So, we know that in PF2 Goblins are a player race. We also know that something happens to make this more palatable than it currently is for those opposed, but we (and potentially paizo) don't know what. So, what changes might occur in 10-12 years to completely alter their role in society?
EDIT:Curiosity was prompted by this post
3. There is more to the shift in goblins that I can honestly talk about here. Some of it would be a spoiler for things that are still in the planning phases, making them way to premature to talk about. Even if I could, I would not want to ruin the reveals.
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The blog explains this. There are a bunch of exceptions who have secretly been walking around who we just happen to have never met before this decision was made. I've already seen better answers than that tossed around the community, but, and this is actually kind of understandable, paizo isn't going to be going with anything like that.
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We've had goblin PCs since 2010. Nothing is changing!!
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We've had goblin PCs since 2010. Nothing is changing!!
The changes that we go from Goblin Adventures existing, to realistically having to Encompass something like 10% of all adventures in order for the picture we're going to see across games to make any sense.
I'm willing to bet that there will be more Goblin PCS amongst registered Pathfinder Society characters then there will be gnomes. That implies that there are now more Goblin Pathfinder agents than there are gnomish ones. You may well say that that's not supposed to be true in universe and that we just happen to be following all of the ones that exist, but that is going to break down, because if every Goblin PC that is introduced is supposed to be in the same Canon, we're going to have to deal with the fact that there are thousands of them, when the realistic number would be well under a dozen.
What if the whole "good guy goblin" thing is Paizo's way of explaining the Gap in Starfinder lore? Hear me out, the whole thing is part of the BBEG (Big Bad Evil Goblin)'s plan to destroy all knowledge and writing on Golarian. Obviously that's a big task, and one that would be borderline impossible with a direct approach. So instead, he decided to brainwash goblins into sleeper agents, to infiltrate the dirty readers society, get in their good graces, start working in their libraries. All building up to the grand moment he activates the agents to destroy EVERYTHING!
Nope, the Gap was actually Groetus coming.
Also, all differences between PF1 and PF2 are due to Groetus coming.
Groetus is just tricky - he can create the next universe to look nearly identical to the old one, and creates people with intact memories who don't know they've just been created mere seconds ago.
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We've had goblin PCs since 2010. Nothing is changing!!The changes that we go from Goblin Adventures existing, to realistically having to Encompass something like 10% of all adventures in order for the picture we're going to see across games to make any sense.
I'm willing to bet that there will be more Goblin PCS amongst registered Pathfinder Society characters then there will be gnomes. That implies that there are now more Goblin Pathfinder agents than there are gnomish ones. You may well say that that's not supposed to be true in universe and that we just happen to be following all of the ones that exist, but that is going to break down, because if every Goblin PC that is introduced is supposed to be in the same Canon, we're going to have to deal with the fact that there are thousands of them, when the realistic number would be well under a dozen.
3.2% of PCs are gnomes, compared to 1.4% of PCs that are goblins. It won't be that big of a change if goblins become more common.
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3.2% of PCs are gnomes, compared to 1.4% of PCs that are goblins. It won't be that big of a change if goblins become more common.We've had goblin PCs since 2010. Nothing is changing!!The changes that we go from Goblin Adventures existing, to realistically having to Encompass something like 10% of all adventures in order for the picture we're going to see across games to make any sense.
I'm willing to bet that there will be more Goblin PCS amongst registered Pathfinder Society characters then there will be gnomes. That implies that there are now more Goblin Pathfinder agents than there are gnomish ones. You may well say that that's not supposed to be true in universe and that we just happen to be following all of the ones that exist, but that is going to break down, because if every Goblin PC that is introduced is supposed to be in the same Canon, we're going to have to deal with the fact that there are thousands of them, when the realistic number would be well under a dozen.
Isn't that just overall, not in PFS specifically? Given the fact that being a Goblin in PFS was essentially impossible, I'd wager the numbers will completely skyrocket if and when the Goblin becomes a Core race, useable by default.
As for the topic, we'll see with the full playtest writeup, but the blog did seem to imply there was no big change. There's goblin adventurers, who are exceptions, and then the rest of the goblins, still being Evil Goblins.
Probably should have included this post in the OP. Sorry about that.
3. There is more to the shift in goblins that I can honestly talk about here. Some of it would be a spoiler for things that are still in the planning phases, making them way to premature to talk about. Even if I could, I would not want to ruin the reveals.
Which implies that something has changed, and prompted my curiosity.
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My thought is the big 'thing' at the end of the last AP involves a contingent of goblins helping defend against a greater evil and thus getting a social boost. Maybe its about fighting the horsemen of the Apocalypse and goblin horse-chopping expertise is needed
Doesn't Return of the Runelords involve "time travel" in some shape, way, or form? It's long been the case that "time travel shenanigans" is the easiest way to enact any kind of retroactive continuity.
Perhaps our heroes travel thousands of years in the past and convince one tribe of goblins that reading is great, and doesn't steal your soul at all, and this echoes through the ages.
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As I've noted in a few threads, I'd theorize the following as part of the explanation:
I'm on board with this as long as it's justified in-setting.
That said, with 12 years between 2E's starting timeline and that of RotRL (which includes a 'goblin orphan' issue), the APs officially having occurred, and goblin lifespans (they come of age at 13 to 18, mostly), a very specific solution immediately occurs:
There's a whole tribe's worth of better socialized goblins just coming of age somewhere in the vicinity of Sandpoint in Varisia.
That's actually enough of a justification for me all on its own, as long as its made explicit.
This could easily be combined with, say, a major heroic Goblin NPC (possibly one of these children) being an important figure in Return of the Runelords.
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Assuming no changes to their aging stats, goblins would be the shortest lived and fastest maturing of the core races. From established lore, they tend to have big families, and most goblins die violently before they can reproduce. And typical goblin behavior is quite likely to provoke other races into killing them.
What we have here is evolution in action. Goblins who act like maniacs are more likely to die young, while those who either avoid contact with other races or take a saner approach to dealing with them are more likely to survive and pass on their genes.
This is exactly what happened to Larry Niven's kzin over the course of several centuries of warring with humans -- eventually, the only ones left were the ones who knew better than to start wars with humans. Such a process should take less time with goblins.
Doesn't Return of the Runelords involve "time travel" in some shape, way, or form? It's long been the case that "time travel shenanigans" is the easiest way to enact any kind of retroactive continuity.
Perhaps our heroes travel thousands of years in the past and convince one tribe of goblins that reading is great, and doesn't steal your soul at all, and this echoes through the ages.
Ugh! Please no. Time travel retcons are the worst thing ever.
And I just don't like huge change that makes things different overnight either. Like "Oh, a goblin was in a party that saved the world, so we like them all now." I'd much prefer if it was more that we're introduced to some groups of non-hostile goblins that have been around for a while, just concentrated in some out of the way places and haven't been mentioned yet. And possibly some event has now shined a spotlight on them.
Maybe some event that causes a migration of civilized goblins from, say Casmaron or the Mowangi Epanse or some dense forest. That could be an acceptable middle-ground. Maybe a new Spawn of Rovagug pops out of the pit and the gobos flee westward. Or the goblin slaves of the BBEG are freed and try to find a place for themselves.
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Doesn't Return of the Runelords involve "time travel" in some shape, way, or form? It's long been the case that "time travel shenanigans" is the easiest way to enact any kind of retroactive continuity.
Perhaps our heroes travel thousands of years in the past and convince one tribe of goblins that reading is great, and doesn't steal your soul at all, and this echoes through the ages.
Ugh! Please no. Time travel retcons are the worst thing ever.
And I just don't like huge change that makes things different overnight either. Like "Oh, a goblin was in a party that saved the world, so we like them all now." I'd much prefer if it was more that we're introduced to some groups of non-hostile goblins that have been around for a while, just concentrated in some out of the way places and haven't been mentioned yet. And possibly some event has now shined a spotlight on them.
Maybe some event that causes a migration of civilized goblins from, say Casmaron or the Mowangi Epanse or some dense forest. That could be an acceptable middle-ground. Maybe a new Spawn of Rovagug pops out of the pit and the gobos flee westward. Or the goblin slaves of the BBEG are freed and try to find a place for themselves.
My bet is time traveling space goblins from starfinder that use escape pods from their exploding junk ship to land all over the planet. One day it's just raining trash and goblins... :P
I just had a worse thought than the obliteration of all knowledge on Golarian. Half-goblins.
kender-goblins! An unholy mixture that takes the worst traits from each race: kind of like space herpes but less likable. ;)
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I just had a worse thought than the obliteration of all knowledge on Golarian. Half-goblins.kender-goblins! An unholy mixture that takes the worst traits from each race: kind of like space herpes but less likable. ;)
The moment Kender appeared on Golarion, let alone Kender-Goblins, all the gods would immediately agree to give Rovagug a day pass and point it straight at the nearest Kender settlement.
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I just had a worse thought than the obliteration of all knowledge on Golarian. Half-goblins.
Longshanks with big swordsies have been making half-goblins for longer than me be alive. Splitting headache not a joke for many goblins' noggins.
The moment Kender appeared on Golarion, let alone Kender-Goblins, all the gods would immediately agree to give Rovagug a day pass and point it straight at the nearest Kender settlement.I just had a worse thought than the obliteration of all knowledge on Golarian. Half-goblins.kender-goblins! An unholy mixture that takes the worst traits from each race: kind of like space herpes but less likable. ;)
LOL I DO agree that kender anything is just wrong on a universal level.
Though I could get behind half goblins. The hard part if cutting them JUST right to get halves and not some other percentage. ;)
As a related question, what gods would an adventuring goblin conceivably worship? Maybe they wouldn't go full celestial realms with their new devotion, but there are certainly a bunch of other acceptable deities for goblins to discover in their new lives that aren't the Mother of Monsters and the Hero Gods.
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Goblins are the worst of them and have a soft license, granted by their fluff, to be the worst little s&%~heads imaginable. And Kender are famously and rightly despised.
But in my experience, Small races in general tend to attract people who want to play "quirky" "tricksters" who touch everything, try to steal everything, get smart-alecky with people they shouldn't, and just behave recklessly in general, out of refusal to take the game as seriously as a sane character in that situation would. And I'm the bad guy because I can't "lighten up" and "live a little" when my Paladin is telling them not to steal, not to f#@* with the mayor, and not to read from that grimoire that unleashed demons the last time someone read from it. I doubt the addition of goblins can make it much worse considering what I've seen from bog-standard halfling rogues and gnome illusionists.
True, that, Athaleon! Whether halflings, gnomes or shadier types like ratfolk or now goblins, the small races have always been quirky at best.
The real answer is that goblin characters can be explained away by reasons.
True, that, Athaleon! Whether halflings, gnomes or shadier types like ratfolk or now goblins, the small races have always been quirky at best.
The real answer is that goblin characters can be explained away by reasons.
Single goblins are easy to justify. Multiple ones harder and it becomes even more difficult to explain them with any regularity as an acceptable generic background person that no one paid attention too. The lone adventurer I can buy: it's the random unknown goblin at the market that everyone is ok with them being there that doesn't make sense to me.
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At the market? It's just a Nilbog mushroom farmer selling his family's produce. What are ya? Some kind of speciesist bigot? <g>
I don't even dare dig into the main goblin thread anymore. It grew 600+ messages while I was sleeping. Agh!
Seriously, I just don't see where all the anti-goblin angst comes from. I mean, c'mon. This is Paizo, right? Folks have seen their Christmas cards, right? It's not like this goblin fetish were something new.
I am really curious to see the lore behind the inclusion of Goblins in the core book. The drow in D&D have a long story across editions.
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Obviously the little maniacs bribed someone at Paizo!
...I suspect Cosmo! :P
As a related question, what gods would an adventuring goblin conceivably worship? Maybe they wouldn't go full celestial realms with their new devotion, but there are certainly a bunch of other acceptable deities for goblins to discover in their new lives that aren't the Mother of Monsters and the Hero Gods.
Sarenrae seems like an obvious choice. Redemption for goblins plus lots of burning fire. Who knows? Maybe there are swaths of desert-dwelling goblin tribes in the Empire of Kelesh who have been redeemed.
Edit: Also, I would not be surprised if Thistletop becomes a hub for more "civilized" goblins in Return of the Runelords.
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As a related question, what gods would an adventuring goblin conceivably worship? Maybe they wouldn't go full celestial realms with their new devotion, but there are certainly a bunch of other acceptable deities for goblins to discover in their new lives that aren't the Mother of Monsters and the Hero Gods.Sarenrae seems like an obvious choice. Redemption for goblins plus lots of burning fire. Who knows? Maybe there are swaths of desert-dwelling goblin tribes in the Empire of Kelesh who have been redeemed.
Edit: Also, I would not be surprised if Thistletop becomes a hub for more "civilized" goblins in Return of the Runelords.
When i ran Legacy of Fire and my players ran into a certain entertaining goblin in the House of the Beast who was all about the "Mother" and against the "bug in the ground". The party took a liking to him and the warpriest of Saranrae in my group worked hard to convince the goblin to convert to Saranrae. Apparently the goddess of the sun (It is a big ball of fire after all) who is rather against the "Bug in the ground" worked well for goblin ideals... multiple session later the now Neutral goblin cleric of Sarenrae/rogue had become one of the parties most trusted friends and joined them for quite a time (before sadly loosing his life the some proteans inside of a demiplane.... you will be missed Blobog)
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Having to explain why goblins are suddenly more common as adventurers seems unnecessary and overthinking.
Yes, suddenly there will be a lot more goblin PCs in tables everywhere. But... what happens in other tables doesn't affect my game. It's not like every adventure potentially being run across the world is actually taking place. The only group that has impact in my game is my player's. And if no one chooses to play a goblin then there hasn't been some sudden increase in goblin PCs.
Although... given my group has also run We Be Goblins a couple times and had a goblin PC in Skull & Shackles, PC goblins in the core rules won't seem unusual or increase the rate of goblin characters in the game.
The only real group being affected is the Pathfinder Society. But I don't see why the Core Rulebook has to account for an issue affecting the organised play program. That's something PFS can address and turn into a story.
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At the market? It's just a Nilbog mushroom farmer selling his family's produce.
But that means that every town, village, city and outhouse NOW has a conveniently newly found Nilbog mushroom farm equipped with enough farmers to go into said urban area with enough regularity to create a sea change in the fabric of the 'common knowledge' about goblins AS A WHOLE.
That doesn't make ANY sense IMO. 1 town with 1 farm, cool. tens ot thousands? Not so much.
Seriously, I just don't see where all the anti-goblin angst comes from.
That's because, by and large, there ISN'T any. It's anti-CORE goblin angst. You'd see almost none of the outrage if they'd have said 'we're making PC stats for the goblin in the bestiary'. It's the implication that they are as common and expected in the base unaltered game as humans, elves and dwarves which is a huge/major departure from the canon currently produced and seeming not in line with their assertion that there is NOT going to be any major event between editions.
IMO something earthshaking is going to have to take place in the lore to make goblins a common sight in urban areas.
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It's the implication that they are as common and expected in the base unaltered game as humans, elves and dwarves which is a huge/major departure from the canon currently produced and seeming not in line with their assertion that there is NOT going to be any major event between editions.
IMO something earthshaking is going to have to take place in the lore to make goblins a common sight in urban areas.
From my understanding, in current canon elves are a dying race that are dwindling from the face of the earth, and goblins seem to be everywhere and far more numerous than a number of the core races (e.g., half-elves, half-orcs, elves, etc.). And we can't deny that goblins made it to space.
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It's the implication that they are as common and expected in the base unaltered game as humans, elves and dwarves which is a huge/major departure from the canon currently produced and seeming not in line with their assertion that there is NOT going to be any major event between editions.
Goblins already exist everywhere. They mostly keep to shadows, but they are there. They are already as common and expected in the game as humans, elves, and dwarves.
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It's the implication that they are as common and expected in the base unaltered game as humans, elves and dwarves which is a huge/major departure from the canon currently produced and seeming not in line with their assertion that there is NOT going to be any major event between editions.Goblins already exist everywhere. They mostly keep to shadows, but they are there. They are already as common and expected in the game as humans, elves, and dwarves.
But not as heroic figures, or even tolerated parts of society barring....I think at this point it's 3 settlements (Thornkeep, Kaer Maga, Whitethrone). If they are present in other cities, they're described as nuisances at best, pests at worst.
They're what 1st level adventurers in a city go to kill in sewers alongside rats; not what they find hawking wares in the marketplace.
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I actually feel that we're going to end up with an AP that frees the Goblins. Erik Mona has hinted that the last AP of PF1e is going to change a lot of things.
I've jokingly said that Aroden was going to come back, but it could be something where a non-evil deity for Goblins arises or some other major shift in how goblins are acting in the world.
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It's the implication that they are as common and expected in the base unaltered game as humans, elves and dwarves which is a huge/major departure from the canon currently produced and seeming not in line with their assertion that there is NOT going to be any major event between editions.Goblins already exist everywhere. They mostly keep to shadows, but they are there. They are already as common and expected in the game as humans, elves, and dwarves.But not as heroic figures, or even tolerated parts of society barring....I think at this point it's 3 settlements (Thornkeep, Kaer Maga, Whitethrone). If they are present in other cities, they're described as nuisances at best, pests at worst.
They're what 1st level adventurers in a city go to kill in sewers alongside rats; not what they find hawking wares in the marketplace.
Goblin black markets and undercities are not too far a stretch. Just because they are core doesn't mean they must be completely accepted members of society. There just needs to be that one alley that respectable people don't venture down.
The goblin shift might make them more acceptable, or it might only make goblins more likely to join heroic adventures. It doesn't need to be drastic, depending on the position goblins end up occupying in society.
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They're what 1st level adventurers in a city go to kill in sewers alongside rats; not what they find hawking wares in the marketplace.Yeah, completely different from all of those human thugs they find down there as well.
But are those humans considered normal humans, or bad humans, by human society in general?
I mean, you yourself had to say human thugs. Not humans.
All I had to say was goblins. Not evil goblins, or goblin thugs Why? Because goblins have always been presented as an evil, cruel race that delights in causing harm, with very few exceptions. NPCs have reacted to goblins in the same manner one reacts to a very malicious cockroach.
Goblins are an evil race in an RPG setting, made by evil Barghest gods. And that's fine.
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Goblins already exist everywhere. They mostly keep to shadows, but they are there. They are already as common and expected in the game as humans, elves, and dwarves.
It's NOT that goblins are everywhere but CIVILIZED PEACEFUL 'you can trust them in town' goblins are. There is a BIG difference between goblins that raid your farms, burn your animals and vandalize your buildings and the ones you see in the market.
See I'm [quite clearly] talking about common goblins in peaceful URBAN situations so I just don't understand you or Aldarc chiming in with 'but goblins are EVERYWHERE'! It seems a disingenuous argument.
They're what 1st level adventurers in a city go to kill in sewers alongside rats; not what they find hawking wares in the marketplace.Yeah, completely different from all of those human thugs they find down there as well.
There's the thing: known thugs, thieves and bandits aren't allowed in the average town [if possible]: What's changing the perception of goblins to make them palatable, as an ENTIRE race, that would let an unknown one wandering around town? I'm not talking the known exception but the random goblin that shows up.
black markets and undercities are not too far a stretch. Just because they are core doesn't mean they must be completely accepted members of society.
That's the implication because that's what core meant in normal base golarion pathfinder. If they are changing the way things work, that's a more important blog than any single race would be.
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Goblins already exist everywhere. They mostly keep to shadows, but they are there. They are already as common and expected in the game as humans, elves, and dwarves.It's NOT that goblins are everywhere but CIVILIZED PEACEFUL 'you can trust them in town' goblins are. There is a BIG difference between goblins that raid your farms, burn your animals and vandalize your buildings and the ones you see in the market.
See I'm [quite clearly] talking about common goblins in peaceful URBAN situations so I just don't understand you or Aldarc chiming in with 'but goblins are EVERYWHERE'! It seems a disingenuous argument.
I don't understand why you insist it must be the case that goblins are the civilized, peaceful baker of the neighborhood. Goblins can exist in peaceful urban situations as the scavengers and strays that nobody deals with because they kill the rats. Not like those feral ones you hear about out in the country.
Continuing to insist that core goblins mean they must all be bakers, farmers, and merchants is the disingenuous argument. It simply is not the case at all.
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Goblins already exist everywhere. They mostly keep to shadows, but they are there. They are already as common and expected in the game as humans, elves, and dwarves.It's NOT that goblins are everywhere but CIVILIZED PEACEFUL 'you can trust them in town' goblins are. There is a BIG difference between goblins that raid your farms, burn your animals and vandalize your buildings and the ones you see in the market.
See I'm [quite clearly] talking about common goblins in peaceful URBAN situations so I just don't understand you or Aldarc chiming in with 'but goblins are EVERYWHERE'! It seems a disingenuous argument.
I don't understand why you insist it must be the case that goblins are the civilized, peaceful baker of the neighborhood. Goblins can exist in peaceful urban situations as the scavengers and strays that nobody deals with because they kill the rats. Not like those feral ones you hear about out in the country.
Continuing to insist that core goblins mean they must all be bakers, farmers, and merchants is the disingenuous argument. It simply is not the case at all.
Yeah, and this description of living on the fringes of society is pretty dang close to how half-orcs usually live. There's a big difference between tolerated and accepted. I imagine it took a while before half-orcs were even tolerated, to be honest. It isn't crazy to think another race with evil origins could learn to be tolerated as well.
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I don't understand why you insist it must be the case that goblins are the civilized, peaceful baker of the neighborhood.
Because THAT'S what it means in pathfinder core.
Goblins can exist in peaceful urban situations as the scavengers and strays that nobody deals with because they kill the rats. Not like those feral ones you hear about out in the country.
Because pathfinder has a history and background. They have said that they are not making any major changes to that. The history and background of goblins are as psycho-murdering pyromaniacs... It doesn't add up.
Continuing to insist that core goblins mean they must all be bakers, farmers, and merchants is the disingenuous argument. It simply is not the case at all.
I've NEVER said that. What the issue is, IMO, is that goblins as core means that your random goblin PC can expect to not be attack/barred from 'normal' places they go without a prior knowledge of them. What I mean by that is that goblin's reputation somehow gets good enough in 10 years that they NO longer have their only rep but the new one of 'meh, they aren't so bad' and that is mind boggling. A new generation of goblins might have been born and act differently but the human, elf and dwarves that recall being attack, had their livestock stolen and their dogs killed 10 years ago aren't going to suddenly forget that fact.
Yeah, and this description of living on the fringes of society is pretty dang close to how half-orcs usually live.
Living on the fringe and being a universally known threat/vermin is quite far apart. Dislike and even hate are pretty far from 'kill on sight' and 'literally thought of as vermin'.
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I actually feel that we're going to end up with an AP that frees the Goblins. Erik Mona has hinted that the last AP of PF1e is going to change a lot of things.
I've jokingly said that Aroden was going to come back, but it could be something where a non-evil deity for Goblins arises or some other major shift in how goblins are acting in the world.
Maybe it is discovered that Aroden was really 3 goblins in a trenchcoat, and his death was really just him going into a cave and eating so many rare mushrooms that the resulting high made prophecies trippy and unreliable. He emerges and now humans, the most populous species, feel an obligation to protect goblins. Wars are waged for 10 years, new setting begins when unstable armistices and peace treaties are setup protecting goblins.
Solved goblins and what happened to Aroden!
Jokes aside though, a goblin hero-god changing the culture of goblins and society alike is a solid idea.
I don't understand why you insist it must be the case that goblins are the civilized, peaceful baker of the neighborhood.Because THAT'S what it means in pathfinder core.
Goblins can exist in peaceful urban situations as the scavengers and strays that nobody deals with because they kill the rats. Not like those feral ones you hear about out in the country.Because pathfinder has a history and background. They have said that they are not making any major changes to that. The history and background of goblins are as psycho-murdering pyromaniacs... It doesn't add up.
Continuing to insist that core goblins mean they must all be bakers, farmers, and merchants is the disingenuous argument. It simply is not the case at all.I've NEVER said that. What the issue is, IMO, is that goblins as core means that your random goblin PC can expect to not be attack/barred from 'normal' places they go without a prior knowledge of them. What I mean by that is that goblin's reputation somehow gets good enough in 10 years that they NO longer have their only rep but the new one of 'meh, they aren't so bad' and that is mind boggling. A new generation of goblins might have been born and act differently but the human, elf and dwarves that recall being attack, had their livestock stolen and their dogs killed 10 years ago aren't going to suddenly forget that fact.
Yeah, and this description of living on the fringes of society is pretty dang close to how half-orcs usually live.Living on the fringe and being a universally known threat/vermin is quite far apart.
Do you think half-orcs were always living on the fringe though? I imagine there were a fair number of infants murdered in communities ravaged by orcs, to be honest. Probably still are in some places. I don't find it hard to believe society at large could begin to warm up to goblins gradually, as they probably had to adjust to half-orcs and tieflings and whatnot.
I'm hesitant to draw real world examples of society becoming more tolerant, because Pathfinder does have species of sentient non-human creatures with undeniably evil origins baked in. On the other hand, Pathfinder also has something we lack: myth level heroes. Communities are regularly saved by groups of plucky adventurers, and sometimes those adventurers save the whole world. How many of these groups of heroes would need to include goblins before word begins to spread and hearts and minds start changing? This is one thing that Paizo has said happened to explain the shift.
If I've heard rumors that every now and then there is not just a good goblin, but a GREAT goblin who has done heroic deeds, is it that hard to imagine I might not kill a goblin on sight? Assuming they are well behaved, and quite possibly in the company of non-goblins.
Jokes aside though, a goblin hero-god changing the culture of goblins and society alike is a solid idea.
I'm still going with time traveling, plane shifting space goblins that crashland all over the planet... Then the space herpes that stowed away on the ship kills all the original goblins so we're left with only space goblins!
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Do you think half-orcs were always living on the fringe though?
Yes. Their PR is much better than goblins.
I imagine there were a fair number of infants murdered in communities ravaged by orcs, to be honest.
That sounds like 'living on the fringe' to me.
I don't find it hard to believe society at large could begin to warm up to goblins gradually, as they probably had to adjust to half-orcs and tieflings and whatnot.
In TEN years? We have full blown 'kill em on sight' hatred now and NONE of the other core races have a short memory. If we were talking hundreds of years, fine. Maybe even a few decades. But we aren't even talking about the time for a human to mature.
Communities are regularly saved by groups of plucky adventurers, and sometimes those adventurers save the whole world. How many of these groups of heroes would need to include goblins before word begins to spread and hearts and minds start changing?
Flip that around once. How many communities have to be attacked by the normal evil goblins to wipe out the plucky goblin adventurers deeds? There are FAR, FAR more bad eggs and an immediate threat is much more important than some hero saving the world that you never met. As long as there are still psycho-pyro chaotic stupid goblins around, 'nice' goblins are a hard sell. IMO it's an argument for THIS goblin being treated different and not goblins as a whole.
If I've heard rumors that every now and then there is not just a good goblin, but a GREAT goblin who has done heroic deeds, is it that hard to imagine I might not kill a goblin on sight? Assuming they are well behaved, and quite possibly in the company of non-goblins.
When you LITERALLY still have your chickens eaten or burned but 'bad' goblins', I'd say 'yes, it's hard to imagine'. Unless those fantastic rumors FAR outweigh personal experience and BAD rumors, I don't see it happening. Your goodie two shoes paladin can afford to try to redeem a goblin but a normal peasant? That's a life and death proposal and EVERYTHING in the current pathfinder says it's an infinitesimally small chance of that. Morals and 'what if it's not evil' takes a back seat to survival of yourself and loved ones.
So it's far different from those 1/2orcs. 1/2 orcs have a bad rep. What they don't have is an actively evil and destructive one. I 1/2 orc might lose his temper and start a bar fight while a goblin might burn down your town just to see the pretty colors...