Boons

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

If the new system is planning to fail in the role-playing aspect, then yes there would be no point. I, however, choose to retain some hope.

There is zero connection between anything you're saying here and role playing failure. At all.

[TwilightKnight]

WolfhawkAz wrote:

If the new system is planning to fail in the role-playing aspect, then yes there would be no point. I, however, choose to retain some hope.

Nothing I've read or seen gives me the impression that role-playing will be impacted by the new rules system. The link between system and role-play is very weak so I wouldn't worry about that.

[nogoodscallywag]

James Anderson wrote:

Well, the big question to me is what happens to the giant stack of boons I've got in a folder here? Can they be carried forward to 2nd ed or do they effectively expire in 16 months?

My vote is to carry some forward on a boon-by-boon basis. Some probably won't work in the new system, but if it CAN be brought forward it should.

In the interest of dev sanity, I don't think boons should be carried over. Besides, PF 1e will still be playable; our PF 1e characters won't be carried over, so boons probably shouldn't. This is a new system and never the two shall meet.

I do think boons should be better. I think I only use a few boons out of a giant stack. Plus, I simply quit tracking all the minor bonuses I get because 1) they are minor and 2) they are so specific there's really no reason to put forth the effort of tracking because those minor specific bonus are rarely used.

Dustin Knight wrote:

1.) Not to bring up the elephant in the room, but can we do something about boon security? I'm a pretty trusting guy, but I never know if a boon I got in a trade was just photocopied.

A.) The low-tech solution would be to make a sub-forum exclusively for Pathfinder Society boons. Make a thread every time you release a new boon. Every time a player assigns a boon to one of their characters, or trades it to another player, they write a post. Print a hyperlink to the thread on the boon sheet so everyone involved understands the process. This would also eliminate the need for the player run "boon list" currently being kept in a google drive, and encourage convention participation for new players who don't know how cool new boons are!

B.) The high-tech solution would be to assign boons as unique hash tag gift certificates that expire when they are redeemed. They don't even need to print out the boon themselves. But this would require a whole new program to be implemented on the site, which our shiny new streamlined site doesn't need.

2.) I want watermarks on my boons indicating what "slot" they go into! Ok, I just think it'd look pretty...

3.) Please don't use QR codes as a solution. They are a terrible idea.

The problem with these is that it requires the GM at the table to have to check on each players' boon for validity. Ain't nobody got time for that. It's rare that a GM even looks over character sheets anymore for validity, let alone boons. And believe me, I'm a stickler for the paperwork and recordkeeping to keep people honest. Like you said @Dustin Knight, what's to keep people from just making a level 12 and playing? I guess there isn't anything. In the long run, maybe it's just about playing the game and having fun.

Sprada wrote:

I also have a big issue losing the boons I have acquired. I originally, and naively, expected to be able to use earned Tiefling, Dampir, Samarsan, Grippli, & Suli boons, but I can only play on occasion, even less because I normally end up GMing when I am available for my local game store's PFS game day. I now have to find a way to use my hard earned boons by the end of 2019. Because I will be shocked if any store's will offer PFS 1st, 2nd & SFS for play. I've already been informed my local community will be moving on to second edition, and I've only been playing since December 17'. I feel like I've wasted my time & money trying to learn first edition and I'm just going to blow in the wind.

Sprada is right on this one, unfortunately. With the move to the new PF 2e, PF 1e opportunities will dwindle dramatically.

Starfinders slotted boon system seems like a time-killer. It already takes everyone a few minutes to get their dice and sheets out, let alone rifle through boons and talk to figure out which ones should be used. Not, however, my SFS group, none of us have any boons to rifle through.

[NightTrace]

As a comment on security measures, our Lodge bought an embosser.

[pauljathome]

NightTrace wrote:

As a comment on security measures, our Lodge bought an embosser.

Was there an actual problem with people cheating or was this done "just in case"?

[crashcanuck]

The only boons I honestly want to see carry over into 2E is maybe a scaling boon based on how much of the PFS 2E Playtest material you take part in. Nothing huge, scale it like the Quests but it would be nice to have something like that.

[TwilightKnight]

Paul Jackson wrote:

NightTrace wrote:

As a comment on security measures, our Lodge bought an embosser.

Was there an actual problem with people cheating or was this done "just in case"?

Spoiler:

There are plenty of examples of boon pirating that I do not think a lodge needs to experience it to take proactive steps to reduce the chances it will.

[Janet Kuhlmann]

First of all there are two types of boons that need to be considered. There are the boons that are given away as prizes, rewards, for GM'ing at conventions. Those are on their own piece of paper and generally offer something valuable (like the ability to play a non-playable race). All well and good, but anyone who has those should just go ahead and make up a 1e character because playable races in 2e may be completely different. I have several boons that were made obsolete when playable races changed. It happens and it will continue to happen.

Besides, who's to say that ANY of those races will even have Ancestries defined that will allow them to be played in 2e. Use them or lose them. It's not like you can't continue to play 1e. There's a ton of material out there and there will be a lot of people who will want to play it even if it's not offered at conventions and game days.

To me, the real problem boons are those that appear on chronicles. Most of them are just useless, and especially the faction boons, which, because there are TOO many factions, very few people ever even qualify for the faction boons anyway. I usually play the type of character to will help the party survive and succeed and that's not always a match to the featured faction. Besides those are useless anyway. And chronicle boons that require you to play several scenarios in a line of non-series scenarios are just stupid. I say do away with chronicle boons. 9 times out of 10 you don't know you should have played another character (who may or may not be in the right tier to play the scenario). Almost no one ever qualifies for the boons anyway, so everyone just feels disappointed or cheated out of something cool and the people who do manage to get those kinds of things consistently are probably checking out the chronicle beforehand.

Here's how I would do it. You play a scenario in which a faction figures prominently and you support them, you get a point with that faction. The POINT you earned appears on your chronicle. Then like prestige, you can spend it to buy "boons" that are available from the faction. Different boons might cost different numbers of points. Lower the number of factions so there are maybe 5, so it's easier to manage and publish a free pdf with the boons and the point costs. AND NEVER ATTACH A SPECIFIC BOON TO A CHRONICLE AGAIN, because that's just a waste of time and paper.

If you want to put something on the chronicle or it isn't just lots of white space, put a short recap of the scenario so when the player looks at the chronicle, it means something more than just xp and money. For example, "You helped the (Faction Name) cement their trade agreements in (Place Name) and resolved the problems they were having with slaver raids. (NPC Name) was pleased with the results of your efforts and has spoken on your behalf with his faction. (You receive N faction points with the (Faction Name).)"

I think that fits better with the more fluid way that the rest of the character building works and a character can get a boon that is actually useful to their build/role/ethos instead of a useless thing that you will look at once and forget and never use.

I also think it should be possible to be "factionless" which means you gain less faction points with anyone you "help" and the cost of boons is higher than if you are dedicated to a specific faction.

So while I may not be happy about everything that I've been reading about 2nd Ed., I really appreciate that boons are going to be revamped.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many players use a tablet or a laptop or even their phone to play these days and don't carry the paper around. They aren't concerned about micromanaging their chronicles. They want things they can make note of on their online character sheet. So streamline.

So BRAVO (or BRAVA, as the case may be) for revising boons. I am interested to see how the boons will be implemented though. Maybe my suggestion will be helpful in that regard. The devil is always in the details.

Oh, and I could care less whether any of the boons I got in 1st ed carry over into 2nd. I doubt they would apply anyway since it sounds like the whole game system is being rewritten. Maybe race boons, but that's it. But playable races have been changing every couple of years anyway, so maybe half the boons out there won't be needed any more or even usable until all those races get fleshed out in terms of the new Ancestries.

[Gary Bush]

nogoodscallywag wrote:

Starfinders slotted boon system seems like a time-killer. It already takes everyone a few minutes to get their dice and sheets out, let alone rifle through boons and talk to figure out which ones should be used. Not, however, my SFS group, none of us have any boons to rifle through.

As the players and GMs have become comfortable with the process, I have found this process does not take as much time as people fear it takes. Remember, time is built into the scenarios for this activity to happen.

As for boons, each of you should have a champion boon, and after just a few adventures, ally boons from Fame Purchases, and various boons from chronicles; your group should have boons to slot.

[Blake's Tiger]

Janet Kuhlmann wrote:

I have several boons that were made obsolete when playable races changed. It happens and it will continue to happen.

I thought that was one of the best arguments the opposite view has made. Then I remembered the Suli boon made to burn those now obsolete elemental race boons and gain access to something else special.

So Paizo has shown love to those who have lost out on specialness in the past, why shouldn't they again?

[Lambien]

Race boons are the most valuable it seems, so make them only available as a special reward for a scenario series finale, con special, etc.
Either make an "I know a guy. . ." sheet, similar to the current item purchase sheet, to track minor boons at a glance (one-time +1 to specific somesuch, etc.)or instead limit these to say, only useful for the next three scenarios so you don't have to keep track. I still like rewards, so I don't want to lose them, but they are unwieldy, slow, and cumbersome as is, especially recent ones that are good for all your characters, etc.

[Hobo Sapiens]

I'd like a Paizo statement stating that PFS boons (particularly race boons) will be usable in PFS2 in some equivalent manner. That will put to rest a lot of the GM concerns over GM rewards.
It's probably been done in a blog post, so link away...

[Azothath]

1) Easy recognition. Boons should acquire a PF2 logo so they are easily distinguishable from current boons (not just the year logo). A change in type(font) to something more readable would be nice(i,I,l,L,1,0,O,5,S should all be distinguishable).

2) Layout current boon format/layout is good. If you keep CORE2 leave it on there. Same for slow track.

3) Slotted boons are a good idea and could be done in 2 manners; player (can be applied on any character at the start of a session) and character(dedicated to that character number). Is it is starting there will need to be a number of basic boons to fill these slots, which brings us to the next topic...

4) IF available races change create a transfer race boon. Simply have A PFS2 Uncommon Race A, B, C available for PFS1 race boon on a 1::1 basis. PFS2 Rare Race D & original boon race req's, then rare race E & original boon race req's available for PFS1 specific races on a 1::1 basis. Both boons should be freely downloadable. GenCon GM boons should have a race list of "rare" races.

5) transfer boons to slotted boon there are a lot of oddball boons out there. I don't think much will change as ammo is ammo, gold is gold but skills will have to map to new skills. It would be nice to have some freely available slot boons for PFS1 boons stating the new slot, so you just attach the old boon to the slotted boon and you are good to go.
How Ley Line 1 and 2 or Psychic skills/magic is going to work out will take some thought.

[Azothath]

RVCs should get an embosser with their region so they can print and stamp limited copies of 'valuable' boons for their area (Regional events, charity boons, special boons for conventions). Delegate.
Such boons also need to say "PFS embossment required".

[TwilightKnight]

Hobo Sapiens wrote:

I'd like a Paizo statement...

Its unlikely that we're going to get many official statements regarding boons and other game mechanic-based rewards until the system is finalized. At this point they/we don't even know what parts of the system will be changed or scrapped entirely until after the playtest. Its hard to decide what to do with boons, racial or otherwise, and what changes to the OP Guide will be required until the rules are finalized.

[TwilightKnight]

Stephen Ross wrote:

RVCs should get an embosser with their region so they can print and stamp limited copies of 'valuable' boons for their area (Regional events, charity boons, special boons for conventions). Delegate.

Such boons also need to say "PFS embossment required".

To what effect? Which boons are "valuable" and therefore treated differently than other boons? What significance is there to the embossing? Is it just to reduce counterfeiting? If we mandated this, who is designing the "official" embossing (so it is consistent from region to region? Who is paying for the embosser? When we emboss these boons, how do we get them in the hands of the recipient? What do we gain by adding this level of bureaucracy? I'm not sure the context of your comments

[GM Wageslave]

And in addition, who is going to secure these Boons 100% and ensure that they are distributed in a timely fashion to all of the conventions in a fiscally responsible fashion?

[Terminalmancer]

Makes the conversion to digital that much harder, too.

[Azothath]

going digital would be great but the processes in place are paper bound and simple.

Boons would have to be tied to your Paizo account AND a character ID AND There would have to be a way for a table GM to verify that data... public character pages would be awesome with play history and boon data. It only leaves verifying that the fleshy person in front of the GM is the owner of the account... Cheliax uses blood samples... 8^0

[Terminalmancer]

Stephen Ross wrote:

going digital would be great but the processes in place are paper bound and simple.

I was only referring to the problem that any enforced embossing is going to make the online region justifiably unhappy. It would also make the recent moves to allow people to optionally carry digital (scanned or otherwise) versions of their chronicles and boons way more complicated.

Stephen Ross wrote:

Boons would have to be tied to your Paizo account AND a character ID AND There would have to be a way for a table GM to verify that data... public character pages would be awesome with play history and boon data. It only leaves verifying that the fleshy person in front of the GM is the owner of the account... Cheliax uses blood samples... 8^0

But yeah, I agree with this. There's a leap we'd have to make to support going 100% digital. And that's going to be a tough sell for folks without a constant internet connection.

(Or a fear of needles.)

[Shifty]

Slotting boons in Starfinder is terrible, so whatever system we use, let's not use that one.

With regards to fake boons and all that other shenanigans, I am certainly not keen on having to sort out a half a dozen embossers to distribute over our local venues, especially as we have yet to have a single questionable incident in this region in the decade PFS has been running.

[thaX]

I have to agree about the slotting boons. I think Starfinder has a niche and can have the slot boons as a future/setting specific standard, but PF2 really does not need to copy that aspect of how to assign boons. Assigning specific boons to characters is still the best way to do it and the slotted boon system needs to stay with the Starfinder setting.

My question is if we need to have more of the one shot boons ("...When you use this boon, mark it off afterwards...") so that players can keep track of them easier?

[Blake's Tiger]

The 'problems' with one-shot boons is that we hoard them for that clutch moment (and then forget to use them) and they're so ultra specific that they never get used (+2 diplomacy with freed slaves in Absalom).

One shots need to be generic +1 to attack or +1 to save or +1 to X skill, not require an action, and, if you really want to drive their use, allowed to be applied after the success/failure is determined (because we're not thinking of our random stash of tiny bonuses during the narative when the GM springs a request for knowledge rolls on us, but when we see that 8 come up we remember and kick ourselves).

[Hmm]

I love the boon slotting in Starfinder. Am I weird? I have all my boons listed on my character, and a fairly standard layout for what I slot in. The scenarios usually tell you when one of the weird boons will be needed, and that’s when I use them!

Hmm

[BigNorseWolf]

If you don't like the slotted boons from starfinder, offer a suggestion that doesn't lead to either

1) absurd power increases as you combine all 74 boons to form VOLTRON

2) absurdly specific boons that you'll never see again. A +2 bonus on social skills with varisian hairdressers?

3) 30 one time use boons you forget are there.

[Terminalmancer]

Why? I actually enjoy #2! Also I don't mind #3. It's fun being able to identify specific scenarios based on the bonuses. Reminds me of all the adventures that character has been on. If we'd have kept the existing PFS system I would have been fine with it. :)

I mean, we get enough power boosts as it is. Prestige purchasing is really powerful!

[Muzouka]

How about putting two items each class can use but only allow the PC to buy one of them?

Some boons are not new player friendly. I saw received a boon that would allow me to buy an avenging dagger for 120k. How do I buy something like that? I only joined starting Season 8.

[Pirate Rob]

Terminalmancer wrote:

Why? I actually enjoy #2! Also I don't mind #3. It's fun being able to identify specific scenarios based on the bonuses. Reminds me of all the adventures that character has been on. If we'd have kept the existing PFS system I would have been fine with it. :)

I mean, we get enough power boosts as it is. Prestige purchasing is really powerful!

How do you remember all of the niche bonuses?

I'm sure I'm super far right on the bell curve of how much PFS played but I've got 45 characters and over 900 total xp earned. That's alot of bonuses to remember.

[Nathanael Love]

Zachary Davis wrote:

I would also like the boon slotting system from starfinder to make its way over to PFE 2.0.

I actually hate the boon slotting system.

It seems like the surest way to NEVER use any of your boons you earn from scenarios.

You can only have a few available, so only the "most" useful ones- most reusable, most often applicable will ever be slotted, and even fewer boons will be used/crossed off than before.

And if you have a race (or other character build boon) does it count against the boons you get to slot?

If I earn and get a Aasimar (or whatever) race boon, does that character I use it on then play permanently down a boon slot for the privilege of being that race?

[Terminalmancer]

Pirate Rob wrote:

Terminalmancer wrote:

Why? I actually enjoy #2! Also I don't mind #3. It's fun being able to identify specific scenarios based on the bonuses. Reminds me of all the adventures that character has been on. If we'd have kept the existing PFS system I would have been fine with it. :)

I mean, we get enough power boosts as it is. Prestige purchasing is really powerful!

How do you remember all of the niche bonuses?

I'm sure I'm super far right on the bell curve of how much PFS played but I've got 45 characters and over 900 total xp earned. That's alot of bonuses to remember.

The static things are easy enough. I don't remember 'em, I write 'em down on my character sheet in the skill modifiers section! And there aren't as many as you'd think in my experience. Granted, I don't always remember the checkbox things--I don't write those down on the sheet usually. But I have them in case something bad happens and I have to flip through chronicles to check, but I've only had that happen a few times in my playing career.

Can't do that with boon slotting, though, because those change and you don't have them unless you flip through all your chronicles every scenario. I've gone through three systems trying to make boon slotting work for me and I just can't make it not suck for me.

Remembering didn't work. Flipping through chronicles just sucks. The boons tend to be a lot wordier so putting them on a notecard didn't work, I filled that up almost immediately. Piece of paper didn't work. Too much writing for each boon plus that got filled up real fast. I don't want to go to custom-printed business cards with tiny text... that's too much work for me to go through. I'm not sure what to do, but I'm going to be really sad if boon slotting hits PFS2 too. I just want to be able to write things down on my character sheet once and be done with them... and if it's a situational thing, I just want to be able to show a chronicle sheet, not go through an extra two or three steps for each thing. =/

I get, though, that a lot of people are willing to put a lot more work into this than I am and it works out for them. I just find dealing with the boon slotting system increasingly unpleasant. It's a big problem with SFS for me.

[Blake's Tiger]

Nathanael Love wrote:

And if you have a race (or other character build boon) does it count against the boons you get to slot?

If I earn and get a Aasimar (or whatever) race boon, does that character I use it on then play permanently down a boon slot for the privilege of being that race?

Um... as it works in SFS, there is a boon slot (Personal) dedicated to that, so you're not "down" a boon slot for using it. You can't slot 'Legacy Race - Dwarf' and 'Skittermander' at the same time, but that's the same as not being able to apply two race chronicles in PFS now.

[BigNorseWolf]

The idea with slotted personal boons (one exists now) is that you can be a weird race or a mutant just not a mutant weird race. Kind of like you can be a were or a vampire or an alien but a werewolf vampire alien is just getting a little silly.

[Brent Bowser]

My biggest issue with slotted boons is when there is an inability to slot a Breath of Life or cheaper Resurrection boon on my race boon character. I've put in time prepping games and money buying the product to run the game. My reward was the ability to play a character players can't. When it dies, I have more invested in that character than a usual character.

Given the new rules set, race doesn't really matter anymore. Everyone is more balanced. It's not a matter where everyone plays an Aasimar because they have the best advantages over every other race. I'd like to see more races just opened up for general play because they fit the ancestry template.

I'd like to see, as far as conventions are concerned, access to items similar to the current charity boons. Perhaps some different animal companion advancements, archetypes, magical items that increase in power as you level up and invest more resonance into them. Perhaps even different factions with their own vanities.

Another thing I'd like to see is a GM boon on scenario chronicle sheets, a boon or system in place that is granted when a person GMs the scenario. It could be something like additional loot or a fraction of a feat (i.e. 1/6 of a Skill feat, so 6 games GMed would equate into a bonus skill feat). The Regional Support Program has helped encourage folks to step up and GM. I don't know if my idea would replace or add on to the RSP.

[Tonya Woldridge]

Locking this thread.

Commentary is moved to the blog discussing Boon Updates