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Remember that PF did make more in-depth social rules in Ultimate Intrigue. These rules made Charisma LESS important in socializing by making other types of skills valuable in befriending NPCs. I like these rules, and they are more realistic too! shared interests and good intuition can be more effective than personality.
CHA needs to have uses outside of social stuff. Magic item thing is HUGE and probably can single-handedly solve this problem if all characters are affected equally by it. (No "I pass wand to the Bard and not care about this rule".) Magic items for all classes should have this.
In my opinion, the only way to eliminate "dump stats" at all is to eliminate the ability for players to "choose" ability scores.
Roll up stats, build the best character you can think of for those stats, play that character, and if and when that character dies, roll up a new one.
From a fellow who has been playing for a while now, I just want to say that the game, as it is played, is very different from the one I played many years ago, and a fundamental component of that difference is that characters today are, in fact, "created" and there was a time when they were not. They were "rolled-up" and that, as I see it, is a very different thing indeed.
Yeap, and when we didnt like what we got, the character ran face first into every buzzsaw. Good times indeed. Choosing? No respect I tell ya.
What about take a small page from 4E, and make Saves based on one of two stats (whichever is higher)?
Fort - Str or Con
Ref - Dex or Int
Will - Wis or Cha
This just encourages super dumping. The least appealing part of 4E.
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Personally, I don't mind "dump stats." The fact that one score, above all others, is the usual go-to for a dump stat is more of an issue.
This, 100 times this.
Dump stats are GOOD, because they differentiate characters from one another. A 7 Str character is very different than a 16 Str character, and a 7 Cha character is very different than an 18 Cha character. We definitely DON'T want a system that encourages every build to have all 14s for stats.
But, if 90% of melee builds are dumping Cha, or 90% of caster builds are dumping Str, then you get back to the point where every build stats looking the same - which is the opposite of what we want.
Ideally, even within-class there should be legitimate options for very different stat arrays. I like having BOTH Str rogues and Dex rogues, I'll be sad if we see that there's no reason to build a Str-based rogue in PF2. I like Sage sorcerer because it means you can have a Wis-based sorcerer. I like that there are Str-based druids and Wis-based druids and they play differently.
Mechanics that allow for multiple different equally-viable builds are great. Mechanics that reward EVERYONE to dump or EVERYONE to max a certain stat are poor design (I'm looking at you, Perception.)
I just think that passing Will saves off to Charisma would do it. Especially if Initiative is now more Wisdom-based. Really, it doesn't really make a ton of sense as to why 'perception, observation, and common sense' would keep you from getting banished to hell, blinded by glittering motes of dust, or getting mind controlled. Those all seem much more like a 'force of personality' kind of thing.
I'm personally against the idea of limiting magical item use from CHA, because in basically every fantasy story ever, magic items are there to make things easier for the magic users, because their magic had already been used, and as such didn't require much beyond the user knowing what they're doing and letting the item take care of the rest. Could you imagine LotR if Frodo could only turn invisible so many times per day using the Ring, Gandalf not being able to use his staff more than twice per day, or Harry Potter where broomsticks stopped working for a given person every day once they used it for too long?
UNLESS (This is the one way I would like Cha to be tied to magic items) your CHA modifier applied to a limited-use item's uses per day. For instance, if a magic item was normally usable 3/day, someone with a +2 CHA would be able to use that item 5/day, but have that not impact any other items they use. It would fit with UMD being Cha-based, too.
Or, you know, just don't do anything to fix Charisma. A lot of action-hero movie stars are loners/not great with people. We all know what their dump stat must have been.
Personally, I don't mind "dump stats." The fact that one score, above all others, is the usual go-to for a dump stat is more of an issue.This, 100 times this.
Dump stats are GOOD, because they differentiate characters from one another. A 7 Str character is very different than a 16 Str character, and a 7 Cha character is very different than an 18 Cha character. We definitely DON'T want a system that encourages every build to have all 14s for stats.
But, if 90% of melee builds are dumping Cha, or 90% of caster builds are dumping Str, then you get back to the point where every build stats looking the same - which is the opposite of what we want.
Ideally, even within-class there should be legitimate options for very different stat arrays. I like having BOTH Str rogues and Dex rogues, I'll be sad if we see that there's no reason to build a Str-based rogue in PF2. I like Sage sorcerer because it means you can have a Wis-based sorcerer. I like that there are Str-based druids and Wis-based druids and they play differently.
Mechanics that allow for multiple different equally-viable builds are great. Mechanics that reward EVERYONE to dump or EVERYONE to max a certain stat are poor design (I'm looking at you, Perception.)
I wholeheartedly agree with this, too. I don't think classes need to be shoehorned into just some specific stats. I realize you'd have to re-design spellcasters to not rely on 1 "god stat" but you can try to make others more useful.
Strength Rogue IS viable in PF1e. I would be very sad if they shoehorned the class into ONLY being Dexlord (Looking at you, 5e Rogues and Monks).
It's also a bad idea to boost what is already their best stat like 5e did. ("You're telling me my Warlock has CHA to spell DC, CHA to spell-attack, CHA to melee attack and CHA to damage? Well wtf happens with STR!?"). At least PF1e made Dex important for ray/touch mages and CHA for channely Clerics. Yes, this makes them more MAD and not easy for newbies to build, but it brings some variety and balance. MAD classes are only bad relative to SAD ones, not the game system.
Can anyone explain why Use Magic Device is a Charisma-based skill?
I'm all for a more balanced application of the base ability scores, and I agree that Charisma could use some love. But I'm hesitant about tying magic item use more closely to Charisma because the connection isn't intuitive to start with.
Maybe, if all magic items in Pathfinder were intelligent and had personalities, it would make more sense. "C'mon, wand, heal me. Pretty please?"
Same reason why Sorcerer has charisma as main stat. It means force of personality, and that's how you connect with magic at the most basic, intuitive level.
Can anyone explain why Use Magic Device is a Charisma-based skill?
That is a very good question, and I fear the answer is because of tradition, maybe I'm wrong.
What about applying Cha modifier as a percentage when selling/buying items?
Let's take for example a magic item with a price of 10,000 gp and a PC with Cha 20 (+5). When this PC buy that item it will cost 9,500 gp, and when it sells it will be for 5,250 gp.
I know this will not help in a dungeon crawl, but it will be a nice boon to have in the party, and it is not to good to make you go above WBL.
I don't really want Charisma to be useful in every fight or dungeon. I want more robust mechanics for interacting with people (and similar) in social situations.
Yes this please
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Can anyone explain why Use Magic Device is a Charisma-based skill?That is a very good question, and I fear the answer is because of tradition, maybe I'm wrong.
What about applying Cha modifier as a percentage when selling/buying items?
Let's take for example a magic item with a price of 10,000 gp and a PC with Cha 20 (+5). When this PC buy that item it will cost 9,500 gp, and when it sells it will be for 5,250 gp.
I know this will not help in a dungeon crawl, but it will be a nice boon to have in the party, and it is not to good to make you go above WBL.
That just mean everybody in the party still dumps charisma, and the bard/sorcerer/oracle/paladin sells everything for the group.
Any change to out-of-combat you make to charisma will still keep it as the go-to dump stat. It already governs all social skills (assuming no traits to change social skills to Intelligence or whatever). It does not matter, because the players who dump CHA to 7, do not care about that. Somebody else will be the party's face.
To make any CHA dump meaningful, Cha has to be tied to things that are meaningful. Saves, magic items, etc, matter, even to those who dump CHA to 7 in every character.
I don't really want Charisma to be useful in every fight or dungeon. I want more robust mechanics for interacting with people (and similar) in social situations.Yes this please
This was done in Ultimate Intrigue, and it makes Charisma weaker.
Alternatively, and i know this is an unpopular opinion, is to make dumping stats no longer profittable as they implemented in starfinder. I like min/maxing as much as the next guy, but this is an option. Just maybe not the most favorable one.
This is arbitrary and aesthetics-based, but I'd be okay with this iff ability scores were merged with ability bonuses, because sometimes (always) I want to play a weak/foolish/awkward character, and 0/5 feels more like a minimum than 10/18.
Exactly that.
It's ok that characters have different strengths and weaknesses. But lowering a stat to raise other should be a compromise. "i'll have less hit points, because I want to be nimble". If charisma gives you exactly nothing (or nothing meaningful), then that's not "trading" charisma for Strength. That's having free strength.
Exactly that.
It's ok that characters have different strengths and weaknesses. But lowering a stat to raise other should be a compromise. "i'll have less hit points, because I want to be nimble". If charisma gives you exactly nothing (or nothing meaningful), then that's not "trading" charisma for Strength. That's having free strength.
Was just reminded of D&D 1st edition dumping when the tradeouts cost double (dump 2 to get 1) and certain stats were exempt from dumping depending on class. Usually could only dump STR/DEX/INT I think...
Same reason why Sorcerer has charisma as main stat. It means force of personality, and that's how you connect with magic at the most basic, intuitive level.
But doesn't "intuitive" imply Wisdom, not Charisma? From the CRB: "Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition."
Yes, Wisdom is intuition. But that's not what I meant,poor word choice. I meant to say "untrained".
I mean that Charisma is the measure of personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, etc. It's what it's used to see your ability to channel raw power (like Sorcerer spells, or a cleric Channel Energy).
When you use magic device, you attempt to focus raw power and "force" the item to act.
Charisma isn't broken. The issue is that PF1 is more of a combat game than a RP'ing game. Because charisma focused on things that weren't the primary focus it took a back seat when it was time to create characters for the most part.
That is why you typically only needed one person in the party to handle social things, and even if you didn't have them swords and spells could solve the problem.
If you want more of a RP aspect you have to change the nature of the game, and while PF2 is bringing different mechanics the idea of the game being focused on fantasy combat is not something that I expect to see change.
Trying to force Cha to be useful isn't going to change the fact that combat is what characters will be built around.
So instead of trying to shoehorn charisma into the game, and making classes more MAD, why not just tell us the concepts you think are not viable so we can work to fix that.
Folks just want to min/max and be beautiful too.
that would also be good, i've seen games work well with just having 4 stats
Or three? Body, Mind, Soul?
I know I'm way off base from anything that will ever make it into PF, but it seems so much more elegant, especially from a new player's perspective, than "Strength... Dexterity... Con...something? And some other ones?"
Retool the skill list to provide a few more combat-relevant entries, and you could design a very cool interlocking bonus system:
The barbarian strikes with Body+Intimidate...
The rogue attacks with Body+Stealth...
The illusionist uses Mind+Bluff to confuse her opponents...
And so on.
Yeap, and when we didnt like what we got, the character ran face first into every buzzsaw. Good times indeed. Choosing? No respect I tell ya.In my opinion, the only way to eliminate "dump stats" at all is to eliminate the ability for players to "choose" ability scores.
Roll up stats, build the best character you can think of for those stats, play that character, and if and when that character dies, roll up a new one.
From a fellow who has been playing for a while now, I just want to say that the game, as it is played, is very different from the one I played many years ago, and a fundamental component of that difference is that characters today are, in fact, "created" and there was a time when they were not. They were "rolled-up" and that, as I see it, is a very different thing indeed.
Yep, totally. As I said in the AD&D thread, during those days I actively looked for games other than AD&D, because it kinda sucked. After 3.0 I didn't really look back, the game had improved so much. Let's not go back to the dark times.
Exactly that.
It's ok that characters have different strengths and weaknesses. But lowering a stat to raise other should be a compromise. "i'll have less hit points, because I want to be nimble". If charisma gives you exactly nothing (or nothing meaningful), then that's not "trading" charisma for Strength. That's having free strength.
1000 times this. Having a stat that is mostly useless is never a good idea. Either make it useful or get rid of it. 6 stats isn't sacred.
Btw, I don't count Oradin builds with Scion of War or other such shenanigans as "making it useful". That's just selectively breaking Charisma in the other direction, using the patches that were tried.
I was actually working on a homebree fix for some of my issues with Pathfinder this week when I found out about 2nd Edition, and it just so happened that Charisma was one of my biggest interests in fixing. I personally love what I have heard about it being used to power magic items, as this serves the purpose of making it useful while also preventing people from spamming wands of CLW in their downtime. But before hearing about that I was leaning towards removing Charisma altogether. Not just lowering the number of attributes mind you, I wanted to divvy it’s duties among Wisdom and Intelligence (Changing Wisdom to Will while at it, also making all saves attribute based and not three separate scores) while adding Perception as the third mental attribute.
This also serves the role of attempting to fix the issue with Perception as a skill, so players won’t be forced to sink skill points into the same skill each level, and it would also nerf Dex some by taking on some of it’s duties like Ranged accuracy and Initiative.
If the devs can make it a viable attribute that would be wanted by players not playing a Sorcerer or Bard then by all means I would support that, but as of now I think replacing it makes more sense than having a pre-built dump stat for 90% of builds.