Class advice for a player who wants to do a bit of everything.


Advice


We have a political intrigue sort of game coming up, and 3 of the 4 players have roughly settled into what they want to play at this point (a skill-heavy rogue, an occultist, and a shifter).

Player 4 is stuck, and we've all tossed around ideas, but gotten nowhere.

He says he thinks we need more healing capabilities (particularly at low, "pre-CLW-wand" levels) and wants to be able to do some of that. He'd also like to be able to have a presence in combat, and to have some social skills.

We pretty much all think the best options for what he wants are witch and oracle, but he hates witches and doesn't want to play a class he doesn't have fun with (understandable), and is playing an oracle in the campaign we're currently doing, and doesn't want to play another one right away. His own favourite class is the cleric, but he's been struggling with hitting all three of his requirements (particularly getting good skills) at once.

Any advice we might give him? Cleric builds? Unconventional oracles? Other options?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd go for bard, preferably arcane duelist or archeologist bard, both have fair combat ability, great social skills, and can cast cure light wounds. Skald is also an option, for better combat.


If he wants to stick with cleric and have decent skills I suggest either herald caller or cardinal. Herald caller gets 4+Int skill points, Cardinal 6+Int but Cardinal does give up a lot. I would go the heavy wisdom route for extra spellcasting and better DC's along with the Empathic Diplomat trait to use Wisdom for Diplomacy.


If going bard then I might consider Lore Oracle 1/Bard for the rest. Get Charisma to knowledge skills, AC and reflex. Take noble scion and get it for initiative as well. Go thundercaller bard for a decent small aoe damage effect with the potential to stun enemies as well.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Elf Bard and can take Breadth of Knowledge, able to make any knowledge check.


I have to agree that a bard fits what he is looking for. The archaeologist bard would be a good fit for the campaign except it will probably overshadow the skill heavy rouge. If the rouge is not an unchained rouge there is literally nothing they would be able to do that the archeologist bard could not do better. Even with the unchained rouge the archeologist will likely do a better job at most things that the rouge normally does.

Another option would be an inquisitor.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As for the bard/rogue overlap, they could work together picking skills, so they don't overshadow each other. Bard takes Bluff and Diplomacy, as the face, rogue takes Intimidate as the muscle, and Sense Motive, and you just added in the role-play that the bard actually believes his own stories, while the rogue grounds him in reality.


Inquisitor


Though not available until level 2, an Alchemist with the Healing Bomb discovery seems like a great fit - and ensures the most *bang* for your buck with every cure potion the party finds or crafts. The chirurgeon archetype can work particularly well if he wants to focus in harder on the healing role.


With any other archetype besides the archeologist working with a rogue would not be a problem. But an archeologist is pretty much designed to be a replacement for the rogue. Archeologist luck (with fates favored) combined with heroism gives the archeologist bard a huge bonus on all skills. Put a single point in a skill to activate the class bonus and the archeologist can become better at almost anything than just about anyone else. Another bard archetype would be a much better idea. Also keep in mind that an archeologist bard actually has no reason to take any kind of perform skill, so often don’t.

Looking over the fact that the player’s favorite class is cleric is another thing in favor of the inquisitor. Since many of the inquisitor spells are on the cleric spell list he will at have less of a learning curve. The inquisitor is also closer to the cleric from a roleplaying aspect, so may be something the player may enjoy more.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And the judgements are a good way to improve combat skill, yeah, I see what you're getting at.


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If you're not into archaeologist I have to reinforce whoever suggested herald Caller or Cardinal.

Healing, combat competence and skilliness are all possible with the same character. Also by level 7 he could have quick channel and battle cry for the following turn:

Move action: Heal people with channel
Swift action: Battle cry to buff allies
Standard action: whack a guy over the head, shoot an arrow or cast a spell


The Medium can do a bit of everything. They might not be vary good when the do the things but the option is there.

Silver Crusade

I think my Hell's Rebels character does what your player is looking for:

Dawnflower Dervish Bard:
Lubella Heathertoes
Female halfling bard (dawnflower dervish) 2 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic 34)
NG Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +4; Senses Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +1 size)
hp 22 (2d8+9)
Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +4; +4 vs. bardic performance, language-dependent, and sonic, +2 vs. fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee dagger +1 (1d3-1/19-20) or
. . scimitar +6 (1d4+4/18-20)
Ranged light crossbow +6 (1d6/19-20) or
. . sling +6 (1d3-1)
Special Attacks bardic performance 9 rounds/day (countersong, distraction, fascinate [DC 14], inspire courage +1), battle dance: inspire courage
Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) Spells Known (CL 2nd; concentration +5)
. . 1st (3/day)—cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, grease
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16
Base Atk +1; CMB -1; CMD 13
Feats Dervish Dance[ISWG], Toughness
Traits natural born leader, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +1, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +7, Escape Artist +6, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Linguistics +5, Perception +6, Perform (sing) +8, Profession (merchant) +3, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Halfling, Kelish, Varisian
SQ battle dance, versatile performance (sing)
Combat Gear cold iron crossbow bolts (10), scroll of undetectable alignment; Other Gear chain shirt, dagger, light crossbow, scimitar, sling, sling bullets (6), sling bullets (4), cloak of resistance +1, figurine (silver raven), bedroll, blanket[APG], charcoal stick (worth 0.5 gp) (2), flint and steel, masterwork backpack[APG], paper, rope lengths (worth 1 gp), sack, sewing needle, thread (50 ft.), trade goods (worth 10 gp, 5 lb), trail rations, waterskin, wooden holy symbol of Sarenrae, 56 gp, 3 sp, 9 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bardic Performance (standard action, 9 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Battle Dance (move action) A Dawnflower dervish is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the Dawnflower dervish’s performances grant double their normal bonuses, but th
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Fearless +2 bonus to save vs. fear (stacks with halfling luck).
Versatile Performance (Singing) +8 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Sing skill for Bluff or Sense Motive checks

Note: Background Skill optional rules used. Shown at 2nd lvl to give an idea of Versatile Performance. Equipment is mid 2nd lvl (actual play).


born_of_fire wrote:
Inquisitor

More specifically, and Inquisitor with the Conversion inquisition.

They get heal spells, solo tactics makes them great flanking buddies for the rogue, and the Conversion inquisition lets them swap CHA for WIS on bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate.


I'd suggest the Shaman class. It is very versatile, can clip into a number of different roles, and can change their wandering spirit each day to further cement what kind of role they want to play.


I second the Shaman. They get good healing spells (although not spontaneous), cool utility in their Hexes, can be built in different ways, borrow some great spells from Arcane and Divine lists, and they get decent skills. And once you get a Wandering Spirit, you can diversify your portfolio daily. As-is, the Shaman is a great buffer and debuffer, but with certain spirits he can be great at whatever you want.

I'm not sure why the player dislikes Witches, so this might be a difficult sell, but I feel the Shaman is much more versatile than that. The fact that you can wear armour helps a lot, and the bigger hit die is also a plus. The only downside is that you don't get a Hex at level 1, that's an especially sucky level to be at.


A second Occultist could work.
Conjuration for healing and a summon
Transmutation (and Abjuration at level 2) for fighting. Slap on a polearm and they have a handful of good combat options.
And occultist gets plenty of skills


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Quote:
He says he thinks we need more healing capabilities (particularly at low, "pre-CLW-wand" levels) and wants to be able to do some of that. He'd also like to be able to have a presence in combat, and to have some social skills. ... His own favourite class is the cleric, but he's been struggling with hitting all three of his requirements (particularly getting good skills) at once.

Try multiclassing cleric and rogue in a finesse build -- it works surprisingly well as long as your frame of mind isn't stuck in needing nine levels of casting. He'll have skill points for days, and no weak spots in his saving throws.


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Slim Jim wrote:
Quote:
He says he thinks we need more healing capabilities (particularly at low, "pre-CLW-wand" levels) and wants to be able to do some of that. He'd also like to be able to have a presence in combat, and to have some social skills. ... His own favourite class is the cleric, but he's been struggling with hitting all three of his requirements (particularly getting good skills) at once.
Try multiclassing cleric and rogue in a finesse build -- it works surprisingly well as long as your frame of mind isn't stuck in needing nine levels of casting. He'll have skill points for days, and no weak spots in his saving throws.

Are you sure this actually works?! Sounds interesting but totally bizarre.

Also I feel like the sanctified Slayer (with or without rogue vmc) is such a good mix of Divine caster and sneaky character that it would Obsolete any sort of cleric rogue multiclass. Maybe I'm wrong.


Zolanoteph wrote:

Are you sure this actually works?! Sounds interesting but totally bizarre.

Also I feel like the sanctified Slayer (with or without rogue vmc) is such a good mix of Divine caster and sneaky character that it would Obsolete any sort of cleric rogue multiclass. Maybe I'm wrong.

Actually, yes. These sort of builds are not optimized and are just around the level of game play the core rules (and adventure paths) are built around. It is the level of gameplay (optimization floor) that you play at that determines whether or not something is 'good' or not.

However, I'd gravitate more towards the 'premade' class mixes, whether or not they are official hybrid classes or not.


Bard, Skald, Shaman (Wandering Spirit so goood), Medium, Inquisitor, Alchemist (Healing Bombs and Infusion), Investigator (Infusion) or a Water/Aether Kineticist.

Alchemist or Inquisitor is probably best, but Shaman/Medium/Kineticist would also be fun.


Maybe summoner? They are a bit light on healing, but at early levels they get infernal healing which is a great after fight patch up. They can also have a variety of attack methoods, (If they don't like having a summoned creature, then they can be a synthisist instead) get some decent utility spells, and with a trait or two, can be excellent faces for the party. Not optimal, but definitely an option.


That or a Dandy ranger? Won't have magical healing, but they can get mundane heals, and it's delightfully flavorful.


Sorcerer. Pick up Infernal (Celestial) Healing, Cha is primary stat so social skills are the automatic forte of this class. Then throw in some blaster spells and you've covered all of his bases. This won't be a long term healer but that isn't what the player is looking for, is it?


Meirril wrote:

Sorcerer. Pick up Infernal (Celestial) Healing, Cha is primary stat so social skills are the automatic forte of this class. Then throw in some blaster spells and you've covered all of his bases. This won't be a long term healer but that isn't what the player is looking for, is it?

I know of Infernal Healing.

What's Infernal (Celestial) Healing?


LittleMissNaga wrote:
Meirril wrote:

Sorcerer. Pick up Infernal (Celestial) Healing, Cha is primary stat so social skills are the automatic forte of this class. Then throw in some blaster spells and you've covered all of his bases. This won't be a long term healer but that isn't what the player is looking for, is it?

I know of Infernal Healing.

What's Infernal (Celestial) Healing?

Celestial Healing is the <Good> version of Infernal Healing. Though looking at the spell...Celestial Healing is in every way inferior.


Zolanoteph wrote:


Are you sure this actually works?! Sounds interesting but totally bizarre.

Also I feel like the sanctified Slayer (with or without rogue vmc) is such a good mix of Divine caster and sneaky character that it would Obsolete any sort of cleric rogue multiclass. Maybe I'm wrong.

In 3rd edition d&d there was a prestige class that mixed these two, I want to say it was in the halfling splat book but I'm not sure. I believe it gave you 4 levels of sneak attack and 7-8 caster levels over 10 levels plus other things, making it better then just multiclassing cleric/rogue.

I looked around in pathfinder and grey warden was the closest equivalent I could find but the sneak attack progression seems like almost an after thought. Technically arcane trickster would let you advance a divine casting class, but I didn't see any way around the "able to cast 2nd level arcane spells" meaning you'd have to take a 3 level dip just to qualify for the class which doesn't seem worth it in the grand scheme of things.


LordKailas wrote:
Zolanoteph wrote:


Are you sure this actually works?! Sounds interesting but totally bizarre.

Also I feel like the sanctified Slayer (with or without rogue vmc) is such a good mix of Divine caster and sneaky character that it would Obsolete any sort of cleric rogue multiclass. Maybe I'm wrong.

In 3rd edition d&d there was a prestige class that mixed these two, I want to say it was in the halfling splat book but I'm not sure. It basically gave you sneak attack every 3 levels and a 3/4 caster level progression, making it slightly better then just multiclassing cleric/rogue.

I looked around in pathfinder and grey warden was the closest equivalent I could find but the sneak attack progression seems like almost an after thought. Technically arcane trickster would let you advance a divine casting class, but I didn't see any way around the "able to cast 2nd level arcane spells" meaning you'd have to take a 3 level dip just to qualify for the class which doesn't seem worth it in the grand scheme of things.

Yea, I don't know why anyone would do that to themselves when inquisitors are a thing.

I wanted to play a roguey cleric for years and years, even gave the PrC you are referring to a shot (Nightbane Stalker IIRC and not in the halfling book but in the same hard cover book as the spellthief, again IIRC.) Nothing satisfied me until we switched to PF and, voila: inquisitor FTW! Even moreso with the sanctified slayer archetype. It's like they read my mind.


born_of_fire wrote:


Yea, I don't know why anyone would do that to themselves when inquisitors are a thing.

I wanted to play a roguey cleric for years and years, even gave the PrC you are referring to a shot (Nightbane Stalker IIRC and not in the halfling book but in the same hard cover book as the spellthief, again IIRC.) Nothing satisfied me until we switched to PF and, voila: inquisitor FTW! Even moreso with the sanctified slayer archetype. It's like they read my mind.

Yeah, I did some more research and either I didn't find the class I was thinking of or I was misremembering. Black Flame adept and Temple Raider seemed to match the closest and both are less powerful than what I described.

But I digress. I agree that inquisitor is probably going to give the player what they want. You get some martial ability as well as the ability to use some healing magic. As for social skills they already get both bluff and diplomacy as class skills and if for some reason one of those 3 areas seems to be a bit weaker then they would like there are archetypes that specifically amp an area.


Zolanoteph wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Quote:
He says he thinks we need more healing capabilities (particularly at low, "pre-CLW-wand" levels) and wants to be able to do some of that. He'd also like to be able to have a presence in combat, and to have some social skills. ... His own favourite class is the cleric, but he's been struggling with hitting all three of his requirements (particularly getting good skills) at once.
Try multiclassing cleric and rogue in a finesse build -- it works surprisingly well as long as your frame of mind isn't stuck in needing nine levels of casting. He'll have skill points for days, and no weak spots in his saving throws.
Are you sure this actually works?! Sounds interesting but totally bizarre.
Why wouldn't it work? You basically a divine gish trading either high-level rogue abilities for a nice suite a buffing and self-protection, or a cleric who trades high-level casting for more all-around versatility and durability. While you could mix class levels evenly, just dipping in one is usually mechanically better.
Quote:
Also I feel like the sanctified Slayer (with or without rogue vmc) is such a good mix of Divine caster and sneaky character that it would Obsolete any sort of cleric rogue multiclass. Maybe I'm wrong.

Slayers have their place, but they're not rogues. They don't bring UMD, evasion, or Uncanny Dodge (or whatever slate of archetype goodies you want on your plate) to the starving cleric's table. On the flipside, clerics brings domain goodies to the starving rogue. For example:

half-elf (20pt), neutral-good
Str: 8
Dex+ 17
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

01 uRogue1 [Bandit/Rake][Bravado’s Blade][Skill Focus(Intimidate)], TWF
02 cleric1 [Tsukiyo:Darkness(Night:Blind Fight), Madness(Insanity)]
03 uRogue2 [Talent:combat trick:Combat Expertise], Moonlight Stalker
04 uRogue3 ...continue along an "Intiminancy" build. (Buy a Goz Mask when affordable.)

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