While we're yelling about class-specific pet peeves...

[The Sideromancer]

Can we drop the Druid restriction on metal armour? Every explanation I've found isn't satisfying, and having a core class thematically broken beyond playability is unacceptable. I have played saner Antipaladins than Druids, because I cannot fathom how to reconcile "I represent the freeform powers of nature" and "I cannot use a material that may well be more natural than something I can use" with anything resembling a firm grasp on reality.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

While we're at it, can we please bring back the grim, predatory, indifferent-to-death 3.5 druid please?

Environmentalist does not mean Animal rights activist.

Make druids fierce, not hippies.

Please make it as clear as possible that they are comfortable using dead animals and plants as food, medicine, clothes, weapons and armors.

[The Sideromancer]

There appears to be little opposition and it would save wordcount. Seems like a good plan, then.

[Charabdos, The Tidal King]

/Signed

[Steelfiredragon]

uuuh... you know a druid can wear a set of studded leather so long as said studs are not worked right? which would make said studs still the iron ore?

but seriously, metal armor makes too much noise for a druid to wear while out in the woods

[Arssanguinus]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Can we drop the Druid restriction on metal armour? Every explanation I've found isn't satisfying, and having a core class thematically broken beyond playability is unacceptable. I have played saner Antipaladins than Druids, because I cannot fathom how to reconcile "I represent the freeform powers of nature" and "I cannot use a material that may well be more natural than something I can use" with anything resembling a firm grasp on reality.

For something broken beyond playing a lot of people play it ...

[Charabdos, The Tidal King]

Steelfiredragon wrote:

but seriously, metal armor makes too much noise for a druid to wear while out in the woods

So it's so loud that it blocks their powers, you say? Fascinating.

[Garfaulk Sharpstone]

Maybe instead of taking something away for wearing metal, they could gain something for not wearing it? Give players an incentive to play a more "natural" druid without hurting those who don't.

[Steelfiredragon]

Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

Steelfiredragon wrote:

but seriously, metal armor makes too much noise for a druid to wear while out in the woods

So it's so loud that it blocks their powers, you say? Fascinating.

no it just scares the animals away

[thflame]

Wait. Druids are weak?

Last I checked they could turn into a T-Rex, while having an abnormally strong T-Rex pet, and summon a small pack (herd? flock?) of T-Rexes, all while raining down lightning on their foes.

The official explanation (a la WotC), is this:

"Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the class’s story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Player’s Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that aren’t the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids don’t lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to."

There are non standard materials that armor can be made from that allows a druid to wear it. I'm pretty sure you can have iron wood full plate.

Honestly, their ability to use scimitars made less sense to me than their lack of ability to wear metal armor, seeing as scimitars are made of metal.

Maybe you could homebrew a Druidic order that doesn't have taboo against metal armor? (Maybe Paizo will do it for you?)

[The Sideromancer]

Steelfiredragon wrote:

Charabdos, The Tidal King wrote:

Steelfiredragon wrote:

but seriously, metal armor makes too much noise for a druid to wear while out in the woods

So it's so loud that it blocks their powers, you say? Fascinating.

no it just scares the animals away

So even a mithril chainshirt (ACP 0) that has been Specially modified for secretive operations in an area of magical silence is louder than a suit of soneplate with a built-in amplifier?

[dragonhunterq]

It's a spiritual taboo, it doesn't need to make rational sense.

[Usmo]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Can we drop the Druid restriction on metal armour? Every explanation I've found isn't satisfying, and having a core class thematically broken beyond playability is unacceptable. I have played saner Antipaladins than Druids, because I cannot fathom how to reconcile "I represent the freeform powers of nature" and "I cannot use a material that may well be more natural than something I can use" with anything resembling a firm grasp on reality.

Yes, this, please. The restriction makes little sense from a mechanical or thematic perspective, and is already partially bypassable by playing a druid of Gorum. Get rid of it, use the word count on something useful, I say. While you're at it, drop the familiarity requirement on wildshape, it is vague and annoying and just ends with you using Summon Nature's Ally to familiarize yourself with dire tigers.

[doctor_wu]

Well mining metal can cause large amounts of pollution is one real only reason I can think of. Blacksmiths aren't exactly the most clean for nature.

[Dragonborn3]

And yet metal weapons are perfectly fine...

[Arssanguinus]

If someone did want to change it up, the option would seem to be something like providing a list of taboos and it’s a ‘pick one’

[Steelfiredragon]

well the druid class is loosely based off the ancient Celtic Druid and they more than likely wore hide armor if they wore any armor at all

[doomman47]

thflame wrote:

Wait. Druids are weak?

Last I checked they could turn into a T-Rex, while having an abnormally strong T-Rex pet, and summon a small pack (herd? flock?) of T-Rexes, all while raining down lightning on their foes.

The official explanation (a la WotC), is this:

"Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the class’s story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Player’s Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that aren’t the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids don’t lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to."

There are non standard materials that armor can be made from that allows a druid to wear it. I'm pretty sure you can have iron wood full plate.

Honestly, their ability to use scimitars made less sense to me than their lack of ability to wear metal armor, seeing as scimitars are made of metal.

Maybe you could homebrew a Druidic order that doesn't have taboo against metal armor? (Maybe Paizo will do it for you?)

t rex is to large for a druid to turn into

[doomman47]

and removing the metal restriction on druids has my vote along with removing alignment restrictions of barbarians, monks, paladins and every other class that has it

[Fuzzypaws]

Arssanguinus wrote:

If someone did want to change it up, the option would seem to be something like providing a list of taboos and it’s a ‘pick one’

This is fine by me. Offer a list of taboos with mechanical consequences and let the Druid / Shaman / whatever pick one or two. Just try to balance them better than the Oracle's Curse, please.

[Neo2151]

Steelfiredragon wrote:

well the druid class is loosely based off the ancient Celtic Druid and they more than likely wore hide armor if they wore any armor at all

Celts wore metal armor. If their priests (druids) were required to fight, they'd be donning some mail just like all the other warriors would be.

The Druid class is largely based off of old British superstitious nonsense rather than actual Celtic or Norse realities, after all. ;)

[Stone Dog]

In the new Conan RPG from Modiphius, one of the things that a sorcerer can learn to do is make cloth that protects as well as actual armor. I don't think it can get as high as steel, but I'd have to own the Scrolls of Skelos book to say that with confidence.

I wouldn't mind keeping the restriction on metal armor if there was a Druid specific Craft feat/talent/widget that allowed something similar. Especially it if was one of those secrets that Druids would go to extreme measures to keep. Druids should have secrets. Secret languages, secret rites, secret crafting techniques... secretly trained evil Druids waiting for the call to reclaim their secrets...

[The Sideromancer]

thflame wrote:

Wait. Druids are weak?

Last I checked they could turn into a T-Rex, while having an abnormally strong T-Rex pet, and summon a small pack (herd? flock?) of T-Rexes, all while raining down lightning on their foes.

The official explanation (a la WotC), is this:

"Druids have a taboo against wearing metal armor and wielding a metal shield. The taboo has been part of the class’s story since the class first appeared in Eldritch Wizardry (1976) and the original Player’s Handbook (1978). The idea is that druids prefer to be protected by animal skins, wood, and other natural materials that aren’t the worked metal that is associated with civilization. Druids don’t lack the ability to wear metal armor. They choose not to wear it. This choice is part of their identity as a mystical order. Think of it in these terms: a vegetarian can eat meat, but the vegetarian chooses not to."

There are non standard materials that armor can be made from that allows a druid to wear it. I'm pretty sure you can have iron wood full plate.

Honestly, their ability to use scimitars made less sense to me than their lack of ability to wear metal armor, seeing as scimitars are made of metal.

Maybe you could homebrew a Druidic order that doesn't have taboo against metal armor? (Maybe Paizo will do it for you?)

This was never a power concern. I am well aware that it costs a maximum of 1650 gp to make any given metal armour out of dragonhide, much less than items for other classes that could be considered required (e.g. gloves of duelling at 15k). In fact, I feel I can make this request partially because it is not a power concern. If it was a meaningful balancer, I would need an alternative drawback that would likely annoy many current players who do not share my obsession with declaring metal natural.

I bolded a few parts of the "official" explanation (though Paizo has no reason to be beholden to what WotC does thematically), because those are the parts that drive me nuts. Why is metal associated with civilization when the chemical-doped hide of an animal selectively bred to be under civilization's thumb isn't (remember, all corn is a GMO)? Why is there a restrictive order with arbitrary traditions, isn't that something that can only exist once you have civilization? Why does a CN follower of one of several deities of metals feel any reason to be bound by this restriction? If it's just an order thing, why has the bezerker lord Gorum been the only entity that's even tried to get around it?