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Grapple came up in my latest PF1 session, again. I told the player I will have to grab* my two-page flowchart first. This was a joke - that I would dig for such a complex overview for an already decided battle, but not that it's two pages. Even in the CRB it's roughly a full page of rules text, if you include the section about the grappled condition.
* Accidental pun.
So I'd like to see a simplified version of grapple in PF2. What do you think?
Yes, please. More tractable grappling rules would be wonderful.
You're saying you don't have a printed, laminated flowchart?
Or, alternatively, grappling rules so complicated, nobody can use them. Really it’s only the middle ground that causes problems!
I would love to see something along the lines of what 5e did with grapple.
I'm interested whether anyone has any actual proposals on how to make the grapple rules better. Personally, I like them, but I'd be interested to see suggestions for improvement.
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The new action economy presents some opportunities for this. I don't actually want to see grapple dumbed down and oversimplified like D&D did moving to 4th and onward, but it definitely needs to be explained better and made more intuitive. The chief obstacle is clarity, getting everything across clearly. So, hm...
- Make grapple its own subchapter in the Combat chapter. Grapple should be a big main-heading, probably occupying its own 1-2 page spread in layout with nothing impinging on its space. The various actions you can do within a grapple should be their own clearly marked sub-headings. This by itself would go a long way.
- The monster ability "Grab" should not use different rules from grappling. If that ability is still around in some fashion, it should only exist as a bonus to grapple checks, eg Grab +4. It's hard enough trying to remember one version of grappling. If a monster has some feature like long tentacles that allow it to do special tricks like grappling an opponent without becoming grappled in turn, that should be called out as a separate ability but still interact with the grappling rules.
- PF2 has "staged" conditions, like Dying 1, Dying 2, etc. Grappled should probably be the same. Grappled 1 means someone has a grip on you, grappled 2 means you're actually locked into wrestling someone, grappled 3 means you're pinned. Or just use the latter two, as long as it's clear. This should reduce confusion that always comes up about whether Pinned stacked with Grappled (it doesn't), because now Pinned will be just a further tier of Grappled.
- Make it exceedingly clear how many actions an escape attempt requires, whether you can keep retrying failed escape attempts if you have more actions, whether an escape attempt only reduces your Grappled condition by 1 step or removes it entirely, and how far away you can move from your opponent on a successful escape.
- Some actions in a grapple duplicate other maneuvers, like dragging someone. This should be called out as being literally the same as those other maneuvers, so any feats or abilities you have to modify and improve those maneuvers also apply when used in a grapple.
- Clarify how size interacts with grappling and what actions you can take within it. I'm inclined to say that if you're too small to drag someone while in a grapple, then you're also too small to really be counted as grappling them at all. There should be rules for climbing large monsters to cover this situation, that are separate from grappling.
- At the same time, we have Master and Legendary proficiencies in PF2 that will allow crazy things. So if a Legendary monk can wrestle a great wyrm or suplex a ghost train, that's fine - IF AND ONLY IF you make it incredibly clear WHAT proficiency ranks in WHICH skills allow HOW MUCH extra difference in size category.
- Make it exceedingly clear what non-grapple-related actions you can still take while you are locked in a grapple, and what penalties if any apply to them.
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Three action initiative excites me here.
I hope they keep Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense (but hopefully don't have high-CR monsters with skyrocketing CMD you can never affect).
There'd be 3 stages of the Grabbed condition. You can make a Combat Maneuver as an action to increase the stage. Each attempt is an attack, so doing more than one incurs the cumulative -5 penalty. (A feat like Improved Grapple would let you spend two actions to make one roll to immediately get to stage two.)
Grab 1. The target is held by you. The target takes a -2 penalty to AC and to attack rolls against other people. They cannot move beyond your grasp without first escaping your grab. (Which is, you guessed it, a combat maneuver check!) If you get moved against your will, you can roll to drag them with you.
Grab 2. The target is grappled. They can't move at all without succeeding a check to reduce the condition to Grab 1. You can automatically move the foe when you move. They can't use two-handed weapons. When you inflict this condition on a foe, you gain the Grab 1 condition if you don't already have it.
Grab 3. The target is pinned. They're unable to take actions other than purely mental ones, or efforts to break the pin. When you inflict this condition on a foe, you gain the Grab 2 condition if you don't already have it.
If you are grabbing someone, you can release the grab as a free action, or you can maintain it by spending an action (no check required).
If you're grabbed, you can make a Combat Maneuver Check to reduce your condition one step. You have to fully remove the condition from yourself before you can gain control of the grapple and start inflicting the condition. (Again, maybe some feats could let you reverse the grab with a two-action maneuver.)
That's a rough idea.
But all the weirder rules from grappling aren't necessary. You grab a person, you hold restrict their movements, and then you pin them. Easy. You already have bull rush/drag as a maneuver, so no need to repeat that in Grapple. Damaging someone? No combat maneuver check; just make an attack roll.
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Three action initiative excites me here.
I hope they keep Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense (but hopefully don't have high-CR monsters with skyrocketing CMD you can never affect).
There'd be 3 stages of the Grabbed condition. You can make a Combat Maneuver as an action to increase the stage. Each attempt is an attack, so doing more than one incurs the cumulative -5 penalty. (A feat like Improved Grapple would let you spend two actions to make one roll to immediately get to stage two.)
Grab 1. The target is held by you. The target takes a -2 penalty to AC and to attack rolls against other people. They cannot move beyond your grasp without first escaping your grab. (Which is, you guessed it, a combat maneuver check!) If you get moved against your will, you can roll to drag them with you.
Grab 2. The target is grappled. They can't move at all without succeeding a check to reduce the condition to Grab 1. You can automatically move the foe when you move. They can't use two-handed weapons. When you inflict this condition on a foe, you gain the Grab 1 condition if you don't already have it.
Grab 3. The target is pinned. They're unable to take actions other than purely mental ones, or efforts to break the pin. When you inflict this condition on a foe, you gain the Grab 2 condition if you don't already have it.
If you are grabbing someone, you can release the grab as a free action, or you can maintain it by spending an action (no check required).
If you're grabbed, you can make a Combat Maneuver Check to reduce your condition one step. You have to fully remove the condition from yourself before you can gain control of the grapple and start inflicting the condition. (Again, maybe some feats could let you reverse the grab with a two-action maneuver.)
That's a rough idea.
But all the weirder rules from grappling aren't necessary. You grab a person, you hold restrict their movements, and then you pin them. Easy. You already have bull rush/drag as a maneuver,...
Already confirmed that they rolled CMB/CMD into skills, most now use athletics or acrobatics.
Starfinder made grappling 1000x simpler but more abstract/less realistic. You can only pin someone by exceeding the grapple roll target by 5+, for example, and grappling someone doesn't give you a unique list of combat options. There are no flowcharts, it takes up about a quarter of a page in the CRB.
I think chances are pretty good they'll just copy the basic Starfinder grappling rules (substituting an athletics check for the attack roll vs. KAC+8).