| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not evil in the least, it's self defense. Being mistaken isn't evil as the intent WASN'T to kill a good or neutral creature but protect himself and the community. If someone is disguised as a devil and get axed by a paladin, does the paladin fall? The 'good' goblin is 'disguised' as a murderous, psycho-pyromaniac and it's not the fault of anyone they didn't see through it.
So "lack of understanding" totally does impact the alignment of the action. If the person understands that demon and goblins are both naturally evil, why is killing one evil and the other not?
It's not self-defense unless the Goblin attacked him. It is absolutely an evil act to murder someone good because you feared and/or hated someone for their race.
No amount of "belief" or "understanding" makes a good person evil because they have green skin and pointy teeth.
Arguing ignorance in the court of law isn't a defense, it's not much of a defense against murdering the innocent anywhere.
Absolutely this. And as has been said before, anybody who attacks a goblin who is traveling amongst a group of well armed adventurers without provocation would have to be a raving lunatic. Anybody with half a brain would know that the goblin is with them and an attack on them is an attack on the whole group. So unless they either have a death wish or think they can handle a group of seasoned murder hobos then they are usually going to mind their own damn business.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I just don't get who these people brave/dumb enough to take on the party over one goblin are.
Again, being a core race is just branding, nothing else.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know who would be justified in taking a life for self-defense? The poor Goblin who was minding their own business when some maniac tried to kill them for daring to live.
They would be totally justified, and I would gladly come to their aid, because they did no wrong and were targeted due to their ancestry. Don't even need to go lethal, one whack to the noggin should subdue most low end NPC village types.
Also, if your "Paladin of Torag" tried to kill an innocent being due to race, my LG Monk would gladly turn your tinfoil armor and weapon to dust and send you packing. Equality for all, regardless of race and financial status/lack of nobility was always his championed goal. It's why he fought a kingdom of technologically advanced Elves convinced of their superiority over the "lesser races" alongside quite a potent team.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mewzard: I don't know what to say but I don't agree with the way you're looking at it. At all. And I don't think any amount of debate is going to change that.
How does your monk KNOW the goblin is innocent? Wouldn't the monk have NO idea? Why does the monk assume the goblin is different than every other goblin he's EVER known? How did they magically get that info? For all you know, that goblin killed the paladins brother...
As to targeted due to their ancestry, do you talk it out with demons and devils. If not you are being racist and committing hate crimes. It's clearly the murder of an innocent devil JUST minding it's own business... :P If so, you're the first person I know to do so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mewzard: I don't know what to say but I don't agree with the way you're looking at it. At all. And I don't think any amount of debate is going to change that.
How does your monk KNOW the goblin is innocent? Wouldn't the monk have NO idea? Why does the monk assume the goblin is different than every other goblin he's EVER known? How did they magically get that info? For all you know, that goblin killed the paladins brother...
As to targeted due to their ancestry, do you talk it out with demons and devils. If not you are being racist and committing hate crimes. It's clearly the murder of an innocent devil JUST minding it's own business... :P If so, you're the first person I know to do so.
That's a fair point, as I consider racism one of the absolute worst evils of humanity. That's not a point I'll ever change my view on.
Depends on what you see. Did I see how it started? Easy. Is the Goblin fleeing while the man is shouting racist language? Not hard to figure out. Also, I have a +37 to Sense Motive. A bit of conversation with both would let me figure things out. But, worse come to worse and the Human won't stop to talk, a simple grapple later, and he'll have to explain himself.
Also, my Monk has, in the entire campaign, only known good Goblins, so that's a terrible argument to make. He met his party and this Goblin village of good people as the first people he ever saw on the surface.
While it didn't come up in the campaign of the above example, I did have a Swashbuckler whose Diplomacy skills were ample enough to convince a group of demons to an arrangement that lead to them not harming anyone in the Kingdom we made. On the fly negotiations was my Swashbuckler's specialty. It's why I got the position of Diplomat for the Kingdom, because I was that good (it was more of a mutual arrangement that prevented them from receiving harsh punishment for failure, but let it never be said I don't try to talk people down whenever possible).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As to targeted due to their ancestry, do you talk it out with demons and devils. If not you are being racist and committing hate crimes. It's clearly the murder of an innocent devil JUST minding it's own business... :P If so, you're the first person I know to do so.
Why are people using demons and devils as a reference case for goblins? By this very self-same lore that people are dead-set on preserving, devils and demons are literally evil spirits manifested into immortal flesh; goblins are mortals the same way that half-orcs, dwarves, and humans are.
The only justifications so far I keep seeing are that (1) it’s contrary to established lore of having examples of non-evil murderous goblins, (2) it’s never been done before, and (3) problem players are going to abuse them. I can understand (1), but (2) and (3) I just can’t agree with. Having never done something before is not sufficient justification for never trying it (unless it’s actually going to hurt someone) and abusive players have been using the “i’m Role playing” excuse for 40 years now, back in the days of just playing elves, dwarves and hobbits (yes I said hobbits).
I think this discussion is pretty much going to be one of those where there’s just a core of people entrenched in the “never had it, never will” camp, and the “we be goblins!” camp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mewzard: I see where the disconnect is. You don't seem to be playing Golarion. There isn't a "Goblin village of good people" there. I'm arguing canon and you are talking homebrew so clearly we aren't on the same page. You game has shifted the expectation DRASTICALLY for the goblin. The gulf couldn't be any wider IMO. You've most likely met more good goblins in your game than exist in the entire world of Golarion.
We're really talking apples and oranges it seems. In the world I talking about, goblins have MUCH more in common with demon/devils than normal humanoids.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why are people using demons and devils as a reference case for goblins? By this very self-same lore that people are dead-set on preserving, devils and demons are literally evil spirits manifested into immortal flesh; goblins are mortals the same way that half-orcs, dwarves, and humans are.
It's pretty simple: the people of the world don't have access to the books. they have to go by the lore and the lore is both are pretty innately evil/bad/awful. When the populous has no concept of a good goblin, why are they seen differently? Both are always evil.
(1) it’s contrary to established lore of having examples of non-evil murderous goblins
IMO it's against lore for any appreciable number of them. IMO, they should be SUPER rare. The kind of thing that surprised people when they find out.
(2j it’s never been done before
It's done in pathfinder and it works fine: non-evil goblins are rare.
I think this discussion is pretty much going to be one of those where there’s just a core of people entrenched in the “never had it, never will” camp, and the “we be goblins!” camp.
For me, I fear the world getting infested with goblins to promote the new shiny race. I don't want a game where i can't swing a dead cat without hitting a few super-rare non-evil goblins. it's just too far a leap from how they are presented now in the lore. it's like the new race is devil and now they can be ANY alignment!!! And there are a few in every town!!!
Mewzard: I see where the disconnect is. You don't seem to be playing Golarion. There isn't a "Goblin village of good people" there. I'm arguing canon and you are talking homebrew so clearly we aren't on the same page. You game has shifted the expectation DRASTICALLY for the goblin. The gulf couldn't be any wider IMO. You've most likely met more good goblins in your game than exist in the entire world of Golarion.
We're really talking apples and oranges it seems. In the world I talking about, goblins have MUCH more in common with demon/devils than normal humanoids.
With the exception of the Hell's Rebels game I'm in, most games I end up playing are original campaigns.
But even if that weren't the case, we can look at said campaigns High Elves, which my Monk only ran into 1-2 that were good, the rest we saw were either Neutral and either "Following Orders" to subjugate and slaughter innocent people or sitting in their fancy city in the sky ignoring the horrible deeds their people committed, or was the evil King who wanted to become a god to replace their dead god or some of his evil subordinates.
Despite that, he didn't wish the end of their race because odds are there were more good people there.
The King though? The King had to go, he was just killing "lesser" people and collecting their souls to use in his ascension to godhood (had to free them because the first time we killed him, those collected souls just brought him back up).
Even in my Hell's Rebels game, I've aimed as much as humanly possible for convincing people towards more peaceful routes (which has gone well in my first game playing a Bard *long overdue*).
Of course, since half the group prefers the more peaceful route and the other half is a bit less restrained, ethics arguments have been had at times (mostly in character, we're all friends in the group). But that makes for a more realistic scenario, as even among good people, some push for more kind methods while others are more prone towards harsh punishment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With the exception of the Hell's Rebels game I'm in, most games I end up playing are original campaigns.
For context, I've played dozens of games with different players and DM's. In all of those I have NEVER met a good goblin and only one non-evil one, though it's CN was as close to evil as you could come. In those games I have never see anyone talk with a goblin outside the single PC. No, that's a lie. I did see a speak with dead on one that was just killed. Without a setup, it just doesn't come up in my experience. If you're into the 'talk to everything', cool, but it's not the norm from what I've seen.
I've never seen anyone I gamed with suggest that chopping down a goblin as evil. Not once. The only moral issue was baby ones but since we didn't have a paladin with us, we just dropped them off at the church of Torag where I'm sure the paladins theret knew what to do...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I found that a lot of people are running their guards with a modern spirit. Yes Golarion tends to be more open-minded than a few other settings but still... A lots of people live on the fringe of a wild world full of monsters. From the Linnorns kings to the Mwangwi you got secrets evil churches, not secret ones, dragons and giants, bandits, spies from others nations at war..... And then you are going to just watch a Goblin? A crazy evil cruel pyromaniac cannibal? Watch? They putted Isger on its knees,the village of your grandfather on fire and ate your babies and you are going to watch them? In a medieval setting where some people hit Varisians and Shoanti for sports and slavery is legal almost everywhere? In a world where evil cults to Lamashtu can summon powerful monsters? In a world where Human bandits are met with the death penalty in a lots of countries? WATCH the Goblins?
Come on. Two bolts in the head and that’s it.
And if the group disagree they better leave town or have saved it already otherwise they are outlaws and are killing the forces of order. I wonder what a good aligned adventurers or a Lawful one would think of that.
Nah you don’t watch them. You kill them, on spot, in almost all Golarion, except a few places where they can have a really small benefit of the doubt. And even there, given the chance, you could till kill them just to be sure.
For context, I've played dozens of games with different players and DM's. In all of those I have NEVER met a good goblin and only one non-evil one, though it's CN was as close to evil as you could come. In those games I have never see anyone talk with a goblin outside the single PC. No, that's a lie. I did see a speak with dead on one that was just killed. Without a setup, it just doesn't come up in my experience. If you're into the 'talk to everything', cool, but it's not the norm from what I've seen.
I've never seen anyone I gamed with suggest that chopping down a goblin as evil. Not once. The only moral issue was baby ones but since we didn't have a paladin with us, we just dropped them off at the church of Torag where I'm sure the paladins theret knew what to do...
In my experiences, it's been the opposite these past 15 or so years I've played some Pen and Paper RPG or another with various groups. Either we've had other enemies, or I've met them more as civilians.
That said, I also played Runescape that long and faced bad Goblins...then again, we also had the Cave Goblins, a good tribe that splintered off from the other Goblins and went underground to escape their God of War. Ended up being the race to invent electricity, great bunch of guys. Had to deal with a Pink-Hooded group called H.A.M. (Humans Against Monsters) that were the real evil.
And if the group disagree they better leave town or have saved it already otherwise they are outlaws and are killing the forces of order. I wonder what a good aligned adventurers or a Lawful one would think of that.
Nah you don’t watch them. You kill them, on spot, in almost all Golarion, except a few places where they can have a really small benefit of the doubt. And even there, given the chance, you could till kill them just to be sure.
But yeah, if society stands for prejudice, then clearly your adventuring party needs to make their end goal a massive push to end such prejudice. Rise in political power, make convincing arguments, help the good people among the negatively-viewed tribes rise in ranks as well, so there can be mutual peace on both ends.
Any adventuring party can go out and defeat the bad guys, it takes a passionate, caring, stubborn group to push for cultural changes and the betterment of race relations.
That's one amazing way to role.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mewzard I agree with you on your last part. And I like the idea of a regressive Human racist group, that seems like a good opponent for interesting adventures. But this will be just local. We would need a HUGE setting modification to justify that on a global scale.
And there is still the proble to sell it to the players. I spent like 20 hours of game presenting them as they are described in canon to my group. When I told them about Goblins as a core race they were like “it makes no sense they got nothing to do in the list of the most common races who are likely to become good adventurers”. This is why Antipaladin are not core.
Yes they belong in the game. Yes sometimes it can be a good idea for a character. But put them as an appendix on the Bestiary. Not the core rulebook of the game.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, literally the only thing core means is that it is recognizable enough in the real world to use for branding.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Absolutely this. And as has been said before, anybody who attacks a goblin who is traveling amongst a group of well armed adventurers without provocation would have to be a raving lunatic. Anybody with half a brain would know that the goblin is with them and an attack on them is an attack on the whole group. So unless they either have a death wish or think they can handle a group of seasoned murder hobos then they are usually going to mind their own damn business.It's not evil in the least, it's self defense. Being mistaken isn't evil as the intent WASN'T to kill a good or neutral creature but protect himself and the community. If someone is disguised as a devil and get axed by a paladin, does the paladin fall? The 'good' goblin is 'disguised' as a murderous, psycho-pyromaniac and it's not the fault of anyone they didn't see through it.
So "lack of understanding" totally does impact the alignment of the action. If the person understands that demon and goblins are both naturally evil, why is killing one evil and the other not?
It's not self-defense unless the Goblin attacked him. It is absolutely an evil act to murder someone good because you feared and/or hated someone for their race.
No amount of "belief" or "understanding" makes a good person evil because they have green skin and pointy teeth.
Arguing ignorance in the court of law isn't a defense, it's not much of a defense against murdering the innocent anywhere.
They don't have too.
1. Deny the group entry in the town or place because of the goblin.
2. The group denies and proceeds anyway.
3. Call for reinforces and proceed to escalate the problem.
4. The group resists and again appears to strong for the NPCS to deal with.
5. Escalate the problem further, the guard and town now proceed to pass on to the big city of the region a call to deal with this particular group who doesn't listen to their orders. Now actually capable NPCS with hunt the party, next step being they all receive bounties and are hunted by other adventures too.
It is a interesting concept for an aventure. Not really going to work on most games where the PCS actually want to work in said towns.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, literally the only thing core means is that it is recognizable enough in the real world to use for branding.
That isn't true by the games on words.
Sure people mostly play pretending it is, but the books actually call out that it isn't.
There is an actually explanation about feature races, which currently includes the goblins as well as a call for GM permission before ever playing any of them.
The core ones have other description as they are in a diferent section and they don't have the GM permission call.
Absolutely this. And as has been said before, anybody who attacks a goblin who is traveling amongst a group of well armed adventurers without provocation would have to be a raving lunatic. Anybody with half a brain would know that the goblin is with them and an attack on them is an attack on the whole group. So unless they either have a death wish or think they can handle a group of seasoned murder hobos then they are usually going to mind their own damn business.It's not evil in the least, it's self defense. Being mistaken isn't evil as the intent WASN'T to kill a good or neutral creature but protect himself and the community. If someone is disguised as a devil and get axed by a paladin, does the paladin fall? The 'good' goblin is 'disguised' as a murderous, psycho-pyromaniac and it's not the fault of anyone they didn't see through it.
So "lack of understanding" totally does impact the alignment of the action. If the person understands that demon and goblins are both naturally evil, why is killing one evil and the other not?
It's not self-defense unless the Goblin attacked him. It is absolutely an evil act to murder someone good because you feared and/or hated someone for their race.
No amount of "belief" or "understanding" makes a good person evil because they have green skin and pointy teeth.
Arguing ignorance in the court of law isn't a defense, it's not much of a defense against murdering the innocent anywhere.
They don't have too.
1. Deny the group entry in the town or place because of the goblin.
2. The group denies and proceeds anyway.
3. Call for reinforces and proceed to escalate the problem.
4. The group resists and again appears to strong for the NPCS to deal with.
5. Escalate the problem further, the guard and town now proceed to pass on to the big city of the region a call to deal with this particular group who doesn't listen to their orders. Now actually capable NPCS with...
That can absolutely work in most adventures. The town just needs to have a problem big enough to even ask this crazy group of goblin lovers for help. APs often have suggestions for plot hook intervention in the event that violence looks imminent or something is keeping the PCs from finding it on their own. Heck, some even prepare for the possibility of PCs getting thrown in jail.
If the town doesn't have a need for adventurers, that usually means it isn't actually relevant for the adventure.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Something being a law doesn't make it right.Recall what you said?Arguing ignorance in the court of law isn't a defense, it's not much of a defense against murdering the innocent anywhere.You are provably wrong.
Getting away with murder doesn't mean you were truly justified.In this case, it's EXACTLY what it means: that the court found the act justified.
Getting away with a hate crime based on race doesn't mean you're in the moral clear.LOL Hate crime now... WOW. No, it's doing the smart, sensible thing everyone you've know your ENTIRE life has done. And everyone before you. You're asking people to do calculus when they've never done algebra yet. The concept of a non-evil goblin is as foreign as a non-evil devil/demon and most people down't argue for 'talking it out' before attacking them.
Once again, if you murder an innocent Goblin out of fear because of their race, it's an evil act, regardless of whatever the local law says in said village.Objection. You can't commit murder unless it's unlawful and we've already determined that it's legal. If we're looking at pathfinder laws, how many places make it illegal to kill a goblin? None that I know.
Second objection: No proof of intent or premeditation and murder requires premeditation: The farmer never intended to kill an innocent creature and he isn't intending to commit an unlawful act.
What you have is justifiable homicide, as you can't even claim manslaughter, unlawful killings without malice or intent as it's not unlawful.
it's an evil actYou have yet to PROVE this. I see NOTHING to suggest it's evil. No malice, no intent, protecting himself and others... Seems non-evil to me. In no way is he KNOWINGLY killing an innocent.
Let me put this up again:
LG Paladins of Torag code [Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy...
Attacking someone out of the blue when they're just sitting there minding their own business is pretty damn malicious. He may not have 'intended' to kill an innocent, but he did intentionally take that risk when he attacked someone who was minding their own business.
The Paladin Code of Torag says, "Mess with those I have sworn to protect and I will *end* you." That is not the same as a license for genocide. Now might a Paladin of Torag go looking for a reason to go after a goblin they see just idly wandering around town? Sure, maybe. But if they just attack them in the street for the crime of being a goblin, they have certainly *not* brought honor to Torag, and they're going to fall.
The court can find the act justified. That does not mean the act *was* justified. An Asmodean court would probably find you were perfectly justified in sacrificing all those virgins, after all.
Yes, I hold Golarion to modern standards of morality. Because Paizo has made it clear that's what *they* are doing. Golarion is entirely without homophobia or transphobia; sexism is exceedingly rare, and seen as an evil trait, or at least wildly outdated where it does occur. So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game. Doubly so when it's with reference to RL laws used to murder minorities.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
They don't have too.1. Deny the group entry in the town or place because of the goblin.
2. The group denies and proceeds anyway.
3. Call for reinforces and proceed to escalate the problem.
4. The group resists and again appears to strong for the NPCS to deal with.
5. Escalate the problem further, the guard and town now proceed to pass on to the big city of the region a call to deal with this particular group who doesn't listen to their orders. Now actually capable NPCS with...
What you are describing is the interaction of an awful table.
1. The GM sees that one of the players is a Goblin, decided to punish that player and the group by impeding their progress instead of having an NPC work something out with them. Dick move one.
2. The players, having had enough of the GM’s passive aggressive BS ignore the wishes of the townspeople and instead willingly become an invading force. Dick move two, electric boogaloo.
3. Instead of deescalating the situation by creating a situation that shows the goblin is not a threat or having an NPC work out a deal with the PCs, the GM downs another bag of Doritos in one Pelican gulp and raises threat level to Dreamsicle Orange.
4. The players have now decided that their greasy GM is not worth the respect they had once shown, and take it upon themselves to spit in his face by destroying his creation and going full bandit mode.
5. The GM realizes if his only remaining power play is to throw the entire world at the players, they have become enemies of the state and he must now live with the fact that all of the things he creates eventually destroy those he thought he loved and loved him.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game.
You know, it's funny I see some people bring this up over the last week or so.
So in response just One question, and I'm not trying to have a "Gotcha" moment. But..., how do Hobgoblins work in your games then?
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, I hold Golarion to modern standards of morality. Because Paizo has made it clear that's what *they* are doing. Golarion is entirely without homophobia or transphobia; sexism is exceedingly rare, and seen as an evil trait, or at least wildly outdated where it does occur. So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game. Doubly so when it's with reference to RL laws used to murder minorities.
Oh man, I wish no transphobia/homophobia was a modern thing. Maybe in another century or so. Probably longer if you consider countries outside of the western world.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As to targeted due to their ancestry, do you talk it out with demons and devils. If not you are being racist and committing hate crimes. It's clearly the murder of an innocent devil JUST minding it's own business... :P If so, you're the first person I know to do so.
Very heavily on the side of not murdering on sight here: Yes.
I know that my group have never attacked someone who was just standing around minding their own business and not endangering or working on endangering people. Everyone is given a chance to diplomacize. Every demon is given a chance to surrender and be treated fairly. Every devil, negotiated with, talked into simple non-interference deals if possible. Every goblin is presented with alternative outlets for their violence and pyromania.
If we suspect danger or deception (and with fiends, that suspicion is always there), then we watch carefully, and stay ready to respond.
Frankly, killing someone pre-emptively based on an assumption that you know what they're going to do just feels kinda uncomfortable to me. Like that's not a thing good people do (at least not without falling down to Questionable Neutral alignment).
So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game.You know, it's funny I see some people bring this up over the last week or so.
So in response just One question, and I'm not trying to have a "Gotcha" moment. But..., how do Hobgoblins work in your games then?
Pretty well?
Ironfang aside, like every hobgoblin I've ever seen in a game, ever, has been a mercenary type who we talked to, maybe shared a meal or camp with, and then wished him well as he continued on his merry way. Heck, even when they're mercenary types employed by our enemies, they're typically rather willing to talk.
Willing to back off? Not so much. But they've always been clever enough to at least realize that a fight might cost them resources and soldiers, whereas making some sort of deal might let them do their job without losing anyone.
(Honestly, they're wonderful antagonists to work with, because they tend to be reasonable.)
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Preface
I have been sitting here, waiting for days since the Goblin post came out. And this entire forum is utterly rife with these pro and anti Goblin Core threads. I am not a Pro Goblin Advocate, Nor an Anti-Goblin Racist. What I am is a person who Hates this line of discourse taking up Everything, and a Person Who prefers Choices be Added rather than Removed (as I've tended to show in Paladin Arguments, btw I have Never played a Paladin, nor Will I Ever play one, but don't tell HG Walsh that).
NOW from what I've been seeing of all of this, Paizo is Apparently trying to DOWNPLAY the Psychopathic parts of the Goblin Depiction, and trying to UPPLAY the more comical side of them, the Friendlier side of them. Probably because of One and only One thing, they see Goblins as an Iconic Pathfinder Race, and they want to make them more Marketable, more Full of Personality and less Psychopathy. Keep in Mind that Pathfinder is getting beaten out by 5e D&D, which puts out Much Less Content, that's one of the reasons that they're making 2e in the first place(Not the only one, but surely a good one). And to that end, Core Goblins seems like a very good move, all the other playable races are Generic, but Core Goblins? That's something Iconic.
NOW I Can Honestly see where the Anti-Goblin Core people are coming from, they don't like that the Goblins are being added to this special group of Always Allowed character races, but here's the thing, IF Paizo can actually Balance Future Races after Core so that those Races are always allowable as playable as well(or Make it so that Goblins are a Core Boon Race in PFS), then there's Honestly No Problem at all. This is a situation just like Aasimar and Tieflings were allowable and currently Kitsune (and I can't remember what other race is Currently Legal to Just make without boon in PFS, think there's one) Then what exactly would be your Definition of Core? Because Obviously there's everything allowed everywhere, except Homegames, where you can Disallow whoever or whatever you want. The main problem with Core Races currently is that they are the BLANDEST of the BLAND, which is Obviously something they're trying to fix with the new Ancestry system. Hell if they allowed more races at any given time, how many of the Current Core Races do you think you'd see?
Now if your problem is that Goblins are Disruptive, I believe as MANY People have pointed out, that its the Player that's disruptive, Not the Race. If its that certain Mob(I played WoW before I ever touched a Tabletop RPG), so I like the term Mob) Goblins like to do these horrible things and raid towns, if you want to show that off you still can, just like there are Human Bandits that like to hold people up at sword point on highways, or Human Slavers that like to enslave entire villages. HELL this is the Very Reason I hate Humans, because Humans have an EXTREMELY High Propensity for Well Informed, Sophisticated Evil... Both in Every Game I've Ever seen, and in the Real World. Just because Humans don't like eating Human babies, because they find it disturbing (don't see Goblins eating Goblin Babies) doesn't mean they don't Eat Babies (Lamb, Veal, Baby Pigs etc.) and You Yourself must admit you find it Perfectly Acceptable, unless you're a Vegetarian.
As for Pyromania, AGAIN AS OTHER People have Pointed Out, Fireblooded Sorcerers, Clerics of Asmodeus, Alchemists(from what I hear the Iconic Alchemist will be a Goblin), Evocation Wizards, Fire Kineticists, Tieflings and Ifrit are All Prime Examples of Pyromaniacs.
Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'm Leaving, because again I HATE THE PREVALENCE OF THESE THREADS...........................
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game.You know, it's funny I see some people bring this up over the last week or so.
So in response just One question, and I'm not trying to have a "Gotcha" moment. But..., how do Hobgoblins work in your games then?
When hobgoblins are actually a part of society, mixing with civilization, their militaristic nature has them form unions, HOAs, and other organizations in order to carve out their own hold in society and gain an advantage against the nobles.
Orcs, on the other hand, have a very aggressive nature. And therefore, they go into sales following the Path of the Aggressive Salesman. "Your sword is puny and weak, your armor thin and frail. They are no match for our mighty weapons, forged by the strength of orcs. How many can I pack up for you today? Two, or three?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game.You know, it's funny I see some people bring this up over the last week or so.
So in response just One question, and I'm not trying to have a "Gotcha" moment. But..., how do Hobgoblins work in your games then?
...Same as any other 'monster'? Sometimes they're an organized invading force that the PCs are at war with. Sometimes they're pragmatic mercenaries, who my even be allied with the PCs depending on circumstances. Sometimes, they're just another citizen. When the PCs are fighting hobgoblins, it's not because 'There is a Hobgoblin, it's evil, kill it.' It's because 'These Hobgoblins are invading us', or 'these hobgoblinsare conducting slave raids', or 'These hobgoblins are the army of the Big Bad we are striving to stop.'
Considering that Hobgoblins are actually fairly well integrated into Molthune society, at least, I'm not even sure why they'd be your particular counterexample?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dracula made a great point. It’s important to note that this game is not being developed in a vacuum. I think something also important to note is that all of the posters on this forum are a minority of Pathfinder players. Out of these people, those opposing the addition of goblins are a minority. Out of the players of the play test, we’ll be a bigger chunk but still a minority of all the people involved. The vast majority of players won’t care. The majority of players of the play test won’t care. These people will see the goblin in there and either shrug or get excited and start rolling. The players who care enough about the specifics of the lore or what core races are supposed to be limited to are the ones on this forum passionate enough to take the time to create profiles and comment. That is such a small percentage of who will be buying these books. Casual players who just homebrew their settings won’t be upset goblins are core. New players who have never played a TTRPG will not be upset goblins are in core. Players coming over from 5th Edition won’t care that Goblins are in core (they may be upset about a lack of Dragonborn though). All these demographics that Paizo is targeting are not on these forums. We who are make up a small percentage of the overall player base, and those of us who oppose the inclusion of Goblins for lore reasons, for “core” purity reasons, or for a desire to prevent problem players from having a boner induced seizure when they see all the potential that I supposedly baked into the race are more than likely not going to have the collective buying power to really influence a decision this big that has already been made. So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them. But the rest of us are here to have fun, so don’t spoil it if we are at the same table.
|
So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them.
As someone who is very nearly been won over to the pro Goblin camp, I have to stop and call out that talking point wherever I see it. If you don't like it don't X it is normally ludicrous thought stopping cliche that, if accepted as valid, would mean there could be no valid criticism of any piece of media ever, but it's especially non-applicable when people are arguing that the inclusion of goblins is going to directly affect them by encouraging bad behavior in others and breaking their verisimilitude.
As I said, I've been persuaded that paizo has the ability to provide adequate explanation to render the latter premise false, and that, while I still think there will be an uptick in bad behavior, most players simply wouldn't act that way regardless and those who are newly willing to in the presence of goblins are just outing themselves as people who never respected the group as a whole. However, the fallaciousness of that particular infuriating arguments deserves to be called out wherever it pops up.
All that said, I'm fine with racism in a fantasy world, if that's how you want to play. Your game, your rules. But justifying racism in a fantasy world by saying that's how it works in the real world really shouldn't happen.This is fair enough, but not really relevant to the point I was making. For the record.
Sorry, I wasn't being clear. This was more directed toward the graystone post that started this conversation.
So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them.As someone who is very nearly been won over to the pro Goblin camp, I have to stop and call out that talking point wherever I see it. If you don't like it don't X it is normally ludicrous thought stopping cliche that, if accepted as valid, would mean there could be no valid criticism of any piece of media ever, but it's especially non-applicable when people are arguing that the inclusion of goblins is going to directly affect them by encouraging bad behavior in others and breaking their verisimilitude.
As I said, I've been persuaded that paizo has the ability to provide adequate explanation to render the latter premise false, and that, while I still think there will be an uptick in bad behavior, most players simply wouldn't act that way regardless and those who are newly willing to in the presence of goblins are just outing themselves as people who never respected the group as a whole. However, the fallaciousness of that particular infuriating arguments deserves to be called out wherever it pops up.
I think you've got me convinced on this point, since this is going to be Core and not in a bestiary. It's one thing to disallow the Leadership feat, but another to ban a Core ancestry. I still think it can be done, but not nearly as easily as an ancestry from a bestiary. Or even a major hard cover that's not the CRB.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
All that said, I'm fine with racism in a fantasy world, if that's how you want to play. Your game, your rules. But justifying racism in a fantasy world by saying that's how it works in the real world really shouldn't happen.This is fair enough, but not really relevant to the point I was making. For the record.Sorry, I wasn't being clear. This was more directed toward the graystone post that started this conversation.
I think you've got me convinced on this point, since this is going to be Core and not in a bestiary. It's one thing to disallow the Leadership feat, but another to ban a Core ancestry. I still think it can be done, but not nearly as easily as an ancestry from a bestiary. Or even a major hard cover that's not the CRB.So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them.As someone who is very nearly been won over to the pro Goblin camp, I have to stop and call out that talking point wherever I see it. If you don't like it don't X it is normally ludicrous thought stopping cliche that, if accepted as valid, would mean there could be no valid criticism of any piece of media ever, but it's especially non-applicable when people are arguing that the inclusion of goblins is going to directly affect them by encouraging bad behavior in others and breaking their verisimilitude.
As I said, I've been persuaded that paizo has the ability to provide adequate explanation to render the latter premise false, and that, while I still think there will be an uptick in bad behavior, most players simply wouldn't act that way regardless and those who are newly willing to in the presence of goblins are just outing themselves as people who never respected the group as a whole. However, the fallaciousness of that particular infuriating arguments deserves to be called out wherever it pops up.
Yay! Minds are changing! All of this Goblin discussion is accomplishing things!
So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game.You know, it's funny I see some people bring this up over the last week or so.
So in response just One question, and I'm not trying to have a "Gotcha" moment. But..., how do Hobgoblins work in your games then?
...Same as any other 'monster'? Sometimes they're an organized invading force that the PCs are at war with. Sometimes they're pragmatic mercenaries, who my even be allied with the PCs depending on circumstances. Sometimes, they're just another citizen. When the PCs are fighting hobgoblins, it's not because 'There is a Hobgoblin, it's evil, kill it.' It's because 'These Hobgoblins are invading us', or 'these hobgoblinsare conducting slave raids', or 'These hobgoblins are the army of the Big Bad we are striving to stop.'
Considering that Hobgoblins are actually fairly well integrated into Molthune society, at least, I'm not even sure why they'd be your particular counterexample?
The fact Molthund seem to not like them little more than expendable troops, the hobgoblins dislike being used as such, hobgoblins seem to actually dislike anyone not hobgoblin that can't help with their aims and then stab you in the back, hobgoblins hate magic to the point of..., well there's probably a reason or two why we don't see Hobgoblin Sorcerers.
Mind you this is what I've gathered after reading the AP they are in and could just be that group of them(though why Paizo seems to feel the need to describe the bad guys or race or culture in that much bloody detail in each book). THiugh I do find it interesting to see how evil does survive(food, safety, etc)
Perhaps "Race is evil" some are arguing is probably closer to "culture is evil". Or in some cases "government is evil".
I mean if you guys and gals want, we can probably go through a list of Evil races(Outsiders are kinda made of Evil, Good, Law, Chaos so leave them out till later) and compare how they are either used or could be used besides as replacement to Evil human. Oh and speaking of humans, I see no reason for them to have a monopoly on the hate and fear due to race. Pretty sure there's a race or two that hates humans or hates anything not themselves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So no, I'm simply not here for justified racism in game.You know, it's funny I see some people bring this up over the last week or so.
So in response just One question, and I'm not trying to have a "Gotcha" moment. But..., how do Hobgoblins work in your games then?
...Same as any other 'monster'? Sometimes they're an organized invading force that the PCs are at war with. Sometimes they're pragmatic mercenaries, who my even be allied with the PCs depending on circumstances. Sometimes, they're just another citizen. When the PCs are fighting hobgoblins, it's not because 'There is a Hobgoblin, it's evil, kill it.' It's because 'These Hobgoblins are invading us', or 'these hobgoblinsare conducting slave raids', or 'These hobgoblins are the army of the Big Bad we are striving to stop.'
Considering that Hobgoblins are actually fairly well integrated into Molthune society, at least, I'm not even sure why they'd be your particular counterexample?
The fact Molthund seem to not like them little more than expendable troops, the hobgoblins dislike being used as such, hobgoblins seem to actually dislike anyone not hobgoblin that can't help with their aims and then stab you in the back, hobgoblins hate magic to the point of..., well there's probably a reason or two why we don't see Hobgoblin Sorcerers.
Mind you this is what I've gathered after reading the AP they are in and could just be that group of them(though why Paizo seems to feel the need to describe the bad guys or race or culture in that much bloody detail in each book). THiugh I do find it interesting to see how evil does survive(food, safety, etc)
Perhaps "Race is evil" some are arguing is probably closer to "culture is evil". Or in some cases "government is evil".
I mean if you guys and gals want, we can probably go through a list of Evil races(Outsiders are kinda made of Evil, Good, Law, Chaos so leave them out till later) and compare how they are either...
I think Paizo gets into that level of detail for bad guy culture and motivation because contrary to a lot of the ideas put forward here they actually want our fantasy murder to be justified by something other than "this species is evil."
And because frankly it is more interesting. Evil for the sake of evil is usually nonsense, or at least not very interesting. The Hobgoblins in Ironfang are committing atrocities, but they are doing it to carve out a nation where the monsters can live freely. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than making your main villain just another sadist.
So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them.As someone who is very nearly been won over to the pro Goblin camp, I have to stop and call out that talking point wherever I see it. If you don't like it don't X it is normally ludicrous thought stopping cliche that, if accepted as valid, would mean there could be no valid criticism of any piece of media ever, but it's especially non-applicable when people are arguing that the inclusion of goblins is going to directly affect them by encouraging bad behavior in others and breaking their verisimilitude.
As I said, I've been persuaded that paizo has the ability to provide adequate explanation to render the latter premise false, and that, while I still think there will be an uptick in bad behavior, most players simply wouldn't act that way regardless and those who are newly willing to in the presence of goblins are just outing themselves as people who never respected the group as a whole. However, the fallaciousness of that particular infuriating arguments deserves to be called out wherever it pops up.
You are not wrong, but I don’t think it is a universal truth that that cliche is fallacious. There are definitely times that it is a valid, although dismissive, retort. Don’t like pineapples on pizza? Don’t order them. Don’t like same-sex marriage? Don’t get into one. When something so evidently does not negatively impact the person arguing against it, it just validates their stance to do anything but respond in such a manner as to not take their concern seriously.
Admittedly, that was how I viewed pretty much all complaints against goblins as a core race. I still have yet to be convinced it will have any negative impact on the game outside of a few people who were going to do something awful like rolling a nightmare character as soon as being given an easier path to it, but also realize that dismissing the concerns on such a theoretical debate is not going to change the minds of people who are concerned.
So, in the context that it has been proven by playtest and actual release that goblins as a core race have not ruined PFS or anybody’s home game that doesn’t have edgelord jerks at their table, if you still do not like Goblins being in the game don’t play one and don’t make it difficult for the players who do like them.
And because frankly it is more interesting. Evil for the sake of evil is usually nonsense, or at least not very interesting. The Hobgoblins in Ironfang are committing atrocities, but they are doing it to carve out a nation where the monsters can live freely. It's a heck of a lot more interesting than making your main villain just another sadist.
Now this I do actually agree with. Evil for Evil is Saturday morning Cartoon logic. Mind you if that's all you want, I'm not going to say it's a bad way to play. Again "Kick door, kill, loot" can be fun in the right mind set.
|
|
So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them.As someone who is very nearly been won over to the pro Goblin camp, I have to stop and call out that talking point wherever I see it. If you don't like it don't X it is normally ludicrous thought stopping cliche that, if accepted as valid, would mean there could be no valid criticism of any piece of media ever, but it's especially non-applicable when people are arguing that the inclusion of goblins is going to directly affect them by encouraging bad behavior in others and breaking their verisimilitude.
As I said, I've been persuaded that paizo has the ability to provide adequate explanation to render the latter premise false, and that, while I still think there will be an uptick in bad behavior, most players simply wouldn't act that way regardless and those who are newly willing to in the presence of goblins are just outing themselves as people who never respected the group as a whole. However, the fallaciousness of that particular infuriating arguments deserves to be called out wherever it pops up.
You are not wrong, but I don’t think it is a universal truth that that cliche is fallacious. There are definitely times that it is a valid, although dismissive, retort. Don’t like pineapples on pizza? Don’t order them. Don’t like same-sex marriage? Don’t get into one. When something so evidently does not negatively impact the person arguing against it, it just validates their stance to do anything but respond in such a manner as to not take their concern seriously.
Admittedly, that was how I viewed pretty much all complaints against goblins as a core race. I still have yet to be convinced it will have any negative impact on the game outside of a few people who were going to do something awful like rolling a nightmare character as soon as being given an easier path to it, but also realize that dismissing the concerns on such a theoretical debate is not going to change the minds of people who...
People who really just don't personally want those things will generally just not get them. I don't think there's actually anyone who earnestly believes that pineapples on Pizza shouldn't be allowed as a whole. However, vegans might have moral objections to the concept of pizza as a whole, and their arguments would not rest on Personal Taste and could not be validly refuted by that cliche. Likewise, distasteful and invalid as their actual arguments are, no homophobe argues against gay marriage on the basis that they personally wouldn't enjoy such an arrangement.
Likewise for goblins, no one argues that they personally don't want to play a goblin therefore they shouldn't be in the game. I started this thread to argue that goblins shouldn't be in core, and I both was and am intent on playing one even as I typed the original post. By contrast, I have absolutely no intention of ever playing a dwarf, and yet would never make an argument that they shouldn't be in the core rulebook because their presence doesn't affect anyone who doesn't play one. Goblins have a very strong ethos, and even from a standpoint of no longer opposing their inclusion, I still can't deny that their presence will affect anyone who is around a goblin.
...So if you don’t like goblins, don’t play them.As someone who is very nearly been won over to the pro Goblin camp, I have to stop and call out that talking point wherever I see it. If you don't like it don't X it is normally ludicrous thought stopping cliche that, if accepted as valid, would mean there could be no valid criticism of any piece of media ever, but it's especially non-applicable when people are arguing that the inclusion of goblins is going to directly affect them by encouraging bad behavior in others and breaking their verisimilitude.
As I said, I've been persuaded that paizo has the ability to provide adequate explanation to render the latter premise false, and that, while I still think there will be an uptick in bad behavior, most players simply wouldn't act that way regardless and those who are newly willing to in the presence of goblins are just outing themselves as people who never respected the group as a whole. However, the fallaciousness of that particular infuriating arguments deserves to be called out wherever it pops up.
You are not wrong, but I don’t think it is a universal truth that that cliche is fallacious. There are definitely times that it is a valid, although dismissive, retort. Don’t like pineapples on pizza? Don’t order them. Don’t like same-sex marriage? Don’t get into one. When something so evidently does not negatively impact the person arguing against it, it just validates their stance to do anything but respond in such a manner as to not take their concern seriously.
Admittedly, that was how I viewed pretty much all complaints against goblins as a core race. I still have yet to be convinced it will have any negative impact on the game outside of a few people who were going to do something awful like rolling a nightmare character as soon as being given an easier path to it, but also realize that dismissing the concerns on such a theoretical debate is not going to
I broke my jaw a few years ago, and had it wired shut for 6 weeks. After having a pineapple smoothie (liquid diet), a piece of pineapple got stuck in my teeth. Since pineapple has enzymes that break down proteins, the piece of pineapple was essentially digesting my mouth from the inside.... for about 4 weeks. I firmly believe all pineapple plants should be incinerated.
But, I suppose, if people like pineapples on their pizza, that's good too ;)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
1. Problem players will be problem players, no matter what options there are or aren't. "It's what my character would do" is shorthand for 'you made the wrong character for this game'. This is why you have a 'session zero' before any dice or character sheets are touched, to make sure you don't have a problem character, or player, on your hands.
2. If you don't like 'em in your game, don't allow 'em. Lots of people seem to be looking forward to the little buggers, no reason your likes should impede theirs. You don't like the idea, then ban 'em, or hell, go hog-wild rock the casbah and change the lore so goblins AREN'T illiterate pyromaniacs in your game world.
3. Goblins, like all sentient beings, are individuals, no some hive-mind genetic experiment. If you don't demand/expect all elves to be tree-hugging hippies, dwarves to be drunken craftsmen, or whatever, then expecting all goblins to be insane pyros is just hypocritical.