| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like there might be a lot of different ideas about what defines a paladin mechanically, and I think knowing what some of those ideas are, might help make more of people's character concepts viable and fun, without attempting to force one class to cary the burden of trying to do all of those things while retaining the sense that it is a class defined more by its narrative elements than its mechanical ones.
People see paladins as: (some see only one of these, some see multiple, some certainly see something else entirely and should feel free to add it)
Holy knights of virtuousness
Divine Paragons (some wanting that to be able to cover all faiths and some wanting the paladin to be a divine paragon with a code that pushes them towards a righteousness that rises above even the expectations of their deity.)
Masters of fighting evil.
A mechanically stronger fighting character than most martial characters, balanced (or not balanced depending on one's opinion of the class) by narrative elements.
A stick in the mud that looks cooler in theory than it plays on the table and encourages player self-righteousness.
A trope of fantasy literature that feels missing from the fighter class or the cavalier.This feels like a challenging group of ideas to balance and not all of them play very well together.
So the next question becomes how important is it to tie these character concepts to one class and how do you do that?
I think we will need to wait to see what the playtest paladin looks like in greater detail as far as how much flexibility can be tweaked out of its class feats, as well as what archetypes really allow for, before any of these debates about the paladin are going to be resolvable.
Right now we know the PF2 Paladin has:
1. Smite Evil
2. Detect Evil
3. A much weakened Divine Grace
4. No immunities (I are sad)
5. Spells
6. Lay on Hands
7. Can get Legendary Armor Proficiency
8. A Feat that grants it Wings and a Halo.
I'd also like to add:
9. Alignment locked (LG for now...)
10. A tiered Code of Conduct
11. Anathema from patron deity
These are pretty self-explanatory, but I feel they are important to gauge where Paizo is taking the Paladin in PF2 both mechanically AND thematically. Mark stated in the Paladin blog that the Paladin is an "alignment driven champion", how that will all play out is yet to be seen. But regardless, alignment (love it or hate it) is a core feature. For the Code, instead of cutting it out they decided to improve upon it. Which again shows the direction they are taking. Finally, the Anathema seems to me to be part of the core. Even if they make an atheistic option, I'm sure their will still be an anathema attached to it.
Hwalsh, can you link to that? Is it rituals?
It was confirmed that we get those as well, but a separate confirmation regarding spellcasting in the Paladin thread.it was abilities using spell points, based of charisma,It was confirmed that we are getting charisma based spellcasting.Do we know they get spells? or powers usable with spell points? Because that is what I thought the litanies were moving to.
Right now we know the PF2 Paladin has:
1. Smite Evil
2. Detect Evil
3. A much weakened Divine Grace
4. No immunities (I are sad)
5. Spells
6. Lay on Hands
7. Can get Legendary Armor Proficiency
8. A Feat that grants it Wings and a Halo.
Mark seemed to say otherwise during the Paladin twitch stream...
Hopefully the link works...https://www.twitch.tv/videos/260331209
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The exact quote is,
Your spells are indeed Charisma-based.
Paladin doesn't get spell-slot based casting, just spells to spend spell points on. They get inexpensive spells (costing one point where other classes would probably have to pay two for something comparable) that are generally as powerful as a full caster's top-level spells, though, so the result is a sort of super-spontaneous caster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With all that has been revealed about the classes, and time marching ever closer to the Playtest drop. I thought I'd revisit this Paladin Mechanics thread. Seeing Paizo's general direction has given me a lot of ideas of what I'd like to see for the Paladin...
First off, I'd like to comment on abilities we know about then go into my own ideas.
Divine Grace- I have good reason to believe that this ability does not key off of CHA anymore, (find my reason here) regardless I'd like this ability to scale. +6 at level 20 is not overpowered, especially since it's a reaction now. Which leads me...
Reactions- I'm still concerned about the Paladin's reaction glut. Retributive Strike, Divine Grace, Attack of Opportunity, Shield Block, Grab Edge(?), etc. It would ease the pressure if I could take a feat somewhere to give me the ability to have two reactions in a turn. Even if that meant it's two of a specific type. (say like Divine Grace) Or a General Feat that gives me additional reactions.
Retributive Strike- We know that Oath feats take away the penalty of RS against Oath enemies. But what if I wanted to make a Retributive Strike focused Paladin? What are my feat options? Is Aura of Vengeance it?...
Blade of Justice- We have a better idea as to how this works from the Barbarian and Ranger preview. It seems that Rage, Blade of Justice, and Hunt Target either give a bonus to attack OR damage. Since the Gauntlet blog mentions nothing of BoJ's attack going up I am under the impression that it's only damage. The difference between BoJ and the other two is that BoJ is not an ability. We have to jump through some hoops to get it. (Righteous Blade Ally then grab it as a feat) I love the utility of it, that the Paladin can smite all day every day if there's evil around. But it comes at a steep cost... One of your precious actions PER TURN! (Mark personally confirmed this to me) So taking that all in, I'm hoping that does more than just boost damage. (which is less than PF1e Smite Evil mind you) I'm hoping for either a small boost to attack (which helps make those two actions count) OR ignore Resistances with every hit. I'm leaning towards the latter...
The Young Red Dragon throws up its head and bellows a cruel laugh as she watches the Paladin walk peacefully toward her with a FLAMING Longsword...
“Fool!!” she cries as she swoops in for the kill. Little does she know that the Sword is now imbued with Righteous, Holy Fire. A fire she cannot resist... And she will pay dearly for that mistake.
For the non-previewed abilities, I've been using a trend that I've noticed from Paizo. They've been getting some of their inspiration from Paladin Spells. Hero's Defiance and Litanies are straight up Paladin Features now. Restoration has been folded into Lay on Hands. (especially with the new focus on conditions) Ultimate Mercy is still Raise Dead. Then there's the Angelic Aspect like feat that Mark mentioned. The list could go on, so I'll mention some of my own...
Righteous Mount Feats- Perhaps give them aspects of Saddle Surge or even Radiant Charge. We want to see Paladin's Charging!!
Righteous Shield Feats- We know that the Fighter gets Shield Warden, the Paladin should too! Either here or elsewhere...
Paladin's Sacrifice- Yes! We know that Paizo is taking the Paladin in a “Protect my friends” direction. This spell screamed that! Let's see it 2e.
Swift Girding/Bed of Iron- Since the Paladin is Legendary in Armour, he should don it with amazing speed (a la Iron Man?...) and/or be able to sleep in it with causing fatigue. (What does Legendary Armour give you!! Argh!)
Paladin's Fall- Ok, this one is not about what the Paladin gets, it's about what he loses. I firmly believe that when a Paladin falls, he loses his connection to the Divine. So that would include any “Divinely Inspired” abilities and feats. Spell Point powers and Righteous Ally is a good start... But what about all the Auras? (including the Resistance to Evil damage Aura of Righteousness) Divine Grace? (emphasis on the word Divine) Angelic Aspect like Feat? Sense Evil? Need I go on?... A fallen Paladin should keep his proficiencies and maybe Retributive Strike. (though even that one is debatable because there are a couple auras that play off that ability)
With all that has been revealed about the classes, and time marching ever closer to the Playtest drop. I thought I'd revisit this Paladin Mechanics thread. Seeing Paizo's general direction has given me a lot of ideas of what I'd like to see for the Paladin...
First off, I'd like to comment on abilities we know about then go into my own ideas.
Divine Grace- I have good reason to believe that this ability does not key off of CHA anymore, (find my reason here) regardless I'd like this ability to scale. +6 at level 20 is not overpowered, especially since it's a reaction now. Which leads me...Reactions- I'm still concerned about the Paladin's reaction glut. Retributive Strike, Divine Grace, Attack of Opportunity, Shield Block, Grab Edge(?), etc. It would ease the pressure if I could take a feat somewhere to give me the ability to have two reactions in a turn. Even if that meant it's two of a specific type. (say like Divine Grace) Or a General Feat that gives me additional reactions.
Retributive Strike- We know that Oath feats take away the penalty of RS against Oath enemies. But what if I wanted to make a Retributive Strike focused Paladin? What are my feat options? Is Aura of Vengeance it?...
Blade of Justice- We have a better idea as to how this works from the Barbarian and Ranger preview. It seems that Rage, Blade of Justice, and Hunt Target either give a bonus to attack OR damage. Since the Gauntlet blog mentions nothing of BoJ's attack going up I am under the impression that it's only damage. The difference between BoJ and the other two is that BoJ is not an ability. We have to jump through some hoops to get it. (Righteous Blade Ally then grab it as a feat) I love the utility of it, that the Paladin can smite all day every day if there's evil around. But it comes at a steep cost... One of your precious actions PER TURN! (Mark personally confirmed this to me) So taking that all...
...yeah. I am not happy with the action knotting. In order to be the paladin they were in PF1, they're going to need to:
* Use up an action to use LoH, instead of swift* Use up a reaction to get divine grace, instead of it being constant
* ...use another action to control their mount, if they have one. Mind, I'm onboard with this last one, but taken as a total it hurts.
...and smite does not sound as cool or as interesting as it was in PF1. I'm afraid the new action economy is going to hit classes that relied on swift actions with a sledgehammer.
I mean, to be the paladin you were in PF1, you'll have 1-2 actions a turn at MOST, and no Reaction.
Smite also, seems reliant on a property of the enemy (weakness to good) rather than an inherit part of the paladin. That feels wrong, you know?
To add to the icing, that iconic of reacting and leaping in to save someone? You're foregoing divine grace, which is one of the mechanics that encouraged and supported that heroic style of play in the first place.
Then there was the paladin's defenses against persuasive effects. That was pretty awesome and iconic, because what do demons use? >.>
Mind, I would not mind seeing that change to a protection versus possession, and the ability to expend a use of smite to perform a martial-style exorcism.
I am worried right now, and hoping things sort themselves out. PF1 paladin was wonderful. PF2 has a high standard to meet.
PF1's paladin was a reason to play Pathfinder over 5e. It was a reason to play Pathfinder over 3.5. It is just that good and fun to play.
...and smite does not sound as cool or as interesting as it was in PF1... Smite also, seems reliant on a property of the enemy (weakness to good) rather than an inherit part of the paladin. That feels wrong, you know?
Actually, I'm excited for 2e Smite. My biggest problem with Smite in 1e was the fear of wasting it. Against the BBEG it made sense, but what if there are more than one BBEGs or multiple evils on the way to BBEG?... The versatility of 2e Smite is a welcome addition. Also, I can't count the times my 1e Paladin got knocked out mid fight and lost the Smite (though I think that got errata'd out...) Choosing multiple enemies throughout the day to Smite is exciting! Losing the CHA to AC and attack hurts, but I'm willing to take it for balance reasons.
2e Smite is not reliant upon weakness to Good, I see it more as the 1e double damage to Undead, evil dragons, evil outsiders. As in 1e, the Paladin is REALLY good at taking down those enemies. In fact, it could do MORE damage to the weakness to Good creatures since it's flat damage every hit.(not just the first hit) If the automatically bypasses Resistances bit stays, then I would say we have a superior version. As in, I'm SUPER AWESOME a couple times a day to I'm AWESOME a lot of the time. I like the freedom of choice.I mean, to be the paladin you were in PF1, you'll have 1-2 actions a turn at MOST, and no Reaction.
I'm not planning on doing this myself, but maybe you should Playtest a PF1e Paladin in 2e? What are the differences? What are the similarities? Can it be done effectively?...
Then there was the paladin's defenses against persuasive effects. That was pretty awesome and iconic, because what do demons use? >.>
I personally think that Paladins should be Master at Will saves for this exact reason... =^D
PF1's paladin was a reason to play Pathfinder over 5e. It was a reason to play Pathfinder over 3.5. It is just that good and fun to play.
I'm fully behind this statement. I LOVE my Pathfinder Paladin.
...and smite does not sound as cool or as interesting as it was in PF1... Smite also, seems reliant on a property of the enemy (weakness to good) rather than an inherit part of the paladin. That feels wrong, you know?Actually, I'm excited for 2e Smite. My biggest problem with Smite in 1e was the fear of wasting it. Against the BBEG it made sense, but what if there are more than one BBEGs or multiple evils on the way to BBEG?... The versatility of 2e Smite is a welcome addition. Also, I can't count the times my 1e Paladin got knocked out mid fight and lost the Smite (though I think that got errata'd out...) Choosing multiple enemies throughout the day to Smite is exciting! Losing the CHA to AC and attack hurts, but I'm willing to take it for balance reasons.
2e Smite is not reliant upon weakness to Good, I see it more as the 1e double damage to Undead, evil dragons, evil outsiders. As in 1e, the Paladin is REALLY good at taking down those enemies. In fact, it could do MORE damage to the weakness to Good creatures since it's flat damage every hit.(not just the first hit) If the automatically bypasses Resistances bit stays, then I would say we have a superior version. As in, I'm SUPER AWESOME a couple times a day to I'm AWESOME a lot of the time. I like the freedom of choice.
I mean, to be the paladin you were in PF1, you'll have 1-2 actions a turn at MOST, and no Reaction.I'm not planning on doing this myself, but maybe you should Playtest a PF1e Paladin in 2e? What are the differences? What are the similarities? Can it be done effectively?...
Then there was the paladin's defenses against persuasive effects. That was pretty awesome and iconic, because what do demons use? >.>I personally think that Paladins should be Master at Will saves for this exact reason... =^D
PF1's paladin was a reason to play Pathfinder over 5e. It was a reason to play Pathfinder over 3.5. It is...
Howdy. :D I am a fan of Paizo in general. So, please take my concerns here in that way!
Part of the concerns stem from how the Unchained action updates changed classes that used or relied on swift actions. It wasn't always even, if that makes sense.
So yes, I will be playtesting! Based on what they have said, as well, and experience with Unchained, the action economy effect on swift-action users is a huge concern. The usage of Reaction is as well--I expect many of their Heroic Saves to be tied to Reactions.
...which...well, that's going to tie things up, isn't it? The paladin's defenses, which included DG, lent themselves so well to that.
Those are things I will be specifically looking at.
I never used the Unchained rules, so I can't say one or the other. But I will be paying attention to Reaction glut as I mentioned before. I'm hoping for feats to solve the problem. Perhaps a Combat Maneuvers type feat that's from the General Feat list? Or specific class feats? We know there is a Shield other feat that does that specifically from the Fighter blog. So it can be on the table...
PS- I'll check out the Unchained action book...
I've always loved the idea of a paladin, but never liked the mechanics. I just can't play them, the mechanics put me off so much.
There is one archetype though that I'd like to see in pf2, the enlightened fist paladin archetype. Basically a monk like paladin. Though it would be nice if it was still an anti-evil paladin rather than a paladin of perfection/ki.
I've always loved the idea of a paladin, but never liked the mechanics. I just can't play them, the mechanics put me off so much.
There is one archetype though that I'd like to see in pf2, the enlightened fist paladin archetype. Basically a monk like paladin. Though it would be nice if it was still an anti-evil paladin rather than a paladin of perfection/ki.
Well, actually you could potentially build a Paladin like that from Core... At level 1 the Paladin gets an ability called Deific Weapon. This is a buff to simple weapons that are also your Deities favoured weapon. (I just learned that Paladins get it for free while Clerics have to spend a feat to get it.) Choose Irori as your Deity. His favoured weapon is unarmed strike. (which is a simple weapon) Bingo!, you have an unarmed strike Paladin. I can even imagine your Righteous Weapon Ally being your fists... The only problem I see is the lack of AC. Monks start as Expert Unarmoured at level 1, you'll probably have to wait until level 5 to accomplish the same AC with light armour... But I'm not sure. But I'm sure it can be done.
I hope this helps!
Aaargh. I had an idea that would be (relatively) easy for Paizo to implement and make a lot of people happy (I think), but mentioning it doesn't follow the rules of this thread... :(
So, I guess as a regular contribution... one of the only things I like about 5E's Paladin is the Oath of the Ancients. So something like that, maybe?
Aaargh. I had an idea that would be (relatively) easy for Paizo to implement and make a lot of people happy (I think), but mentioning it doesn't follow the rules of this thread... :(
So, I guess as a regular contribution... one of the only things I like about 5E's Paladin is the Oath of the Ancients. So something like that, maybe?
Alignment I'm guessing?... Sorry, not here. We'd like this thread to be kept open. ;^)
Oath of the Ancient has a very Fey/Elf/Druid vibe to it. I could see that coming in a later book. Though I could see Elf Paladins taking that Oath, it is very Elfish...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aaargh. I had an idea that would be (relatively) easy for Paizo to implement and make a lot of people happy (I think), but mentioning it doesn't follow the rules of this thread... :(
So, I guess as a regular contribution... one of the only things I like about 5E's Paladin is the Oath of the Ancients. So something like that, maybe?
Alignment I'm guessing?... Sorry, not here. We'd like this thread to be kept open. ;^)
Oath of the Ancient has a very Fey/Elf/Druid vibe to it. I could see that coming in a later book. Though I could see Elf Paladins taking that Oath, it is very Elfish...
Well...
And I like how Oath of the Ancients just focus on Light and Goodness without more specifics than that.
What is the Oath of the Ancients?
What I want- An Oraclesque Paladin.
Someone who has been chosen by one or more divine beings either to put or because they already were on a path to greatness- but the Paladin in question has no idea who granted these powers or why and nobody is stepping forward explain. Said Pally still has to follow the code (because their inherent ethical compass is a good part of why they were chosen to begin with) but is free to venerate as many or as few deities as is appropriate.
Do this as an archetype and I'm happy.
What is the Oath of the Ancients?
It is from D&D 5E, and is about the only thing I like about Paladins from that game. In 5E, your Paladin chooses an Oath at level 3 to differentiate it from other Paladins. Like a subclass or "forced" archetype. Oath of the Ancients is one of them.
What I want- An Oraclesque Paladin.
Someone who has been chosen by one or more divine beings either to put or because they already were on a path to greatness- but the Paladin in question has no idea who granted these powers or why and nobody is stepping forward explain. Said Pally still has to follow the code (because their inherent ethical compass is a good part of why they were chosen to begin with) but is free to venerate as many or as few deities as is appropriate.
Do this as an archetype and I'm happy.
Honestly? I'm hoping a "Divinely-Chosen" is a Universal archetype. So much flavor there.
|
If a character type is narrowly defined, then it probably shouldn't be a class of its own.
Why do you even need an entire new class to have a heavily armored fighting person with divine abilities? You could just have a fighter with cleric levels, or some sort of archetype.
Unless the paladin has a wide range of builds, styles, and roles in the game, it shouldn't exist as an entire class. The rule books are jammed for space as it is; if we're just making a glorified fighter with an archetype, they might as well use that space for new feats or something.
I'm not arguing that the paladin SHOULDN'T be its own class. I'm just saying that a narrowly defined view of what a paladin is or should be is not the best approach.
Agreed. I'm personally of the opinion that core classes should allow for a wide variety of characters that still fit a common theme (mechanical and aesthetic), and singling out Paladin as this one "very narrow and specific class" as opposed to "all the other, more generic classes" just feels really odd to say the least.
Nobody argues that Wizard should be just like Gandalf and nothing else, or that all Barbarians are slightly different takes on Conan. So why should all Paladins be based solely on Arthurian knights and nothing else?
Again, alignment arguments aside, there should be more than one way to make/play/build a Paladin, and more than one source of inspiration, if the class is to warrant its spot on the list of core classes.
All this said, more focus on the Law side of things would be interesting to see. If we're sticking to Paladins being LG-only (by default at least), then I feel as though the Law-Chaos part of it should be expanded upon in the mechanics and feat(ure)s, and not just the aspect of "well you must strive not to break the law, ever".
People have mention the possibility of things like Detect/Smite Chaos, or them otherwise interacting with Chaos, which I personally really like the prospect of - especially if it means that it can lead to conflict between characters who while otherwise Good-aligned are still conflicted on the Law-Chaos axis.
There's a lot of relatively unexplored room on the Law-Chaos axis when it comes to Paladins, and I feel like having more mechanics that play off that would be a great way to make and highlight characters which are more Law-focused as opposed to Good-focused, or some that strive for a balance of both.
Again I know this is supposed to be an alignment discussion-free thread, but I do feel as though there is room to make the LG-restricted Paladin more interesting if it's to stay (which it is), and it's worth discussing how that can be accomplished.
...All this said, more focus on the Law side of things would be interesting to see. If we're sticking to Paladins being LG-only (by default at least), then I feel as though the Law-Chaos part of it should be expanded upon in the mechanics and feat(ure)s, and not just the aspect of "well you must strive not to break the law, ever".
People have mention the possibility of things like Detect/Smite Chaos, or them otherwise interacting with Chaos, which I personally really like the prospect of - especially if it means that it can lead to conflict between characters who while otherwise Good-aligned are still conflicted on the Law-Chaos axis.There's a lot of relatively unexplored room on the Law-Chaos axis when it comes to Paladins, and I feel like having more mechanics that play off that would be a great way to make and highlight characters which are more Law-focused as opposed to Good-focused, or some that strive for a balance of both.
Again I know this is supposed to be an alignment discussion-free thread, but I do feel as though there is room to make the LG-restricted Paladin more interesting if it's to stay (which it is), and it's worth discussing how that can be accomplished.
This could be interesting.
Though I have to say, I rather like the idea of Lawful focused feats being tied to particular deities. Like Abadar for instance... So maybe in the future Paizo can release Deity Paladin feats and then you can flavour your paladin even more to your particular deity...
Honestly? I'm hoping a "Divinely-Chosen" is a Universal archetype. So much flavor there.
I just want to remove the "devoted to one particular deity" from the Paladin, or at least have the option to do so.
What about Capstone feats? I'm thinking turning into an Angel is one of them, but what about the others? (I'm guessing there are three of them like the Druid has) I never cared much for the Banishment aspect of 1e Paladins, but I loved the heal for max. I want that as a capstone but with more bells and whistles...
What I want- An Oraclesque Paladin.
Someone who has been chosen by one or more divine beings either to put or because they already were on a path to greatness- but the Paladin in question has no idea who granted these powers or why and nobody is stepping forward explain. Said Pally still has to follow the code (because their inherent ethical compass is a good part of why they were chosen to begin with) but is free to venerate as many or as few deities as is appropriate.
Do this as an archetype and I'm happy.
Oracladin is a pretty darn cool idea.