I have Asperger's Syndrome in real life and was thinking of making a character who has it also. What would it do stat wise? I was thinking a penalty to cha and a bonus to int (the character would be a wizard) Also would Heal cure Asperger's or would you need a wish or miracle for that?
Disclaimer, all I know about Asperger's I learned from Wikipedia.
Stat wise, looks like a -2 or -4 to Cha and for some people a -2 to Dex also. Compensatory increases are trickier. Unlike many other RPGs, PF lacks a generic advantage/disadvantage mechanism you could plug that into. If you want to stick to actual PF mechanics, you could make it a Drawback and get an extra Trait for it. In this case, with the Drawback giving you significant stat penalty(s), I think multiple compensatory Traits would be perfectly reasonable. Probably some are even apropos (though they need not be).
PF lacks rules for conditions like Asperger's, diabetes, cancer, or most other serious real-life problems, so the "rules" for getting rid of them are highly unclear at best. My personal take is that heal will remove acquired problems but that genetic ones require wish or miracle. I don't know what to do about the case of genetic predisposition to a condition. And Wikipedia says it's not clear how much of Asperger's is genetic anyway, so this is pretty up in the air. It's probably best to go the other direction---figure out how hard you want it to be to fix and let that determine whether you need a 6th-level or 9th-level spell.
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-Cha, +Int does seem about right. It could also be -Wis, because Asperger's Syndrome is often characterized by difficulties interacting with others and 'getting' things that seem intuitive to others. To an extent, this can come across as a lack of sense.
That said, I think the most important thing is to talk to your GM and ask about how this could be integrated into the game. Pathfinder has very limited ability to represent certain real-world things people may have, and while the creators try hard to be inclusive, it's hard to accurately represent something that can't easily be explained as a number.
One option could be implementing it as an Alternate Racial Trait. This would be a separate change to your stats, aside from whatever your race normally provides. People with Asperger's Syndrome tend to be very good with subjects they like, so... *Rubs chin* Maybe something like this?
Quote: Asperger's Syndrome: You don't think about things the way most members of your race do, and though some might call you a genius, you know it's more complicated than that. You are easily able to focus on subjects that catch your attention, granting you a +2 bonus to Intelligence, but your communication difficulties make it harder to interact with others and inflict a -2 penalty to Charisma.
You also gain 2 additional skill points each level. These points, and the skill point from your increased Intelligence, must be put into three chosen Knowledge or Lore skills at each level. (For example, if you put one of these points into Knowledge (Arcana), you must always put a point into that skill when you level up.) You may always Take 10 on these three skills, even in situations that would normally prevent you from doing so, and they are always class skills for you.
Also, your senses are more sensitive to the world around you - you try to hear every conversation, feel every drop of rain, and see every leaf. You gain a +2 bonus to all Perception checks, but if you beat the DC of a Perception check by 7 or more, the excessive stimulus imposes a -2 penalty to all Concentration checks and to Intelligence-based and Charisma-based skills. This penalty can stack with itself and lasts until you can take one minute, undisturbed, to refocus your senses, at which point all stacks of the penalty are removed. This penalty can only be caused by things with a Perception DC of 16 or higher - you've learned how to handle the sensory input of things more obvious than that.
This trait replaces the human's skilled racial trait (or a different racial trait, at the GM's discretion, if you are not playing a human).
Under no circumstances is this a perfect way of representing AS in a game, nor should it be considered an attempt to trivialize and assign numbers to a very real, complex condition that quite a few gamers have. Still, if nothing else, I hope it will serve as a starting point for integrating it into your game.
I don't this is a good idea. Really, this is kind of tasteless.
Now that said, it shouldn't be a set of modifiers. If you want to do this, or anything like this you just build a character with stats appropriate to what you want to RP.
Lets take for example I want to make a Gunslinger that is close to Doc Holiday. Doc was a twitchy guy, a gambler, drinker, and he had Tuberculosis that was sort of killing him. He was basically a thin, sickly guy that ran on alcohol and rage.
So I pump his dex, give him a con of 8 because he's unhealthy and I don't buy it up because its an RP thing. I want my unhealthy coughing up blood gunslinger to have a low con. And I pump his charisma and use the Mysterious Stranger archatype because it screams old west gunslinger and spaghetti western to me.
Picture what you want the character to be, then make it. Don't treat a genetic condition like a set of stat modifiers.
GM Rednal wrote: -Cha, +Int does seem about right. It could also be -Wis, because Asperger's Syndrome is often characterized by difficulties interacting with others and 'getting' things that seem intuitive to others. To an extent, this can come across as a lack of sense. In that case, I would drop Sense Motive directly, rather than Wis as a whole. I can say from experience that if anything, another Wis-based skill (perception) is increased by Asperger's (to a rather annoying extent in some cases)
Edit: on closer reading, I see that the trait takes that into account. The threshold might be the wrong way, though. If a noise can still keep you awake through two doors and a pair of earplugs, it's DC is a lot less than 16.
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Meirril wrote: I don't this is a good idea. Really, this is kind of tasteless.
Now that said, it shouldn't be a set of modifiers. If you want to do this, or anything like this you just build a character with stats appropriate to what you want to RP.
Lets take for example I want to make a Gunslinger that is close to Doc Holiday. Doc was a twitchy guy, a gambler, drinker, and he had Tuberculosis that was sort of killing him. He was basically a thin, sickly guy that ran on alcohol and rage.
So I pump his dex, give him a con of 8 because he's unhealthy and I don't buy it up because its an RP thing. I want my unhealthy coughing up blood gunslinger to have a low con. And I pump his charisma and use the Mysterious Stranger archatype because it screams old west gunslinger and spaghetti western to me.
Picture what you want the character to be, then make it. Don't treat a genetic condition like a set of stat modifiers.
you don't get to tell the guy with a condition, asking for help on how to represent the condition, that his idea is tasteless.
Don't try to be offended on other people's behalf.
From my observations of my daughter over the years, I'd say that GM Rendal's write-up seems pretty inline with her behavior.
She's currently in my RotR campaign as a Wizard/Swashbuckler/Eldritch Knight, and wants her character to have Autism just like she does. I may propose that racial trait to her.
@Sideromancer: I actually addressed the Perception thing in the racial trait. Bonus to Perception, but also runs the risk of getting too much information and having to struggle with that. A penalty to Sense Motive seems like a reasonable addition, though... Call it a -2 and have it also be affected by the overstimulus, maybe?
I put the DC 16 limit in place to account for training growing up - that is, education on how to handle the stimulus. I wanted it to be something that could happen on a regular basis, but wouldn't immediately and instantly stack because, for example, you make a DC 0 check to notice the sun is out. If it happens too much, a character would find it hard to meaningfully participate in the game, and that feels like it would defeat the purpose.
And for a bit of context, I have Asperger's, too - so I can speak from personal experience on this. I am not bothered if someone wants to make a character with this syndrome. That said, I think at least half of it should be RP-based, rather than anything on a character sheet. The alternate racial trait idea is meant, in part, to help the GM and other players understand the daily life of an Aspie and how it tends to affect their interactions with others, their interests and focuses, and the need to occasionally cool off. No set of mechanics in a game can fully explain or represent the complexities of a condition like the one we have, but then, Pathfinder isn't a perfect simulation game in the first place. It's intended to be a simplified version representing the condition in-game without attempting to cover every possible situation. It's also meant to highlight the unique talents and value an Aspie can offer to a group - maybe they're not very good at persuading shopkeepers to give you a discount when shopping, but if you need to know about a topic they have a real interest in, then dang do they have you covered.
fearcypher wrote: Meirril wrote: I don't this is a good idea. Really, this is kind of tasteless.
Now that said, it shouldn't be a set of modifiers. If you want to do this, or anything like this you just build a character with stats appropriate to what you want to RP.
Lets take for example I want to make a Gunslinger that is close to Doc Holiday. Doc was a twitchy guy, a gambler, drinker, and he had Tuberculosis that was sort of killing him. He was basically a thin, sickly guy that ran on alcohol and rage.
So I pump his dex, give him a con of 8 because he's unhealthy and I don't buy it up because its an RP thing. I want my unhealthy coughing up blood gunslinger to have a low con. And I pump his charisma and use the Mysterious Stranger archatype because it screams old west gunslinger and spaghetti western to me.
Picture what you want the character to be, then make it. Don't treat a genetic condition like a set of stat modifiers.
you don't get to tell the guy with a condition, asking for help on how to represent the condition, that his idea is tasteless.
Don't try to be offended on other people's behalf. You seem to be offended on behalf of OP but anyways ... I don't think he was trying to be offended for the poster but rather offended for the party if anything. Playing a character with a disability can be fun unless someone in the party actually has it. Obviously OP is ok with being the "butt of the joke" here but I think Meirril is suggesting that playing someone with Aspergers would make the group uncomfortable. His group may be fine with with it but it is a good idea to at least consider how they'll feel about it.
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Yqatuba wrote: I have Asperger's Syndrome in real life and was thinking of making a character who has it also. Meirril wrote: I don't this is a good idea. Really, this is kind of tasteless. It's tasteless to have Asperger's Syndrome in real life? Really!!!?
Or do you mean to tell someone who has Asperger's Syndrome that it's tasteless to bring themselves to the table as a character?
As a person with Asperger’s Syndrome, I have to say I find it is best to just be the GM. I know this means you aren’t getting to be a player, but you can always add an npc that tags along with the group or something, if you want.
The reason for being the GM instead of a player is simple. If there is even one “loud” or assertive player, it is going to be hard to get your word in, because it is hard to be assertive for us. Further more, often times we will actually know how something works better than the GM, which causes arguments.
For instance, being an animal lover, one of my interests is animals. I know how dogs and wolves behave better than the normal person. I had my animal companion wolf track a scent to find our enemy, and she came back whimpering, which could only mean she encountered something that scared her, since wolves don’t just run whimpering. The party had reason to go investigate a house, and follow the path my wolf came from. The target somehow went on a long winded path leading to the house, yet was already there right after my wolf came back whimpering.
As such, because the GM didn’t know what he was talking about when he made my wolf do the whimpering and running back to me for no reason, half the party nearly died since we split up. There was an argument for a long time between me and the GM.
But if you are the GM, the players have to listen to you, as you are every npc and enemy. And no arguments will arise if a subject you have as an interest pops up.
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As someone who's also on the spectrum, I think it's unnecessary to put it into stats or traits. Roleplay is all you need.
I have several friends on the spectrum, and none of them fall in the same bucket. Yes, most of them are quite smart and analytical, but depending on the severity of the autism, you can also be underdeveloped (think Rain Man, in some areas he was very smart, but basically behaved like a child sometimes - which might also fall under Charisma, but that's a different issue). I've met a guy who might be the friendliest guy I've ever met, but is also on the spectrum. He's very social, maybe overly so, but had absolutely no self-restraint. His parents had to give him a daily allowance, because otherwise he'd spend it all in one go. High Charisma, low Wisdom. There's one guy who's very quiet, but when he speaks, he's brief, direct, and to the point. No word is wasted, but what he says is an exact conclusion to whatever we're talking about. Low Charisma (hell, maybe not even), high Wisdom. And yeah, others have trouble interacting with people (including myself), so that's indicative of low Charisma (but then again, what if you have trouble interacting, but are really good at it? Is that high or low Charisma?)
In short, stats aren't absolute and don't say everything about your character. You can play an INT 7 character that's still curious about learning, he just has absolutely no aptitude for it. And vice versa, CHA 16 doesn't mean you talk to people all day long, just that you're very good at it. you can still make a CHA 12+ character and still portray a mental illness very well, I think. It's just what you as a player decide to focus on is what's important.
Given the wide range of things it affects, I don't think a straight mental stats change is comprehensive really. Unfortunately we'd have to to break down the specific things that go over your head or aren't noticed vs the things that catch you and hold your attention hard vs the things you're really knowledgeable about but aren't so fixated on as to cause a distraction in and of themselves...
I'd almost give it a luck mechanic. Intentionally allow failing rolls for thematic reasons - 'I would never notice that, I roll a 1 for my sense motive on this.' Give a hero point or something each time this happens at an appropriate time, which can later represent your compensatory strengths.
And don't let the haters get you down, it's as appropriate as you and your table decide it is. I've never thought of doing this actually, I might try to stat someone up later.
To cure Asperger's Syndrome, I think you're going to need far more than just a heal spell. A Wish, a Miracle, or the help of a powerful Outsider (Empyreal Lord or Infernal Duke level of power) would be what I required to remove such a complex condition. The same would go for cancer or anything else of that nature.
fearcypher wrote:
you don't get to tell the guy with a condition, asking for help on how to represent the condition, that his idea is tasteless.
Don't try to be offended on other people's behalf.
Trying to quantify a genetic condition in game terms is the part I have trouble with. Not the playing someone with Asperger's Syndrome or whatever else a player wants to do.
And the part I find offensive personally is the attempt to insert it in game terms. That is offensive to me as a gamer. Buying stats that match the character you want to portray is great. Trying to quantify mods for Asperger's or anything like it is the part that bugs me. People share symptoms, but they aren't all going to be alike. Making something like a template offends me in a way I find difficult to describe.
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@Meirril: Mass, Velocity, Acceleration Due to Gravity, and Impact Force are collectively "fall damage". Various forms of martial combat are "attack bonuses". Complex cellular repair slowed by cauterizing is Regeneration (fire and acid). Most of Pathfinder involves reducing complex, real-world topics to simplified game terms.
That said, the OP specifically requested help with including AS in a way that affects the stats of his character. If you don't find that fun, that's okay. I will never presume to tell you what your type of fun should or shouldn't be, or how you may or may not want to include things in your own games.
But, to be a bit blunt here, this isn't about your game. It's about the OP's game, and he made a specific request for help doing something in a specific way. Telling him he has no taste for wanting to incorporate something into his own games in a way he'd like to is... a little much. I think it's fine to say "I don't think this is best represented by stats - I'd look for a way of doing it entirely through roleplay instead". But saying it's too offensive to you, and therefore someone else shouldn't do it or ask for help with it, is not something I can agree with.
Asperger's Syndrome (mild)
* INT+2, CHA-2
* Charisma-based skills can never be class.
* Skill Focus in (INT bonus/2) intelligence-based skills
Asperger's Syndrome (severe)
* INT+4, DEX-2, WIS-2, CHA-2
* Alertness
* Charisma-based skills and dexterity-based skills can never be class
* Skill focus in (INT bonus) intelligence skills
IRL, they're the engineers and other lab-coat types who say the wrong things on Twitter. In Pathfinder, they're wizards to be reckoned with.
Racial bonuses may offset penalties, but positive bonuses will not stack.
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From a balance perspective, I would say it's not appropriate to allow for int bonuses and charisma penalties, considering int already does a lot of heavy lifting in this game compared to cha.
Personally, I would argue that it should simply be an RP issue.
You can have a character with Asperger's, but it does not need to be reflected mechanically in the character.
If you want to represent it (and assuming you're using point buy) you can always increase your int and dump your cha.
But there's no reason IMO, to give an additional bonus that will ultimately make a powerful class into a more powerful character.
This seems at least partially remedied by the GM imposing a maximum of 18 in stats after all modifiers. That'll keep things within the expected range. Alternately, it could replace the human's normal racial ability bonus. +2 Int, -2 Cha is objectively worse (mechanically speaking) than +2 Any, so it's hard to say that would be overpowered. Heck, it would even go against the normal rule, which is that races should generally offer a total of +2 to ability scores (and this'd be +0).
GM Rednal wrote: This seems at least partially remedied by the GM imposing a maximum of 18 in stats after all modifiers. That'll keep things within the expected range. Alternately, it could replace the human's normal racial ability bonus. +2 Int, -2 Cha is objectively worse (mechanically speaking) than +2 Any, so it's hard to say that would be overpowered. Heck, it would even go against the normal rule, which is that races should generally offer a total of +2 to ability scores (and this'd be +0). So about why I don't like the direction this discussion is taking. When you can reasonably discuss taking something like Asperger's because you want the +2 int bonus and you can buy your cha back to 10 so you can argue later that you're character is an exception because your charisma is 'normal' and you can half ass the RP aspects it stops being about one player trying to RP and it starts being about every twit that wants the bonus from a 'disadvantage'.
Does this make any sense to you now?
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@Meirril: What people choose to do in terms of taking flaws and portraying them from a roleplaying perspective is up to them, their table, and their GM.
For that matter, it's not like all people with AS have below-average Charisma. Some of them do function better than others in social environments, and I see no particular reason to enforce a "you MUST be at the extremes" portrayal of the condition. That's... less true than buying back the Charisma drop would be, and it feels a little like you're trying to tell me the condition isn't real unless it's done in the way you say it should be. AS is... complex. It doesn't easily fit that kind of thinking.
I understand not wanting to introduce a bunch of glossed-over "flaws" for mechanical benefits, but honestly, I don't think it's too likely to be a problem. If I were proposing an official way to include mental syndromes (such as the Autism spectrum) in the game, I'd probably come up with something else. But I'm not doing that. I'm offering one player - and anybody else who'd like to use it - one stat-based way to add it to the game if that's what their table wants to do. It is their game - they, and only they, should be the ones to decide what sensitive topics are included and how they are handled.
Also...
EVERYONE: I feel like things are getting a little tense in this thread. I'd prefer to avoid getting this locked because things got too heated - I don't think we've heard back from the OP yet, and they may have more questions - so please remember to follow Paizo's rules and remain polite with each other if you disagree with something. ^^
Hi it's me again. I guess it could be just RPed but I thought of another effect it might have: most people with AS have some type of sensory input they can't stand: for me it's the texture of certain foods (which literally make me sick). I was thinking maybe you could pick some stimulus that makes the character sickened/nauseated if they fail a save.
Yqatuba wrote: I was thinking maybe you could pick some stimulus that makes the character sickened/nauseated if they fail a save. Tearing of paper, cardboard dragged on concrete... Uhggg...
Good eye for detail.
I know I recommended being the GM, but I decided I would give an idea to the player idea. Stimming is something us peeps with Asperger’s typically do. You might want to incorporate that somehow. Like taking a move action (without actually moving to a different square, although you can do so if you want) lets you get a bonus of some sort.
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