, but them taking damage only occurs on a natural 1.
** spoiler omitted **
...
That is only for spells. Varklops breath weapon isn’t a spell. Page 174 of the Core Rulebook says
Quote:
Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).
Magic items get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
I haven’t figured everything out on the Koan build, but there is a 1/6th chance of getting the effects of the Rage spell from drinking from the Flask of Endless Sake, which prevents the use of the Bluff skill for 5 rounds.
For BB she has access to Mage's disjuction which should take out some of the magic items that are granting the high bluff bonus. She should at least be able to knock it down by 15.
Not likely with Mr. Koan's +54 Will save. Also, not if she doesn't get a turn, which she won't.
wraithstrike wrote:
There are other options. She has a +53 to stealth not counting the +20 from Silence between.
...So? You don't need to see someone to ask them a question.
wraithstrike wrote:
She's likely getting a surprise round.
Nope, Mr. Koan is immune thanks to a dip in diviner wizard.
wraithstrike wrote:
Mr Koan is being tagged with steal breath, and even if he makes the 37 DC
Which he will, with his +41 Fort save. Also, not if she doesn't get a turn, which she won't.
wraithstrike wrote:
hes likely still going to lose initiative, which can be done most likely.
Not likely with his +47 initiative bonus.
Yquatuba wrote:
I just realized the koan wouldn't work on Baalzebul because he's "Immune to any effect that targets a specific number of creatures" and the koan only targets 1.
Nope, because specific beats general: "Baalzebul is immune to any physical spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures"
Bewildering Koan is definitely not a physical effect, so Baalzebul isn't immune.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
That is only for spells. Varklops breath weapon isn’t a spell.
Nope, it's for all "magical attacks." Varklops' breath weapon is a supernatural ability, which is definitely a magical attack.
But even if you ignore that text, his breath weapon still doesn't affect objects. It specifically says it damages "all creatures in the area of effect" - no mention of damaging anything else. So it's an area effect that specifically applies to creatures, just like frightful presence or bane.
Also, not if he doesn't get a turn, which he won't.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
I haven’t figured everything out on the Koan build, but there is a 1/6th chance of getting the effects of the Rage spell from drinking from the Flask of Endless Sake, which prevents the use of the Bluff skill for 5 rounds.
1) It says "a character can." It's optional.
2) It's once per day, so he'd just use it up first thing in the morning anyway.
Also, not if he doesn't get a turn, which he won't.
We’ve been over this. Varklops fails his perception check no matter what when in combat flying 300 ft above the enemy, but sees them no matter what when up to 350 ft flying above the enemy. And out of combat, he fails to hear them no matter what when 350 ft flying above them, so he can’t hear the bluff to be affected by it, but can see the target saying stuff to him. Since Varklops is chaotic evil, and his description says he loves to destroy, he will see the gnome by taking 10 on perception when he is 450 ft away, blast the creature trying to get his attention with three breath weapons, landing one of them 72.5375% of the time, and deal 20d6 fire and 20d6 bludgeoning, which results in an average damage of 140. Which means in 4 rounds he can do so again, and kill the gnome, without the gnome being able to do anything.
By the way, there is a 20.2125% chance that two breath weapons will land on turn one, which will kill the gnome, and a 52.61688906249999% chance he’ll land at least one on turn 1 and turn 5, assuming he doesn’t use his fire monsoon by flying down 50 feet, moving 50 feet (this is the part that’ll hit the gnome) and flying back up 50 feet, and deal an average of 14 damage each round, for an average of 42 extra damage before the second wave of breath weapons. And that is assuming the gnome doesn’t roll a 7 or lower on the save, which has a 35% chance of happening, which does 70 average damage.
Point being, the gnome is dying, and there isn’t anything he can do about it.
With all that aside, yes any monster in the book can be defeated if you plan a build just for that monster, but in most games you're not building for monster X. You're building something that is always useful, and Mr.Koan like any other build(monster or PC) will have weaknesses that can be exploited.
You are aware that Mr. Koan was built three years ago on a whim for an entirely different set of foes, correct? Just checking.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
We’ve been over this.
We have.
Please tell me, in nineteen words or less, how Varklops can see a flying invisible gnome with a +63 Stealth bonus.
With all that aside, yes any monster in the book can be defeated if you plan a build just for that monster, but in most games you're not building for monster X. You're building something that is always useful, and Mr.Koan like any other build(monster or PC) will have weaknesses that can be exploited.
You are aware that Mr. Koan was built three years ago on a whim for an entirely different set of foes, correct? Just checking.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
We’ve been over this.
We have.
Please tell me, in nineteen words or less, how Varklops can see a flying invisible gnome with a +63 Stealth bonus.
1: What person is flying and invisible and stealthing when in a city, or even out in the regular wild?
2: I don’t see him having the ability to turn invisible or fly. Where is it on the character sheet?
That is only for spells. Varklops breath weapon isn’t a spell. Page 174 of the Core Rulebook says
Generally speaking SU's follow the same rules for spells.
Otherwise things such as line of effect would not apply, and you could jack people up through walls since there is the magic rules call out spells, but not magic in general.
Quote:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
It would also mean a dragon's breath or any AoE that was an SU would be a lot more dangerous, not only because it could ignore walls, but because they could destroy an entire party's magical items with one standard action.
I haven't seen a build so I don't know how accurate your stats are.
At least one of your responses such as not needing to see the BB to counter her is forgetting that he'd need to know she was there.
I guess in theory he could just walk and do sign language nonstop, but if you do something like that the GM is going to use some loophole to get around your entire build.
With all that aside, yes any monster in the book can be defeated if you plan a build just for that monster, but in most games you're not building for monster X. You're building something that is always useful, and Mr.Koan like any other build(monster or PC) will have weaknesses that can be exploited.
You are aware that Mr. Koan was built three years ago on a whim for an entirely different set of foes, correct? Just checking.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
We’ve been over this.
We have.
Please tell me, in nineteen words or less, how Varklops can see a flying invisible gnome with a +63 Stealth bonus.
Point 1 kinds proves my point. Most game builds aren't superbuilds, and two and my point about every build having a weakness still stands.
You claim this build is 3 years old, but I haven't seen a link. If I missed it and you posted in this thread just tell me when the link was posted.
Edit: I found the link to the build. Adding age categories is not going to be allowed in most games. You've likely taken other liberties with the rules if you're assuming that you'll always be flying, invisible, and stealthing.
Since the build only has a +38 perception all it takes is hit and run tactics, and with so many magic items failing saves is going to happen if Mage's Disjunction is used. Gating in something that has access to an antimagic field is going to greatly reduce Mr.Koan's stats also.
With that being said the build is powerful, and without planning a GM is not going to kill him easily. Yes, I'm aware the Mr.Koan will have party members, but he will likely be the one that has to die first. Now if he is teamed up with other superbuilds the GM might as well call the game or bring in additional help, a lot of additional help.
PS: I only thought about this for about 30 seconds. If I actually sat down and wanted Mr.Koan to die, which take me pouring over several monsters to see who to Gate in that would take a lot longer.
I'd like to note that Mr. Koan can probably see a giant flying Monster, so its not absurd to think the random gnome is going to be able to set up combat.
But the topic of the Thread is the Hardest official monster, not "theorycrafting Koan Builds". Lets keep on topic.
1: What person is flying and invisible and stealthing when in a city, or even out in the regular wild?
Um... maybe a level 20 gnome with an interest in fighting a CR 30 three-headed dragon?
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
2: I don’t see him having the ability to turn invisible or fly. Where is it on the character sheet?
Broom of flying, and invisibility from bard spellcasting. He also has hide in plain sight.
wraithstrike wrote:
You claim this build is 3 years old, but I haven't seen a link. If I missed it and you posted in this thread just tell me when the link was posted.
I posted it here. Then I posted another use of it here. Then I posted the first link again in my response to you here. In case you still can't find it, just look here and here.
wraithstrike wrote:
my point about every build having a weakness still stands
Well, yeah, of course he has weaknesses. Really obscure weaknesses like "facing more than one enemy at once."
It's just that none of those weaknesses are "a big bad monster that can do a bunch of scary things on its turn," because if they can't get a surprise round or win initiative or beat a DC 100 Sense Motive check, odds are they're not going to be getting a turn in the first place.
ShroudedInLight wrote:
But the topic of the Thread is the Hardest official monster, not "theorycrafting Koan Builds". Lets keep on topic.
I couldn't agree more. I've been trying to keep my responses spoilered in the hope that things would die down, but it doesn't seem very successful.
Anyway, my original goal was just to demonstrate the value of broadly applicable defenses against niche forms of attack. With that in mind, does anyone see a glaring weakness in the davana titan? Any way to neutralize them other than brute forcing it with a dozen encounter-ending effects? Because that alone makes me see them as a contender for the hardest monster to defeat, especially if they get a davana pillar variant ability.
But the topic of the Thread is the Hardest official monster, not "theorycrafting Koan Builds". Lets keep on topic.
I couldn't agree more. I've been trying to keep my responses spoilered in the hope that things would die down, but it doesn't seem...
Davana's still have nothing to get past the old greater invis+mind blank chestnut so in theory they go down to any person with a high impact ranged attack(s). Plus they don't have any rapid bug out abilities besides walking which is problematic for getting away from the local buffed archer thing.
Still rather new to Mythic abilities (vs 3.0/3.5 Epic) but at first pass I'd say main weakness if you could call it that is lack of elemental resistances, no ability damage or drain resistance/immunities and a relatively modest Touch AC. Namely, while it falls essentially into 'brute' force category, my Loremaster would probably try a combo of Enervation and Acid Arrow. But no, no huge glaring holes of obvious weakness immediately jump out. He just looks really hard to kill until you wear down his ability to ignore and heal damage. But my Loremaster once pretty much turned an Epic Mind Flayer to a gooey mess by spending several rounds of double stacking Acid Arrows on him. Iron Resistance makes him very durable vs an alpha strike that most parties will likely try and launch.
The main way the Titan is going to deal with an Archer is probably to unload on him while using Iron Resilience to neutralize the incoming damage.
As Tarik points out no particular way to evade an encounter. No unusual movement abilities, he's a ground pounder. He might use his Greater Planar Ally to help deal with these issues.
Does second save do what I think it does (wasn't having much luck finding the ability)?
Davana's still have nothing to get past the old greater invis+mind blank chestnut so in theory they go down to any person with a high impact ranged attack(s). Plus they don't have any rapid bug out abilities besides walking which is problematic for getting away from the local buffed archer thing.
Both valid points. Though with an at-will greater dispel magic it can use twice per round, that greater invisibility and mind blank probably won't stay up for very long. And if it does need to run, it does so through the air at 640 ft./round, which might be a bit tricky to keep up with while full-attacking.
Kayerloth wrote:
no ability damage or drain resistance/immunities
Note that it can deal with ability damage fairly easily with a quickened heal.
Kayerloth wrote:
my Loremaster would probably try a combo of Enervation and Acid Arrow
Enervation does still have to deal with SR 39 - manageable, but worth taking into account.
Kayerloth wrote:
No unusual movement abilities, he's a ground pounder.
Well, it does have constant air walk. So more of an air pounder.
Kayerloth wrote:
Does second save do what I think it does (wasn't having much luck finding the ability)?
It's a mythic monster ability: whenever it fails a save against an ongoing effect it gets another one at the start of its next turn.
Finally, keep in mind that any strategy based on wearing it down becomes literally ten times more difficult if you're dealing with a davana pillar with the Akashic Guru ability, because every time you think you've killed it it comes back at full hp, with no negative levels and all its heals.
Wouldn't there only be one Davana Akashic Pillar? As he/she/it would be the Pillar of the Akashic record.
I believe the Davana Akashic Pillar's ability being referenced is that anytime it dies, it simply pulls a past copy of itself from the Akashik Record, which could theoretically be 1 minute younger than the version the group initially encountered. I don't know off hand how often it can do this, but if it's indefinitely, then I think we have a winner.
1: It isn’t realistic. Like who multiclasses that much without having meta knowledge of how useful it would be mechanically. Maybe if the gnome had a Harrow Deck of Many Things, and got the wishing card, which says it can do things even a wish spell couldn’t, and he wished to understand the world in game mechanics, I could see him taking this course of action, but otherwise, like, who does that?
2: I’m not sure how you plan on catching a 150 ft fly speed with a 40 ft fly speed. Even if Varklops has no way of knowing about the gnome, he isn’t just going to stay in one place. More destruction to be had if he moves about, by preventing any surviving archers from landing hits on him. I assume even with a 3 in Int, he would come to this conclusion, because he has been doing this for hundreds if not thousands of years.
3: I really don’t want to add up all the magic items’ cost to see if the build is legal. I realize you have Craft Wonderous Item, but the crafting rules recommend that players shouldn’t be able to go above 1.5x their normal wealth by doing so, so like, I’d have to spend time figuring that out.
4: I’d have to figure out how old your character should be at minimum by calculating the minimum crafting time for all the crafted items, and if this puts you past the maximum age for a gnome, that would be a problem.
So yeah, I’m done with this. Besides, it was off topic. Any really heavily specialized build can take down stronger creatures. For instance, a character level 32 character, Mobile Fighter 20/Monk of the Four Winds 12, can take down most enemies of similar CR or higher, by getting 3 full-attack actions and one move action in one turn.
Okay maybe that was a bad example, but you get my point, right?
Anyways, I’m done with this. Some other creatures have been presented that are probably better than Varklops, so I have no reason to stick around.
I'm... sorry? Sorry that creatures can meet each other, that crafting feats are powerful, that multiclassing... exists? I'm not quite sure what my gnome did to upset you so much, but I sincerely apologize for causing you undue distress.
Cuup wrote:
I believe the Davana Akashic Pillar's ability being referenced is that anytime it dies, it simply pulls a past copy of itself from the Akashik Record, which could theoretically be 1 minute younger than the version the group initially encountered. I don't know off hand how often it can do this, but if it's indefinitely, then I think we have a winner.
It's limited by mythic power, which they have at least ten of. It looks like that could still be bypassed by effects that kill them all at once - they can reset automatically, but if they do it before dying the thing that killed them will still take effect afterward, and if they wait until after they die it's too late. But of course, then you run into iron resilience.
You might be able to cut those defenses off with an antimagic field, since while the abilities themselves are extraordinary, the mythic power that fuels them is supernatural. Except it looks like iron resilience can block antimagic itself, since it works on area attacks and things that don't allow saves.
A davana pillar's defenses are really, really thorough.
That makes sense, since they hold the multiverse together. Would be a little easy for the forces of chaos to destroy the natural order if Danvana Titans could fall easily.
Are there other contenders for this title? I know there are other CR20+ monsters out there that are pretty tough.
Indeed those defenses are very strong and partly why I said my Loremaster's attack was essentially brute force. He and his companions would try to force him to burn through his Mythic power and Heals which is a very brute force approach to that defense. Worst case we have to have the resources to defeat a Pillar 10? times (He uses a point of mythic power with each rebirth from what I can see for the Akashic version that does not get restored with the rebirth).
Yes he has Air Walk so at least he can get off the ground (unlike for one famous example, a Tarrasque) but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on just outrunning/evading my foes with a base 90ft flying movement particularly since it could be shut down, albeit temporarily, by Dispel or worse Antimagic as well as slowed or impeded by wind natural or otherwise. Were you thinking of Wind Walk perhaps as I'm not sure how you came up with 640ft movement
It is slightly vague to me whether the Davana can expend muliple mythic points to ignore additional attacks beyond the first with Iron Resilience, along with the one free no effect it gets for just having Iron Resilience.
Right now for me its rather up in the air ... the Davana has the nod for sheer durability once battle has begun. BB is potent with her ability to make the fight occur at the time and place of her choosing or to evade it.
So, I've been looking up some "monsters" and I came across some from the Mythic Realms book.
First there is Old-Mage Jatembe who is quite dangerous for an Evil party to encounter as he is an Archmage. The man can learn additional spells, including unique spells, as well as permanent minkblank and shapechange. The man can also quickly prepare addition spells should he require them, as he leaves a spell slot open. As a level 20 Wizard, Old-Mage Jatembe is quite dangerous.
Second there is Arazni who is another 20th level Wizard who is also a Lich making her immune to a number of spells. She is, however, also a Marshal who can inspire her minions. She also has a pair of minor artifacts that enhance her powers.
Third, there is The Whispering Tyrant who can raise any number of HD as undead, effectively giving him an infinite army of undead for the players to cut through. Also, another lich who is immune to a huge selection of powers.
Lastly, there is of course the most powerful of casters Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga is not only absurdly powerful as a 20th level Witch with 10 levels of Archmage. She also comes with her Dancing Hut, a hidden death, and her three Riders.
Sure, none of these casters are quite as scary as some of the previous monsters BUT they are all 20th level arcane casters making them quite dangerous on their own. Additionally, the later three all come with some scary minions too upping their effective challenge rating. These spellcasters can alter their spell lay outs against different opponents assuming they can successfully scry them. This makes them quite effective.
Well folks, any ideas at handling these 4 powerful encounters?
So, I've been looking up some "monsters" and I came across some from the Mythic Realms book.
First there is Old-Mage Jatembe who is quite dangerous for an Evil party to encounter as he is an Archmage. The man can learn additional spells, including unique spells, as well as permanent minkblank and shapechange. The man can also quickly prepare addition spells should he require them, as he leaves a spell slot open. As a level 20 Wizard, Old-Mage Jatembe is quite dangerous.
Second there is Arazni who is another 20th level Wizard who is also a Lich making her immune to a number of spells. She is, however, also a Marshal who can inspire her minions. She also has a pair of minor artifacts that enhance her powers.
Third, there is The Whispering Tyrant who can raise any number of HD as undead, effectively giving him an infinite army of undead for the players to cut through. Also, another lich who is immune to a huge selection of powers.
Lastly, there is of course the most powerful of casters Baba Yaga. Baba Yaga is not only absurdly powerful as a 20th level Witch with 10 levels of Archmage. She also comes with her Dancing Hut, a hidden death, and her three Riders.
Sure, none of these casters are quite as scary as some of the previous monsters BUT they are all 20th level arcane casters making them quite dangerous on their own. Additionally, the later three all come with some scary minions too upping their effective challenge rating. These spellcasters can alter their spell lay outs against different opponents assuming they can successfully scry them. This makes them quite effective.
Well folks, any ideas at handling these 4...
Well, I hate to bring in such a cheese build, but it works in a lot of situations with sentients... Power of suggestion I don't see anything that makes the lich immune to this honestly stupidly good flat DC to convince it that whatever you're holding in your hand is it's phylactery. From there, it's just someone with a good negotiation skill to have the lich and the party to go on their separate ways. Since the deception only lasts for a minute after you leave, it would be best to be somewhere far, far away when that wears off.
From what I know about Baba Yaga, (not much) she is often willing to strike some sort of deal. These are all intelligent beings, who will hopefully listen to reason (seems unlikely that they would have gotten so powerful if they didn't negotiate sometimes) and can be outwitted and then fled from.
Not exactly what I would call a flawless strategy, and you didn't defeat them in a technical sense, but it should be worth enough experience to start investing in some class features that will get you closer to making your saves against spells, or even immunity to magic.
Well yes technically speaking you could try to reason with them... but well... as when you trade with a devil they may try to twist what you said or the term of the agreement
Ask Kostchtchie, he's immortal as he asked Baba Yaga, and a powerful demon lord on top of that, but he wasn't expecting things to turn this way
I'm not sure what convincing a lich you have his phylactery would actually do in most practical situations? You don't normally cross paths with such an enemy just by happenstance, if you're fighting a lich it's because the lich is working to unleash some great and terrible evil upon the world (it's a lich, they're ALWAYS trying to unleash some great and terrible evil upon the world). Once he gets his phylactery back he will... just continue doing what he's doing, except now he's also mildly annoyed at you and himself for being so easily tricked.
I would probably also drop a huge modifier on the DC for the Power of Suggestion when claiming it was their phylactery. You might chip away at some of that DC by knowing the size, color, etc.. but a Lich is extremely familiar with the location and appearance of their phylactery and typically gone to extreme lengths to shield/hide it. I've seen more than a couple of Phylacteries over the years that you couldn't even begin to hold it in ones hand even if you tried. However, I'll grant those were in pre-Paizo published adventures, Nightmare Keep and Return to the Tomb of Horrors as examples, and Acererak is, of course, a Demilich, not a Lich.
And yes I'd park that idea in the more like surviving the encounter than winning/defeating category.
I was gonna come into this thread with a high-CR construct and make a pun, but it turns out very few creatures in the upper CR range have hardness.
Bender is great wrote:
Well, I hate to bring in such a cheese build, but it works in a lot of situations with sentients... Power of suggestion I don't see anything that makes the lich immune to this honestly stupidly good flat DC to convince it that whatever you're holding in your hand is it's phylactery. From there, it's just someone with a good negotiation skill to have the lich and the party to go on their separate ways. Since the deception only lasts for a minute after you leave, it would be best to be somewhere far, far away when that wears off.
Eh, more likely the lich will just try to murder you and make a new phylactery in my experience. They tend to be arrogant spellcasters anyway, and seeing that someone was able to get past all of the protections on a phylactery would mean they couldn't be allowed to survive because they might steal it again later.
Now, just using diplomacy without the phylactery hostage situation might still work if you can get them to listen to you for a handful of minutes, which the old invisibility mindblank combo mixed with a dash of skinsend and a smattering of overland flight could probably drum up.
Kayerloth wrote:
I've seen more than a couple of Phylacteries over the years that you couldn't even begin to hold it in ones hand even if you tried. However, I'll grant those were in pre-Paizo published adventures, Nightmare Keep and Return to the Tomb of Horrors as examples, and Acererak is, of course, a Demilich, not a Lich.
Wrath of the Righteous Spoiler:
IIRC, a lich runelord in the 5th book of the campaign has a phylactery that is basically a big magic pool in his personal lab, so there is at least one paizo published example of phylacteries that one cannot hold.
I'm not sure I'd want to rely on just outrunning/evading my foes with a base 90ft flying movement particularly since it could be shut down, albeit temporarily, by Dispel or worse Antimagic
Even setting aside the fact that in an emergency iron resilience can negate that sort of attack, I still don't see that as a problem. Air walk gives you rounds of free feather falling if dispelled, so the davana's got plenty of time to resume the air walk as a swift action at the start of its next turn.
As for shutting down in antimagic, that's not a bug, it's a feature. If you catch a floating davana titan in an antimagic field it will automatically fall until it leaves the area, bringing its magical defenses back immediately so you don't get a chance to attack while it's vulnerable.
Kayerloth wrote:
Were you thinking of Wind Walk perhaps as I'm not sure how you came up with 640ft movement
Sorry, not 640 ft./round, 720.
Base speed of 90 ft., running at four times base speed, with dual initiative letting it run twice per round.
I'm not sure I'd want to rely on just outrunning/evading my foes with a base 90ft flying movement particularly since it could be shut down, albeit temporarily, by Dispel or worse Antimagic
Even setting aside the fact that in an emergency iron resilience can negate that sort of attack, I still don't see that as a problem. Air walk gives you rounds of free feather falling if dispelled, so the davana's got plenty of time to resume the air walk as a swift action at the start of its next turn.
As for shutting down in antimagic, that's not a bug, it's a feature. If you catch a floating davana titan in an antimagic field it will automatically fall until it leaves the area, bringing its magical defenses back immediately so you don't get a chance to attack while it's vulnerable.
Kayerloth wrote:
Were you thinking of Wind Walk perhaps as I'm not sure how you came up with 640ft movement
Sorry, not 640 ft./round, 720.
Base speed of 90 ft., running at four times base speed, with dual initiative letting it run twice per round.
Ah the Dual Initiative ... that makes it a little more plausible (running away that is). Part of the problem there for me is what ever your trying to evade/get away from can usually Run as well. And since it's a Mystic Ability one or more PCs might also have it, and it would, I suspect, be a very sought after Mystic Power as having 2 Full rounds is a rather obviously potent ability. Relying on simply out running your foe tends to be problematic unless you are a whole lot faster. Run also has some significant drawbacks. It can only be done in a straight line (so the terrain might be an issue) and you are denied you Dex to AC as well. It's going to deny our Titan 13 points (+12 dex, +1 dodge) of AC when used and Ranged Touch Attacks are going to get painful.
On the flip side a 90ft base speed is pretty darn good it'll be hard for the pursuit to keep up the attacks and spells while keeping pace at a Run.
As for Air Walk vs antimagic and dispel. Yes both can be over come relatively easily but ... you are attempting to retreat/flee Run away. He might already be at the point where using another Mystic Point is severely problematic (or why is he running?) Even if it's a no action action it still slows his overall movement. YMMV.
Tome of Horrors Complete has Orcus and a few other devils that run up to CR 35, I believe.
They also hav lucifer who is CR 39, but he turns out to be just a big pile of numbers - he can be killed easily with just two time stops and some greater shadows
When I saw this thread I thought of three things, Baba Yaga, Danava Pillars and the black butterfly. Seems like you've gone over the reasons in pretty good details just one thing sticks out as missed.
Baba Yaga has the ability Queen of witches. Which means she has all the wizard list and can just get any cleric spells she wants as divine spells.
So if you accept that in pathfinder there is a spell for almost every situation then you can also accept that she will have the spell for almost every situation
Of the actual statted CR30 creatures I’d say probably Nocticula is the most powerful.
Old-Mage Jatembe, Arazni, The Whispering Tyrant and Baba Yaga.
Ahh nuts, full caster/'Schrodinger wizard' thread death ensues ... but
I'd say Baba Yaga ain't called the Queen of Witches for nothing.
After these last few posts I'm looking at 4 contenders for me personally:
Black Butterfly, Davana Pillar, Baba Yaga and Nocticula. My Epic (3.5) Loremaster and his most common companions would have had a very rough time with any of them even at the point where we pretty much left off playing them around level 30. Nocticula in particular generates some very potent DCs vs Fort and Will that would be problematic.
