Factions & Fame

[eddv]

Yes, Factions as just another resource to manage is really probably the worst of all possible worlds because its just one more thing that gets explained and is rarely relevant.

So far in SFS, only in Cries from the Drift have factions risen above this and only just the one.

The factions should represent strong threads of the meta-plot and have strong views on the goings on so that they can serve as a way to more deeply engage with the narrative - this can dovetail nicely with the trend of having factions cycle in and out, which I think is a pretty cool idea.

[Starglim]

Bret Indrelee wrote:

I prefer the goal-oriented factions over the nation-oriented factions. I do think there are still gaps where some characters just don't feel like they fit any faction.

For the time it's been available, I feel the Concordance of Elements has really made a difference to this. It fits several previously poorly served motivations.

[Ascalaphus]

Starglim wrote:

Bret Indrelee wrote:

I prefer the goal-oriented factions over the nation-oriented factions. I do think there are still gaps where some characters just don't feel like they fit any faction.

For the time it's been available, I feel the Concordance of Elements has really made a difference to this. It fits several previously poorly served motivations.

Agree, people having been hoping for a faction that is to druids and "green" characters what the Silver Crusade is to paladins. So not restricted to particular classes, but quite hospitable to their mode of thinking.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

NightTrace wrote:

Kurald Galain wrote:

a handful of vanities that nobody ever takes require a 10 or 20 fame, or something?

As a player with a Knight-Captain Gray Corsair Tiller character I feel personally targeted right now. ;)

I recently bought ALL the Sovereign Court vanities and the character is really happy about all of them... he is wearing a lof of bling for a hunter and his best skills are Diplomacy and Bluff with CHA 10.

Losing them or something similar would not be my first choice, I think that factions have become better and better (love the current Sovereign Court story).

[gnoams]

Whatever is decided, I really hope they don't suddenly change it all halfway through. I made a lot of pfs characters identities based around the factions. It was a way to tie them in and make them part of the pfs world. When the factions were all scrapped and rewritten, I lost a lot of interest in the story. My characters had been ripped out of it and no longer belonged. If I kept to character, most of them would have parted ways with the pathfinder society at that point.

So pick something and stick with it. Things can change, sure, but having every faction be rewritten at once was very immersion breaking.

[Gary Bush]

Paul Jackson wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

Paul Jackson wrote:

But I don't really like the Starfinder factions. I've found that, as a GM, I rarely know which factions are even present at the table until I ask. In Starfinder, ICONs actually take a fair bit of the weight off factions in connecting the character to the larger world, giving them a motivation over and above the current mission.

The factions in Starfinder play much less of a role. What the factions do is support the characters on their missions. That's why it is important for the player to support the faction that benefits their character direction or flavor. There are some pretty cool faction boons that are tier 1, which is not all the difficult to get with a character.

If I'm understanding you correctly you seem to think that, essentially, they're just another resource to manage. If you're correct then I don't really see that as worthwhile. To me, the entire POINT of factions is to lead to interesting role playing at the table?

I see it as both actually. The factions are leading to interesting role playing at the table but as a player, I am making a choice as to what faction I am supporting for that scenario.

I don't believe these two items are exclusive from each other.

[Ascalaphus]

gnoams wrote:

Whatever is decided, I really hope they don't suddenly change it all halfway through. I made a lot of pfs characters identities based around the factions. It was a way to tie them in and make them part of the pfs world. When the factions were all scrapped and rewritten, I lost a lot of interest in the story. My characters had been ripped out of it and no longer belonged. If I kept to character, most of them would have parted ways with the pathfinder society at that point.

So pick something and stick with it. Things can change, sure, but having every faction be rewritten at once was very immersion breaking.

I didn't experience it like that; season 4/5 had quite a few scenarios showcasing the changes happening to the factions and why they happened. It was more an evolution than an abrupt change.

Spoiler:

All factions Hellknight's Feast has the factions setting aside their rather outdated shadow war for Absalom to join forces in getting to Jormundr. Also shows some of the "trouble back home" Taldor and Andoran are dealing with. At the end, The Paths We Choose explains the changes six factions undergo.

Andoran The Stolen Heir shows off some of the trouble that's going on in Andoran. If you played it you might not have noticed it because it depends on where the GM puts the accents, but when you're reading this scenario as the GM there's a lot of material to work with. It shows Andoran as a young republic with a lot of internal paranoia about the old nobility coming back into power behind the scenes, banking interests and corporate power (Lumber Consortium) starting to undermine democracy. A bit like 1830s USA unease about the direction the republic is going into.

Cheliax This was already happening in S4, especially with The Disappeared/Fortress of the Nail. Zarta responded by focusing on her personal power base instead of Cheliax's by collecting magical odds and ends throughout S5, and leveraged that into a new institution. Silver Mount Collection also sees her getting tabs on Nigel.

Szcarni / Exchange This plot is kinda longwinded but we spend quite a few sessions chasing leads on the plot to take Guaril out of the picture. Such as Stranger Within and You Have What You Hold. But as we can see from S6-7, for the most part he got bought up by Aaqir.

Taldor This story is started heavily in Hellknight's Feast and then builds up with Library of the Lion/Horn of Aroden, focusing on Gloriana trying to rebuild Taldor's past glory with the new model Army of Exploring Demon Guts. Showing off she has a personal power base but the rest of Taldor isn't following, so it's time to take a new tack. And forging ties with Eutropia for later.

Osirion Season 4 saw a long-winded plot about curing the Ruby Prince which explains why ties to the monarch loosened. Meanwhile Destiny of the Sands sets up a new big goal for Amenopheus which doesn't depend as much on the current monarch of Osirion.

All these factions had extensive buildup to their change.

[eddv]

Lau is right for the most part - though Lantern Lodge/Shadow Lodge/Sczarni really did get the fuzzy end of the stick because going forward from their demises there was very little for former members to latch onto in terms of factions, though Lantern Lodge at least gets plenty of plot to go play with.

Grand Lodge was a very poor catch for Lantern and Shadow and Silver Crusade/Scarab Sages did a serviceable job of catching them a little it just wasn't quite the same.

[Blind Prophet]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

NightTrace wrote:

Kurald Galain wrote:

a handful of vanities that nobody ever takes require a 10 or 20 fame, or something?

As a player with a Knight-Captain Gray Corsair Tiller character I feel personally targeted right now. ;)

I recently bought ALL the Sovereign Court vanities and the character is really happy about all of them... he is wearing a lof of bling for a hunter and his best skills are Diplomacy and Bluff with CHA 10.

Losing them or something similar would not be my first choice, I think that factions have become better and better (love the current Sovereign Court story).

Also, Pasha Cutya, Mistress of Trade would like to say something about that. Vanities are awesome, and they're just that...meant to show off accomplishments, because heck you made it this far, why not?

[Xot]

Other than a standing kill on sight order for Grand Master Torch, I don't really have any deep connection to any of the current PFS factions. I prefer the ideal associated factions that we have now, better than the location based factions of the past. Though I think there may still be a place for the lantern lodge in the west...

Handling the factions the way it is done in Starfinder Society means that we don't really have to have a set number of factions. You can always slot your main faction boon, and get some points. And maybe there aren't any bonus points for a faction for a season or two?

Lastly I can see factions existing for narrower interest. I'd love to have a Harrowed faction!

[GM Aerondor]

This thread has gone a bit quiet which is sad.

I'm not too fussed about what the factions within the society for PFSv2 are. They could be the same, or vary. I suspect we'll see The Condordance, as they are so new in PFS.

What I would like to see returned is Faction Journal Cards. These don't offer massive benefits, but do encourage play that aligns with the various factions aims and goals.

Most of my characters (maybe 2/3) are members of a faction but can take or leave it. A few of them are much more deeply tied in, and to be honest these are the ones that I enjoy playing the most . I started with a "this is my character and maybe they fit best into X", and realised after a year or two that the factions really are the main part of the PFS story.

So my newer characters are mostly done along the lines of "I want to play someone from faction X so I can get into the ongoing story line, what character would fit?"

Ultimately while this is a shared campaign, it is still a story (or several) with an ongoing theme. When I join an AP, I don't necessarily start with just any old character, but rather one that fits into the ongoing theme or story line, because that is how I get the most from it.

[Tash Thon]

GM Aerondor wrote:

So my newer characters are mostly done along the lines of "I want to play someone from faction X so I can get into the ongoing story line, what character would fit?"

I have a few characters who are in factions because it fits their style and story. However, because they aren't exactly the class the devs wanted for that faction, I am absolutely incompetent at the skill checks required to accomplish faction additional objectives and skill-link faction card boxes. Even when I fully devote skill points and (in one case) a feat to not be a total failure at a faction skill.

I like the concept of different fame and prestige values for different factions, but I'd prefer if it was some kind of off-faction fame for assisting a faction member in accomplishing a special reward rather than the completely separate prestige piles in Starfinder Society. That way you could buy off-faction prestige purchases if you have at least as much side-faction fame as the prestige cost and at least as much primary fame as required by the purchase. If this were applied in PFS1, it would result in many prestige-hoarders taking titles from every faction by level 6 just to mess with locals (or at least mine would, even the lawful one).

Not sure if that adds anything to the discussion.

[Lambien]

I am a fan of both the early scenario faction missions and the newer faction journal card system. I enjoy faction leaders making guest appearances with Venture Captains at briefings. They makes PFS unique. I like the dynamic changes in factions each season. Many scenario hooks have come from faction interests. I would like to see them even more differentiated. Let increasing fame mean access to PFS boons in general, but give the greater variance to faction-specific boons and item and aid access. Let the diplomacy fame bonus to faction members be useful for knowledge checks, favors, whatever. In short, make faction choice be more important.

[thaX]

As far as which factions should make the return, I believe we can turn over the factions that make it into season ten, and have the return of the Shadow (Union) Lodge as characters look out for their own. (Having Torch in his new role, it would make sense he would try to have a more ligitement positions within society)

If we want to ferret out and pair down some factions, I think the Exchange and Sovereign Court could go, but not without some (crocodile?) tears.

My real concern is if we go completely with the Starfinder way of things and have the confusing things underneath the chronicle that I still don't know how to fill out. (does the total go in front? in the back? not at all? does the addition Rep earned go in there somewhere, prestige spent?)

We also might be doing characters by hand with the Herolab going to the browser tool now. It would be nice to have a character sheet that has society in mind with a section for factions and earned fame and prestige, and spent pp with places for vanities.

[BigNorseWolf]

Unfortunately torch has gone from someone with a point to full on mustache twirling supervilliany. I don't think a return is possible at this point.

[thaX]

torch:

Even if he is now the Emerald Sage?

The evil aspect has always been about Torch going into the background and manipulating things. I don't believe his return is impossible.

[BigNorseWolf]

torch:

he helped organize the attack on absolom in assault on absolom. I don't know how many peasants die when a Giant Kaiju abomination stitched together with demon parts and giant robot duke it out, but i imagine its a LOT.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, Torch crossed the line.

Torch:

Competing for esoterica like Sage Jewels is annoying but understandable.

Allying with Thurl and Koth'Vaul to unleash demonic hordes on thousands of civilians just to try to paint the Society in a bad light is insane and evil.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I feel like some faction cards provide a bit too much value (Dark Archive) and yeah, I kinda hope to start the next iteration of organized play with Torch permanently out of the picture.. and at this point, I don't care how I just want him gone for good.

[roll4initiative]

I would like to see at least 2 factions featured in each scenario. That way I have more choices as to which PC I can play in that scenario.

[Ascalaphus]

Christian Dragos wrote:

I would like to see at least 2 factions featured in each scenario. That way I have more choices as to which PC I can play in that scenario.

Funny - that would just stress me out because I'll probably have members in both and it gets in the way of completionism for me :P

[numbat1]

I am enjoying the Starfinder concept of being able to accumulate reputation with more than one faction simultaneously. It helps in the representation of one overall society with multiple, focused branches. It also makes sense that each character may connect with one or two factions predominantly, seeking assignments that further their missions, yet be willing to do what it takes for the good of the society as a whole and earn favour with other factions along the way.

It really does help with character selection too, rarely feel I'd rather play a different character but need not to due to level requirements or party composition. I can play who fits best on the day and enjoy.

[RealAlchemy]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Unfortunately torch has gone from someone with a point to full on mustache twirling supervilliany. I don't think a return is possible at this point.

In a certain scenario, a paladin of Iomodae decided he would rather work with the Amethyst Sage than Torch. Just saying ...

[Sebastian Hirsch]

RealAlchemy wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Unfortunately torch has gone from someone with a point to full on mustache twirling supervilliany. I don't think a return is possible at this point.

In a certain scenario, a paladin of Iomodae decided he would rather work with the Amethyst Sage than Torch. Just saying ...

I tend to agree.

[mjmeans]

How about eliminating the concept of "faction membership" for all but the highest levels of characters. When you play scenarios and accomplish things that help the Pathfinder Society you gain fame in the society in a general sense. It is the society itself that provides rescue or raise dead services, and most prestige awards. Faction fame by itself becomes a reputation within a certain socio-political group within the society, gaining (or sometimes even losing) reputation with that faction. Each scenario/module can have one or more ways to earn or lose reputation with one faction or another, but will have no effect on the overall society fame. Your reputation within a certain faction can be spent on unlock certain faction specific boons. While this means that certain types of characters may excel at gaining reputation with the factions that tend to match the character type, it is by no means a certainty.

Scenarios should be crafted so that no boon is restricted in a way that bars the boon because you dont happent o belong to that faction at that time. Instead, if you want faction specific boons, they would be boons that are "unlocked" like prestige awards, requiring a minimum reputation in the faction to purchase. The character can then purchase that boon at any time later in his career after he has sufficient reputation.

Care should be taken to craft PFS2 scenarios in a way that there are several opportunities to gain or lose reputation in one or more factions and so that players are never if ever in a position of not having a character of the appropriate level to participate in a scenario designed "for Silver Crusade", or whatever.

[Kate Baker]

mjmeans, are you playing Starfinder Society Organized Play? A lot of what you're asking for here is how it works in SFS. You still have a faction, but if you play in a faction mission scenario, everyone receives the bonus reputation, and I have yet to see a faction-limited boon on a chronicle sheet, though some are accessible earlier to members of the right faction. Further, each faction has specific boons available that you can access just by gaining reputation with that faction.

[Blake's Tiger]

I think it might be interesting to build in factions (like the Aspis Consortium) for which you could gain Fame from the scenario but not associated with a championable faction (e.g. Silver Crusade or Dark Archive).

It would increase paperwork/player tracking and require design team resources to create vanities for the introduced factions for prestige to be spent upon (as well as taking increasing pages in the guide, but it could be an online SRD resource or supplemental pdf).

Maybe one faction per season tied to the season arc then sprinkled in here and there in later seasons. Or a new way to do regional fame (Andor, Cheliax, etc).

[The Keeper of Wadjet]

Factions must die.

[Z...D...]

The Keeper of Wadjet wrote:

Factions must die.

Why?

[GM Thrawn]

Coming back to this topic after a long time away...

I'd like to have fame/prestige just go away as a general concept that is always tracked.

Then reintroduce factions through boons/chronicles. Have factions get acquired through the the story. I really pushed for having something like a "Blakros Faction Member" boon, that would allow you to use that organization as a secret faction that you could support over the standard factions. SFS has now introduced a couple of factions and I think it is fantastic.

The next step, is making factions a totally optional system, where you don't feel like you are being hurt by not being a member of any of them.

[Gamerskum]

Maybe instead of factions within the society we could gain alliances with outside organizations like the Helllnight, abadaran church nd then just have a plain generic society fame too. That way you could be a famous society member with strong ties to say the medevan crusade, the taldor Empire and the church of insert god.

[Richard Crawford]

I think reducing the overall number of factions would be good. The main effect from going from five to ten in season three resulted in diluting the importance of them.

[Brent Bowser]

As complicated as it can be, I do like the Starfinder system of granting some bonus prestige for doing missions for your faction, and getting prestige outside of your current faction.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I never got that invested in the factions in either game because I don't quite understand trying to be a noble for Taldan while being on the job for the Pathfinder Society, or why the Society tolerates the Dark Archive for snooping through their things when I'm sure they'd be just as happy working with the Aspis Consortium to achieve similar goals. I understand why we're all Pathfinders from a story telling stand point. It is easier to send out a call to action to the PCs specifically. Avengers Assemble and all that.

My suggestion is either double down on the Pathfinder aspect of character creation, or abandon it. If we are pathfinders, can our factions be within the Society itself? When I look at the Grand Lodge layout in Serpent's Rise/Ire, I think we could have factions reporting to the various fields of study within the Lodge, like the Menagerie.

Or make the Pathfinder Society a faction itself, and draw in factions from the rest of the lore where it makes sense. We can be